Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide

Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide

Pages: 1 2 3 4

chemoleo - 4-4-2005 at 17:05

Interesting.
The unstable/sensitive nature of the mixed peroxide suggests to me that you have neither one of the species, i.e. it is NOT a mixture of AP/MEKP, instead it's a 'new' compound that has intermolecular crosslinking etc; a compound which is thermodynamically LESS stable than either of the respective high-stability species (AP/MEKP). High stability is relative here, of course.
Essentially it is a new compound, whose structure is likely to vary according to the ratios of AP and MEK.
I do wonder how mixed peroxides of acetylacetone (pentadione), others and MEK/acetone would behave. This result suggests there is potential for new compounds to be discovered! They may not be that different in physical properties (i.e. all are explosive, all rel. sensitive) but their structures are likely going to differ between different ratios and so on.

[Edited on 5-4-2005 by chemoleo]

Rosco Bodine - 4-4-2005 at 18:41

IMO ...

The 50/50 MEKP/AP liquid is not unstable ,
not overly sensitive , not thin but syrupy ,
not a distinct compound but a solution of
trimeric AP in dimeric MEKP , and best made by coprecipitation exactly the way it was described .

chemoleo - 4-4-2005 at 18:52

What's the evidence for independent 'coprecipitation'? Somehow I cant believe that acetone and MEK would react seperately/independently (being extremely similar in nature - the difference being a single CH3 group), while not reacting with each other to form some crosslinked compounds of unknown overall composition.
Anyway. Did you try the 20:80 mix? I'd be surprised if fatkangoroo made it up just like that. Same holds for you i guess.
I haven't done this myself though, so I won't judge either way

[Edited on 5-4-2005 by chemoleo]

Rosco Bodine - 4-4-2005 at 19:08

There has been reference to mixed
organic peroxides and the behavior of
50/50 MEKP/AP is consistent with what
has been published .

I don't mean to start a flame war , but I
do doubt that chubbyroo even made the
stuff , and especially the part about the
dropped skewer .

Look , I have a half liter of the stuff which has been sitting quietly in storage , cool and dark , for nearly two years with no sign of decomposition .

fatkangaroo - 4-4-2005 at 19:19

I followed the instructions, only difference being I used 50% peroxide and 30% hydrochloric.
To say I didnt do it and made the story up is a bit rude I think. I have better things to do.
The skewer story is very true.
I use the Aussie pink MEK so when the 2 are added I just a perfect pink mix. I stirred everything well. The whole reaction never went above 10.C.
The MEK was 100% the Acetone 100% peroxide 50% Hydrochloric 30% so thats pretty pure in my book. I have made normal AP many times. So its up to someone else to give a third opinion before we start calling names OK.

Rosco Bodine - 4-4-2005 at 19:36

Well the product I got was syrupy and very shiny , almost silvery in appearance ,
and it did not go bang when ignited but
did deflagrate with the characteristic orange fireball , even when a ml or two
was ignited . There was no undue sensitivity to the hammer test on a drop
soaked into a small ball of cotton , maybe
a bit more sensitive than straight MEKP .

So you are three for three in describing different properties for a product made from pink MEK , and using 50% H2O2 instead of 27% H2O2 .

It has to be be the mysterious pink component factor , no other answer

Try diluting your H2O2 to 30% with distilled water and then see what you get .

Maybe shake your pink MEK with some activated charcoal powder and filter it to
see if you can get the colorless form .

One more thing , the formation of the MEKP is initially more rapid than the AP , so at first the precipitate is richer in MEKP and thinner , but it gets more and more viscous with time of reaction as it becomes more and more loaded with dissolved AP which forms more slowly
as the reaction mixture stands .

How well does that square with "followed the instructions" ?

[Edited on 5-4-2005 by Rosco Bodine]

fatkangaroo - 4-4-2005 at 21:57

Well I let the reaction go 20 hours. All the chems were put into frezzer before addition. First I let the MEK/Acetone mix together for 1 hour then slowly indroduced the peroxide making sure the temp didnt go over 10.C. Stirred that all up and let it sit for 1 hour. By this stage the mix was -5.C. Then the hydrochloric was added watching the temp at all times. Everything was given a good stir left to do its thing.
I always use 50% peroxide when making AP and HMTD and never had a problem. What has the % of peroxide got to do with it? Whats the colouring in the MEK got to do with anything? My stuff is red and about the same viscosity of motor oil. There is no need to tell storys when it comes to this stuff as its so piss easy and OTC that the truth will come out no matter what.

Rosco Bodine - 5-4-2005 at 06:25

Seriously , the dye is the only thing which I can think of which would account for the unusal sensitivity you are reporting .

Precooling the mixed ketones and peroxide separately before mixing and
then mixing them all together cold is good
procedure . And then if there is any significant warming , cool the mixture very cold again before beginning the initially
small additions of HCl . Your 50% peroxide is going to require slower initial
addition of the HCl because the initial exotherm is going to be increased compared to 27% peroxide . It is okay to
permit the initial reaction to rise to 25 C ,
and suspend additions of the HCl until the
initial exotherm subsides , then resume additions of HCl until all is added and let the mixture sit in the melting ice water bath . The precipitate of mixed AP/MEKP
should be viscous and syrupy when cold ,
although it is thinner at toom temperature , about like motor oil .

You can increase the amount of acetone relative to MEK in the original mixture ,
until you start getting undissolved crystals
of AP floating like little icebergs in the surface of the lower layer of mixed peroxides . Note the ratio of acetone to MEK which produces the effect and then you can reduce the amount of acetone in
subsequent syntheses until you get a liquid precipitate free of solids . The idea
is to get a solution of mixed AP/MEKP which doesn't crystallize out AP when cold . The ratios given by Mr. A are about right for the mixed peroxide product from
reaction using 27% peroxide . But you may be getting a slightly different composition of mixed peroxide from the reaction using 50% peroxide , and may need to adjust the acetone/MEK ratio to
obtain an identical product .

When you describe making multiple hammer strikes on the same wet spot of
mixed peroxide , getting a little bit to go off each time , that sounds about right .

Strange isn't it how that kind of impact wouldn't cause the entire wet spot to
go off , but the impact of a skewer wetted
with a little of the of the same wet stuff
would go off when simply dropped to the floor . I just have real difficulty reconciling the contradiction of what is
being represented there because it doesn't add up .

fatkangaroo - 5-4-2005 at 12:49

I stand by everything I have said. The skewer was dropped just once, it probably would have gone bang again if I put a flame to it or hit it with a hammer. I didnt care about that, all I wanted to know is would it go off if I dropped it. I did the dropping skewer test 5 times and it went off 4/5 times. I dont why you would suggest I never even tried the experiment, its not like its very hard or expensive to perform. No special glass no heat. To easy.
Now its up to someone else to give a opinion.

