Sciencemadness Discussion Board

cheddite

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markx - 9-1-2014 at 11:59

Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  

Just drink some Vodka, the Russian will be just flowing out of you then. :D


Ya...the cuss words!
The long ones we call the "triplet state"....when you combine 3 curse words into one awsome one :D :D

Hennig Brand - 9-1-2014 at 15:47

I am learning more about Russian culture all the time. :)

Didn't know about the OCR thing actually until earlier today, as I don't do a lot of translation usually. The few programs I tried first didn't seem to be able to deal with that particular text. I just found a method that works to translate the document. Convert the pages to jpeg images, then load images into this Russian OCR text extractor. http://www.i2ocr.com/free-online-russian-ocr
The obtained text can be copy/pasted into a translator. I used Google Translate, but there are probably better ones. I can get the meaning out of most of the translation, but it's not exactly perfect English.

[Edited on 9-1-2014 by Hennig Brand]

Hennig Brand - 10-1-2014 at 05:35

Quote: Originally posted by papaya  
MNT is toxic so no wonders on its bad effects.


It is definitely toxic, but in my case the effects are very rapid from just a tiny whiff of MNT vapor. From reading, I think people’s sensitivity to a lot of these chemicals varies wildly. I have seen several sources talk about first determining a new munitions plant employee's sensitivity to the chemical(s) involved (a nitroaromatic of some sort) before deciding if they could in fact work there.

Pard - 10-1-2014 at 14:16

I thought I had already posted this but cannot find the post. It is regading a cheddite that uses ammonium perchlorate. It recommends the following:

Ammonium perchlorate (powdered) - 9 ubw

Petroleum jelly - 1 ubw OR
Castor oil - 0.9 ubw OR
Kerosene - 0.9 ubw OR
Diesel oil - 0.9 ubw OR
Cooking oil (any type) - 0.9 ubw

I feel diesal or kerosene will yield best results as it's quite flamable on it's own. I also have dextrin and guar gum, so I may try add a small amount for to binding.

Hennig Brand - 10-1-2014 at 21:17

Do you have any references? Was there any information from those references about the qualities of the above mixture? Try to resist simply posting "recipes".

Zyklon-A - 11-1-2014 at 10:02

Would adding a few% of Al sensitize it enough that it can be set of from a flash powder?

Bot0nist - 11-1-2014 at 10:20

I really doubt it. You will need a fast primary and maybe even a bit of secondary in a well made cap to work with cheddite. Flash powder wont even wake up the very sensitive secondaries like ETN reliably. Flash powder is just way to slow.

Zyklon-A - 16-1-2014 at 07:49

Can ETN detonate cheddite, if so how much would be necessary?

Bot0nist - 16-1-2014 at 08:10

Yes it can. That depends in how much, and of what kind of "cheddite" you are talking about. Different compositions vary in sensitivity greatly.

Zyklon-A - 16-1-2014 at 09:32

I'm thinking, just KClO3-Petroleum jelly 9-1 ratio. I've never made ETN before, but I can, I'll make a couple grams I guess.... How long can I store it, outside of course.

Bot0nist - 16-1-2014 at 12:13

That depends on your neutralization and recrystalizations. As well as inclided stabilizers. Please read up thoroughly on this compound. Quicksilver has posted a lot of good Info about it in the past.

Gargamel - 2-11-2014 at 04:05

Hey guys,

I've got a stack of homemade chlorate here and I'm ready for some experimentation :)
There are a few thing about those cheddites bother me, maybe you can enlighten me a little.

The amount of fuel.
It seems like the amount of fuel is independent from stoichiometry, but rather on the fact how wet the stuff is?
Common mixtures for Na and K Chlorate are interchangeable. The extra oxygen of the Na salt does not seem to play any role here...?
According to Urbanski 10% seem to be optimal, but less is more easily detonated.

What's your experience?


Do cheddites benefit from small amounts of metal?
Locking at AN mixtures, even 2% Dark Al in mixtures like GRG1 ect. make a huge difference.
I want a higher Vdet, thermobaric afterburn effects aren't important.


Critical diameter
Any opinion about how slender a charge could be for small boreholes?
Last time I did some testing in 20mm plastic pipes with 9% paraffine oil and detonation was transmitted over 200mm, the damage on the 2mm iron plate was constant over the hole path.

