Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Looking over the border: EU-Regulations

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BJ68 - 31-1-2013 at 05:54

For now people in the US will not be affected by a EU Regulation which became effective at 15/01/2013.

It has the title "Marketing and use of explosives precursors" and you can find the Englisch Text at:

Marketing and use of explosives precursors

So the possession, use, preparation of some chemicals is forbidden for the general public, if the chemical exceed a concentration limit and you don´t have the approval (permit) from the authorities:

-Hydrogen peroxide 12%
-Nitric acid 3%
-Potassium and Sodium chlorate and perchlorate 40%
-Nitromethane 30%

Other chemicals are on the watch list:

See Annex II


This EU-Regulation has to be implemented in local (German, Austrian, French and so forth) law.....


Bj68

neptunium - 31-1-2013 at 07:00

H2O2 12% is availlable freely in beauty supply store its the 40 volume clairoxide easy to concentrate...
HNO3 is easy to get over 98% from nitrates and sulfuric acide conc.

this is getting ridiculous! when is this suppose to be in effect in the US?

BJ68 - 31-1-2013 at 07:18

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
H2O2 12% is availlable freely in beauty supply store its the 40 volume clairoxide easy to concentrate...
HNO3 is easy to get over 98% from nitrates and sulfuric acide conc.

this is getting ridiculous! when is this suppose to be in effect in the US?



So far I know, there is no attempt to make the same in the US.....

Sorry, but I can not call it ridiculous, because these chemicals are then at the same level as drug precursors where you need a permit for buying, preparing.
So if you concentrate or make such things (without permit) and you get caught....you will be prosecuted and punished. Your equipment and chemicals will be sized and you have to pay a fine.....

If you try to get a permit, the authorities can make statutory provisions which can be expensive.....e.g. safety cabinet.
So they can reduce the amount of people which are using this stuff and be at the legal side...

Edit:
If you are a Law Abiding Citizen and you get no permit for private use, you have a problem.....and if you have other permits for example a gun license then your problem will be greater.....

Bj68


[Edited on 31-1-2013 by BJ68]

neptunium - 31-1-2013 at 08:51

although i agree with you , i must add that blindly following the law has proven desatrous in the past .
critical thinking and self responsability have become very rare, in theory and in a perfect world it would be a great step toward public safety.
unfortunately we dont live in such a world .
blunt, ridgid and exclusives laws and regulations are poorly adapted and will never fit a complex society full of complex individuals.
we must defend our freedom and our liberty there is a price to pay for that . I am willing to accept and compromise a little bit of my safety in exchange
for a lot of freedom...isnt that what the founding fathers had in mind? or am i terribly misguided?

unionised - 31-1-2013 at 11:32

So, according to the legislation I can buy those things provided that I can demonstrate a legitimate use for them.
Not a problem.
Not relevant anyway, most of them are currently for sale on eBay.

BJ68 - 31-1-2013 at 22:31

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
So, according to the legislation I can buy those things provided that I can demonstrate a legitimate use for them.
Not a problem.
Not relevant anyway, most of them are currently for sale on eBay.


Sorry, there is a little difference.....the authorities have to check if your legitimate use is allowed and than you get a permit for using the chemicals with higher concentrations.

Do you think that for a local authority it is enough if you say for expample: I need nitric acid with 53%, because I want to get copper in solution?
Do you think you would get a permit to buy and use nitric acid for that or can it be that the authorities think it is a self-serving declaration and deny the permit?
Or if the give you the permit, they say okay, but proof us, that you have a fume hood, a safety cabinet for storage, connections to a company which manages your chemical waste and so on?

Do you really think that this shit is not relevant anyway?

Have a nice dream and I hope your dream came true, but my feelings are more of a nightmare.....


Bj68


Edit: I see you live in the UK

So do you get as a private person with a hobby chemistry lab a license for buying category 1 substances according to the Precursor chemical domestic licensing list http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/drugs/licensing/precursors-chem... if you can demonstrate a legitimate use?