Rosco Bodine - 5-4-2005 at 13:32

Quote:

Originally posted by fatkangaroo
The skewer was dropped just *once*, it probably would have gone bang again if I put a flame to it or hit it with a hammer. I didnt care about that, all I wanted to know is would it go off if I dropped it. I did the dropping skewer test 5 times and it went off 4/5 times.

Please clarify how you can do a test "just once" but also do the same test 4 or 5 times . Never mind , I understand now you mean one drop per test , in several repetitions resulted in explosions on the first drop . I just don't get that sort of silver fulminate sensitivity from the
genuine AP/MEKP sample material which I have . To get that sort of sensitivity you would have to have some different organic peroxide or other impurity in the composition you made .

Quote:

I dont why you would suggest I never even tried the experiment, its not like its very hard or expensive to perform. No special glass no heat. To easy.

The reason I would suggest such a suspicion is because I am a trained observer , and two problems arise in your decription of what you have observed . #1 , What you report having observed does not square in several respects with what I have observed consistently several times about a synthesis which was devised and reported originally by me . And #2 , you contradict yourself in what you report , perhaps without even realizing it that you
are making inconsistent statements .

Quote:

Now its up to someone else to give a opinion.

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion ,
only some folks don't make any distinction between opinion and observation. In a science forum it's good to make the distinction between what's done and what's thought about or theorized .
It's good to repeat an experiment to confirm results before making conclusions anyway .

Oh and BTW , I still don't believe any of it what you reported . But that's just the opinion of the person who invented the composition and has made it several different times .

Update : I just retested some of my original sample which was made over two years ago by the date on the bottle and it
appears and behaves exactly the same way as when originally made . A small ball of paper towel wetted with a drop explodes when tapped fairly hard with an ordinary claw hammer , a little more of a tap than would be used to position a 16 D nail , a lighter tap just splatters the material . A wetted skewer was Zero for Three drops from 6 feet onto either steel or concrete , but would crackle and pop feathering the end of the skewer when touched by a flame . Ten drops of the liquid soaked into a 8 mm ball of paper towel and ignited by flame only deflagrated with an orange flash .
A drop wetting steel directly would detonate numerous times from repeated
blows as the hammer was angled slightly to expose a fresh wetted spot to the next blow .

That dropped skewer test you reported is such an unlikely sensitivity anomaly , I'd really like to see the video .

[Edited on 5-4-2005 by Rosco Bodine]

fatkangaroo - 5-4-2005 at 15:23

I will the first to admit I am no chemist. And I can admit you know I lot more that me on the subject. But the fact is I tried your mixed peroxides its was very sensitive. So what? I dont care if you believe me or not , time will tell.

Rosco Bodine - 5-4-2005 at 15:32

Maybe there is something strange about Australian MEK .

And the " so what " is that I carefully report accurate data from my experiments , and when that doesn't square with what happens when somebody else tries to repeat and confirm the results , then I want to know what is the reason .

Mickhael - 5-4-2005 at 16:20

I'll just comment on the fact that fatkangaroo's MEK sounds quite different from mine, which is 99.9% pure from a local science company, mine is thinner then water...very clear liquid, very much like my acetone in fact, I can't tell the difference except that the MEK is REALLY strong smelling! So there you have it...his is thick and pink...theres gotta be some serious additives.

chemoleo - 5-4-2005 at 16:27

I agree that the skewer result is odd. Fatkangoroo could you please test your stuff another way, in terms of sensitivity? One that is more 'scientific'?
There may be factors you (fatkangoroo) are not aware of. Skewer, what is it, apiece of metal (like chicken skewers

). Maybe the mix reacted with it, due to left over acid, sensitised it whatever.
I believe him though. He's not the Hideki Matsumoto type. He must have done something slightly differnet that he omitted to mention. Becasue he finds an anomaly doesn't mean he lies as a result.
Oh well. As usual, a third person doing it with australian MEK & using his conc. 50% H2O2 would be good.

Rosco, you mention references on the acetone/MEK co-peroxidation. Would you like to point some out? I am not convinced that the peroxidation occurs separately, to form MEKP and AP, but no intermolecular products of unknown composition.

Smell of MEK:
I just had a sniff at pure reagent grade MEK (2-butanone), and to me it smells exactly like acetone, with possibly a very very slight acid like touch. It is also very fluid, definitely less viscous than water, and physically no different from acetone. If someone set two containers in front of me, one containing acetone, the other MEK, I couldn't tell them apart.

[Edited on 6-4-2005 by chemoleo]

Rosco Bodine - 5-4-2005 at 16:51

IIRC there's a patent reference and I'll dig it up later . I think I've posted it before in another thread .

Anyway , before the coprecipitation method I actually did perform separate syntheses for the AP and MEKP and then
dissolve the AP in the MEKP with warming to produce the same product . But I found it rather pointless and inefficient
and the yields lower and wasted steps
of manipulation which was all eliminated
by simply coprecipitating the desired mixed peroxides . I experimented with
the ratio of acetone to MEK to produce
a solution of AP in MEKP that is almost but not quite saturated .

The bona fide genuine AP/MEKP is not unduly sensitive or I wouldn't have shared the information knowing someone would get hurt fooling with the stuff .
Anyway , I stand by the synthesis and the
reported properties , for what is a useful
but experimental composition . I suppose
I should be a bit troubled when along comes someone with dubious reports about "extreme sensitivity" for a composition where that has not been my experience . I want the facts stated plainly , and any anomalies accounted for ,
rather than for rumor or false report to prevent others from interest in a valid composition .

chemoleo - 5-4-2005 at 17:03

Ah, so that's what it is about... don't worry we'll see to your reputation

Anyway, you raise an interesting point when you dissolved AP in MEK. Since AP reaches a saturation limit when dissolving it in MEKP, using a large excess of acetone vs MEK would produce a liquid with AP crystals appearing, or a liquid that'd crystallise upon standing, or a wet waterinsoluble solid.
Is this the case, that is the question? How does the appearance of AP crystals in MEKP (at a given ratio acetone/MEK) correlate with the solubility of separately prepared AP in MEKP? The values should be the same. Else some additional reacitons are going on.

I am looking foward to the references.

Rosco Bodine - 5-4-2005 at 17:13

The solubilities generally correlate regardless of the method . However
it is one hell of a lot easier to get the saturated solution by coprecipitation
and it is the only way to get a supersaturated solution , which is actually
a quasistable eutectic without resorting to
unsafe melting operations . And if you supercool the solution and seed it , a lot of AP will indeed crystallize out .

Try GB309118 for mixed peroxides by a similar mechanism and coprecipitation .

