Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Metal melting propane furnace construction

Metal melting propane furnace construction

axehandle - 5-5-2004 at 12:07

I just had one of those once-a-year ideas.

Imagine dental casting cement (phosphate bonded cement). It's retains most of its strength when dehydrated and the shrinkage is only about 0.5% -- and it's good for casting gold, which means it can easily handle a propane flame.

Then image mixing it with perlite (a volcanic mineral made up of mostly air), the second-to-none-except-vermiculite-or vaccuum insulator.

Guess who's going to buy a 25kg sack of phosphate bonded cement tomorrow?

I'll use this thread for documenting my new furnace construction process.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Polverone]

Marvin - 5-5-2004 at 22:09

According to a random webpage, expanded perlite softens at 871-1093°C.

Introducing closed pore minerals or air bubbles into the cement sounds like a good way to make your kiln explode when you fire it.

Whats wrong with ordinary firebrick?

Hermes_Trismegistus - 6-5-2004 at 01:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Marvin
According to a random webpage, expanded perlite softens at 871-1093°C.

Pearlite seems like a good choice, I'm sure the phosphate cement matrix will hold the soft beads in place and they'll reharden.

As for the vermiculite, I don't know about the insulation properties of the stuff, but it'll absorb water like nobody's business..

In masonry walls pearlite was used, cheap like borsht and repelled water like the anus of a duck.

Explode!?

axehandle - 6-5-2004 at 05:57

Quote:

Introducing closed pore minerals or air bubbles into the cement sounds like a good way to make your kiln explode when you fire it.

That's funny, my previous furnace has been operated for months without exploding.... besides, the cement is permeable to gasses when dehydrated. It's used for casting jewelry and dental pieces.

Ooooooooh..... I really should get a car.... I just carried a 23kg floppy sack of phosphate bonded cement home..... my back.... my arms.... and wait! I haven't eaten today! Perhaps I should do that.

Edit1: Then it's off to IKEA to buy that lidded bucket thingy.... I feel like I'm going to faint.

Edit2:

Quote:

Whats wrong with ordinary firebrick?

Nothing, but I want a circular furnace intersection. Btw, some firebricks actually contain perlite, I read it somewhere yesterday.

[Edited on 2004-5-6 by axehandle]

[Edited on 2004-5-6 by axehandle]

4s2 - 6-5-2004 at 08:35

What does your old furnace look like? If you use brick I assume you just stacked bricks into a box. If so, what did you use to insulate the joints?

I built a cheapo box for $12 from the brick shop, and surrounded it on all sides with quarter inch steel plate. I was contemplating making a new one that would heat better. This sounds interesting. keep us updated.

My old furnace

axehandle - 6-5-2004 at 09:53

It looked like this:

The outer shell is a mild steel waste bin. The refractory was a mix I developed myself incorporating ideas from many others. Basically it's fireproof cement, bentonite and perlite. The burner is stuck in through a tangentially aligned steel pipe at the bottom of the inside hollow cylinder.

The new one will use almost the same design, but it will be equipped with a hinged lid, it will be larger (much larger), and I will use a different refractory composition. I'm going to use this investment cement: http://www.srs-ltd.co.uk/invest.html
together with perlite, the perlite being packed together maximally. Mostly air, so to speak.

I'll use the same home-built burner, it's documented here: http://species8472.dyndns.org/burner/burner.html

rikkitikkitavi - 6-5-2004 at 10:26

what is wrong with the present refractory?
perlite + fire proof cement which itself could withstand atleast 1200 C?

/rickard

axehandle - 6-5-2004 at 10:32

Quote:

what is wrong with the present refractory?
perlite + fire proof cement which itself could withstand atleast 1200 C?

It takes a week to cure and dry, and is expensive (fire proof cement is actually quite expensive in large quantities). Also, it develops cracks after months of (ab)use. Finally, it's a horrible mess to blend by hand.