[Edited on 1-2-2013 by BJ68]

[Edited on 1-2-2013 by BJ68]

AndersHoveland - 31-1-2013 at 23:05

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  
-Nitric acid 3%

This is just ridiculous. We should not need a permit for everything. I am tired of the chemophobia (the EU has a phobia of plenty of other things too)

Just one more reason to leave the EU.
I am disgusted by all these frustrating regulations. Our freedom is being flushed down the drain, gradually. I think there are far more than enough regulations already.

Bureaucrats want to keep making more laws and regulations to solve alleged problems, without looking back at all the inconvenience and expense caused by the regulations they have already made.

Nickbb - 1-2-2013 at 03:26

Isn't oxygen a big 'precursor' to explosives, I mean practically all explosives contain a lot of oxygen... they might have to ban that too... oh yeah and nitrogen, a lot of explosives have nitrogen in them. Consider air can easily be turned into nitric acid they might have to regulate the air.

[Edited on 1-2-2013 by Nickbb]

[Edited on 1-2-2013 by Nickbb]

weiming1998 - 3-2-2013 at 06:45

The 3% concentration limit for nitric acid is just ridiculous. I don't think you even can make any explosives with dilute nitric acid. What about all the legitimate purposes of nitric acid? Do you have to get a permit to etch some copper, refine gold, test coins and jewellery for precious metals, etc?

BJ68 - 3-2-2013 at 23:02

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
What about all the legitimate purposes of nitric acid? Do you have to get a permit to etch some copper, refine gold, test coins and jewellery for precious metals, etc?



If you are a general member of the public (in German "Privatperson") then yes, you will need a permit in the future here in the EU.

And I have doubts if you get the license very easy if I read that:

1. Each Member State which issues licences to members of the general public with a legitimate interest to acquire, introduce, possess or use restricted explosives precursors shall lay down rules for granting the licence provided for in Article 4(2) and (6) . When considering whether to grant a licence, the competent authority of the Member State shall take into account all relevant circumstances and, in particular, the legitimacy of the intended use of the substance. The licence shall be refused if there are reasonable grounds for doubting the legitimacy of the intended use or the intentions of the user to use it for a legitimate purpose . 2. The competent authority may choose how to limit the validity of the licence, through permitting single or multiple use for a period not exceeding three years. The competent authority may oblige the license holder to demonstrate, until the designated expiry of the licence, that the conditions under which the licence was granted are still fulfilled. The licence shall mention the restricted explosives precursors in respect of which it is issued .

Additionally the draft mentioned the extension of this "shit" to professional user, too:
(c) the desirability and feasibility of extending the scope of this Regulation to cover professional users, taking into account the burdens imposed on economic operators and having regard to the objective of this Regulation;

So there is really a need to stand up and take actions against it....

According to more and more restrictions e.g. "Skull and crossbones for nitric acid" http://www.bfr.bund.de/en/press_information/2012/09/skull_an... people which are interested in natural sciences, experiments have founded the IVNT http://ivnt.de/ (Side is in German) to try to make a little bit of counterpressure and coordinate some action.

Bj68

bahamuth - 4-2-2013 at 00:22

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Just one more reason to leave the EU.
I am disgusted by all these frustrating regulations. Our freedom is being flushed down the drain, gradually. I think there are far more than enough regulations already.

Bureaucrats want to keep making more laws and regulations to solve alleged problems, without looking back at all the inconvenience and expense caused by the regulations they have already made.


Norway, where I reside is "not" (see, I put not in quotation marks........) yet in the EU but we comply to everything with nothing to say, and we do it with such spineless pride... Anyways, there will not be any place to "go" to do these amateur sciences like the ones discussed at this forum in a few years, even the institutions will be restricted in doing research, especially fundamental research, since one have big problems accounting for the use of chemicals in such areas, something I have felt myself at my previous institution.