[Edited on 6-4-2005 by Rosco Bodine]

fatkangaroo - 5-4-2005 at 18:12

The skewers are around 10 inches long and made from bamboo. They were dipped on the flat end and dropped on concrete.
The MEK goes by the name" Plumbers mate priming pink fluid. Written on the label; 1000ml/L Methy ethyl ketone. No additives of any kind shall be mixed with this priming fluid.Priming fluids shall be used to prepare the jointing surface prior to solvent cement application.
[img]http://www.imagebarrel.com/myimage.php?img=05/96/03/dav016jpg[/img]

[Edited on 7-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]

fatkangaroo - 6-4-2005 at 21:20

Go here for some photos of my chems for anyone interested.
www.albumtown.com
name: freddy
Password 1234abc
The photos are pretty bad but you get the idea.

Mickhael - 6-4-2005 at 22:43

I'm sure this is something most people know...however the primers that I use at work, usually have some THF along with is it "cyclo-something"? mixed in with the primer...could this be causing the differences?

Rosco Bodine - 7-4-2005 at 05:59

The extreme sensitivity is evidently due to
some adulterant in the " primer " which is
most definitely * NOT * pure MEK .

The product should be destroyed immediately because of the potential
for spontaneous decomposition / detonation .

Only pure precursors should be used for
the synthesis .

AP and MEKP are among the most stable of the organic peroxides when pure ,
but are very chemically reactive and can be destabilized / decomposed by contact
or mixture with some other substances .

fatkangaroo - 7-4-2005 at 12:53

I dont think the MEK has anything to do with it. Earlier in the thread Axt tested regular MEKP made from "priming fluid"without any unusual sensitivities. Wouldnt any strange propertiess be carried over to the MEKP if the MEK itself was it fault? I dont find it strange that 2 peroxides mixed together will be more sensitive that a single peroxide on its own.

Rosco Bodine - 7-4-2005 at 16:37

Quote:

Originally posted by fatkangaroo
I dont think the MEK has anything to do with it. Earlier in the thread Axt tested regular MEKP made from "priming fluid"without any unusual sensitivities. Wouldnt any strange propertiess be carried over to the MEKP if the MEK itself was it fault? I dont find it strange that 2 peroxides mixed together will be more sensitive that a single peroxide on its own.

Axt also made some of the mixed peroxide , possibly using the same
" primer " instead of actual MEK , and
in an e-mail told me about it being suspected of spontaneously deflagrating and causing a brush fire . Now you can store a contaminated batch and await the potential fire and or explosion . But when it happens don't argue that it is due to the instability of a pure AP/MEKP composition , because that isn't what you are observing . For safety reasons you should not store that contaminated batch .

Axt - 7-4-2005 at 17:20

I wouldn't be so quick to point at the MEK source, there are other chems involved especially the source of HCl which I guarantee isn't pure. Diggers HCl contains what I believe to be dissolved Fe salts which may have an undesirable catalytic effect on the peroxide product, or even in its formation.

I can't remember the HCl I used which resulted in the experiance as told above, but I was using clear primer, no dyes, marked 1000ml/L MEK, and it was AP added to MEKP, not coprecipitated. The MEK was a different brand to yours Fatkangaroo, though could of course be derived from the same source. Heres a couple types I have sitting around, there is another available here as well.

<center><img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~58717/pulse.altlist.com/banners/mek.jpg"></center>

The fire was caused by 50% H2O2 falling onto dry grass as its bottle was puntured by <i>something</i> during the "explosion" which didn't even shatter the beaker in which it was contained. It was a very odd incident, for which I cannot give an explanation.

fatkangaroo - 7-4-2005 at 17:21

I threw that useless shit away days ago. Kept 25ml for playing with. Well boo hoo for me. Guess I wont be making any.
Whoops didnt see your post Axt. Well different hydrochloric aye. Not a problem I know where to get another brand. I will give it another shot and see how I go. I have only attemped this twice so third time lucky

[Edited on 8-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]

Rosco Bodine - 7-4-2005 at 18:15

Solvent MEK is usually available along with
acetone , toluene and other solvents at
boating and marine supply businesses that carry fiberglass fabric and resins .

Water clear muriatic acid free of iron is
a swimming pool supply item . If sulfuric
is tried as a substitute , the electrolyte
grade of sulfuric is by necessity an exceptionally pure grade , though diluted
form of sulfuric . Unused battery electrolyte has to be extremely pure to
prevent the plates of a battery from being
poisoned or corroded and decreasing the
battery life . So battery electrolyte is
very near or at pharmaceutical grade purity .

fatkangaroo - 8-4-2005 at 18:09

OK got some new chems. They can be viewed at the same place as the last lot under bbb. I will put some more up later and will make sure I good picture of the layers when they appear.
I am using the red stuff as I cant get the clear in my area, and I believe its not the problem.

fatkangaroo - 9-4-2005 at 15:20

Its has been done. All the photos are up.
Well it all went a little different this time.
The new acid was a lot cleaner than the diggers brand. The temp shot right up to 30.C the second the acid hit the mix, once it was cooled back to 10.C all further additions went smoothly. Also I got a clear layer this time instead of a dark red layer and a pink layer.
Now I dont want to go jumping to conclusions, so what are the "scientific" methods of testing compositions? I usually go for the hammer smash and skewer drop, but any other suggestions are welcome.
I have done the skewer test with the new stuff. I am afraid to say its pretty much the same as the last lot

. A little less sensitive. It did not go off when dropped from six feet, any higher and the same sad story. When I threw the skewer it went off every single time. I didnt throw it very hard, about the same amount of power you would use to throw a dart. My AP often clumps together into little rocks and I have thrown them so hard at the concrete that they break up into powder again and no explosion. I have thrown them straight up about 10 feet and watched them hit the ground again without explosion. So this is way more sensitive. I can not get it to do the nice fireball, its snap crackle POP.
I am going to try with clear stuff. I have found some in a plumbing supply, its a bit of a hike out to the other end of town but it has to be done.
After changing containers I had somewhat different experence to the last time. Once the peroxides had settled in the new container there was another layer of acid but this time the other way around. AP/MEKP on top acid on bottom. I was very happy about this as I now have a reasonably acid free mixed peroxide. I am now testing the acid free mix and I can say it no longer explodes from being dropped

. Hooray for me. I now think acid-spent peroxide removal has alot to do with the sensitiveness of the final product. I know my previous mixes had left over acid as I could see it. I could not remove it without losing product and I did not think it mattered. I believe that there is some acetone or something still in the mix as it has not thickened up. So I will be leaving it with the lid off to evapourate the ???. Then comes the fun part

[Edited on 10-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]

[Edited on 10-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]

[Edited on 10-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]

Rosco Bodine - 9-4-2005 at 20:00

If you are getting the product as an upper layer and the product is impure ,
cloudy , not a clean separation from the
spent peroxide and acid , then you are
needing to increase your amount of acetone in relation to MEK .

