Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide

Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide

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madscientist - 20-5-2002 at 20:06

PREPARATION AND PROPERTIES OF METHYL ETHYL KETONE PEROXIDE

The three most common forms of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide are:

MONOMERIC: C4H10(O)4

DIMERIC: C8H18(O)6

ANHYDROUS DIMERIC: C8H16(O)4

The anhydrous dimeric form is the preferable form to create; it is more powerful and less sensitive to shock. Bot hforms are very sensitive to heat. Anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide takes many times as sharp of a blow from a hammer to initiate detonation than with trimeric acetone peroxide. This is due to several factors:

(1) It is an oily liquid, not a solid, A solid will not shift shape to fit its container, as will a liquid. Thus, when trimeric acetone peroxide is struck with a hammer, the crystals shatter, causing decomposition; when anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is struck with a hammer, it will shift shape significantly, often avoiding decomposition.
(2) The C-O-O-C group is better shielded in anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide than in trimeric acetone peroxide. Thus, random energy surges will be less likely to affect the C-O-O-C group enough to break all of the bonds in the group, which would result in exothermic decomposition, likely starting a chain reaction; this would be perceived as detonation.
(3) There is less stress on the peroxide groups in anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide than in trimeric acetone peroxide (bond stress is mostly responsible for monomeric acetone peroxide's incredible instability, and anhydrous dimeric acetone peroxide's relative instability when compared to trimeric acetone peroxide).
(4) The decomposition to an exothermic stage of decomposition of a single molecule of anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide requires more energy than with a single molecule of trimeric acetone peroxide.
(5) Less energy is liberated from the decomposition of a single anhydrous methyl ethyl ketone peroxide molecule, causing it to be less likely that detonation will occur from the decomposition of just a handful of anhydrous methyl ethyl ketone peroxide molecules.

Perhaps the most valuable property of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is the fact that it can be stored for a long period of time. Chemical decomposition does not proceed beyond the monomeric form, with the obvious exception of deflagration and detonation. Autonomous chemical decomposition is very slow when not in the presence of hydrogen peroxide (which causes the anhydrous dimeric form to begin to decompose slowly into the monomeric form). Because of this, it is wise to prepare anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide in an excess of methyl ethyl ketone (this fact has been factored into the below instruction on preparation of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide). Anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is a thick, oily liquid. The anhydrous dimeric form, when pure, possesses a sharp, sour, acidic "burning" odor. The procedure for preparation that will soon be discussed will produce mostly the anhydrous dimeric form.

PREPARATION OF ANHYDROUS DIMERIC METHYL ETHYL KETONE PEROXIDE

CHEMICALS NEEDED:
-40mL 27.5% H2O2 solution (other concentrations may be used; the volume of hydrogen peroxide solution will need to be adjusted accordingly; the quantity of sulfuric acid used will also need to be adjusted)
-25mL Methyl Ethyl Ketone CH3COCH2CH3 (sold as a solvent at hardware stores; keep in mind that it will dissolve most plastics)
-5mL 98% sulfuric acid (other concentrations may be used, the volume of sulfuric acid will need to be adjusted accordingly)
-200mL NaHCO3 solution

1) Place 25mL of methyl ethyl ketone in a 100mL beaker. Place this beaker in an ice bath at temperatures ranging preferrably from -10 to 5 degrees Celcius; the lower end of the described recommended temperature range is preferrable.

2) Place 40mL of 27.5% H2O2 solution in a 100mL beaker. Place this beaker in an ice bath at temperatures ranging preferrably from -10 to 5 degrees Celcius; the lower end of the described recommended temperature range is preferrable.

3) Wait fro the temperature of both the methyl ethyl ketone and the temperature of the 27.5% H2O2 solution to fall into the recommended temperature range. Then, pour the beaker of methyl ethyl ketone into the beaker of hydrogen peroxide solution. Stir this solution for thirty seconds.

4) Add 5mL of 98% sulfuric acid slowly, drop by drop, taking care to keep temperatures within the recommended temperature range, into the beaker containing the monomeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide. If the temperature rises above 5 degrees Celcius, stop adding the sulfuric acid immediately.

5) After all of the sulfuric acid is added, wait 24 hours. It is highly recommended to attempt to keep the temperatures within the recommended temperature range during the entirety of every step of the prepataion (this is a very common mistake made when attempting to make trimeric acetone peroxide; most will not bother to keep the temperatures around zero degrees Celcius while waiting 24 hours or so for the reaction to complete; the result of that is far less stable acetone peroxide due to lower yields of the trimeric form and higher yields of the dimeric form).

6) The beaker should now have two layers; a thick oily layer on the top, and a translucent white, relatively thin liquid on the bottom. The thick oily layer on top is the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide. All traces of acid must now be removed. Pour this beaker into a 300mL beaker. Then slowly add 200mL of NaHCO3 solution. Stir vigorously for five minutes; try to keep the size of the pockets of the oily liquid (the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide) as small as possible when stirring.

7) Most of the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide will now begin to sink to the bottom of the beaker. Extract it with a syringe. Some will also remain on the surface; extract this also with a syringe (it is possible to isolate the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide by decantation, but this process can be very time consuming, frusturating, and will not be able to harvest nearly as much of the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide as the syringe extraction method).

If you wish to further deacidify the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide, place it in an airtight aluminum container, in an ice bath (extremely important!). Leave the methyl ethyl ketone peroxide in the airtight aluminum container until bubbles no longer form. A safer alternative to this process is to add noon-crumpled pieces of aluminum foil to the anhdrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide (also in an ice bath); however this will often make it difficult to recollect all of the anhdrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide, due to it sticking to the pieces of aluminum foil; it can be very difficult to remove from that surface.

9) Now pour the deacidified anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide into an open glass, or plastic (not made of a polyhydrocarbon plastic!). Let it stay in the open at temperatures around 15 degrees Celcius to allow most of the water to evaporate off.

10) Now that the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is dehydrated, it is ready for use.

STORAGE: Pour the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide into a sealed plastic container (not made of a polyhydrocarbon plastic!) for storage. The reason for sealing it is to prevent loss of anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide due to evaporation. The lower the temperatures are during storage, the better, with the exception of temperatures so low that it freezes the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide.

Density of MEKP = 1.0g/cm3
Freezing point = approximately -5 to -10 degrees Celcius
Dimeric 2-peroxybutane explodes upon contact with concentrated sulfuric acid.

It seems that dimeric 2-peroxybutane (MEKP) is more stable than previously thought. It does not explode unless severely shocked. I have tried to explode as much as 4mL using only fuse, and that resulted in nothing but a tall pillar of flame. It does explode with a sharp crack when hit *hard* with a hammer. I suggest using aqueous ammonia instead of sodium hydrogen carbonate for neutralizing acid.

A dimeric 2-peroxybutane / ammonium nitrate dynamite:
11mL (or grams) of dimeric 2-peroxybutane mixed with 100g of ammonium nitrate.

madscientist - 20-5-2002 at 20:06

I recently prepared some methyl ethyl ketone peroxide. This time it was a higher isomer, it is a mix of a white crystaline solid, and the dimeric liquid isomer. I assume that the white crystaline solid is trimeric 2-peroxybutane. The reason for the formation of the solid form: I carried out the reaction at very low temperatures, and deacidified the methyl ethyl ketone peroxide before it was broken down to a lower isomer by the sulfuric acid. The temperature of the reaction: negative thirty degrees Celcius. If you do not want the solid form, I recommend allowing the methyl ethyl ketone peroxide to sit in a warm area (not extracted yet, of course, still mixed with water) for several hours before deacidifying. That should break down any trimeric 2- peroxybutane down into the preferrable liquid dimeric 2-peroxybutane form.

plasma - 20-5-2002 at 20:06

Does the same ratios for dynamite work with AP instead of MEKP. Is this just an oxygen balance ? AP has a oxygen balance of -150% and AN 20%. Would the ratios be 10g AP & 75g AN.