Only way things are going to get "free-er" is if technology is going mainstream, as the trend is showing with bio-hacking, 3D printing etc. and that may very well be the reason for all these regulations.

Additionally I am tempted to go a little "tinfoil hat" on these things as it seems the governments are afraid that knowledge and the means to explore them will be freely accessible to the general public, and as such the creation of such regulations.
We can see the regulation trend in all aspects of our lives, from restricting the internet to building houses (regulations have made housebuilding in Norway almost impossible to do for a private person due to the insanely increased costs of keeping up with all the new idiotic regulations) and I wonder why; these regulations rarely if ever benefit the general public.

IMO these regulations are a part of a disguise to impose control over the people, by imposing micro-laws so that everyone is guilty of something, by targeting the "thinking" part of the population it seems.


Just my thoughts when I read this thread...

hiperion42 - 4-2-2013 at 12:23

So it has yet to be implemented by the separate member
states... what's the time line?

BJ68 - 4-2-2013 at 23:04

Quote: Originally posted by hiperion42  
So it has yet to be implemented by the separate member
states... what's the time line?



a) According to this Link Procedure file it´s waiting for publication in Official Journal.

b) That means if it is published here Official Journal of the European Union

c) Then this Regulation will enter into force on the twentieth day following that of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union .

d) But the Regulation shall apply from 18 months after the date of entry into force.

e) The important point:
The possession and use by members of the general public of restricted explosives precursors shall be allowed until 36 months after the date of entry into force of this Regulation.

So the member states have 18 months to make local laws, work out the SOP´s (e.g. which authority will grant the permits, how high are fees and so on) where it may have some possibilities to take action or have some influence on it.
The dead line or sunset-date is 3 years after the entry into force date.....than you need a permit to own this kind of chemicals....

So the question is: Is it possible to make a coalition over the borders to get influence at that topic or even try it?

Bj68

bahamuth - 5-2-2013 at 00:35

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  
So the question is: Is it possible to make a coalition over the borders to get influence at that topic or even try it?


You planning a fight with the EU? Forget about it, unless you have a billionaire benefactor hiring the best lawyers on the planet to fight for you. Can you imagine all the red tape you would have to cut through, it would be a full time job for the whole period for several people. These bureaucrats will not listen at all, since there is no legitimate reason why the reality TV watching public should ever be able to get these chemicals at high conc. in question.

Or what are you proposing? If it has any merit I'll try to help...

bahamuth

hiperion42 - 5-2-2013 at 00:53

Thanks.
It can be argued that western civil liberties where
a produce of the oil age. With all the energy and
abundance it was for the top class more workable
to let trickle down a tiny bit of the produce to the lower classes.
It provided the illusion and kept them in check.
Now that conventional oil production has peaked
going forward less and less energy will be available.
To compensate the trickle down has to stop.
The bailouts were a heist in plain sight.
Good old ransacking brigandry.
They just took it.

[Edited on 5-2-2013 by hiperion42]

BJ68 - 5-2-2013 at 01:53

Quote: Originally posted by bahamuth  


You planning a fight with the EU? Forget about it, unless you have a billionaire benefactor hiring the best lawyers on the planet to fight for you. Can you imagine all the red tape you would have to cut through, it would be a full time job for the whole period for several people. These bureaucrats will not listen at all, since there is no legitimate reason why the reality TV watching public should ever be able to get these chemicals at high conc. in question.

Or what are you proposing? If it has any merit I'll try to help...

bahamuth



I agree with you that fighting the EU will be a full time job and you will fight against wind mills, like Don Quixote.