MEKP is the low density product which will
also contain a fair bit of residual moisture
and acidity , unless a lot of AP is dissolved in the MEKP , which drives out the residual moisture and acidity because the AP is much more soluble in the MEKP than is the moisture or acid . AP is also more
dense and makes the AP / MEKP solution
precipitate as the lower layer . The cold
AP / MEKP should be almost completely clear and fairly viscous when cold , not as thick as honey , but syrupy .

Everything you are reporting tends to indicate you are making a mixture too rich in MEKP and too lean in AP .

fatkangaroo - 9-4-2005 at 21:21

First it was the upper layer that needed removing like the photo. The MEKP/AP is the red stuff on the bottom. Then I removed as much as possible with the baster. I used 50%MEK and 50% acetone. The measurments 125ml of each.There was still about a 10mL or 20 that I could not get to. I decided to swap to a thinner jar to see what the layers looked like. When I poured it looked like a hundreds off bubbles trapped inside the mix. When it settled the thats when the change happened. The mix was opposite. I removed the good layer and thats whats I have now.

[Edited on 10-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]

[Edited on 10-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]

fatkangaroo - 10-4-2005 at 13:26

Added some more photos. They are in the same folder as the others under ccc.
The first is a vitamin bottle with straight MEKP/AP. The other is a KNO3/MEKP/AP. It worked very nicely. The last is a man hole cover.
In my honest opinion this stuff is not suitible for pratical use. As a primary its to sensitive. Once its mixed with AN or PN it seems to be OK. It is still to "experimental" for me to trust at this stage. I will be sticking with the tried and true peroxides. It is my view that this stuff should be used by people with experience with the other peroxides. Backpackers should stay away. I played with these mixed peroxides enough to not want to play with them again.
Seeing that I still have plenty of chems and time on my hands I have decided to press on. I have not tested the original MEKP. I am going to make some normal MEKP and some fresh MEKP/AP and do some of my crude tests. Going to test them side by side to gauge the differences between the two fluids. Thats what I really want to know, if the MEKP/AP mix is the same sensitivity wise as regular MEKP. I really should have done this to start with. Whoops.

[Edited on 12-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]

[Edited on 12-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]

fatkangaroo - 19-4-2005 at 13:07

Got around to making MEKP and some MEK/AP at the same time using the same chems. The main differences that I could notice was the MEKP is thicker than the MEKP/AP, the MEKP is much a darker red. Did the skewer drop test and they were not that different, the MEKP/AP being a little more sensitive. One thing that was a little strange when I weighed 5ml of the MEKP and 5ml of MEKP/AP using a syringe they both were 5 grams? My scale does not go to points so Im not exactly sure.
Well looks like I was wrong about the MEKP/AP is not to bad, I just got a little ahead of myself there. Those skewer tests made me get all worked up when I now think they dont prove anything. Plus I had never worked with liquid explosive before and I was expecting something different. I got confused trying to understand why I could drop AP but not drop the MEKP/AP. I still dont know why, I thought the liquid "shapeshifted" and was desensitized to impact.

solid MEKP?

Pyro_boy - 26-4-2005 at 08:42

I just made a batch of MEKP but the bottom layer is completely solid! I've never seen this before...
No acetone added...
humm, what form is it?

mars - 25-9-2006 at 03:40

is anhydrous dimeric mekp the same with mekp hardener used as catalysts or initiators for resins?thanks

HOHOLO - 28-9-2006 at 05:52

In fact MEKPO is very comment in my city, we can buy it easily and very cheap.
Anyway,I don't like MEKPO (or MEKP, the same thing).......
It's smell make me sick....once you got something on your hand, that nice smell will follow you more than 3 days although you keep on washing them.....
Furthermore, It is not powerful...if compare with real explosive... ....
If I choose, liquid explosive, I choose NG/EADU but not MEKPO........
but, I suggest that mix it with Nitrostarch may have good result.

mars - 1-10-2006 at 08:15

do you guys know how to prepare the monomeric kind? thanks

Waffles - 30-12-2006 at 03:36

Quick question for anyone who might know what the hell they are doing...I have a heap of MEKP that I want to get rid of in an enjoyable and impressive manner. I was wondering about the combination of a liquid organic peroxides such as this and metal- my plan was to put the explosive inside a steel container and insert my usual aluminum tube detonator (which I fill with primary on the spot, although must epoxy in the container ahead of time). I'm not so worried about MEKP and aluminum, since Al2O3 skin is usually a pretty good barrier for any real reaction taking place, but is it sane at all to put the MEKP inside a sealed steel container? The shrapnel potential scares the bejeezus out of me. I would be filling it with the MEKP no more than maybe 8 hours before detonation, which is a relatively short time compared to the shelf life of a lot of this stuff, but if the peroxide/steel reaction is immediate, it is WAY too long...

I was thinking maybe I should varnish the inside of the container first (pour the varnish in, shake it around, pour it out, and let the thing dry under a lamp) using either clear nail polish or polyurethane, but would the MEKP dissolve these?

Is this just a horrible idea in general? I have tupperware that I can use to contain it, but I don't think it would detonate anywhere near as efficiently without the containment of the rigid steel container (which is MEANT to be pressurized internally). Also, would the MEKP possibly dissolve the tupperware? I've never used this stuff in large amounts, and the information on what it dissolves/reacts with isn't great (reacts with metal in general, dissolves materials that MEK dissolves?)

[Edited on 30-12-2006 by iamthewaffler]

Boomer - 3-1-2007 at 06:32

I would forget this. Period. Or look here: http://nobombs.net/brucel/explosivegraphics.html

Soak it into AN and use a plastic container, it won't make much of a difference with such a sensitive material.

BTW putting the cap in the main charge, THEN filling it with a primary defeats the whole purpose of using a separate cap. I shit myself when pressing the primary on top of a one-gram base charge in the cap. And this is WITH shielding. Just thinking of what you plan makes me shudder. Sounds like bungee jumping with the rubber rope cut 'only' half way through....

photoguy - 12-1-2007 at 11:20

Yikes! MEKP is extremely reactive material and sensitive to shock and friction. Bottom line - MEKP is extremely dangerous - highly reactive, cancer causing agent that can auto detonate. Mixing nitrates with MEKP can make the material slightly more predicatable - but still ANY compression of the material is not recommended!

~TCM~ - 29-9-2007 at 20:30

I know this is an old thread, but I read it entirely and cannot find the exact info I want.
All I want to know is, is it safe to store MEKP in a glass container for say a few weeks.