Madog - 20-5-2002 at 20:07

ive actualy made this before. and just curious, where did u get this info? your post is remarkably similar to a post made by a guy on the e&w forum before it went down. that was a good thread.

[Edited on 5/30/03 by Madog]

madscientist - 20-5-2002 at 20:07

That post was written in a text file on my computer... I simply copied and pasted it back in here.

madscientist - 20-5-2002 at 20:08

It seems that dimeric 2-peroxybutane (MEKP) is more stable than previously thought. It does not explode unless severely shocked. I have tried to explode as much as 4mL using only fuse, and that resulted in nothing but a tall pillar of flame. It does explode with a sharp crack when hit *hard* with a hammer. I suggest using aqueous ammonia instead of sodium hydrogen carbonate for neutralizing acid.

A dimeric 2-peroxybutane / ammonium nitrate dynamite:
11mL (or grams) of dimeric 2-peroxybutane mixed with 100g of ammonium nitrate.

A dimeric 2-peroxybutane / sodium nitrate dynamite:
44mL of dimeric 2-peroxybutane mixed with 51g sodium nitrate.

[Edited on 21-5-2002 by madscientist]

plasma - 20-5-2002 at 20:09

Is it possible to make methyl ethyl ketone by adding ether to acetone.

madscientist - 20-5-2002 at 20:10

It depends what kind of ether you are using... there is isopropol ether,ethyl ether, propyl ether, methyl ether, butyl ether... and the list goes on seemingly forever. It might be possible to prepare methyl ethyl ketone from acetone and methyl ether; but this would probably be a reaction of the "high temperature, high pressure, exotic catalyst" type.

plasma - 20-5-2002 at 20:10

Is there any other name for methyl ethyl ketone (like Acetone for dimethyl ketone) ?
Thanks

madscientist - 20-5-2002 at 20:11

Another name for methyl ethyl ketone could be isobutanone.I recently prepared some methyl ethyl ketone peroxide. This time it was a
higher isomer, it is a mix of a white crystaline solid, and the dimeric liquid isomer. I assume that the white crystaline solid is trimeric 2-peroxybutane. The reason for the formation of the solid form: I carried
out the reaction at very low temperatures, and deacidified the methyl ethyl ketone peroxide before it was broken down to a lower isomer by
the sulfuric acid. The temperature of the reaction: negative thirty degrees Celcius. If you do not want the solid form, I recommend allowing the methyl ethyl ketone peroxide to sit in a warm area (not extracted yet, of course, still mixed with water) for several hours before deacidifying. That should break down any trimeric 2-peroxybutane down into the preferrable liquid dimeric 2-peroxybutane form.

PHILOU Zrealone - 20-5-2002 at 20:12

*Dimethyl keton or aceton is called also propanone; methylethyl keton can only be named butanone or 2-butanone; never isobutanone!
Iso in a molecule means that one CH in a terminal chain position holds 2 CH3:
ex isobutane is CH3-CH(CH3)2
isopropanol is HO-CH(CH3)2
isopentane is CH3-CH2-CH(CH3)2
neopentane is CH3-C(CH3)3
(neo means that one C in a terminal chain position holds 3 CH3!).
By definition a ceton is R-CO-R' with R/R' different from H, so even if you think realy hard its is not possible to make a branched ceton with 4 C linked together since the CO has to be in second or third position to be a ceton (otherwise it is an aldehyde)!!!!

It is impossible to make a reaction between:
aceton and ether that will provide MEK!
CH3-CO-CH3 + CH3-CH2-O-CH2-CH3 -/-> MEK
Since CH3-CO-CH3 will dehydrate/crotonise on itself and ether will lead to CH2=CH2 and water!Even with catalyst it would be difficult since ether is quite resistant to chemical attack and ceton tends to polymerise (condensate).

Mixing CTAP with NH4NO3 will never reduce its sensitivity or power (it will only reduce a little its making cost)! Treat it as if it was plain pure CTAP --> little quantities!

PH Z

BrAiNFeVeR - 24-5-2002 at 07:37

I think it does reduce some power ...

And if percentage of CTAP is lower then 10%, I think it even loses flame sensitivity (small particles of CTAP burn, but it no longer effectively transports flame to support deflagration to detonation transition)

Offcourse, I would never suggest of using large quantities of it, because I hardly thrust it myself ...

Also take into account the acidity of NH4NO3, and the way some peroxides react with acids.

madscientist - 28-5-2002 at 12:06

After some thought, I now believe that the solid form of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is actually (CH3CO(O)CH2CH3)2. The liquid form is (CH3C(OOH)(O)CH2CH3)2. I will now explain what brought me to these conclusions.

The liquid form is not CH3C(OOH)2CH2CH3, because that is formed simply by the reaction of CH3COCH2CH3 and H2O2. No methyl ethyl ketone peroxide came out of solution upon mixing of H2O2 and CH3COCH2CH3; from this I can conclude that the liquid methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is not CH3C(OOH)2CH2CH3, and that CH3C(OOH)2CH2CH3 is water soluble.

I believe that the liquid form is actually (CH3C(OOH)(O)CH2CH3)2. That would explain the *very* slight solubility in water, and would explain its tendacy to burn, rather than detonate, when exposed to flame. (CH3C(OOH)(O)CH2CH3)2 should decompose this way when exposed to flame:

2(CH3C(OOH)(O)CH2CH3)2 --> 4CH3COCH2CH3 + 2H2O + 3(O2) + energy

That reaction would be exothermic enough to create all gaseous products, but not exothermic enough for an explosion. Combustion of the product gasses will then occur. This explains why liquid methyl ethyl ketone peroxide, when exposed to flame, simply burns, creating a towering pillar of orange flame for a brief moment.

8CH3COCH2CH3 + 4H2O + 6(O2) --> 10H2O + 10CO + 11C2H4

The C2H4 burning with atmospheric oxygen explains the pillar of orange flame.

(out of time, will finish this post soon)

[Edited on 30-5-2002 by madscientist]

PHILOU Zrealone - 16-8-2002 at 08:20

Any carbon rich molecule that has a negative OB when submitted to deflagration or detonation will produce orange/yellow flame!

PH Z

rikkitikkitavi - 12-10-2002 at 08:14

so we could probably assume that it is the liquid form of MEKP that is used as a catalyst(hardener) for polyester plastics, dissolved into something.

I recently bought a small bottle (100 ml) with a stated content of 30-40 % MEKP
for 3 € at Biltema (for our swedish members

. It is only labeled Oxydizing but not flammable which makes me curious about which solvent is used.

Any ideas anyone?

/rickard

madscientist - 12-10-2002 at 09:37

Maybe they're using a chlorinated hydrocarbon as the solvent, such as CCl₂CCl₂? The MEKP sold in solution commercially is the trimeric form (or so I hear).

hydrochloric instead of sulfuric ?

binary mz - 14-10-2002 at 12:06

MEKP looks very interesting. A friend made it recently and was not very happy when each time he added the H2SO4 it 'hissed' drop by drop...It took him about 3 hours to add 5ml. Does this sound right ? Also, could HCl be used instead ?

madscientist - 14-10-2002 at 12:13

If the temperature of the reaction is kept low, I suppose HCl could be used.