The new refractory will only need 90 minutes to cure, and then it just has to be dehydrated. And I believe it can withstand temperatures up to 2000C, someone told me something about casting platinum using it (as a mold).

Edit: NO, i stand corrected. It can only take 1400 or so... but that's enough for my purposes.

Edit2: To give you all an impression of the size of the soon-to-be furnace (I'm right now experimenting with mixing the cement with water-soaked perlite), I present this picture. I am about 1.75m tall and quite sturdy, weighing in at about 82kg. It sure is one big bucket!

[Edited on 2004-5-6 by axehandle]

[Edited on 2004-5-6 by axehandle]

Vibrator.

axehandle - 6-5-2004 at 14:23

To cast this, I'll need a vibrator that can shake the bucket when it weighs about 30kg. Any ideas? I'm in need of some help, my creativeness quota for today is exceeded....

BromicAcid - 6-5-2004 at 14:32

Take a large motor and put something on the turn shaft that is unevenly weighted, it will vibrate at high speed, experiment with different speeds and weight dispersions for the best results. Heavily wound tape works well for fine tuning.

axehandle - 6-5-2004 at 15:48

Quote:

Take a large motor and put something on the turn shaft that is unevenly weighted, it will vibrate at high speed, experiment with different speeds and weight dispersions for the best results. Heavily wound tape works well for fine tuning.

Thank you. That will be easy.

Some success.

axehandle - 7-5-2004 at 02:28

The hard thing is finding the right water ratio, since soaked perlite oversaturates the cement mix with water. But I think I'm on the right track with batch #5:

Edit: I'm off for the weekend now. No updates until Monday...

[Edited on 2004-5-7 by axehandle]

OK, conclusions.

axehandle - 9-5-2004 at 13:44

1) The dehydrated mix of phosphate cement and perlite was the best refractory material I've ever held in my hand. A block 15mm thick could be put on a 2500W hotplate at full blast for 40 minutes and still feel only lukewarm at it's top.

2) The same material breaks when a fly lands on it, or when the tide shifts.

Conclusion: It can only be used if protected by a layer of another material preserving its structural integrity. Such as, e.g., a fireclay chimney pipe in a metal bucket, refractory cast into the "outer shell".

But I'm not going to bother. I'll use the standard: Portland cement, bentonite, perlite and water. Perhaps a little bit of sand as well.

Lesson learned: Bright ideas are often not.

OK

axehandle - 12-5-2004 at 06:48

The last needed part for the new furnace is in my hands: A 15 litre thin, tall bucket (actually a plastic trashbin) to be used as the inside mold.

Expect a Sturmangriff of pictures tonight.

Step 1) Here is the bentonite, mixed with water. Actually it's a water suspension of kitty litter (mostly bentonite). It looks like someone has had a severe case of some stomach illness....

Step 2) The outer shell and its lid. Here is a panorama image of the bucket with its now hinged lid:

And here is a closeup of the lid. Those 18 angle irons will hold the lids refractory block in place. To cast it, I'll simply surround the circle of irons with a plastic strip and pour (with the lid horisontal, upside down). There's already a PP pipe in the middle to form the top vent.

Another closeup of the lid, hinges temporarily removed so I can cast the refractory for both furnace and lid simultaneously:

Here it is, the whole bucket with its lid closed:

I have to take a break now, my back is hurting like hell (yes, I have a very bad back).

[Edited on 2004-5-12 by axehandle]

Phew!

axehandle - 12-5-2004 at 15:12

All done. But a word of advise: don't mix concrete by hand:

This is really gonna hurt tomorrow....

Edit: It's dripping pus and blood.... seems I got a really nasty alkaline burn from the calcium hydroxide in the cement....

[Edited on 2004-5-13 by axehandle]

caustic burns

Magpie - 12-5-2004 at 18:19

Your total dedication to your projects is astounding! You have replaced vulture as my idol.

But seriously, I'm sorry to hear of your caustic burns. Take good care to allow healing as well as possible.