I wonder how small one can go, and see above, if some aluminium would help...?



Large crystal formation
Vaseline seems to recrystalise the chlorate over time creating large crystals and insensitive cheddite.

Is there reason to believe that this happen with paraffine oil too?


[Edited on 2-11-2014 by Gargamel]

forgotpassword - 2-11-2014 at 08:32

Success! 165 grams of Cheddite(Vaseline and Potassium Chlorate9:1) with a 3g ETN booster detonated just half an hour ago.

<iframe sandbox width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/tRBT-RuQB3I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<a href="http://imgur.com/VDyteWz"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/VDyteWz.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

[Edited on 2-11-2014 by forgotpassword]

failure

Laboratory of Liptakov - 2-11-2014 at 12:29

This photo does not say anything about the performance of explosives. It was a detonation? Or just a deflagration? The bomb did not explode. I see sprayed chlorate. 165 grams of explosive with a VoD 3000 m/s must break the chair concrete curb. This is a failure. No success.
LL

forgotpassword - 2-11-2014 at 13:19

It was propped up against the curb, that is not sprayed chlorate, that is bits of concrete/ tarmac/ dirt that was sprayed onto the road.
Watch the video again and tell me that was not a detonation.
You obviously do not know what you are talking about, how could that have possibly been a deflagration?


[Edited on 2-11-2014 by forgotpassword]

Metacelsus - 2-11-2014 at 13:39

It does look weak for 165 grams of explosive. I agree with LL on this one, in the absence of more conclusive evidence (the video doesn't tell much).

Also, blowing up roads generally isn't a good idea (although if it's a private road and you own it then I guess it's OK).


[Edited on 2-11-2014 by Cheddite Cheese]

forgotpassword - 2-11-2014 at 13:51

I'm not sure then, it looks and it definitely sounded like a full detonation to me.
I can't see no reason why it wouldn't detonate.

You may be underestimating the strength of that concrete curb, look how thick it is.
I used a straw filled with ETN and a little bit of SADS to initiate the ETN.
Then I placed 3 grams of ETN in some Al foil and placed the straw cap in and wrapped the ETN around it tightly.

The actual cheddite was a 9:1 ratio of Potassium Chlorate to Vaseline. The Vaseline was placed in a 600ml beaker and melted and the potassium chlorate placed in and manually mixed for 20 minutes.
I placed the cheddite into a balloon as seen here:
<a href="http://imgur.com/yAtLG0R"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/yAtLG0R.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>


Metacelsus - 2-11-2014 at 14:10

I saw the crack in the curb, but I still am not sure that the cheddite had a full detonation. Are you sure that the noise of detonation wasn't just the noise of the booster detonating? Even small detonations are very loud. (I can't tell myself because shockwaves can't come out of speakers.)

3 grams of ETN might work for confined cheddite, but without confinement it may not be powerful enough. What was your potassium chlorate particle size? Generally, the finer, the more sensitive. Also, where was the initiator in the ball?

forgotpassword - 2-11-2014 at 14:19

I don't think so, I've done detonations of just a couple of grams of ETN before and it was not as loud as that was, it definitely did not create that big cloud of smoke.

I grinded up the Potassium Chlorate in a mortar before mixing and I cut a hole in the balloon, dug a little hole for my initiator, placed it in and pushed far in and then I squeezed the Cheddite together using the palm of my hands. Pretty confined.

Here is 200g of Cheddite another guy did, same type of cheddite as mine, it looks very similar to my explosion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBq13OHQFnU&t=4m40s

weak

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-11-2014 at 03:44


Forgot: The preparation is good. Central initiation good. However: All the work done only 3 grams ETN. The 3 grams ETN brought to detonation by about 10% cheddite. Max 20 g detonated VOD 3000 m / s. Everything else was a deflagration. It is a pity application 3G ETN. Another thing: You need to get ( have, used) NH4NO3. This is the foundation. Cheddite production are dangerous. And they have a weak performance. This is clearly seen.
LL

deformator

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-11-2014 at 05:59

If you can, do this:

deformator.jpg - 63kB

forgotpassword - 3-11-2014 at 14:22

I thought 3g of ETN would be more than sufficient to set it off.
What do you suggest using?