As for adding the H₂SO₄, I suggest diluting it prior to adding it to the solution prepared by mixing MEK with hydrogen peroxide.

excellent

alien14305 - 3-12-2002 at 20:00

Hey madog, im gonna post here like you suggested. I i bet the ammonium nitrate was still a little wet. My friend dried it out the night before bet he accidently left it out in the open too long. I was still hoping it would still work. Thanks, I'll take the KNO3 suggestion and play around with it a little. I can't wait till i get some money and time on my break to try this out. I too would like to try to make some nitroglycerine to compare the sensitivity of the two. You said it failed to be detonated with lead picrate? It doesn't sound too bad. I will try to make some to get use to it. My dynamite I will try to replicate the real stuff in look as much as I can. This is gonna be so awsome.

yummy mekp

binary mz - 3-12-2002 at 21:02

yah, ive been in love with this b00tyful substance for a while. very resourceful! my friends use to sensitize there activated an with AP but they never liked that. and lots of the time, if left alone for a while, it wouldnt work later on (moisture?). just the AP would det. with mekp theyve never had impartial detonations. whats the longest everyone has kept this stuff ? i think the longest they kept this stuff around (by itselt, not mixed with AN) was around 3 weeks. thing about this substance that slipped there mines was if its soaked in to something and lit, it will detonate. soaked == confinement. i saw a friend dip less than 2mm of a match stick in this stuff, took it out, lit it, and *bang* no more match stick, just sore fingers. be careful

has anyone found out how fast this stuff dets ?

like you said

alien14305 - 4-12-2002 at 13:32

Binary mz, I your post you said it was a great substance. I wonder why there is so little talk of what i also think is a great explosive. It seems better then AP at setting off AN. In your post, did you say that you left the MEKP and AN dynamite out for a while and it still detonated even though AN is very hydroscopic(I think that is how you say it)? I assume the dynamite is not hydroscopic. How sensitive is MEKP and AN dynamite? What is the mixture ratio you use? I think that MEKP has a det velocity of 4500 to maybe 5000 meters per second. It has a supposed density of 1 and 1.18g/cm3 for AP and its velocity is 5300 meter/second. Does the mekp form anything dangerous after being around for a couple of weeks like AP does? My last thing i been wondering is does MEKP get all sensitive when frozen like NG does?

Madog - 4-12-2002 at 14:02

the lead picrate failed to detonate PETN.

the reason why nitro gets sensitive when its partialy frozen is because it gets chunks of ice in it to cause friction, its like if u threw gravel in it.

Madog - 4-12-2002 at 14:04

the lead picrate failed to detonate PETN.

the reason why nitro gets sensitive when its partialy frozen is because it gets chunks of ice in it to cause friction, its like if u threw gravel in it.

alien14305 - 4-12-2002 at 15:49

Yeah i know the reason for NG becoming sensitive is the little peices that freeze in it. So i guess freezing MEKP is like having little peices of the solid isomer of MEKP in it. If you threw non absorbant material into NG would it become sensitive, if not then why does frozen NG become sensitive? Is this true about MEKP? I want to be sure cause I am planning to make MEKP dynamite and store it in waterproof container outside it the woods. This is to be sure that when I retrive it won't be all sensitive and go off. Where I live it now goes below freezing every night.

Madog - 4-12-2002 at 17:21

if u throw stuff like pebbles into NG it will of course become sensitive. i have heard of people shoveing detonators into dynamite and haveing it detonate, completely frozen NG is extremely hard to detonate. i have never heard of anyone detonateing it, i dont know the freezeig point of MEKP, but i would expect it to be low.

frozen NG

alien14305 - 4-12-2002 at 19:03

Someone wrote once and said MEKP froze at -5*C when they were making it. I also read someone said it froze at -5*C
to -10*C My question is would little crystals of MEKP make the dynamite more sensitive like NG becomes? Sorry for all these questions but, i am a little paranoid of it going off. I guess if you put non absorbant hard material into MEKP of NG that will make it more sensitive. So that is why all desensitize is soft and absorbant, am I correct?

Energy84 - 4-12-2002 at 19:17

I've heard of MEKP+KNO3 dynamite before and am wondering if anybody has every tried it before and in what ratios?
I bought a 22ml bottle of "LIQUID HARDNER (MEKP)" and the MSDS says that it contains:
1-2% Hydrogen Peroxide
30-40% Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide
50-60% Dimethyl Phthalate
http://www.bondo-online.com/bnd_cds/product_msds/5405.pdf

binary mz - 5-12-2002 at 02:03

same as madscientist post: 11mL mekp/100g AN kept in a h202 bottle. detonated with AP w/ elmers rubbing cement. 50ml mek/80ml h202/30ml hcl. 24 hours later theres a nice big glob in the mason jar. i wouldnt try freezing the stuff. ive never seen it kept long, it was just mixed at site and used from what i remember.

activated AN/Al. w/ mekp sounds nice.

frogfot - 6-12-2002 at 11:10

The way i see it, frosen NG is sencitive because when crystalls of it are touching eachother or other hard objects, the bondings in substance are being stressed against their will (because molecules have no way to go, but sit in the crystall). That can break some bondings and cause chain decomposition...
So, that "theory" tells us that all sencitive liquid explosives should be more sencitive when they ubtain crystalline form. That should include MEKP.

binary mz - 7-12-2002 at 02:03

we had a good conversation going then it went silent. lets pick it back up... how does everyone neuteralize there mekp ? i prefer baking soda over amonia. then i let it sit there at an angel in the mason jar, syphon off the majority of the water/h202/mek and let the rest evaporate in a glass tray. sometimes i get tons and tons of little bubbles of mekp or one big glob. any ideas ? its then stored in a plastic bottle. so how does everyone like to use this ?

Polverone - 7-12-2002 at 13:33

What kind of plastic bottle do you use? MEK will dissolve many plastics, and I was under the impression that MEKP was the same way.

BTW, another possible use for MEKP that has struck me is as a source of free radicals in certain organic syntheses... Such as halogenation reactions! Organic synthetic procedures that call for intense light on the reaction vessel are using photogenerated free radicals. But MEKP might be a handier source of such radicals than an industrial strength UV light source. I have seen at least one procedure for preparing benzyl chloride that uses benzoyl peroxide as its free radical source. MEKP is easier to synthesize than benzoyl peroxide. I wonder if it could be substituted.

Even cooler would be if one could synthesize (mono/di/tri)chloroacetic acid from acetic acid, trichloroisocyanuric acid (a fairly common chemical used for pool/spa chlorination), and MEKP. I, for one, would be overjoyed not to have to bubble dry chlorine gas through hot acetic acid mixed with phosphorus... But my imagination exceeds my knowledge. I have no clue if it is worth exploring anything along these lines.

binary mz - 8-12-2002 at 00:09

its a dark brown h202 bottle. i have not had any problems with it yet... anybody mix mekp with anything else besides the usual nitates ?

lucifer - 8-12-2002 at 04:59

I was wondering if petn soaked with mekp would make a “safe detonator” that is ,safer than acetone peroxide or Hmtd?

alien14305 - 8-12-2002 at 08:02

Yesterday I just made 15 extra dollars in tips so i am gonna start to go buy some stuff to make some dynamite. I am going to buy wallpaper glue for the casings and some steel pipe to wrap the casing around when making it. I got the idea of a good safe way to make a detanator safely but i can't soak it into nitrates. Ok i will drill a 3/8 inch hole aboout 3 inches deep into an 10"x8"X6" solid oak block. I will crimp copper tubing shut at one end and the other end put a 1/8" steel rod it to the tube and crimp the other end of the tube around it. This will leave an 1/8" fuse hole. I will put the tubbing into the oak block and take a chemical resistant eyedropper and drip the MEKP into the tubbing through the fuse hole. When I get 1 milliliter into the cap I will then insert the fuse through the hole. I take the finished cap out of the oak block which i think will shield most of the blast if the cap does go off. I then wrap the whole cap in duct tape and help hold the fuse in. I think this will be safe to do.