But where I see a possibility (even this may be tiny) to change something, is the fact that this regulation as to be implemented in local laws and rules and that laws or rules can be influenced from people. It makes a difference if you don´t have a permit and this is only a administrative offence like wrong parking or it´s felony like selling 1 kg of diacetylmorphine.
The other thing is, that rules has to be worked out....are you allowed to use potassium chlorate for the "Gummy Bear Hell" Gummy Bear Hell or to use nitric acid for etching copper plates and so on?
What´s about the old stock? Do they really think I should trash or use up my 5 liter of 65% nitric acid, my 500 g Potassiumchlorate, 1 Liter of nitromethane only because they think they can forbid the possession of that stuff?
Are we all little children, which have to ask our nanny for permission to use or even own this kind of chemicals?

Clear that would be much work....you have to write to the authorities, politicians and argue like crazy and you know that most of the argumentation is for nothing.....but somebody who is not fighting has lost the battle before beginning.

There are now so much people involved from this...so it should be possible to get some public resistance against it together.

Bj68





[Edited on 5-2-2013 by BJ68]

BJ68 - 19-2-2013 at 23:19

Now we have a Date:

Article 16
Transitional provision
The possession and use by members of the general public of restricted explosives precursors shall be allowed until 2 March 2016.



http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2...


Bj68

[Edited on 20-2-2013 by BJ68]

Scr0t - 20-2-2013 at 01:11

It appears some member states may be allowed to make higher concentrations available to the general public without a license but the seller must register the purchase and the higher concentrations aren't much better at least for MeNO2 & HNO3.

Article 4
Quote:

3. Notwithstanding paragraphs 1 and 2, a Member State may maintain or establish a registration regime allowing the following restricted explosives precursors to be made available to, or to be possessed or used by, members of the general public if the economic operator who makes them available registers each transaction in accordance with the detailed arrangements laid down in Article 8:

(a) hydrogen peroxide (CAS RN 7722-84-1) in concentrations higher than the limit value set out in Annex I, but no higher than 35 % w/w;

(b) nitromethane (CAS RN 75-52-5) in concentrations higher than the limit value set out in Annex I, but no higher than 40 % w/w;

(c) nitric acid (CAS RN 7697-37-2) in concentrations higher than the limit value set out in Annex I, but no higher than 10 % w/w.



There are several farming products over here that contain >20% HNO3, I guess they are going to have to reformulate them all, will they be as effective though?

Looks like I will have to construct a hidden stash for these chemicals... It's a bloody nuisance.
As if this will stop anyone determined with nefarious intent from making explosives.

hiperion42 - 20-2-2013 at 13:29

Ordinary people with over 10% HNO3
can't have that!

As a flock we must dive orderly and well behaved into
the ravine...

BJ68 - 20-2-2013 at 14:25

The interesting question would be, if you apply for a permit and the permit is denied, what will happen with your data?

Do you get then a nice visit from the police, with a search warrant or are you only reported to the authorities and there have to be other additional suspicions to get a visit form the police?

Bj68

hiperion42 - 21-2-2013 at 01:40

ahh yes! endless possibilities! :cool:

ScienceSquirrel - 30-4-2013 at 12:09

I am not sure how this will work.
I use hydrogen peroxide as a brewery wash down.
A splash of 35% in a bucket plus water. Chuck it in the hot liquor tank, mash tun, boiler, fermenters and then rinse.
It also goes through the pumps and pipes.
It leaves no residue, it is pH neutral and it breaks down to oxygen and water in my soakaway.
Lots of dairies and small food processors do the same.

new EU threat to 'chemistry'

Fantasma4500 - 13-7-2013 at 08:36

http://pyrogarage.pl/end.htm

i came by this as i was to check relative prices between salicylic acid and sodium benzoate

ive read most parts of the link and it sounds like theyre preparing to have a massive snitch-union
also making it nearly impossible to import interesting substances from third world countries or even such as poland

at least read quickly through it, it doesnt sound like a little something-something this time
HNO3 to be limited to only 3% maximum available to the public, thats insanely low

some of you on here might also have looked into the legitimacy of the always overhanging 'terror threat' and find this even more absurb with that background knowledge

ElectroWin - 13-7-2013 at 12:17

the article says that after 2016 hobbyists become criminals, and recommends stockpiling the items that will be banned.

it is my belief that that is the incorrect approach.

instead of accepting that you will be made a criminal, you should lobby the government strongly, to consider your hobbyist use as civil.

