Sciencemadness Discussion Board - does anyone know...

does anyone know...

Lestat - 15-5-2004 at 14:06

Does anyone know what isotope of bisthmuth is in pepto-bismol?

or for that matter any way to get bisthmuth 200?

I am a fish - 15-5-2004 at 14:32

Use Google! Has it ever occurred to you to use a search engine? Simple searching reveals that:

Natural bismuth is almost entirely bismuth 209.
Bismuth 200 has a 36 minute half-life.
Your question is completely idiotic.

Yes, plenty of over the counter medicines are made from highly active radioisotopes. The Bismuth 200 Pepto-Bismol can be found on the same shelf as the Cobalt 60 Vitamin B12 tablets and the Tritiated Aspirin.

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by I am a fish]

Lestat - 15-5-2004 at 14:48

Well i was actually asking how to change it INTO the 200 form. and i'm not tjhat bothered about the short half life, what i would be making has one pretty short itself.

(and at the moment, my computer won't let me into google for some reason its being funny)

Quantum - 15-5-2004 at 15:34

Oh yea we all can turn bismuth 209 into 200. I mean who dosn't have a way to pluck neutrons out of atoms in thier house? :mad:

If you want bismuth 209 buy it here

Lestat - 15-5-2004 at 15:40

looks good, but unfortunately they don't ship outside the U.S

would bombarding with neutrons work?
sorry if i am totally wrong, and this sounds dumb, i havent done any nuclear chemistry for a loooong time.

Wouldn't the short half-life make it impossible to stock anyway?

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Lestat]

chemoleo - 15-5-2004 at 16:37

well, naturally you couldnt store it at all. Use it as you make it.
Unless you found a way of stopping nuclear decay - in that case the next Physics Nobel prize is yours, plus billions (money) from various defence agencies...
Now what's your interest in Bi 200?

A very strange thread I have to say... and I cannot guarantee its survival...

Lestat - 15-5-2004 at 16:39

I'm planning to bombard it with alpha radiation as soon as i could get it.

Disclaimer - it is most likely I am talking bilge

Ramiel - 15-5-2004 at 23:02

Uhh, I'm not to clued up on my neuclear physics either, but i don't know if bombarding Bi209 with ß particles will yeild Bi200. Surely this isn't what you meant?

If bombardment results in fusion (eV of α-particle > 20MeV), you'll get the Astatine 211At isotope.

20983Bi + 42He ==> 21185At + 2 10n

This is a relatively well known fusion reaction.

Quote:

Heating the bismuth target to 300-600°C under N2 results in a stream of the elemental astatine that can be collected on a cold glass finger.

Astatine 211 accumulates in the thyroid like iodine. That'd be a nasty, and fairly long way to die: λ 211At ≈ 7 hours. (7.214 hours)

The first such successful synthesis was carried out thusly:

Quote:

Successful synthesis of element #43 in Lawrence´s cyclotron suggested the possibility of preparing element #85, eka-Iodine, in a similar manner. Calculations suggested alpha particles with more than 20 MeV would be required. Upon completion of the 60" cyclotron in 1940, Emilio Segrè, R. R. Corson, and K. R. MacKenzie bombarded a water-cooled Bismuth target with 32 Mev Helium ions. They filed off the surface of the Bismuth target and dissolved the filings in concentrated nitric acid.

<html><a href="http://homepage.mac.com/dtrapp/Elements/combination2.html">Link.</a></html>

However, if you are not suffering a case of irritating and more importantly irradiating goiter after 24 hours, then congratulations, you probably have some Lead, and some Bismuth.

The branch percentage for 211At to 211Po via electron capture thingy is 58.2% (thank you <html><a href="http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/iso085.html">It's elemental</a></html>

. 211Po decays via α decay (half-life 0.516s) to metastable Lead (20782,Pb), which decays to stable lead in a 0.806 Half-life.

The rest α-decays to 207Bim (λ = 182 microseconds to stable 207Bi) and stable 207Bi (well, half-life = 37 or something years).

Uhh, now I guess you repeat the procedure for the initial production of Astatine...

20783Bi + 42He ==> 20985At + 2 10n

This is a big guess, but if the trend goes on: Decay (half-life or 209At = 5.41 hours) mostly leaves you with 20984Po... half-life 102 years.
*ramiel's eyes glaze over*
Ha ha
Aha haha
HAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAaaaahhh... shiße.

Congratulations, you will have just made the most stable isotope of Polonium know to man.

Now, on to more practical problems:
Assuming you mean by your last post that "I intend to bombard the 209Bi isotope with alpha radiation as soon as I can get the Bi 209."
<html><ul>Are you intending to make a cyclotron capable of accelerating huge numbers of α-particles up to and beyond 20MeV?