TheBear - 3-1-2003 at 10:45

Rikkitikkitavi: Have you tried it yet and if so could you perhaps post some info like yields etc.

Biltema is too far away for me, know any other sources?

TheBear - 3-1-2003 at 11:03

Can't edit:

Rikkitikkitavi:

You bought MEKB??
How did you extrakt it?
And where can I find MEK?
How sensitive is this compound compared to AP, HMTD, RDX, PETN, NG, TNT.

x Nm friction sensitivity and y Nm shock sensitivity doesn't say too much I reckon.

TheBear - 3-1-2003 at 11:04

God dammit! When will we be able to edit?

That bold B is of course P.

lucifer - 12-1-2003 at 17:38

Does someone has sensitivity data for MEKP in Nm ?

Also if my information is wright, MEKP will explode if it gets in contact with conc. H2SO4,
So wouldn’t it be dangerous to add 98% H2SO4 to the mix of MEK / H2O2.
During the addition of H2SO4 the MEKP that is formed could come in contact with the newly added 98% H2SO4,
And could explode.
So wouldn’t it be better to dilute the H2SO4 to 50% before adding, it also doesn’t make the “ssss” sound if you do this.

madscientist - 12-1-2003 at 17:52

I would either dilute the sulfuric acid prior to adding it to the MEK/H₂O₂ solution; or add the MEK to a solution of H₂O₂ and sulfuric acid.

Cappy - 31-3-2003 at 15:22

Quote:

Originally posted by TheBear

And where can I find MEK?

methyl ethyl ketone is used as liquid plastic cement in modeling. It looks something like this:

http://www.testors.com/catalog_item.asp?itemNbr=1450

METK is attractive to me because I have sodium bicarbonate , sulfuric acid (battery acid refill concentration), and methyl ethyl ketone, hydrogen peroxide (3% household concentration), and aluminum foil. Also, it sounds like it would be easy enough to detonate.

However, I don't think it's a good idea for me. Procedure sounds somewhat complicated and dangerous, with temperature being so crucial. METK sounds almost as unstable as nitrogylcerine. I want to make some high-explosive that doesn't require a booster to detonate, but I don't think I'm experienced enough with explosives to make this stuff.

What do you think? Is this a bad pick for first timers like myself?

[Edited on 3/31/2003 by Cappy]

Is this thread dead?

Cappy - 31-3-2003 at 15:26

Any further developents from you guys?

Darkfire - 31-3-2003 at 15:34

If you decide to start, start with stuff like nitrostarch, nitroceulose, and Picric acid, then move on to peroxide, then more sencitive things, dont evn worrie about detonating the first stuff you make. I myself wish i would have started with things like i sugested to you, my first was a fulminate, and i dont sugest making them until your ready.

CTR

MEKP for sale

Skean Dhu - 7-4-2003 at 18:26

i found 10oz for $6(us) at this site
http://www.tapplastics.com/fiberglass/polyester_resins/12_me...

would MEKP/AN be a bad idea? by bad i mean worse than APAN

Cappy - 7-4-2003 at 20:50

Thanks for the link Skean Dhu.

What do you guys think? Is there any risk with buying prepared chemicals such as this?

I imagine it is in anhydrous dimeric form, as a more powerful and sensitive form would be even less safe for use as a hardener (some heat is evolved when resin and hardener mix). Can anyone confirm if commericial MEKP is usable, and if it can be converted more easily than MEK if it is not in anhydrous dimeric form?

[Edited on 4/8/2003 by Cappy]

NERV - 8-4-2003 at 09:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Skean Dhu
would MEKP/AN be a bad idea? by bad i mean worse than APAN

From my own experiance AN/MEKP Was much more stable than ANAP. It took a very hard hit from a hammer to get it to go off, unlike ANAP which was much easier to set off by a hammer hit. Plus it is well known that MEKP is more stable than AP is.

Madog - 1-5-2003 at 16:24

AP is definately more sensitive than MEKP, and NG for that mattter! ive done some tests and found MEKP considerably less sensitive to hammer blow than NG! although

i am still patial to NG, i just like it, loves to chuck dirt.

for some reason im more comfortable with NG, i feel more confident with it.

[Edited on 5/2/03 by Madog]

Aaron-V2.0 - 6-5-2003 at 17:53

From the page that Skean Dhu posted.

Quote:

Available in 8 lb size by phone order only

Just tie a hefty cap to the side of the container and light. That's just too easy.

Also, I've attempted to use the unpurified Bondo brand MEKP to sensitize AN and it failed miserably. A waste of two professional caps I might add.

DTP - 7-5-2003 at 20:57

The Bondo brand MEKP hardener is only 30-40% MEKP according to the MSDS.

Marduk - 8-5-2003 at 10:42

Hi!

This is an incredable board.
I´m from Germany and here it ist not possible to host such boards officially.
So excuse me for my english if I make some mistakes.

Today I made some MEKP and I am very plaesed with it.
It ist easy to make and safe to handle.

But I couldn´t find the oxygen balance of this stuff - can somebody help me out?

[Edited on 10-5-2003 by Marduk]

Polverone - 9-5-2003 at 10:24

See http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/methyl_ethyl_ketone_pe.... You'll notice that a mixture of different compounds is formed, not just one well-defined compound. But if you count the C, H, and O atoms in each of those molecules you can easily determine their individual oxygen balance values, then produce a weighted average for the mixture based on how much of the mixture they comprise. The short answer is that MEKP is quite oxygen deficient overall.

It is my (perhaps misinformed) understanding that certain types of speech (such as advocacy of racism or violence) are restricted in Germany, but I am surprised that chemistry discussion is not allowed. This is a chemistry forum after all, not a weapons forum.

Marduk - 11-5-2003 at 12:39

Now I know how to calculate oxygen balances.

Anhydrous dimeric MEKP (C8H16O4) has an oxygen balance of -181,61%.

Chemistry discussion in general is allowed in Germany, of course, but the discussion about the synthesis of explosive materials ist strictly forbidden.

PHILOU Zrealone - 4-6-2003 at 02:21

Just for those interested:
CH3-CH2-CO-CH3 + H2O2 --> CH3-CH2-C(OH)(OOH)-CH3
2 CH3-CH2-C(OH)(OOH)-CH3 --> (CH3-CH2)(CH3)C(-O-O-)2C(CH3)(CH2-CH3) + 2 H2O

CDMEKP = cyclo dimethyl ethyl keton peroxyde = C8H16O4
Molar mass = 12*8 + 1*16 + 16*4 = 176 g/mol

C8H16O4 --> 2CO2 + 6C + 8 H2
We want complete burning so
6C + 6O2 --> 6CO2 (we miss 6 moles of O2)
8 H2 + 4 O2 --> 8H2O (we miss 4 moles of O2)
In total there is a lack of 10 moles O2 per mole CDMEKP what represents 10*32g = 320g O2
Then OB is easy to find out:
Negative because we have a lack of oxygen!
320g are missing to burn 176g --> 320/176 *100%= 181,81%

CDMEKP OB = - 181,81%

Now considering the brother CDAP, we all know that trimeric CTAP is better performing and has a higher VOD and is stabler than the dimeric form.And the tetrameric form is even stabler...so why to bother with dimeric form of MEKP when there is probably a higher trimer and maybe tetramer that should display better performances and stability?