Antwain - 30-9-2007 at 01:54

Well, I just read the last page and with words like "sensitive" and "auto detonate" I think the answer would be no. Of course, I would never make it in the first place

Totenkov - 16-10-2007 at 08:41

MEKP is fine to be stored for up to about 3 months. MEKP is one of my favourites to fool around with and let soak into a piece of wood. etc. be sure to store it in glass in a dark, cool place. MEKP stores very well. In my experiece, if you treat primaries with respect and don't throw them around you'll be fine.

Be sure to neutralize any remaining acid and wash well with distilled water, thats it.

zeppelin69 - 19-10-2007 at 12:40

In my experince, MEKP really isn't has horrible as the above posts make it out to be. In fact, I find it fairly insensitive to shock (not on the same level as TNT by any means

, but for a primary I feel very safe with it). My only complaints are that it does bleach skin, but if your wearing gloves like you're supposed to, it isnt a problem.

I will also second that it is best used as an "ammonium dynamite".

[Edited on 19-10-2007 by zeppelin69]

~TCM~ - 20-10-2007 at 17:07

Thanks, Totenkov, yes it was in a cool dark place and I had no probs.
It is now one of my favourite primarys to as you can use saw dust as the filler, which you can 100% safely compress the hell out of and then just soak the MEKP into it, when using it alone as a primary.
And zeppelin69 I also soaked some into some ammonium nitrate, at the ratio of 1.1ml MEKP/10 grams NH4NO3. This was detonated with a HMTD cap and it was very impressive.
Also I just wanted to add that it does make a big difference in the quality of the product if you take the time to thoroughly clean it up as Totenkov said. My method takes nearly three days from the start of the reaction to the finished product, including washing, neutralizing and evaporating all traces of MEK and water from the product.
The end result is crystal clear MEKP, that always detonates by fuse, and when 1 drop is soaked into a piece of wood and a flame put to it, the report hurts your ears and it blows a nice chunk out of the wood.
I bring that up as I have heard people saying it is hard to detonate by fuse and that when soaked into wood it just crackles.

[Edited on 21-10-2007 by ~TCM~]

[Edited on 21-10-2007 by ~TCM~]

Totenkov - 21-10-2007 at 10:33

I made a hell of a bang the other day. Really simple:

A block of wood (I used Cedar). Use a spade bit or auger and drill a hole about an inch deep. the drill a smaller hole inside the big one make the hole just big enough to be able to stick in a birthday sparkler. stick the sparkler in at your blasting site and fill the big hole with MEKP and let it soak in, then do it again.

All in all I poured in about 150 mls of MEKP and then poured in a bit more just so the Mg sparks from the sparkler would reach it.

The resulting blast was huge, blowing the block to all hell, there were only small splinters scattered in a 20 meter radius. I managed to get about 80 meters away from the block and still my ears were feeling the heat

.

And yes, MEKP isn't nearly as sensitive to shock as some think. It takes a real good whack with a hammer to go off. I would prefer it over most primaries.

Totenkov - 21-10-2007 at 10:38

Also in reply to one of the above posts, there is a solid form of MEKP. It needs to be made at a much lower temperature. It forms at about -20 degrees. A good primary to make is an acetone/MEK mix. Make it the same way you make AP or MEKP. use equal volumes of both ketones and your going to end up with acetone peroxide suspended in MEKP.

the result is an incredibly powerful primary not as sensative as AP, and makes a great detonator.

sdrawkcab - 21-11-2007 at 19:36

I've recently made some MEKP. I was wondering whether or not it would be possible to synthesize this material without using acid. I noticed that I lost a heck of a lot of it while neutralizing the acid in it. I have a beaker in a constant ice bath right now that's been there for about 4 days now. There is a thin layer of oily substance on top, but I'm wondering if this is just the monomeric form.

I could do some tests, but I'm not sure what I'd be looking for specifically. If I do some tests, I'll post them.

Totenkov - 21-11-2007 at 20:29

No. It will take months to form. You need a strong acid to catalyze the reaction. I let my MEKP sit for 12 hours, 4 days is pointless. Getting the dimer or trimer form depends on the acid you are using. Supposedly with HCl as a catalyst you cannot get the dimmer form. I have never really cared to test it however.

When using H2S04 the d/t is depending on the cooling. Not enough cooling= dimmer form.

I think this is how it works.

sdrawkcab - 21-11-2007 at 21:11

Thanks for the speedy reply.

I wasn't sure how long it would take. I think I heard a couple places that if you don't put acid in an Acetone Peroxide synthesis it will take a week or two to form.

I'm using H2SO4 so I don't need to worry about acid quality (although I am using "Liquid Lightning" drain opener with the buffers in it)

zeppelin69 - 23-11-2007 at 07:08

You may want to consider diluting your acid a bit to about 60%. Adding concentrated sulfuric to AP or MEKP will make an unnerving hissing sound and cause localized heating.

Totenkov, I always use HCl for MEKP, and I never get the mono form. At this point I am also unaware of a trimer, MEKP usualy occurs as mono, dimer, and anhydrous dimer (free of MEK).

[Edited on 23-11-2007 by zeppelin69]

sdrawkcab - 23-11-2007 at 12:51

Yes, I always dilute my H2SO4 for MEKP. I never really worried about it so much with Acetone Peroxide, I didn't have a thermometer and I just added it very slowly.

I made another synthesis of MEKP and it's evaporating excess MEK and water right now. It seems I got a significantly greater yield when I did not add ice to the reaction. A 200 mL reaction (with approximately 47% H2SO4) gave me about 50 mL product.

Considering that my last synthesis had 100 mL of reactants and only 6 mL of yield...I can say that I will not be adding ice to my reaction anymore.

E-tech - 26-11-2007 at 04:17

Just a quick thought-
has anyone tried adding something like guar gum to MEKP (or to the ammonium nitrate they are going to mix it with), in order to increase it's density, and maybe improve it'a handling properties?
Mixing with AN seems to make a good dynamite, perhaps a gelling agent could make a suitable peroxide gel- type of dynamite?
I'd try it myself, but I am still on an all expenses paid trip to somewhere with a lot of sand.

StevenRS - 31-12-2007 at 12:52

Hmm.. First post.. Here goes...
I always had problems with detonating MEKP, until I did this. Put some paper in a blender, and blend it with water until it is pulp. Dry it, and mix it with MEKP. I just mix in paper pulp until it has a fairly thick consistency, and does not flow or drip excess MEKP. This is very easily detonated by flame or electrical ignitors(sp?), even in small amounts.

[Edited on 31-12-2007 by StevenRS]

Sauron - 1-1-2008 at 06:47

Have you ever tried chapati fluor?