I don't have access to Ammonium Nitrate, terrorist organisations use it in fertiliser bombs here.
I don't think my cheddite would deflagrade without strong heating, I have tested this before.
Where are you getting that number from, 3000m/s? That could be for other cheddites such as Kerosene and KClO3 or as you said NH4NO3.

caterpillar - 3-11-2014 at 17:44

Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  
I am learning more about Russian culture all the time. :)

Didn't know about the OCR thing actually until earlier today, as I don't do a lot of translation usually. The few programs I tried first didn't seem to be able to deal with that particular text. I just found a method that works to translate the document. Convert the pages to jpeg images, then load images into this Russian OCR text extractor. http://www.i2ocr.com/free-online-russian-ocr
The obtained text can be copy/pasted into a translator. I used Google Translate, but there are probably better ones. I can get the meaning out of most of the translation, but it's not exactly perfect English.

[Edited on 9-1-2014 by Hennig Brand]


My friend maniac scientist Misha (this person made NG in large amounts) recommended translator from Microsoft. he told me that translators from Russian to English generally work better than opposite ones. I can only say that I never saw good translation to Russian, made with the aid of an automatic translator.

Hennig Brand - 4-11-2014 at 01:47

I think you are right about the translators; at least from what I have seen.


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=19712&...

What is linked to is something I posted back on page three of this thread. The potassium chlorate and Vaseline Cheddite is not an ideal explosive like TNT and most of the other military explosives. Comparing a Cheddite (or ANFO) to the more ideal explosives is comparing apples to oranges. Many things effect the detonation velocity of a Cheddite. Cheddites in general have very low brisance and pore shattering ability, in comparison to modern military explosives, even when they do detonate properly. With strong confinement, like what is typically found in a bore hole, Cheddite explosives can do a lot of useful work. However, because of their low brisance produce very poor results when used on hard targets unconfined. It is possible that the un-ideal Cheddite being tested detonated at a velocity considerably less than 3000m/s as well.

Cheddites are a poor practical choice if better explosives are available, but there have been places and times when not much else was available. I find Cheddites interesting.


[Edited on 4-11-2014 by Hennig Brand]

cheddite

Laboratory of Liptakov - 4-11-2014 at 09:26

Henning is right. An attempt was made. Everything is in the picture. Cheddite is weak explosive. Paraffin is better of grease. I used the soot from the chimney. Paraffin dissolve in clear gasoline. When 40C. Add KClO3 + fine soot. Shaken. Pour into the pan and dried at 50C. Hand pressed the tube. Full detonation from No.10. But poor performance on the mat, sheet metal. Below is a comparison composition based on AP. Another needless words.
LL

cheddite.jpg - 384kB

forgotpassword - 4-11-2014 at 10:16

I don't mean to come across as offensive but I don't really understand what you are saying.
Paraffin is better of grease?
Are these two different compositions?
Is KClO3 and Paraffin better than Vaseline?

Hennig Brand - 4-11-2014 at 11:34

LL, the stated density of your Cheddite charge is extremely low. Normally for these types of chlorate and hydrocarbon Cheddites the density is much closer to 1.3g/cc than it is to your stated value of 0.65g/cc.

forgotpassword, I doubt there would be much difference in explosive performance between when Paraffin and Vaseline are used. Paraffin wax and Vaseline are both mixtures of heavy hydrocarbons that come off near the bottom when crude oil is fractionally distilled. I suppose there could be some physical property differences that might be important, melting point, etc, but, chemically, as fuels they are very similar.

PHILOU Zrealone - 4-11-2014 at 12:11

I just want to tell you all that Cheddites made only, with as fuel counterpart, paraffine, vaseline, wax or alcanic fuels are:
-not very powerful
-not very dense
-not very sensitive

--> @Forgotpassword
Especially if not wel confined (confinement by hand pressing, selfconfinement by 165g, and rubber balloon is highly not efficient confinement for such insensitive mixes)
Best confinement is acheived in borehole or inside Iron-steel pipe 4mm thickness and 2-5cm diameter!