CROpyrO - 22-7-2003 at 05:00

is it posible to make MEKP more stable ? maybe added to sodium chlorate ? i heard that a god explosive is made when mixed with ammonium nitrate ( that i don't have

) please help me . can somebody tell exactly how sensitive it is !? thanks

KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun) - 22-7-2003 at 18:47

madscientist u said (first post of the subject) the anhydrous dimeric is more powerful than the dimeric hydroperoxide. how can it be so, when the further has one more peroxide groop and higher OB too. did u mean cyclic dimer by anhydrous dimeric? why the file on library doesn't mention it? OB of the isomers:
HOOC(C2H5

(CH3

OOH > HOOC(C2H5

(CH3

OOC(C2H5

(CH3

OOH > HOO(C(C2H5

(CH3

OO)2C(C2H5

(CH3

OOH > HOO(C(C2H5

(CH3

OO)3C(C2H5

(CH3

OOH > HOO(C(C2H5

(CH3

OO)4C(C2H5

(CH3

OOH > HOO(C(C2H5

(CH3

OO)5C(C2H5

(CH3

OOH > (-C(C2H5

(CH3

OO-)3 = (-C(C2H5

(CH3

OO-)2

MEKP and IP

shadeT - 8-8-2003 at 09:09

wow , i'm suprised with MEKP stability , i made isopropyl peroxide too but it explodes with touch of a butan/propane flame , the MEKP needs a little more time to ignite , but the power of MEKP is much more smaller than the power of isopropyl peroxide , a wooden stick dipped in IP detonates with a loud crack and blows the stick into pieces , the MEKP in the same amount makes jest a small poof and does nothing to the stick . both of the explosives have their advantages and disadvantages . if you want something more stable and not very powerfull make MEKP , if you want something powerfull but more sensitive ( i don't think you wan't that so much

) than the IP is the thing for you ... anyway , they are peroxides and people should be extremly careful with all explosive peroxides !!!

shadeT - 24-8-2003 at 02:29

what kind of plastic is MEKP going to dissolve ?

try again

Polverone - 24-8-2003 at 06:23

I recall reading of MEKP that the freshly made material seems weaker than what you get if you allow it to stand in open air for a while. I think there may be some water or (more likely) plain MEK dissolved in the fresh MEKP, which evaporates after a while, leaving you with purer, more explosive MEKP. In any case a stick with its tip soaked in MEKP should give a good bang when ignited.

ThuGsta785 - 24-8-2003 at 14:10

I think your right about MEK being disovled in the MEKP. I have MEKP that has been in a closed container for almost 2 months, and I open it every now and then to release the pressure, and it smells like MEK. I have stuck a stick in it about a week ago, and touched it with a flame, and it broke the stick into a bunch of splinters with a loud crack!
So, yes there is probably with out a doubt MEK disolved in the MEKP which makes it not very flame sensative until most of the MEK has evaporated out like you said. This is my first post at this forum, but I usualy post at xinventions forum.

http://www.geocities.com/thugsta785/Explosives.html :cool:

shadeT - 9-9-2003 at 05:51

what are the chances of MEKP detonation while transporting it with a bike ????? i have some MEKP left and i need to get rid of it . i'm meaning to detonate it somewhere where is no people , i live in a preety big place so i have to ride about 1-2 km to get to a nice place .

Polverone - 9-9-2003 at 12:44

If you just want to get rid of it, dissolve it in MEK, xylene, or whatever and then set it on fire or dispose of it down the drain (poor environment!). That should let you dispose of it non-explosively.

MEKP question

leopard - 9-9-2003 at 17:19

I made MEKP for my first time using the instructions in this thread. 50ml of 25% h2o2, 25ml of MEK, 5ml of 93% H2SO4 keeping everything below 5 deg.C at all times. It formed within 2 hours and I extracted 23ml of slightly yellow (my H2SO4 is brown) MEKP with an eye dropper. I was very satisfied with everything but then I proceeded to neutralize the acid by putting the MEKP into 200ml of solution of baking soda. I got lots of thick white foam indicating things were working fine. I let this mix sit overnight and in the morning the MEKP was at the bottom of the mix. I carefully extracted every drop of it with an eye dropper and now only have 12ml ?? Is this loss to be expected? That is my question, otherwise I am very satisfied with the method.

MEKP lose

ThuGsta785 - 15-9-2003 at 14:59

Since you made such a small amount, i would say you lost a good 10 mL when seperating the MEKP from the left over by products, and when neutralizing it. suggestions for when making small amounts is to use the narrowest jar you can find. This will have a smaller amount of MEKP touching the other unwanted liquid, so you wont lose as much when seperating.
http://www.geocities.com/thugsta785/Explosives.html

froot - 28-10-2003 at 08:55

A while ago i made a batch of MEKP and in the process I messed a little and wiped it up with some tissue. Being adventurous and all I lit this tissue. It burned violently but in a controlled manner. It occured to me that this could be a potential rocket fuel, soaked in tissue or something similar with a posative OB it is mouldable and easy! I could be onto something here or am I making a pipe bomb?

Haggis - 28-10-2003 at 12:04

I have some time, and it's about MEKP, so I'll post a mishap that I had with the substance.

A while ago, I prepared a small shaped charge with AN/MEKP just for fun. Well, while I was leaning over to light the fuse on a windy country road, a standoff leg collapsed, spilling MEKP in a fist sized amount onto my knee/thigh. Normally, when a sensitive and toxic explosive is spilled on your leg, one would be worried. I was pissed because I wasted a bunch of MEKP. I dropped the blasting cap in the puddle of liquid and it went off with a pleasant bang. I was with a friend there, and since taking off my pants in front of him would be an uncomfortable situation, I left my pants on, with the soaked MEKP fabric being held against my leg. Then, I suppose eating a package of crackers there couldn't have helped much. An hour later, I noticed that, when burping, I was greeted by the wonderful smell/taste combination of MEKP. It was in my system. Then, I started having slight abdominal pains and my glands in my neck started hurting, along with slight pain in my right temple. I got online, and conversed with a senior member here, who advised me to take as many anti-oxidants as possible. Down to the medicine cabinet. 2 vitamin E pills and 6 vitamin C pills were taken. An hour after the glands stopped hurting. Then, by the next morning, the temple was fine again. However, I had abdominal pains for 3 days. More serious in the morning and when I hadn't eaten lately. Those finally ceased. I am wondering what kind of damage have been brought upon my kidneys, as an online chemicals safety sheet lists MEKP as a 'tumorigen'. Fun! I guess I'll have to wait a few years before I find out what exactly the effects were. I have since lost my interest in MEKP.

Quantum - 4-3-2004 at 19:22

You should have taken your pants off; just run off into the woods or tell him to turn around. The MSDS for MEKP is a bit scary.

May act as a tumorigen. May act as a systemic poison. Harmful by ingestion, inhalation and through skin contact. Very destructive of mucous membranes. Severe irritant. Lachrymator.