StevenRS - 1-1-2008 at 10:43

No, I have not. What exactly is chapati flour? I have never heard of it. Regular all-purpose flour works alright, too.

Rosco Bodine - 1-1-2008 at 13:06

Cabosil , colloidal silica , might be a better material given the reactivity of the MEKP . It's a common item at boating supply stores , used as a fiberglass resin inert filler thickener .

zeppelin69 - 1-1-2008 at 13:47

While inert absorbers are good, and absorbers that burn are slightly better, would something that actualy compliments MEKP's already negetive oxygen balance be even better? IMHO as far as OTC stuff goes, you can't beat ammonium nitrate.

Sauron - 2-1-2008 at 05:08

StevenRS, use the search engine for chapati and you will get an eyeful regarding reports of somt terrorists in UK using a similar mix...allegedly.

~TCM~ - 2-1-2008 at 19:21

Quote:

Originally posted by StevenRS
Hmm.. First post.. Here goes...
I always had problems with detonating MEKP, until I did this. Put some paper in a blender, and blend it with water until it is pulp. Dry it, and mix it with MEKP. I just mix in paper pulp until it has a fairly thick consistency, and does not flow or drip excess MEKP. This is very easily detonated by flame or electrical ignitors(sp?), even in small amounts.

[Edited on 31-12-2007 by StevenRS]

MEKP detonates much more consistantly when it is absorbed into something.
I have had success with saw dust, but as has been previously stated, mixing with NH4NO3 in the correct ratio to achieve a perfect oxygen balance, is IMO by far the best.
However to get MEKP/AN to detonate requires the use of a primary.

[Edited on 3-1-2008 by ~TCM~]

StevenRS - 3-1-2008 at 15:10

Quote:

However to get MEKP/AN to detonate requires the use of a primary.

I was referring to the use of MEKP as a primary, and for this, paper works great as an absorbent, in my opinion, a little better than sawdust.
Also, how would MEKP/AN function in a shaped charge? I have a feeling it would be too slow.

[Edited on 3-1-2008 by StevenRS]

Zinc - 7-1-2008 at 15:50

I heard that at least 12% H2O2 must be used to make MEKP. Is that true or can lower concentrations be used? I have 6% H2O2. So if possible to make MEKP with it what ratios should I use?

StevenRS - 7-1-2008 at 18:30

I tried making MEKP with 6%, and it did not work. I do not know why, though. It might work for you, so still try.

zeppelin69 - 8-1-2008 at 20:39

Quote:

Also, how would MEKP/AN function in a shaped charge? I have a feeling it would be too slow.

[Edited on 3-1-2008 by StevenRS]

Most ammonium nitrate compositions are, with the obvious exceptions of ANNM and astrolite. I think if you use excess MEKP to the AN, you may be able to achieve some decent brisance though. I will more than likely try it out soon and post back with results, if you try it out aswell please do the same

Zinc - 10-1-2008 at 05:30

I tried with 6 % H2O2. I mixed 14 ml of methyl ethyl ketone, 44 ml of H2O2 and 5 ml of 19% HCl. After two days I can see that the mixture turned from blue to turbid white and the smell of MEKP appeared. And there is an extremely thin layer on top of the liquid. I will leave it a few more days. I used ratios from someone who claimed that he made MEKP that way. The problem is perhaps that I didn't use pure MEK but a blue colored mixture that contains water, MEK, isopropyl alcohol and methoxyisopropanol. But the man who gave the ratios also used tat product. I have now acquired 12% H2O2 and will try with that. What ratios would be good for it assuming I use pure MEK?

zeppelin69 - 10-1-2008 at 13:40

The same as those for AP. At twelve percent peroxide, I would use about 2.2 times the volume of MEK so lets say you had 100ml MEK, I would use 220ml 12%H2O2, and of course the catalyst is personal preference, but I would use probably 15ml HCL.

Mason_Grand_ANNdrews - 11-1-2008 at 04:40

Hi Guys, i`ve only a little Question. Why is MEK so interesting ?

You can make a peroxide from all stuff what you can get. Long time ago
i`ve take some samples with different ketones and
the most of this have some nice attributes to make a peroxide.
A longer stuff have some more insensibility, but it`s never mind.
Ethylethylketone is more than shit against acetonperoxide.
A easy stuff (often described in the forum - prepared from aceton/HCl and H2O2).
Every peroxide have other conditions, i mean some aromatics
will work to give a very fine stuff to melt some high explosives into a block.
Do have anyone infos to make a peroxide, f.i. from bezoquinone
or somethink other stuff ?

Zinc - 11-1-2008 at 08:13

Quote:

Originally posted by zeppelin69
The same as those for AP. At twelve percent peroxide, I would use about 2.2 times the volume of MEK so lets say you had 100ml MEK, I would use 220ml 12%H2O2, and of course the catalyst is personal preference, but I would use probably 15ml HCL.

I tried. I let it stand now for around 18 h. And no MEKP. I have acquired 30% H2O2 and will try with that. But I think that it doesn't work because my MEK is impure.

EDIT

It seems that after all some peroxide did form. Small bubbles are visible on the bottom. But I don't know if that is MEKP or IP. Will let it stand one more day.
And what ratios would be good for 30% hydrogen peroxide assuming I use pure MEKP?

[Edited on 11-1-2008 by Zinc]

zeppelin69 - 11-1-2008 at 13:58

I use 1:1 with 27.5% so that shoudl work well with 30% too. What source of MEK are you using?

Zinc - 12-1-2008 at 06:12

Quote:

Originally posted by zeppelin69
I use 1:1 with 27.5% so that shoudl work well with 30% too. What source of MEK are you using?

How much acid do you add?

I use a nail polish remover that contains MEK, isopropanol, methoxyisopropanol, water and a blue color. Someone used the same product and claimed that he did make MEKP from it using 6% peroxide. But I have now found a source of pure MEK and will use it.

[Edited on 12-1-2008 by Zinc]

zeppelin69 - 12-1-2008 at 07:40

The amount of acid will not make or break the reaction. It merely catalyzes it so the more you add, the faster it will go. If you have a 600ml solution, I would use 20ml HCl, or 40% H2SO4, but like I said, it doesn' really matter.

Zinc - 12-1-2008 at 10:33

I have tried now with 30% peroxide. I mixed 15 ml of MEK, 15 ml of peroxide and 5 ml of 19% HCl. Now after around 4 hours there is a nice layer of MEKP on the surface.

I will let it stand one more day.

Zinc - 30-1-2008 at 14:22

I have heard that MEKP and a solution of AP in MEKP do not need to be neutralized and that in fact residual acidity makes them more stable. Is that true? I have 65 grams of 50:50 MEKP/AP sitting in a measuring cylinder so I would like to know what is the safer thing to do before storage.