I have made Cheddites in my young years (20 years ago) for new year eves... with NaClO3 and KClO3 but the fuel counterpart was nitrobenzene, dinitrobenzene, dinitrotoluenes oil, nitro and dinitronaphtalene waxes.
Those fuels are more interesting because they contain more carbon and less hydrogen, their density is higher, they contain some active oxygen what allows a reduction of the amount of chlorate and inert resulting salt (NaCl or KCl); and last but not least those fuel are active explosive in the case of dinitrocompounds...
They display VOD in the range 5-7 km/s and are much more sensitive to initiation...but they stil need strong confinement for correct detonation. The NaClO3 and KClO3 are sometimes porous prilled like NH4NO3 for fuel impregnation.

forgotpassword - 4-11-2014 at 12:24

I will do another test when my chlorate cell makes enough.
I will use your improvements. I will put the Vaseline and Chlorate in a blender to thoroughly mix the two components.

I will not however put cheddite in an iron pipe as I am not looking to make a pipe bomb, I am not sure what you mean by a borehole, but the iron pipe idea seems too dangerous.

cheddite

Laboratory of Liptakov - 4-11-2014 at 13:23

Henning Brand says: I suppose there Could be some physical property Differences That Might Be Important, melting point, etc, but, Chemically, fuels and They Are Very Similar.
That is true. Vaseline evaporate faster. Into detonation. A cool burning. It is wrong. But, this is only a small difference. My recommendation is based on limited options Forgotpass. You need to use good quality fuel. As PHILOU writes and designs. Top find or produce ammonium nitrate. Long mixing Vaseline will not help. Use a blender to mix KClO3 and fuel? Carefully.
LL

forgotpassword - 4-11-2014 at 16:58

What about Kerosene and KClO3? That may be worth a try as can be seen here:

<iframe sandbox width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/NQnyFisrAbk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Bert - 4-11-2014 at 19:17


Quote:

What about Kerosene and KClO3? That may be worth a try as can be seen here:


"Paraffin" or "paraffin oil" are British/Aussie/colonial terms for what is called Kerosene in the USA.

Thanks for link to video- I am VERY pleased to see an amateur posting on VOD measurement circuitry!

[Edited on 5-11-2014 by Bert]

full detonation

Laboratory of Liptakov - 4-11-2014 at 23:45


Perfectly processed video. Quality work. Full detonation. It is seen detonation wave. Is it possible? Thank you for this video. Forgotpassword learns quickly! A good deformation of the steel plate. Great praise before long burning fuse....:cool:
LL
Measuring the velocity of detonation is simple and ingenious. I have a lot to learn. Hats off.


[Edited on 5-11-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Hennig Brand - 5-11-2014 at 04:15

Great video!

I think at least in the North American texts that paraffin refers to paraffin wax in Cheddite compositions. Heavy petroleum oils are also used in some compositions of course though.

forgotpassword - 5-11-2014 at 08:34

I'm really sorry to say that I didn't make that video, it was just an example of Kerosene and KClO3.
Sorry to disappoint you, LL and Bert.
However, it does give good information on the VOD of Cheddite.

[Edited on 5-11-2014 by forgotpassword]

measuring

Laboratory of Liptakov - 5-11-2014 at 11:28

Nothing happens Apology accepted, this video is very informative. Measuring assembly is very simple. This is important. Just what I was looking for a long time. Digital oscilloscope and ordinary (cheap) lead wires. No optical fiber. A simple converter. Another important thing: from the curve on the screen is easy to read, where exactly subtract values​​. And even in the case where the curve will be unclear, imprecise weak (weak ionization). Yet, thank you. .....:cool:
Another thing: Intermolecular mixture (wet way) KClO3 84 + Hexamine 16 + Al flakes 2, gives about 20% higher brisance. Just tested, photo later.
LL

forgotpassword - 5-11-2014 at 12:23

Thank you for testing for us!
I do not have access to Hexamine or Aluminium Powder.

I will test KClO3 + Kerosene later.
What did your initiator consist of?

scheme

Laboratory of Liptakov - 5-11-2014 at 13:48

I use 1 g ETN / 0.2 LA. Here is a diagram of the video. Some values ​​are not readable. They are supplemented with estimates. 360 is a low resolution.
LL

scheme.jpg - 67kB

forgotpassword - 5-11-2014 at 13:57

I thought you said my 3g was not sufficient to set off my cheddite?

jpsmith123 - 5-11-2014 at 16:32

Quote: Originally posted by forgotpassword  
What about Kerosene and KClO3?