Toxicity data
(The meaning of any abbreviations which appear in this section is given here.)
ORL-HMN TDLO 480 mg kg-1
ORL-RAT LD50 484 mg kg-1
IHL-RAT LC50 200 ppm/4h.

I hope you don't suffer any long term effects, Haggis.
MEKP: Fairly safe explosive in the sort run yet a toxic chemical in the long run; you just can't win!

Quantum - 10-3-2004 at 19:33

Chewyguy: We don't talk about using explosives here. We deal only with making them or learning about the chemistry behind them.

chemoleo - 11-3-2004 at 08:11

Good thing you took the vit. C. Do you have an estimate of how much /how many ml of MEPK you got on your trousers? Then, assume that 10% got taken up via your skin.
If you assume that one molecule of MEKP reacts with 1 of Vit C, you probably have a large excess of Vit C - which is good.
Also, there are mechanisms inside cells that destroy the peroxy bonds. Infact, the superoxide radical is made in mitochondria every day and night of your life. I doubt you will get cancer from it, as most carcinogens act during chronic prolonged exposure, and not by a single event like this. So clearly the best is to not to repeat this, and keep your hands off adsorbable peroxides! Keep eating Vit C, this is the best you can do.

Haggis - 11-3-2004 at 08:43

Going from the size of the container, and the size of the spill on my leg, I would say it was about 35ml. This could be assumed that, round about, 3.5ml discovered a pathway into my skin.

The molecular masses of MEKP and Vitamin C are 176.25 and 176.12, respectively. This means that the 3.5 ml translates into2.94 grams and .017 mol, and the 6 grams of ascorbic acid translate into .034 mol. Technically, all the MEKP should be counteracted by the Vitamin C. My only worries are the damage received from the time of contact to the time when the Vitamin C started taking effect. This time is around 2.5 to 3.5 hours. I still have not figured out exactly what it did to me, but I feel healthy and happy now, and there is no noticable ill effects.

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by Haggis]

Sir Dudalot - 15-3-2004 at 15:30

I used 64mL MEK, 40mL ~30% H2O2, and probably 2mL HCl (didn't measure). After letting it sit for 24 hours there was a clear liquid on top, presumably MEKP, and a very cloudy lower layer. I thought I remembered reading that someone had added salt to get the two layers to seperate more so I added around 2g of salt. I confirmed that the top layer was MEKP with a quick burn test on a little soaked on some paper then seperated the layers (seperatory funnel) and added the top layer to 200mL sodium bicarbonate solution. This is where it gets funky. I had about 55mL of MEKP before I added it to the sodium bicarbonate solution but when I put it in it wouldn't seperate out. Around 25mL floated on top (and it was now milky instead of clear like it was previously) and the rest was suspended in the solution. Are the densities really that similiar? MEKP has a density of .86 g/mL...right?

BTW, I hope I'm not breaking any of the forum rules seeing as this is my first post but if I am please let me know for future reference.

madscientist - 29-3-2004 at 22:40

The antioxidants were there to protect your body from damaging free radicals (which peroxides are notorious for producing).

Axt - 18-4-2004 at 19:17

Ive included movies <a href="http://www.geocities.com/roguemovies5/index.html">here</a> of what MEKP videos I had, the first vid shows various compositions sitting on a 2mm mild steel plate, all were initiated with commercial #8 dets for consistancy in 60ml containers, the shots were as follows -

Shot 1: Pure MEKP, plate dent = 26mm

Shot 2: AN/MEKP 9:1, oxygen balanced mix, lightly pressed, hole blown through plate!.

Shot 3: AN/MEKP (40% catalyst) 9:1, MEKP assumed to be in 60% DMP, Slightly Oxygen rich, lightly pressed, plate dent = 25mm

Shot 4: MEKP/NM 1:1 (volume), NM and MEKP seem miscible and compatible, though it failed to detonate, deflagration of MEKP after initiation.

Shot 5: Powergel Magnum 365, commercial explosive used for comparison purposes, known VOD of 4300m/s and effective energy 118%, bulk effective energy 181% (of ANFO). Plate dent = 31mm

<center><img src="http://www.sciencemadness.org/scipics/axt/mekpdenthole.jpg"></center>

The second movie shows an unconfined ignition, drop test of MEKP and a fuse ignited charge.

The drop test figures were as follows (3kg weight) -

MEKP (soaked in cotton): 0-5cm (same as AP!)
AN/MEKP 9:1: >100cm (out of range!)

AN/MEKP looks like the big winner. Performing far better and far less sensitive then pure MEKP, even out classing the commercial explosive, i'll leave you to draw your own conclusions in reference the the known VOD and energy figures. It did surprise me that the AN based comps performed so well considering the small size and minimal confinement.

<center><img src="http://www.sciencemadness.org/scipics/axt/bobom.jpg"></center>

[Edited on 19-4-2004 by Axt]

[Edited on 9-12-2005 by Axt]

froot - 16-6-2004 at 09:37

I produced MEKP a few months ago and i'ts been lying around ever since using it for the toothpick party trick every now and then. It seems to be storage stable but now after so long I handle it with the greatest care. As an indication of it's sensitivity I shot about half a pen cap full in Al foil with a pellet gun. It detonated, and suprisingly powerful. That was about 1,5ml of MEKP.

I've attempted to attach a picture and if you can see it you'll see whats left of a cardboard beer crate. On the crate at the bottom is a replica of the culprit from Al foil with the MEKP inside. It was hanging about an inch from the cardboard. There's an egg on the right as a size reference.

I thought I'd share this to help show how lethal even MEKP can be. Imagine that was your hand. Please be careful.

DSC00056.JPG - 68kB

My two cents on MEKP

Mickhael - 17-11-2004 at 21:37

Ok, just a couple things I have read up on MEKP.

#1 MEKP (ADMEKP) does not need to be deacidified according to a knowledgable person on the E&W forum, I haven't tested this out, but he made a good case of how leaving the acid reactive actually helped the explosive.

#2 The making of ADMEKP + TAP at the same time seems to be the simplest and most powerful/safe explosive peroxide I have heard of so far, it remains in complete liquid form if left to sit in the 0 to 10 degree overnight.

#3 MEKP needs to be confined or at least obsorbed into something, and then ignited or struck for any detonation to occur.

Thats all for now...hope I'm not repeating to much that everyone already knows, I'm new to this forum, however I have read through the E&W forum for monthes now, gleaning information.

[Edited on 18-11-2004 by Mickhael]

[Edited on 18-11-2004 by Mickhael]

Isopropyl peroxide

AngelEyes - 18-11-2004 at 04:26

What is this exactly?
It was referred to in an earlier post but all I can find on google are references to Isopropyl ether peroxide.

Is this material something that can be made form Isopropyl alcohol? Maybe the same acid / H2O2 bath that one might use for MEK et al?

Question on peroxides

Mickhael - 21-11-2004 at 15:00

Ok, just out of curiousity, and since i can't seem to find the info anywhere, what are the dangers/safe mixes of peroxides? I have heard MEKP+AP is workable, but since there are so many types, I was wondering what the chemical mixablity of the others together is? Like MEKP+IP?...among others, does anyone have experience with that?

Ps: Yes I have searched and read through alot of info...and unless i'm completely blind or haven't searched enough, theres not many answers out there...as of yet.

lefty - 23-11-2004 at 03:11

Ok, let me get this straight, NH4NO3 can be sensitized by catalyst grade MEKP?

What kind of impact sensitivity would this have?