When a young man I was helping to poor a concrete slab. I was wearing rubber boots but the wet concrete worked its way in between my legs, just below the knees (in front), and the boots. As a result of the abrasion/caustic I had permanent scars that didn't disappear for decades.

axehandle - 12-5-2004 at 18:23

Thank you. BromicAcid suggested vinegar, but since I didn't have any I mixed a VERY dilute HCl (aq) solution and dipped my hands in that. That, followed by thorough cleaning and applying an acidic hand lotion have helped, it seems. The pus has almost stopped coming and it doesn't hurt as much anymore.

4s2 - 12-5-2004 at 22:40

while working on with my quest to find out more and more about thermit welding... I found out that the crucibles used to withstand the heat of the reactions of Fe3O4+Al (apparently this combination burns at 3 times the temp that Fe203+Al burns at) used Magnesite(MgCO3). (shelled by regular steel)

I also read in an old Metallurgy book from 1914, that dolomite (MgCa(CO3)2) was used in furnaces to retain heat required to smelt steel.

My geology friend(GF) says that neither is especialy difficult to find/extract if you know what to look for, however you may need to find a way to bind the dolomite particles together) I dont know why I didnt ask my GF this before about refractory materials... duh.

bucket of doom

4s2 - 12-5-2004 at 22:46

on another note... What is that bucket made out of? rather... thats not galvanized is it?

axehandle - 13-5-2004 at 02:14

It's galvanized alright... but the heat will never be in contact with the galv. steel, there's refractory between them ---- I know about the toxic fumes.

4s2 - 13-5-2004 at 07:45

heh thats what I said about my 2nd furnace. Zinc Oxide would fume off the sides over a long period of time.

What do you think about using Magnesite? I will try to do this *adds another project to his warboard*

axehandle - 13-5-2004 at 09:18

My old furnace was galvanized too. No zinc oxide there.... my refractory is pretty good.

I'm wondering how dangerous it really is, after all it's used in white paint. It's probably the risk of silicosis that's the danger, which could be averted by wearing breating protection...

Or, one could simply sand off the zinc, or remove it with HCl.

Organikum - 13-5-2004 at 09:48

Remove it with NaOH. This will take the zinc away but wont attack the iron so bad as HCl does. If you want to use HCl, use it in diluted form - 5% to 10%.

ho, ho, ho...

axehandle - 24-5-2004 at 09:14

My hand looks as if it will be healed in about a week. I'm testing my (presumably failed) refractory mix now. There was a bit of a.... eeeehhh... backdraft..... so I'll have to cut my beard a bit short. The fuel/air explosion took some of it away, which was annoying but not painful.

I'll be damned.

axehandle - 24-5-2004 at 13:10

The new furnace seems to hold together. The refractory hasn't cracked yet (I'm drying it out at full blast). If only I knew what the evil fumes coming from it are. They irritate my eyes but don't seem to affect the lungs. It's probably water and perlite dust, perhaps with some ZnO added in for comic relief....

We'll see, I'm beginning to feel hope again...

Please note that I wouldn't advice anyone to repeat my experiment. My lungs are my own, I'm only risking my own health here.

If the whole thing works, I'll get a propane refill tomorrow or the next day, then it's FINALLY casting time. If I could only find a decent crucible (i.e. cast iron, not thinwalled stainless)....

Edit: Out of propane. The refractory seems fine. I'll have to let it cool down slowly, the propane didn't last long enough for all those pesky water moleculles to be driven out. More to come.

On crucibles, I have a request for comments. You see, I have this old 80mm ID, 90mm OD cast iron old sewage pipe which I found at a construction site. What if I cut off a piece, say 250mm long, and construct this:

It should work, but I feel I've missed something really obvious?

[Edited on 2004-5-24 by axehandle]

MnkyBoy - 31-5-2004 at 22:20

Good old sewage pipe...That is whay my melting pots be made of, only I welded on a 5 mm thick plate on the bottom and attached a few legs.