In U.S. patent #3155554, "Liquid Blanketed Chlorate Blasting Agent", Melvin Cook et al. suggest that sodium chlorate based explosives are more powerful than those using potassium chlorate. An example in the patent is 88% NaClO3 & 12% fuel oil.



Attachment: US3155554A.pdf (183kB)
This file has been downloaded 442 times

Hennig Brand - 5-11-2014 at 17:41

Sodium chlorate does make slightly more powerful explosives than potassium chlorate. Sodium atoms are much lighter than potassium atoms, so a pound of sodium chlorate contains more oxygen than a pound of potassium chlorate. However, sodium chlorate is also very hygroscopic and potassium chlorate is not. Sodium chlorate also requires much less energy to initiate its decomposition, so it generally makes much more sensitive explosives than potassium chlorate (which are already very sensitive).


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
What makes the sodium chlorate mixture more unstable?


If you can't interpret the melt points and enthalpy of formation of the various common oxidizers as signposts to the relative sensitivities of the mixtures made with them, you need to learn and keep in mind physics as it relates to explosives chemistry.

As for the melting point:

Solid with solid reactions proceed only at the contact points between particles, limiting the surface area available for reaction relative to that of a solid immersed in a liquid or gaseous reactant. To realy get things going at least one the reactants has to become a liquid or gas, allowing it to contact the COMPLETE surface area of other reactants - Hence the influence of melting point on sensitivity. Most pyrotechnic reactions really start to move around the temperature that one of the ingredients melts, generally the oxidizer. A low melting fuel like Sulfer or lactose can help provide a similar effect. How is a mixture of Sodium chlorate and Sulfer or lactose likely to behave? (Hint: use very small quantities if you want to see).

Look up the common oxidizers melt and decomposition temperatures, list them in order from low to high- Notice Sodium Chlorate has a rather low melting point, so it's going to take less energy to get the party started there.

About enthalpies of formation:

If energy was given off in the formation of a compound, you will need to provide at least that amount of energy to reverse that process-

Look at oxidizing Aluminum to Al2O3, which has a (relatively high!) enthalpy of formation of -1675.7 kJ*Mol. Lots of heat was given off there! (it also has a VERY high melting point...). Do you use it as an oxidizer???

Look at what I listed above for the chlorates:

Sodium Chlorate melts @ 248 C., enthalpy of formation -53 kJ*Mol

Potassium Chlorate melts @ 356 C., enthalpy of formation -391kJ*Mol

Do you use THEM for oxidizers? From the difference between those figures, which is going to make a more sensitive mixture, all other things being equal?

Further reading:

Conkling: Chemistry of Pyrotechnics- basic principles and theory




[Edited on 6-11-2014 by Hennig Brand]

E300

Laboratory of Liptakov - 6-11-2014 at 12:02

Tested composition: KClO3-70 + E300 (vitamin C)-30.2 + Fe2O3-1. Very good power. VoD about 3200m/s. 2 mm sheet torn. Charge 9g, hand presse. Prepare wet way. This mixture would require additional tests.
LL

Bert - 6-11-2014 at 20:46

There are a number of perchlorate based explosive patents that similarly rely on intimate mixing through dissolving fuels, oxidizer or BOTH, some of which do not even require the mixtures be dried-

This thread has long intrigued me.

Gelled Perchlorate Explosives

[Edited on 7-11-2014 by Bert]

jpsmith123 - 7-11-2014 at 09:28

Bert you might find the attached patent interesting ("Liquid and Slurry Explosives of Controlled High Sensitivity").

One of the examples is a perchlorate-based liquid explosive (which has lots of water), which detonates at 2300 m/s, and the addition of 10% of Al powder brings it up to 5300 m/s.

Attachment: US3765967.pdf (405kB)
This file has been downloaded 507 times

Etanol - 10-11-2014 at 13:16

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Tested composition: KClO3-70 + E300 (vitamin C)-30.2 + Fe2O3-1. Very good power. VoD about 3200m/s. 2 mm sheet torn. Charge 9g, hand presse. Prepare wet way. This mixture would require additional tests.
LL


Hello! I am glad that someone is interested in measuring the VoD.
It is really value you measured? Cool!
Do not expect from such mixtures.