Do you already have an α-source that generates huge numbers of these magical particles (I want one!) Do you have a device to separate these isotopes and elements from each other quickly? Or are you relying on chemical reactions for less pure results?</ul></html>A very interesting project.

Sincerely
-Ramiel

ps. I am a fish, how did you get those bullets? when I use the unordered list html tag, it just gives me indentation like you see above.

Lestat - 15-5-2004 at 23:26

Yes, I am thinking of building a cyclotron (i hope anyway), I hadnt really thought about the polonium, though it could come in usefil...., i really just wanted to see if I could isolate a visible quantity of astatine.

But im not a one to turn my nose up at the chance to obtain unusual/dangerous chemicals, and being probably the first to produce macroscopic quantities of At would be nice lol.

Considering I just made sodium today
(at 5 in the morning!) I will be mighty pleased if I can actually pull this one off...

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Lestat]

Ramiel - 16-5-2004 at 07:13

Oh, so you wanted 20485At, or failing that, any Astatine?

You know 204At will leave you with mostly Lead after about a week?
You know that there is estimated less than a milligram of At on the earth (factoid)?
Edit:
How are you planning to seperate the Isotopes/elements? You'll have to do it pretty quickly.

Please don't take offence at my doubting nature, but you just don't sound to sure or precice, and that's EXACTLY what you must be for this work.

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Ramiel]

vulture - 16-5-2004 at 07:44

The distinct smell of a *cough* TROLL *cough* is teasing my nostrils...

Proteios - 16-5-2004 at 08:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Lestat
Yes, I am thinking of building a cyclotron (i hope anyway)
Considering I just made sodium today
(at 5 in the morning!) I will be mighty pleased if I can actually pull this one off...

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Lestat]

LMFAO...... tooo funny.
Kinda like saying..... I sucessfully went to the supermarket this morning..... therefore I think I should be able to make it to the moon this afternoon.

Nuclear synthesis is EXTREMETLY expensive, as is isotope isolation. Given this, why would you think peptobismol would contain anything other than natural abundances.

Are you sure you want a cyclotron?? not a syncatron, or maybe a spallation source..... hell, for a man of such ability, a few years and you will have cold fusion going! lol........ thnks 4 the laughts!

Lestat - 16-5-2004 at 09:09

.My sole aim is just to make a visible amount of astatine, I dont care what happens to it afterwards, i just want to make enough to take a photograph, just so i can A: say ive done it, and B: i just want to know what the damn stuff actually looks like it, and i did think of a synchotron.

and ramiel, i believe there is somewhat more than 1 mg of At on earth at any one time, i think it is more like under 20-30 grams.

I am after 210 At, and it decays into polonium not lead.

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Lestat]

Actually,

axehandle - 16-5-2004 at 09:13

I have myself considered building a cyclotron, just for the bragging rights. I've just never sat down and sketched on one, yet. I still think it could be done at home though -- it's not rocket science, only nuclear science....

Lestat - 16-5-2004 at 09:15

Thats why i want the At, just for bragging rights lol

Proteios - 16-5-2004 at 11:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Lestat
and i did think of a synchotron.
[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Lestat]

Daym your going well....synchotrons only produce x-rays (well technically EM radiation, usually from the UV to what would energetically be called gamma rays, although they are always termed xrays)..........

There is no problem with having your head in the clouds, as long as your feet are on the ground.

Funny, funny stuff!, oh and good luck with making the At from peptobismol LMAO!!!!

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Proteios]

Ramiel - 16-5-2004 at 22:31

Yea, well good luck at getting 210At from Any-bismol...

Lestat - 17-5-2004 at 10:11

Well scoff if you must, but if (and i agree its a bit "if"

i manage to isolate 210At i think I wlll be the one laughing, building a cyclotron itself tho, well that shouldnt be too difficult.

vulture - 17-5-2004 at 10:52

Ofcourse, you'll be providing us and the rest of the world with irrefutable proof of what you achieved, no?

That is once you achieve it ofcourse...

Lestat - 17-5-2004 at 10:59

Believe me, IF i can manage it, nothing would give me greater pleasure than to
provide information and complete details of how it was done.

unionised - 17-5-2004 at 15:12

I don't see the problem with using a synchrotron as an atom smasher (except, of course, that I haven't got one).
If you had a visible quantity of astatine I think the radiation dose from watching it would be bad for you. 210 Astatine has a half life of about 8 hours, that makes it (weight for weight) about 1.7 million times more radioactive than 226 radium ie about 1.6 MCuries/ gram. I guess you could see about a microgram of it so that would be a couple of curies of radioactive source. How close do you want to get to that sort of thing?

Lestat - 17-5-2004 at 15:21

I'm going to sublime the 210-At directly into behind lead glass and lots of it, and as for how close?

in short, not very, after taking a picture, i intend to wait for it to decay.