If you are going to be melting Al, (based on your temp range), you may concider moding your vessil a bit. Find a smaller diameter pipe about the same length as the length of your cruciable. Cap the bottom of this pipe. Drill a large diameter hole through the smaller pipe with a matching hole in the larger pipe neer the bottom. Join the two together. This way you can pour out your metal from the bottom and not have to worry about the oxide and crud that is floating on the top (in the case of Al).

Also, attach a ring or a circle at the bottom opposite the side you will be pouring out of. This will allow the use of a hook to tilt the cruciable.

You may also want to consider capping your vent coming out of the top and relocating it to the side opposite the burner input a short distance below the lid. Supposidly that is suppose to help hold in the heat.

How do you plan to make the molds for your casts? (Heard of the "Lost Foam" process? Its slicker than shit!)

Tacho - 1-6-2004 at 03:12

Won’t the iron dilatate much more than the cement? Why not ask a plumber to make threads in a piece of steel pipe and screw an end cap to it? Or just ask to solder it shut.

Ramiel - 1-6-2004 at 05:47

I am now seriously considering building a propane/air combustion furnace (to replace my butane bunsen). Axehandle, you can take this as a compliment, you make the project look very attractive

.

I had an idea last night for a modification to the furnace design (which incidentally kept me up far past my bedtime

).
If...
A = Picture
And...
B = Word
Then...
A = B x 103

<html><a href="http://www.geocities.com/xxramielxx/CAV_furnace.JPG">linkage</a></html>

//NB
- Lid not shown (just a usual lid, same X-section area as the vents).
- The crucible is to sit flush with sides of the furnace.
- Part marked 'Intake' can be to your pleasure (I love Axehandle's version, personally)

I was just trying to figure out a way to make the hot air do more 'work', as opposed to a large proportion of it just flowing around the crucible and straight out the top - without transferring heat (convection s|_|xx0r

).

Whaddaya think? old idea, wont work, good idea, too hard to cast.

Sincerely
- Ramiel

ps. I drew all that with paint, :cool:

*cracks knuckles*
pps. [edit: spellink]
ppps. [edit2: Thanks, I broke my teeth on winamp skins - doing all of them in Paint was a learning experience (I got 4 1/2 stars for one :cool:

)]
pppps. woah, geocities account suspended - link only, sorry folks.

[Edited on 1-6-2004 by Ramiel]

Off Topic, but I really couldn't help it

Saerynide - 1-6-2004 at 05:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramiel
ps. I drew all that with paint, :cool:

*cracks knuckles*
pps. [edit: spellink]

[Edited on 1-6-2004 by Ramiel]

LOL

Thats a very good paint picture btw

Edit2: Wow, winamp skins using paint??

[Edited on 1-6-2004 by Saerynide]

axehandle - 1-6-2004 at 08:34

Thank you all for your input. I'll soon redesign some concepts.

Quantum - 1-6-2004 at 19:21

Axehandle you may be interesting in these links:

http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com

The Shed: Propane Furnace

Propane funace at 1328F

The shittiest Howto on the net about propane - It sucks

I am planning to build a charcoal furnace this summer. I like charcoal because its cheap and my mom thinks that because its used in the grill its safer

I want to melt and cast Al into ingots and then work on casting in greensand and possibly build a homemade lathe from the castings.

I like this site as an example of what I want to build.

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/waygat/castingfoundrylathe/id1.html

Quantum

Ramiel - 1-6-2004 at 20:56

Ah, the homemade lathe: the virual batchelor exam of metal casting.

Ramiel - 8-6-2004 at 05:59

I went to Bunnings today and picked up a rather special deal I spied many moons ago. This stuff called <html><a href="http://www.lcainc.com/fondu.html">Ciment Fondue</a></html>. Apparently it can [easily] stand 1270oC. It had been ordered in especially for a customer, but after a long time without being collected, put out to stock - I felt kind of cruel walking out with half of his special order. >: D

I plan to test a few mixes with bentonite and pearlite prior to casting my design. Do you have any suggestions with regards to mixing ratios, people?