VoD cheddite

Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-11-2014 at 03:46


It's not an exact value. These compositions will require further testing. Perhaps it is only 2,900 m / s or even 3500 m / s. If you do spherical charge such as 200g, VoD will be higher, of course. I do not know. It's just a rough estimate. I'm not a fan KClO3 + fuel. Further tests will not be repeated. Someone else can try.
LL

[Edited on 11-11-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

WARNING

Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-11-2014 at 08:15

Warning. A mixture of KClO3 + E300 can explode at any moment. Weighed only 20 grams. Do not mix, not to try.
LL

Bert - 11-11-2014 at 16:51

Did you experience an accidental explosion with the chlorate/ascorbic acid mixture?

Ascorbic acid is a fairly weak acid, but perhaps it is strong enough to generate ClO2 from chlorate in the presence of moisture, leading to spontaneous combustion/explosion?!

green ball

Laboratory of Liptakov - 12-11-2014 at 03:24

Yes, that's exactly what happens. The mixture was made wet. Nose smelled of chlorine and hydrogen chloride. The mixture became green. Established plastic. 20 g green balls.
After 5 minutes, erupted. VoD about 300 m / s. As gunpowder. The sphere was cold. There was no visible smoke. Just burst without warning. No damage was, no injuries.
LL

Bert - 12-11-2014 at 06:34

More excitement than I would want... Spare clean underwear should NOT be a necessary supply in a well run explosives testing lab!

As convenient as cheddite and the several variations on that family of mixtures may seem to those amateurs running a chlorate cell, chlorate based high explosives have been long abandoned for commercial/military use...

Lower performance, higher sensitivity, chemical reactivity issues. What's not to like!

From Hudson Maxim- Dynamite Stories


Quote:



SCATTERED



I was once called as an expert to visit a dynamite plant where a new kind of high explosive was being manufactured instead of the ordinary nitroglycerin dynamite. It consisted of a mixture of chlorate of potash, sulphur, charcoal and paraffin wax. Its inventor had given it the reassuring name of Double X Safety Dynamite. A quarry-man in a nearby town had, with his safety-ignoring habitude, attempted to load a hole with the stuff, using a crowbar as a rammer, with the result that he set off the charge, and the crowbar went through his head. This unscheduled eventuation aroused the apprehension of the president of the company, who was also its backer. He began to grow suspicious about the safety of the material. Being so much interested, he went with me on my visit of inspection. We left the train at a siding about a mile from the works, and had just started in their[137] direction when there came a sudden boom and roar, and the earth shook. Over the powder works there rose a huge column of black smoke, flaring wide into the sky. We found a great crater where the mixing house had stood. Three men were working in the building when the explosion occurred. A fortunate survivor who had left the place a moment before to go for a bucket of drinking water, was walking about the crater, apparently searching for something among the scattered remnants. As we approached him, he sadly said: “I can’t find much of the boys. I guess you’ll have to plow the ground if you want to bury them.”

bad way

Laboratory of Liptakov - 12-11-2014 at 07:22

I'm not a fan cheddite. Also, I wrote it here. Explosives based KClO3 are dangerous and weak. Further experiments will not be repeated. There are many other, more powerful and much safer mixtures. KClO3 is (like bombs) very bad way. It is better to do nothing. LL

forgotpassword - 12-11-2014 at 09:01

I tried burning a little bit of Vaselate and it did nothing, it burned a little when heated lots.
It turned molten and when I accidentally dripped a little bit of this molten cheddite onto the workarea a loud bang was heard.

packetforger - 12-11-2014 at 11:08

forgotpassword: It would really help if you said what composition your "vaselate" was...

90:10 KClO3:Vaseline does tend to burn fairly vigorously if ignited with a hot flame, once it catches it actually releases a fair amount of heat. The traditional crapbook wax/vaseline/chlorate mixture might actually be of some use as a thing for starting fires or something.

Also, didn't "Cheddite" originally refer to a nitrobenzene or nitrotoluene (nitroaromatic) and chlorate mixture? Wiki and memory say so...

Metacelsus - 12-11-2014 at 11:28

Yes, it did.