Rosco Bodine - 30-1-2008 at 15:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Zinc
I have heard that MEKP and a solution of AP in MEKP do not need to be neutralized and that in fact residual acidity makes them more stable. Is that true? I have 65 grams of 50:50 MEKP/AP sitting in a measuring cylinder so I would like to know what is the safer thing to do before storage.

I have a half liter of the 50/50 separated straight from
synthesis , unwashed , no neutralization , put into storage
in a cool and dark location , and showing zero decomposition after several years . No change whatsoever is evident .

497 - 5-2-2008 at 19:58

One day I was bored and happened to have a couple hundred grams 50/50 MEKP/AP so i drilled a 1/4 inch dia hole 8 inches into the center of a nice big log (maybe 1 foot diameter and 2.5 feet long) and filled it with about 10 ml of the good stuff. It ended up blowing each half of the log about 20 feet either direction. More than i had expected.

For fuse I used a couple of feet of string dipped in the explosive, which works surprisingly well, lasting maybe 10-15 seconds. Also more recently I used about 30 ml in a little plastic bottle that i dropped in a hole in the snow. The snow was about a foot deep, it made a crater about 3 feet wide. The moral is that its a great explosive. The only complaint is that the area around the nails of your fingers burns and aches for a few hours after getting some residue on them, even after washing with acetone... well worth the pain anyhow.

StevenRS - 6-2-2008 at 17:39

String soaked in the explosive!?! Maybe I'm missing something, but that sounds suicidal!!!

497 - 6-2-2008 at 19:12

Not really, it just burns. It only detonates when there's a larger quantity confined. I works nicely actually because its oily and not harmed by water. The thicker the string the faster it burns, if its too thin it won't go at all. I would still rather use real fuse but I hate to waste it when I'm just messing around.

E-tech - 12-2-2008 at 13:28

I've often seen testing of liquid energetic materials conducted by absorbing it onto a piece of tissue or cotton, has anyone thought to absorb a larger amount onto a larger piece of cloth, and initiate it as a kind of homemade "sheet explosive"? I wonder if the blast from this easy to make chemical could produce measurable effects... (I.e.: notable damage from the blast wave moving away from the sheet of explosive at a right angle).
Sealing the sheet in a large plastic bag should help to prevent contact with the liquid itself, and provide flexibility to direct the blast wave...........

rbick - 13-2-2008 at 05:57

I actually did conduct a few tests with this very idea in mind. First, I used MEKP on a 8X8 inch piece of linen. I didn't soak it into the cloth until I was at the blasting site. I had however secured a 1g pressed AP cap onto the sheet.

When the time came, I placed the cloth on a piece of plywood and using an eye dropper, soaked it with about 16g MEKP. The detonation was full and punched a whole about the same size as the sheet, maybe a little larger. I have the video on my other computer, and I'll upload them later if I remember...

I also tried this method with 20mL PLX. The cap was .5g AP and 1g ETN pressed into a thick straw. This only achieved partial detonation. If I remember correctly, critical diameter of PLX is somewhere around 1/16th of an inch. Perhaps I needed more PLX and a bigger booster, maybe 2g ETN.

Totenkov - 13-2-2008 at 08:41

I have heard of an "explosive paper" a mixture of MEKP + PETN mixed into mineral oil. An ordinary sheet of paper is dipped into the solution, its allowed to dry, then a blasting cap is taped to the paper. Supposed to be extremely powerful. A little sneeky being that the paper is like any other, you can write on it and crumple it up, just dont drop a book on it!

froot - 13-2-2008 at 12:16

Or send it through a dot matrix printer

StevenRS - 13-2-2008 at 17:10

Quote:

Originally posted by froot
Or send it through a dot matrix printer

Whoo.... Whoo.... That would be awesome...

Has anyone heard about those 3d printers? Use an explosive "ink"
mixed with the UV hardening binder, then add imagination...

[Edited on 13-2-2008 by StevenRS]

12AX7 - 13-2-2008 at 18:00

TNT can be fused safely. I would suppose a standard powder basin, heat fusion type stereolithography machine would be capable of producing interesting shaped charges.

Density wouldn't be great though, and the heat source would have to be carefully tuned to ensure the whole bucket doesn't burn off (let alone go high order).

Tim

Zinc - 12-3-2008 at 14:01

I had a problem with MEKP. I made it with 19% HCl, MEK p.a. and 30% H2O2 p.a. I mixed 20 ml of peroxide with around 20 ml of MEK and around 10 ml of HCl. The majority of MEKP formed in one minute. I let it stand for around 30 min. Then I extracted some MEKP (top layer) and soaked a piece of toilet paper with it. Strangely it only slowly burned. Shouldn't MEKP burn like AP? Them I tried to ignite a few drops of MEKP with a match. I couldn't light it. Then I mixed it with sodium nitrate in a ratio around 50:50, put it in a small plastic bottle with a hole in the cap for the sparkler and tried to ignite it with a sparkler. It only ignited and burned slowly until it extinguished itself. Does anyone know why did the MEKP behave like that?

497 - 12-3-2008 at 17:36

You didn't let it react long enough, you probably still have MEK mixed in to the MEKP. I usually leave it in the freezer overnight to react even though I have 50% H2O2. And wash with water a couple times and then let it dry in a dish for a day or two. BTW I usually use a 50/50 mix of acetone to MEK, it works great and is cheaper. When the reaction is done I have about half the volume taken up by crude MEKP. Battery acid works well as a catalyst too. Good stuff, I just made a bunch of electric caps with it, they work pretty good. I wouldn't bother with mixing it with nitrates... but thats just me.

Zinc - 13-3-2008 at 11:02

Quote:

Originally posted by 497
You didn't let it react long enough, you probably still have MEK mixed in to the MEKP.

That is possible.

Quote:

Originally posted by 497
BTW I usually use a 50/50 mix of acetone to MEK, it works great and is cheaper.

I also always use that but I wanted to make pure MEKP that time instead of MEKP/AP.

StevenRS - 25-3-2008 at 13:11

If I wanted to safely, calmly, chemically decompose some MEKP I didn't want, how could I do this?
I have thought about this, and i am clueless.

tumadre - 25-3-2008 at 13:28

Mix it with some other hydrocarbon and burn it

garage chemist - 25-3-2008 at 13:41

You need a chemical reductant that is capable of reducing peroxides.
Search for methods to purify peroxide-forming solvents like THF and other ethers from peroxides.
One method I remember is to shake the solvent with a concentrated solution of ferrous sulfate.
You could try that with your MEKP- use a cosolvent like ethanol to facilitate mixing of organic and aqueous phase and gently swirl from time to time.