It says that it is ideally suited to refractory mixes. Sets in a few hours. Highly resistant to mechanical shock. I think I'm in love. :cool:

Oh, and Axehandle, you may be interested to know that it was first designed to be a refractory material resistant to sulphur oxides - of particular interest to your sulphuric acid plant methinks?

Hope this is a positive contribution to the thread after that last inane contribution. :\

- Ramiel

[edit - grammar falling apart. tired]

[Edited on 8-6-2004 by Ramiel]

axehandle - 9-6-2004 at 09:36

Quote:

I plan to test a few mixes with bentonite and pearlite prior to casting my design. Do you have any suggestions with regards to mixing ratios, people?

Don't use more perlite than 2/6 (by volume), or the refractory will be very fragile. If the cement does not contain sand, add some sand (SILICA!, else: KABOOM (small explosions leading to cracks)). As for bentonite, I don't have an exact measurement. I think my old furnace had about 1/10 (by dry volume) bentonite, but you could add it slowly until you get the right "feeling" (soft cookie dough like). It's not critical, its only job is to keep the mix together after dehydration.

Edit1: I know this thread seems to have died, but secretly I'm developing an ELECTRICAL furnace! Well, it's not so secret now, I suppose. Today I finally got the 0..15A, 220V single phase power dimmer I ordered, as well as 36m of 0.7mm Kanthal D wire (good up to 1300C) and a huge Al coolant thingie (for the thyristor dimmer).

BTW, that cement looks great! If I find a local dealer selling it I'm going for a sack...

[Edited on 2004-6-9 by axehandle]

Polverone - 9-6-2004 at 11:46

How much do you pay for electricity in Sweden? Isn't an electric furnace going to be pretty expensive to operate, compared to a gas furnace?

axehandle - 9-6-2004 at 12:14

Quote:

How much do you pay for electricity in Sweden? Isn't an electric furnace going to be pretty expensive to operate, compared to a gas furnace?

Currently I pay SEK 0.7863 (== USD 0.104292) per kWh including energy taxes and VAT.

I don't know if it will be more economical than propane, but I won't have to deal with the hassles of refilling, and it's a fun project to boot!

Edit1: Here's the mold for the heating chamber. It's a spaghetti container with a 2m length of 10mm OD PVC hose spiraled around it, with electrodes made of de-zinced M6 threaded rod temporarily glued in place. Once the refractory is semi-cured, everything plastic will be removed, leaving only an empty cylinder with a spiral groove for the heating coil, and ofcourse the electrodes to provide a connection to the outside.

More pictures soon to come.

[Edited on 2004-6-9 by axehandle]

chemoleo - 9-6-2004 at 13:18

How are you going to remove the plastic? I doubt it willbe easy to remove 2m of tubing through solidified fire cement (or whatever u are using). I take it you plan to thread the heating wire through the spiral?
Then, how about the properties of the wire itself? Resistance is proportional to the length, and resistance goes up with higher temperatures. Have you accounted for it? I am asking because there is a chance that you either overheat the wire (meaning that the resistance is not high enough, thus the wire should be longer), or that that you don't achieve high temps due to too high a resistance. But I guess you looked up the specs of the wire.
Then - how are you going to avoid the fire cement from cracking where the wire is? The heat distribution here is everything but homogenous, and there is again a good chance that the cement cracks directly around the wire...

I thought myself of making a nice 'n big electric furnace - but those were the problems i always thought of. The way I would have gone about it would be to use tiles, with wire that doesnt contact any of the tiles directly. Thats tricky to do, I know. Things have to be insulated pretty well, and holes avoided to prevent hot air from escaping and cooling the whole thing down.