PHILOU Zrealone - 14-11-2014 at 05:58

Quote: Originally posted by jpsmith123  
Quote: Originally posted by forgotpassword  
What about Kerosene and KClO3?


In U.S. patent #3155554, "Liquid Blanketed Chlorate Blasting Agent", Melvin Cook et al. suggest that sodium chlorate based explosives are more powerful than those using potassium chlorate. An example in the patent is 88% NaClO3 & 12% fuel oil.




Just as the bad idea to mix chlorate with vitamin C (ascorbic acid)...It sets some HClO3 free what is a good way to get ClO2 gas and spontaneously set the mix into fire after undetermined laps of time --> not advisable to store.

Here they propose into this mix to use NH4NO3 and chlorate what is known to be a bad idea because of NH4ClO3 transient formation and resulting NCl3....so very unsafe patent!

Moai

Laboratory of Liptakov - 9-12-2014 at 11:34

For those of you who like to tear and split wood. Laboratory of Liptakov developed a plastic explosive on the basis of ammonium perchlorate. (type Moai:)) VoD about 3200 m/s. Minimum water absorption, long-term stability. Content NC 3 is not required. Everything else in the picture. Sensitivity to No.8. For the cumulative charge is not applicable. Low VoD. The ripping rock, wood, bricks, wall composition is sufficient ....:cool:.......LL

MOAI.jpg - 248kB
To increase the VoD can be replaced by a part of the composition ETN, PETN, MHN, maybe MEKP, or EGDN, NG. But it is not tested. This would have to give someone more experienced.

[Edited on 9-12-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

[Edited on 9-12-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

forgotpassword - 10-12-2014 at 14:33

Nice work! and I like the face you molded onto the putty :)

I was thinking, what VOD would KClO3 and Sugar have, say a 50/50 ratio?

I would say a near full detonation could be achieved, as it is quite sensitive, it can be hit with a hammer and detonate when finely powdered.



[Edited on 10-12-2014 by forgotpassword]

KClO3

Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-12-2014 at 06:25

Do you try to ratio saccharose 25,2 and KClO3 74,8%. Oxygene balanced is +0,052. OB saccharose = - 116, KClO3 = + 39,5. But I thinking, that this mixture will be not detonation. Without 5% aluminium powder. You can try....:cool:.......LL

Bert - 11-12-2014 at 09:08

What was mesh size of the ammonium perchlorate used?

plastic

Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-12-2014 at 14:39

Hi,
ammonium perchlorate for plastic - mesh - sieve about 0,1 - 0,2 mm. Tested primary initiation, only 0,5g pressed LA , full detonation. Diameter 22mm in wood. Interesting. The problem is only the price perchlorate.
Plastik can be used as an improvised incendiary way. The speed is about 1 cm / sec. Another possibility is to use as combustion fuel directly to the resistor to initiate the LA. Or rocket engine. High temperature burning......:cool:.....LL

AP plast.jpg - 67kB

[Edited on 12-12-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

AP plastic

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-12-2014 at 07:38

Here is another example. It is interesting excluded elemental copper. It comes from TeACP. The composition was calculated to OB around zero. Parts by weight per 100g: AP74, TeACP17, PIB4, 5W40-4, MB1. OB = + 0.137. With aluminum 1 = -4.6. According to deposit copper on all parts of birch was complete detonation. I presume. Plasticity same as in the test above...:cool:...LL

AP plast.jpg - 436kB

forgotpassword - 21-12-2014 at 10:01

What size blasting cap are you using to initiate those Liptakov?

shock tube

Laboratory of Liptakov - 21-12-2014 at 10:50

If it is an unknown composition always equivalent No.8. Thus as 0.5 to 0.7 g ETN. However. It is only equivalent. For clear and comprehensible idea. I can not really write what I use. It is an ecological initiator. Patent pending. And many tests. Equivalent is No.8 to No.10. ...:cool:...LL

Christmas

Laboratory of Liptakov - 23-12-2014 at 04:35

Christmas

MCH.jpg - 144kB

Hennig Brand - 23-12-2014 at 08:02

Merry Christmas to you too. I like your card. :)

Cheddite 90/10 Ammonium Perchlorate/white petroleum

Keith Fletcher - 11-1-2015 at 16:36

I was reading this pdf and i saw this simple mixture, Cheddite 90/10 AP/WP.
seems pretty solid. With a det. velocity of about 2500 m/s and create a cloud of chlorine. I haven't been able to experiment with it. I would guess that it would have characteristics similar to AN/Al mixtures. Low brisances and difficult detonation. I haven't been able to find any in depth research on this specific mixture. If anyone knows of any in depth literature on this specific subject or hands on experience with this mixture. I would appreciate it. If any of my speculations are wrong please correct me. Just want to see if this is worth testing.