Taaie-Neuskoek - 23-11-2004 at 09:26

Please look 5(!) posts above yours...I quote mr. Axt:

Quote:

AN/MEKP 9:1: >100cm (out of range!)
AN/MEKP looks like the big winner. Performing far better and far less sensitive then pure MEKP, even out classing the commercial explosive, i'll leave you to draw your own conclusions in reference the the known VOD and energy figures. It did surprise me that the AN based comps performed so well considering the small size and minimal confinement.

lefty - 23-11-2004 at 10:51

Ok, before you blow any rings off your pistons, the reason I asked was because I wanted clarification, that's all...

Also, if you'll re-read my post, you'll notice I was asking about the suitability of "catalyst grade MEKP" IE the type usually used in fiberglass working.

Before you waste bandwidth trying to justify yourself... consider waiting until someone who knows, and is here in the spirit of cooperative information sharing, answers the question.

[Edited on 23-11-2004 by lefty]

chemoleo - 23-11-2004 at 11:09

Well well, dimethylphtalate is normally added to hardener MEKP, with the EXPLICIT purpose of reducing shock sensitivity.
So yes, your sensitivity of the AN mix will decrease, but it will be obviously still greater than just ANFO for instance, as DMP is still 'fuel', if you like, while the remaining MEKP (around 30% or so I think) adds in terms of sensitivity. Might be worth a try anyway - although i think hardener is quite expensive.

lefty - 23-11-2004 at 11:38

Thank you Chemoleo

I was curious because the facility I work at used to have a fiberglass process and I am in charge of disposing of hazardous wastes here. I have about 2 gallons of catalyst grade MEKP to get rid of.

I'd hate to see it wind up in a landfill... but I have to be careful because I also like to stay as legal as possible.

I'm starting to get way off topic, but I wonder if this mixture would be sensitive enough to use as exploding targets, which can be made and used legally.

I hope that's not too "practical" as opposed to "theoretical."

Supposing I made some MEKP?

Mickhael - 11-12-2004 at 09:00

I have an awesome old freezer that goes to -20C! which is super for peroxide forming, so i carefully made a small batch (200ml aprox. total liquids) of MEKP, and have left it now in the freezer for about 15 hours, now I have a 5/8" layer of a clear heavy liquid on the bottom, and 1 1/4" of a milky lighter liquid floating on top...from other sythns I've read the layers usually float the other way around...which one is the MEKP? I'll do my own tests, but I thought I'd ask anyway, i used:

69ml MEK
90ml 35% H2O2
30ml 31.5 % HCl

Update:

Its been 24 hours, inbetween which I transfered the mixture into a small glass, and then left it in the freezer, which remained around -10C, nothing froze. Upon removing from the freezer, i tested the top cloudy layer and confirmed it to be MEKP by hitting about 1 drop on a cotton ball lightly with a hammer, it popped quite loudly, and then I noticed there was a bit still on the cotton, so I smacked it again, and it popped even louder!

So...end result: around 120ml of MEKP produced out of 189ml liquid...excelent yield in my opinion. Still cloudy for now, but I'll wait to see if it clears. Quite happy with the power, since barely a drop made two loud bangs. Will try it in some BC's shortly.

[Edited on 12-12-2004 by Mickhael]

JohnWW - 12-12-2004 at 16:34

In 1982 I worked for a short time between regular jobs for a small firm which made fiberglass (glass reinforced polyester) boats, mostly, using steel-reinforced molds made of the same material. 1,end-diols, generally ethylene glycol, were reacted with 1,end-dicarboxylic acid (which may have included terephthalic acid), to produce the polyester, which was spread over the inside of the molds in successive layers (coated beforehand with carnauba wax to prevent adhesion) into which the fibers (kevlar, nylon 66, and mats of short-strand glass fiber, usually alternating) were immersed using small hand-rollers. The fiber-filled polyester was allowed to set. The process was repeated several times usually, irregularities being ground off after setting.

When the main reagents were mixed, small quantities of methyl isobutyl ketone peroxide, which has a strong, penetrating, characteristic smell, and usually also cobalt(II) naphthenate (a magenta-colored liquid) were added as catalysts. The catalysts and reagents are described in, for example, http://www.specialchem4polymers.com/tc/Organic-Peroxides-Cur... , http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterialText.asp?bassnu... , http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Se... , http://patents.nimblewisdom.com/patent/6635213-Method-of-pro... .

Slight mistake in post...

Mickhael - 15-12-2004 at 17:07

Ok, to my horror, I realized after a bit more testing, that I made a mistake in the layer checking, the bottom, heavy clearish layer, was the actual MEKP, and there was an almost invisably thin layer on the top of the waste layer (upper, water-like milky layer) that fooled me into thinking it was the MEKP to start with...so to clarify...the bottom, heavy fluid was the MEKP...high quaility yeild as far as i can tell, but only about 60ml yeild, rather then the above stated amount, I have not nutrilized it whatsoever, as I understand it is not needed, after a few days, about another Teaspoon full of MEKP appeared in the waste fluid which I had saved, leading me to believe, there was still some reactions going on, both the waste and MEKP product, did not freeze in a number of hours in below -10C. Also of note, about half a dropfull, made two loud bangs when soaked into some cotton and struck with a hammer on a steel plate. Powerful stuff for newbies, so be careful people!

weird reaction with H2O2 and MEK

Hideki Matsumoto - 19-12-2004 at 00:11

alright here one for the MEKP nuts...
I just got some MEK chilled (-10c) and added it in the correct proportions to chilled H2O2. the result was an instant clouding. I then added 2 drops of HCl and then the temp climbed, and an oily translucent-white material floated to the surface. The bottom layer was white. what happend?

I havent tested the material just yet.. this is the trimeric version of mekp? or what is it? photo coming soon.

Axt - 19-12-2004 at 00:30

MEKP is slightly heavier then water, thus will sink in it, but because of MEK contaminants and the solutes in the water, MEKP will most likely be the top layer. Let it sit a few hours, extract the top layer then evaporate it free of any MEK. MEKP itself isnt very volatile, compared to MEK.

I prefer the red dyed MEK, looks nice and extraction is easier

hmm...

Mickhael - 19-12-2004 at 02:18

Mine was perfectly clear, and oily, while the waste liquid was yellowish...also most of my MEKP was on the bottom, a thin layer on top, but when I added a bit of salt and stirred the mixture, all the MEKP went instantly to the surface...much easier to get at that way...since my silly metal syringes react instantly with the MEKP when I try to extract it from the bottom...which makes me nervous since I don't know if it could decompose because of that

I've also yet to deacidify my MEKP, and it seems stable so far...maybe it really doesn't need the water/bi carb/ammonium wash like has been said on E&W?

Ps: How do I post photo's? I know the answer is probly around...I just wondered if theres a quick and easy answer someone could tell me...ty.

[Edited on 19-12-2004 by Mickhael]

Joeychemist - 19-12-2004 at 02:39

Mickhael

To add pictures to you're posts, you go to post you’re reply, if you look above the window where you type you’re posts you will see a little box with a mountain and a sun on it. Click on that.

IMHO, when dealing with explosives one should always neutralize the acid let behind if possible (there are exceptions though like picric and picramic acid). It is absolutely necessary when you’re mixing explosives with other explosives.

[Edited on 19-12-2004 by Joeychemist]

[Edited on 19-12-2004 by Joeychemist]

Rosco Bodine - 19-12-2004 at 06:11

Has anybody tried the coprecipitation of the liquid mixed peroxide product of AP / MEKP , which has improved properties over MEKP alone ? Simply use a 50/50 by volume mixture of MEK and acetone , and the product which forms overnight in the cold is a dense clear liquid which settles to the bottom . The AP dissolved in the MEKP excludes moisture nicely and residual acid is for the most part excluded also , so the product separates directly in pure form and high yield , as a more dense and powerful composition than MEKP alone . The dissolved AP does not crystallize out of the mixture on storage even at low temperatures .