Looking at my electric muffle furnace - it is also made of tiles, with thin wire wound about them. They are all exposed to the actual heat chamber. IIRC, pottery ovens also have their wires exposed, and are made from tiles (my grandma was a pottery maker

)

At last - I would also prefer using an electric furnace. I wouldnt worry so much about the money of the electricty, but much rather I'd be concerned about safety - no flammable gases (and particularly a 50 litre gas tank), and no massive CO2/CO evolution.

axehandle - 9-6-2004 at 14:55

Quote:

How are you going to remove the plastic? I doubt it willbe easy to remove 2m of tubing through solidified fire cement (or whatever u are using). I take it you plan to thread the heating wire through the spiral?

Nope, I'm going to wait until the refractory is semi-hardened, i.e. tomorrow or perhaps tomorrow night, depends on how long it takes

, then I'm going to crack that plastic container (it's made from a hard plastic that seems very fragile), pull out the pieces and then pull out the spiraled hose. The groove will then get a "U" shape. Unfired refractory of this type doesn't get really hard until it's fired, until then it's slightly less hard than hardened gypsum, so it shouldn't pose any problem, and if it does, I'll burn the little bugger out with a slow charcoal fire....

Quote:

Then, how about the properties of the wire itself? Resistance is proportional to the length, and resistance goes up with higher temperatures. Have you accounted for it? I am asking because there is a chance that you either overheat the wire (meaning that the resistance is not high enough, thus the wire should be longer), or that that you don't achieve high temps due to too high a resistance. But I guess you looked up the specs of the wire.

All calculated and accounted for. The coil will be adapted to a maximum current of 15A, and I'm going to use the power regulator in the inserted picture to regulate the current. I'll have to steal power from the stove to do this, all the other fuses are 10A....

BTW, this wire is made for applications like this. It actually gets a protective coating of Al2O3 after a few firings (it contains Fe, Cr and Al). It's Kanthal type D wire, good upto 1300C, incidentally used in pottery ovens

. According to the specification, it has an almost constant resistance within its normal usage range (room temp.... 1300 C).

Quote:

Then - how are you going to avoid the fire cement from cracking where the wire is? The heat distribution here is everything but homogenous, and there is again a good chance that the cement cracks directly around the wire...

Aah -- that's where the expensive power regulator comes in -- I'm going to start at 1A and go up very slowly to dehydrate the refractory without cracks. I'll know it's done when the steaming stops.

Quote:

I thought myself of making a nice 'n big electric furnace - but those were the problems i always thought of. The way I would have gone about it would be to use tiles, with wire that doesnt contact any of the tiles directly. Thats tricky to do, I know. Things have to be insulated pretty well, and holes avoided to prevent hot air from escaping and cooling the whole thing down.

What about sealing with fireproof cement, the kind used when building indoor hearths? It's good upto 1400 C. About holes: I will have one in the (hinged) lid, about 20mm in diametre, covered with a small plate of borosilicate glass at the top to peep through.

Quote:

Looking at my electric muffle furnace - it is also made of tiles, with thin wire wound about them. They are all exposed to the actual heat chamber. IIRC, pottery ovens also have their wires exposed, and are made from tiles (my grandma was a pottery maker )

Yup, I got my idea from a pottery oven

Quote:

At last - I would also prefer using an electric furnace. I wouldnt worry so much about the money of the electricty, but much rather I'd be concerned about safety - no flammable gases (and particularly a 50 litre gas tank), and no massive CO2/CO evolution.

You've read my mind. I was getting very nervous around my 10kg propane bottle, and tired of refilling it. I'll still build a propane furnace though, for larger melts. But after my beard-singing accident, I'm a bit shy to use propane.

I think I got the refractory right this time, but I won't post the exact proportion of ingredients until I know it works, to save anyone from repeating any of my mistakes. I have recorded the exact amounts this time...