Videos of similar mixtures.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omaGJsifzTU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQnyFisrAbk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7w5YR3mKAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V-1BL1Tr90


Attachment: Wallace, William - The Revised Black Book-Guide to Field Manufactured Explosives.pdf (3.4MB)
This file has been downloaded 591 times




m8Pq66.gif - 3.2MB PEPCON Disaster, click on to see gif


forgotpassword - 11-1-2015 at 17:11

There is a thread below on this topic, why did you feel the need to post a new one?

Keith Fletcher - 11-1-2015 at 20:23

I have read the thread and i could not find comprehensive knowledge or in depth test results for this exact mixture. There are some potassium perchlorate and ammonium perchlorate related mixtures but there aren't the same, they usually contain aluminum or charcoal. I would like information on 90/10 ammonium perchlorate/white petroleum. Any other mixture would not share the exact same performance as 90/10.

Bert - 11-1-2015 at 20:37



Hi Keith- Welcome to sciencemadness.org!

Please read this FAQ about posting, it will help you decide where and how to bring up topics that interest you, and explain why I merged your thread into the existing cheddite thread.

Posting on topics

Remember: It is nearly ALWAYS better to post in an existing thread than to start a new one!

Posting- And You...

You should look at the library. In particular, I think you are going to be interested in the Tenney L. Davis and Phokion Naoum books.

The sciencemadness.org library

dangerous amateur - 26-12-2017 at 02:40

Cheddites are often said to be quite sensitive.

What does that mean in practice?

Im talking about Chlorate/fuel mixture only, without any added nitroesters.



Can they be used for bullet sensitive tannerite substitutes?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 26-12-2017 at 06:25

Important question is, which fuel will used. If someone use some fuel with dirty additive, some (high reactive) organic type dirt or add something for increase power, Can happens, that cheddite will exploded or burned self. For example over 30C during storage. It is, I mean, the main dangerous. Basic mix KClO3 + pure mineral fuel (WAX, grease, WD40 = solvent oil) is not sensitive on friction. You can try on the anvil. On own ranch....:cool:

Bert - 26-12-2017 at 18:43

Just looked at several sets of figures for drop hammer testing, friction testing on chlorate based cheddites. Some of them are more sensitive than unphlegmatized PETN.

If you really want to make exploding rifle targets, go to boomershoot.org and check out their history of target mixture development for their annual spring shoot. They have made several tons of this over 14 years time without a manufacturing accident (yet, you never know- they mix a lot of this with amateur help).

Project Ethylene Glycol

Ammonium nitrate, Potassium chlorate, cheap ethylene glycol antifreeze from Wal-Mart. It works for any center fire rifle I have tried from .22 Hornet up, no expensive Aluminum powder required. Don't try to store it, use on day of mixing. Will occasionally shoot for really brisk rimfire rounds too.


[Edited on 27-12-2017 by Bert]

dangerous amateur - 28-12-2017 at 15:35

Thanks, but i need something that can be handled and stored for some hours.
Ammonium chlorate is not prefered.

I just wondered if some Miedziankit style stuff can be made sensitive enough.
Maybe with some manganese oxide or similar additive

Bert - 28-12-2017 at 19:39

Quote: Originally posted by dangerous amateur  
Thanks, but i need something that can be handled and stored for some hours.
Ammonium chlorate is not prefered.


Main reason not to store overnight is legal.

Look at the link. The people in Idaho make these targets before their 3 day long event, store them in an approved HE magazine but do not keep them much longer than that. I don't think these are ammonium chlorate sensitized, they will fire immediately after mixing, but take quite a while to self destruct. I would guess chlorate and glycol are quite touchy enough, but without testing? Can't say.

Spilled target material from grazed targets left outdoors in sunlight/moist air have spontaneously combusted after about a week, starting grass fires.

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