Zinc - 8-4-2008 at 13:42

I have a problem with MEKP. I made it with both 12% and 30% H2O2. Always it only burns like acetone. Not energetic like MEKP should. When I mixed it with NaNO3 and tried to ignite it with a sparkler it only burned slowly. The ratio was around 50:50. When I made MEKPAP (50:50) with the same peroxide and MEK It worked very good. I will try to dissolve some AP in the MEKP I have to see if it will burn like it should. Does anyone know why it happens?

[Edited on 8-4-2008 by Zinc]

Zinc - 8-4-2008 at 13:57

I tried now. It burns the same way. But the MEKPAP made from mixed acetone and MEK works good. Does anyone know why?

497 - 8-4-2008 at 16:21

I still think you aren't letting evaporate off the MEK contamination. Try setting it in a shallow open dish for a day or two and then burn it. A more detailed description of your procedure would also help me figure out what you're doing.

I'm going to mix up a nice big batch of MEKP/AP for stump blasting.

A while ago I tried a mix of about 30 grams MEKP/AP mixed with about 45 grams very finely powdered ammonium nitrate. It went off nicely with a fuse but produce a large thick cloud of white smoke. This seems odd, was the ammonium nitrate not detonated? That's the only reason I can think of, I suppose it would take a pretty powerful blasting cap... hmm.

E-tech - 8-4-2008 at 20:13

Totenkov- the explosive paper you mention only uses MEK not MEKP- it's used as a solvent to dissolve the PETN, and a small amount of mineral oil is added to prevent the formation of large, obvious crystals. Acetone could be used in place of the MEK.
As for running it through a dot matrix printer, nice idea, but, how about replacing the radiator fluid in a vehicle with MEKP, or PLX?
Acetone and MEK work better together than MEK alone? Maybe some sort of side reactions help the formation of the MEK. Not really a bad thing- isn't a solution of AP in MEKP denser that straight MEKP? Higher density does tend to result in higher detonation velocities.

Zinc - 9-4-2008 at 04:14

Quote:

Originally posted by 497
I still think you aren't letting evaporate off the MEK contamination.

That is a possibility. But why does then MEKPAP work and I also don't let the MEK or acetone to evaporate?

Quote:

Originally posted by 497
Try setting it in a shallow open dish for a day or two and then burn it.

I will try that.

Quote:

Originally posted by 497
A more detailed description of your procedure would also help me figure out what you're doing.

I mix MEK with H2O2 (when using 30% around 40-45 ml of H2O2 to 30 ml of MEK, with 12% 10 ml of MEK and 22 ml of H2O2), then I add 19% HCl. After 24 hours I extract the MEKP with a syringe.

I'm going to mix up a nice big batch of MEKP/AP for stump blasting.

Quote:

Originally posted by 497
A while ago I tried a mix of about 30 grams MEKP/AP mixed with about 45 grams very finely powdered ammonium nitrate. It went off nicely with a fuse but produce a large thick cloud of white smoke. This seems odd, was the ammonium nitrate not detonated? That's the only reason I can think of, I suppose it would take a pretty powerful blasting cap... hmm.

I made MEKPAP/AN and always set it off with a AP cap (a few grams). In my experience it is "weaker" than APAN and also creates thick white smoke. My APAN doesn't do that (but I have seen videos where there is a large amount of smoke). Perhaps my MEKPAP/AN is "weaker" because the AN I use is cast and ground so it is not porous and the MEKPAP cant soak in the granules (which are mostly very fine).

497 - 9-4-2008 at 17:13

Quote:

But why does then MEKPAP work and I also don't let the MEK or acetone to evaporate?

Probably because it reacted more completely, you know 1 ml of acetone requires a different amount of H2O2 than 1 ml MEK, that makes a difference that you have to compensate for. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head.

As far I MEKP/AN goes I would bet its just not initiating the any/all of the AN, simply dispersing it as a cloud. I've heard of this happening with other compositions that include AN. If you really wanted to know I think the best way to do it would be compare the damage of an MEKP/AN mixture with a mixture of MEKP with something inert that has a similar density and particle size to the AN. Maybe fine sodium sulfate or the like. The AP/AN mix sounds interesting but I don't want to deal with AP, too dangerous for my taste. I'd try all this myself but my parents have said no more detonations... After I detonated the MEKP/AN charge I mentioned earlier. They're afraid people in the neighborhood will get worried and call the police... arggh

The good news is my aunt is clearing some property and asked me to come destroy some stumps, so I need to figure out a good composition, hopefully cheap considering I'll need a lot. I'm thinking possibly H2O2/glycerin or something similar since I have 5 gallons of 50% H2O2. Maybe H2O2/glycerin saturated with AN? So many possibilities! The problem is I can't do any testing beforehand, so I'll just have to hope it works...

Zelot - 10-4-2008 at 06:07

@497:
I have a theory why your MEKP/AP/AN charge didn’t work. Maybe when you fired it, the initial shockwave ruptured the container, so when it reached the end it simply vaporized rather than exploded.

Zinc - 12-4-2008 at 01:10

After I have left the MEKP on the reaction liquid to sit 4 days to evaporate the excess MEK it burns a little faster than before but still not fast enough (as I have seen in videos of pure MEKP). It looks like there is still much MEK in it. I probably didn't use good ratios when making the MEKP. I used 100 ml of 12% H2O2, 45 ml of MEK and around 15 ml of 19% HCl. Does anyone know the correct ratios?

StevenRS - 12-4-2008 at 13:08

Quote:

CHEMICALS NEEDED:
-40mL 27.5% H2O2 solution (other concentrations may be used; the volume of hydrogen peroxide solution will need to be adjusted accordingly; the quantity of sulfuric acid used will also need to be adjusted)
-25mL Methyl Ethyl Ketone CH3COCH2CH3 (sold as a solvent at hardware stores; keep in mind that it will dissolve most plastics)
-5mL 98% sulfuric acid (other concentrations may be used, the volume of sulfuric acid will need to be adjusted accordingly)

I always use an excess of H2O2 so there is no MEK left over, and then use salt to crash out any remaining water in the MEKP.
I still leave it out to dry in a cool, dry place.

Zinc - 12-4-2008 at 13:10

I will try and report the results. Does anyone know the ratios for 12% H2O2?

[Edited on 12-4-2008 by Zinc]

StevenRS - 12-4-2008 at 13:24

Use a proportion to figure it out,

40(ml) * 27.5(%) Text x(ml) * 12(%)
----------------- Text = Text ------------------- and solve for x.
25(ml) * 100 (%) Text 25(ml) * 100(%)

I know the answer, try to figure it out.

[Edited on 12-4-2008 by StevenRS]

[Edited on 12-4-2008 by StevenRS]

Zinc - 12-4-2008 at 13:33

Is 91.6 ml the right answer?

Pages: 1 2 3 4