Pictures

Power regulator, back (the regulator is a thyristor based module screwed onto a humongous heatsink):

The front, the controller knob is visible in the middle:

Edit1: Oh, and I should mention that my girlfriend Anna helped me mix the refractory.

[Edited on 2004-6-9 by axehandle]

har-dened!

axehandle - 11-6-2004 at 08:51

The entire apparatus sans electrical gear:

The apparatus with the hinged lid open:

A view of the chamber, one of the electrodes for the heating coil to be placed in the spiral can be seen at the bottom:

A closeup of the peephole in the lid (the recession will be covered with a pane of borosilicate glass:

Now the refractory just needs a couple of days to fully solidify, then I'll mount the coil and the power regulator!

Refractory formula

axehandle - 12-6-2004 at 07:19

I haven't fired the refractory yet, so there is no guarantee that it will work, but I hereby announce my refractory formula in the interest of science. I've come up with the proportions myself through trial and error.

This is for approximately 16 litres of refractory:

4.8 litres of silica sand
7.2 litres of portland cement
7.2 litres of expanded perlite
1.5 kg of bentonite powder
10 litres of water

Arrgghh!!

axehandle - 14-6-2004 at 04:55

Why do you always run out of M6 nuts when you need them?!?!?! I only need 2 more to finish the furnace.... sigh.

Tacho - 15-6-2004 at 04:00

Happy to see you have gone electrical! Will cost you some more but it’s quite safer.

Just for future reference: My experience with high power triacs is not a happy one, but I’ve built the circuits myself. The worst is that, when they go “kaput”, they release full power! A $0,01 old fashion fuse may save you a headache.

The power regulator you bought seems reliable but, if it proves otherwise, think about on-off regulation. Sort of a Pulse Width Modulation with alternating current and a 0,1 hertz frequency. I did that using a 555 CI and a fat relay. It’s no good as light dimmer, but makes no difference in controlling the heat of a coil.

Nice casting of refractory. Congratulations to Anna!

axehandle - 15-6-2004 at 06:55

Quote:

Happy to see you have gone electrical! Will cost you some more but it’s quite safer.

That's the general idea. As I wrote a time ago, I had a fuel-air explosion in my newest propane furnace that cost me half my beard. That's the main reason I'm going electrical.

Quote:

Just for future reference: My experience with high power triacs is not a happy one, but I’ve built the circuits myself. The worst is that, when they go “kaput”, they release full power! A $0,01 old fashion fuse may save you a headache.

Yes, I've been concerned about that. More to protect the regulator than the coil -- the latter is easily replaced. But the only danger to the regulator is overheating, am I right? (I'm thinking about adding a 220V fan I have lying around to that huge heatsink.)

Quote:

The power regulator you bought seems reliable but, if it proves otherwise, think about on-off regulation. Sort of a Pulse Width Modulation with alternating current and a 0,1 hertz frequency. I did that using a 555 CI and a fat relay. It’s no good as light dimmer, but makes no difference in controlling the heat of a coil.

Yeah, I considered that but in my experience, when I build a circuit, it always ends up being more expensive than buying a premade one... But I could easily hack together a solid state relay with a 555 based PWM circuit --- I've done it before, for an ignition coil driver circuit.

Quote:

Nice casting of refractory. Congratulations to Anna!

Thank you. I will relay the praise.

Tacho - 15-6-2004 at 08:16

Quote:

Originally posted by axehandle
(snip) But the only danger to the regulator is overheating, am I right? (snip)

I don't know if it's overheating. TRIACs seem to just fail for no apparent reason...

Quote:

(snip)... But I could easily hack together a solid state relay with a 555 based PWM circuit (snip)

Oops! No. "Solid state" means a TRIAC. I meant a good old fashioned relay going "click-clack" in a... say... 10 seconds cycle controled by a 555. "on" varying from 0 to 10 seconds and "off" (therefore)from 10 seconds to zero.