I see...

Mickhael - 19-12-2004 at 22:28

Ah, so even MEKP, youd recamend always removing the acid eh? I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the heads up on photo posting...and whats IMHO mean? sorry...haven't figured that one out yet.

rosco: I haven't tried the AP/MEKP mix yet, but i'm planning on it, as soon as i get my magnetic mixer working and have figured the best way for deacidfying the mixture (I certainly don't plan on fooling around with not removing the acid from anything containing AP!! LOL) I will try to start using my website for some explosive videos and pictures soon as well...so i can post visual results.

[Edited on 20-12-2004 by Mickhael]

Ps: Does anyone know how MEKP reacts with Nickrome wire? I like to use it in my electric ignitors, but if its going to react with my MEKP then I'll have to use another method...

[Edited on 20-12-2004 by Mickhael]

Just did another batch of MEKP at -6.3c .. samething

Hideki Matsumoto - 20-12-2004 at 00:08

Wow, this is getting weirder and wierder... Everytime I make MEKP the moment I add H2O2 to MEK @ -1 to -6c the solution instantly clouds to a translucent whitish without the Catlyst HCl @ ~35%.. wow ... this is so strange!!

I added My 15ml of HCL, and the solution is a little bit more cloudy.. but still translucent.... hmmm
Yet it detonates upon hard impact like a primer. I will have to see when my reaction is completed..
I do have an oily layer at the bottom of the flask but it is insensitive to flame, shock and will not detonate in a 9:1 with AN...

[Edited on 20-12-2004 by Hideki Matsumoto]

Wires

Tweenk - 30-12-2004 at 09:23

The nichrome wire reacts with MEKP as metals reacts with all organic peroxides (decomposition over time, may lead to detonation). Paint your wire with something to prevent this problem.

Painting wire...

Mickhael - 31-12-2004 at 05:10

Any suggestions as to what I could paint on that wouldn't end up either desolving or reacting with the peroxide?

Why paint the wire???

Joeychemist - 2-1-2005 at 00:01

You want to paint the wire??? Why? I suppose there are many things one could use, (maybe a nitro cellulose lacquer might be a starting place) but there are easier ways my friend, what are you using for blasting caps as of now? It is not hard to make a waterproof none metal blasting caps and you can still use you’re nicrome wire without having to “paint” it.

I like to use PVC piping as a container and for confinement, I seal the one end closed with epoxy resin then fill the pipe with sawdust or tp, then fill with MEKP. I use blasting caps made from hand rolled paper tubes (like firecracker tubes) and water proof them with plastic baggies and shower caulking. I use the same caps for all my liquid explosive blasting operations. Use you’re imagination

[Edited on 2-1-2005 by Joeychemist]

Why paint...because

Mickhael - 2-1-2005 at 14:17

I usually make a loop or strand of nickrome wire directly through my cap or container, which is usually 1/2" plastic waterline (3" piece), since I find its easy to seal, as well as drill holes in for anything. So that makes my wire contact the peroxide directly, how do you seperate your wire and still make it effective? I suppose I could just make a BP charge on top and seperate it by wax from the MEKP...and ignite that...hmmm.. any other suggestions?

I have also used PVC and caulking to seal ends up, and i find it works great...I also have some slow burn ignitor fuse...but it has a metal core, so i don't know if it would be any safer to have emmersed in the MEKP...

lefty - 3-1-2005 at 05:59

you use sawdust to absorb the MEKP?

interesting

Does that have any effect on its sensitivity to mechanical shock?

fatkangaroo - 28-1-2005 at 14:42

I attemped this experiment and failed miserably. I wanted to add to the thread the importance of using pure MEK. There is nothing on this detail so far. I bought pvc pipe cement - the only product the store carried that contained a decent % of MEK.Which has on the label Methyl Ethyl Ketone 30 - 60% Cyclohexanone 10 - 30%. I knew it was no good the second it was poured in the jar-way to thick. Kept going and added the peroxide and the glue just thickened into a big jelly blob. Chucked it out and will to find a pure source of MEK.

Joeychemist - 28-1-2005 at 19:44

Quote:

Originally posted by lefty
you use sawdust to absorb the MEKP?

interesting

Does that have any effect on its sensitivity to mechanical shock?

Yes it has a definite effect on shock sensitivity. Liquid explosives are generally hard to initiate, by soaking it into something like sawdust and giving confinement with slight tamping makes a big difference in terms of sensitivity to mechanical shock.

Mumbles - 29-1-2005 at 14:21

It's because the liquid can't move around. As a liquid it has the property of conforming to the shape of it's container. In this case the container is a steel plate and a hammer. The liquid spreads out on striking making it much less suseptible to detonation, or just detonation directly under the hammer. When soaked into a solid it's ability to change it's location is much less reduced and thus detonates easier. There is more friction too.

fatkangaroo - 29-3-2005 at 04:12

Just tried the Mr Anonymous MEKP/AP experiment.
I have never made MEKP before so I cant tell if AP was in there somewhere or not.
The MEK mixed perfectly with the acetone, and I could not tell what was acetone and what was MEK.
After reading the thread I thought the top layer was the MEKP/AP. In my case it was the bottom layer.
Gave a drop the hammer smash it went off but no bigger bang than the the same amount of AP by itself.
The thing was the same tiny drop exploded 4-5 times. I mean I hit it with a hammer it went bang so I hit the same spot, it went bang again and so on.
Same thing happened with a match stick except I used flame.
The mixture was very thin I expected I lot thicker. But I left some uncovered in a jar overnight this amount has thickened right up. Is it best to let it thicken up uncovered or use as?
I didnt bother with washing it, just removed the top layer and kept the rest.
There is no nice orange fireball when a small drop is touched with a flame, just a bang.
The stuff I have sinks in water with in seconds.
I also added some to KNO3 and it mixed in fine. No bubbling or gases coming off.
Anyone else tried this?
Just have been mucking around with it and IMHO this stuff is very dangerous.
Im not sure if its because a didnt wash it or what, this stuff I have is pretty damn sensitive to shock. It given me a bit of a fright. I dipped a skewer about 1 ml in for 1 second and droped it from shoulder hight and it went off !
Dont drop it what ever you do.

[Edited on 29-3-2005 by fatkangaroo]

[Edited on 30-3-2005 by fatkangaroo]

fatkangaroo - 4-4-2005 at 13:16

After deciding that the 50/50 mix was to sensitive I am going for 80% MEKP and 20% AP. I took a lovely bunch of photos but cant put them up to save my life.
Another way of making this could be make MEKP first then add X amount of grams of AP. At least then you would know how much AP is in there. I tested the mixed peroxide by itself and mixed with KNO3. The pure stuff is very powerful. The KNO3 mix was only fired with a fuse and it was a dud, it went off but not very strong more of a fizz than a bang. The KNO3/MEKP/AP detonates with a medium strength hammer blow .I really like these mixed peroxides but I really dont trust them. The yields are very very nice . I believe in the pure form its way to sensitive to transport. My testing sight is a good 15 minute drive and there is no way I would have it in the car with me in pure form. Going to try a 10% mixed peroxides with 90% AN mix just like the plain MEKP/AN brew and see how it goes. Hopefully mixed with AN I will get at least something thats transportable.

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