Aaww! Never mind. That power control of yours seems to be a commercial item whose project has probably been tested to exhaustion!

axehandle - 15-6-2004 at 08:38

I certainly hope so... it's supposedly good up to 15A, but I'm only going to use 13A tops or so.

I finally got the M6 nuts. Now it's dinner time, then it's hellfire time. I have to dehydrate the furnace very slowly though, it will probably take 10 hours.....

Edit: I didn't know that solid state relays were triac based. Thanks for pointing it out.

Ediit2: You know when you get a huge blister because of coil winding, and then cut off the skin to expediate the healing process? Don't accidentally get 30% HCl in the wound, it hurts. The nuts are de-zinced though..

Edit3: Coil mounted....

[Edited on 2004-6-15 by axehandle]

Swedish Power !!!!

axehandle - 15-6-2004 at 10:45

IT WORKS !!!!

Lid open:

Peephole (quick and lousy shot to avoid barbecuing the camera, the heat from the hole is too bad even for my hand):

Edit1: OK, I've been dehydrating the refractory for about 5 hours, and will continue tomorrow (there's a lot of water to drive out). The innermost layer seems dehydrated though -- it continued to glow red for a while after I turned off the power. This is good news since I'm only using 7A or so-so. Using the full 13A the coil is designed for should make the inside glow yellow!

[Edited on 2004-6-15 by axehandle]

Saerynide - 16-6-2004 at 00:05

Very nice

maxke - 16-6-2004 at 02:08

Thumbs up !

axehandle - 16-6-2004 at 03:31

Thank you!

Now I'm going to document the entire process and call the document "Electrical Furnace HOWTO". Well, perhaps not now, but later today....

Dehydration is commenced again, this time I'm going to run it until completion, then I'll test melting some Al in a phosphate cement bowl.

The power regulator+heatsink mount (believe me, that heatsink is not overkill, the regulator would fry without it!):

[Edited on 2004-6-16 by axehandle]

Tacho - 16-6-2004 at 05:33

Have you tested it with Al? How does it compare? I mean, the time it takes to melt it.

Once I worked in a factory where they had this "aluminum pot". It was just like yours. It just stood there all day with molten al inside. Must have been well insulated. When you needed some, you lift the lid and picked it with a "spoon"(my english fails, the thing you use to serve soup). They were developing a new design for an eletric motor.

axehandle - 16-6-2004 at 06:06

Quote:

Have you tested it with Al? How does it compare? I mean, the time it takes to melt it.

It's not dehydrated yet, but the 1st thing I'm going to test is how long it takes to melt a known mass of Al at a known current.

Quote:

Once I worked in a factory where they had this "aluminum pot". It was just like yours. It just stood there all day with molten al inside. Must have been well insulated. When

I wish my refractory was that good.

Quote:

you needed some, you lift the lid and picked it with a "spoon"(my english fails, the thing you use to serve soup). They were developing a new design for an eletric motor.

A "scoop"?

The_Davster - 16-6-2004 at 06:26

I think Tacho was refering to a Ladle.

Arrgghhh.....

axehandle - 16-6-2004 at 06:44

*fetching dictionary*

No... "scoop" is defined as (among other things) "1. a ladle or ladlelike utensil, ... " in Webster's College Dictionary.

But I've learnt a new word, ladle. Thank you, I like to learn a new thing at least once per day.

Edit1: The furnace is almost dehydrated. The steam has almost stopped evolving and the inside of the chamber walls are glowing orange-hot!

[Edited on 2004-6-16 by axehandle]

Tacho - 16-6-2004 at 08:52

Both words are new to me. Learned something.

By the way, the "aluminum pot" was connected to power all the time, just didn't seem to consume much.

axehandle - 16-6-2004 at 09:03

Oooooh, how I wish I could come up with a furnace design where most of the outside is separated from the inside by a vaccuum! That would be the holy grail, I think.....

Topic continued in thread
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2171

[Edited on 2004-6-16 by axehandle]