Pok - 13-7-2013 at 14:48

This is a very bad story. But it's true. This is intensively discussed e.g. at versuchschemie.de (german chemistry forum). The worst thing: even the possession of > 3% HNO3 is prohibited after 2016! You will have to apply for permission before you can possess, handle, buy or store certain substances (also chlorates, etc.). Even the deadliest chemicals are legal to possess until now, afaik (even if they are forbidden to buy). But this is a new dimension of restrictions for hobby chemists.

[Edited on 13-7-2013 by Pok]

AndersHoveland - 13-7-2013 at 17:56

The EU has been passing a ridiculous amount of regulations. They have been going on a spree banning things.
Often times, they give very little thought to how their bans will inconvenience certain people.

It almost seems like a huge power grab.

[Edited on 14-7-2013 by AndersHoveland]

blogfast25 - 14-7-2013 at 04:12

I wish this thread hadn't been moved even though this is its rightful place. It won't get much attention here, I think.

No, there's no 'power grab', just another kneejerk reaction without consideration for the unintended consequences of the 'War on Terror (TM)'. Or should that be 'War OF terror'?

Regards the latter, it would help if the West stopped endlessly meddling in the affairs of Muslim countries, stopped treating oil as if it was its birth right and stopped aiding and abetting the war criminals in Tel Aviv/J'sem in their quest to ethnically cleanse the remainder of historic Palestine. But since as we have no intention of doing any of those things, we'll always be 'fighting terrorism'. See also the NSA scandal.


[Edited on 14-7-2013 by blogfast25]

S.C. Wack - 14-7-2013 at 05:15

Brussels really is all about regulation, and has been the Sacramento, Salem, Olympia, and Albany of Europe for some time. This will continue as lobbyists and legislators are never satisfied, due to their need for employment if nothing else.
Quote: Originally posted by ElectroWin  
instead of accepting that you will be made a criminal, you should lobby the government strongly


That would be like Texas abortionists protesting the new Texas abortion laws...uh, they don't care what you think, that's kind of the point...

bfesser - 14-7-2013 at 09:29

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
I wish this thread hadn't been moved even though this is its rightful place. It won't get much attention here, I think.
As long as it remains active, anyone using <img src="./images/xpblue/top_todaysposts.gif" /> <a href="today.php">Today's Posts</a> will surely see it.

blogfast25 - 14-7-2013 at 10:00

bfesser:

It's the first time I've noticed that tab. Thanks for that.

Going back to topic: looks like a market for Ostwald kits, Ostwald 'How To' guides. 'Nitrates from Menure' and such like, may now open up. Early bird gets the worm!

ElectroWin - 15-7-2013 at 12:03

these items have major uses in analytical chemistry. how will labs be expected to be run?

Fantasma4500 - 15-7-2013 at 12:31

getting on your knees begging will get your head cut off, as stated by not only me they dont give the least of a fuck

agenda 21 is part of this, for those who havent read it or at least rounded WHAT that will be meaning to us all (yes you can take this as being related to chemistry, ALSO) then its time to get a look at it

without blending too much politics in it, seemingly russia, syria, china and iran thinks we are right, or at least not that the americans are

when the ban will come, if earth is still rotating at that point of time, then you should still be able to get a hold of Cu(NO3)2, at 160*C +- it decomposes into CuO and NO2 (:
rest is selfexplanatory
magnalium would be good if you want reactive metal powder
doubt they can or will ban magnesium.. (?)
they probably dont even know about magnalium yet, lol
otherwise extracting nitrates from the ground using dirt and ashes has been known for beyond long time
in scandinavia in old time huge farming areas was paid for to the government (king?) with actual KNO3 as they had massive need for blackpowder
procedure is simple as follows:

bucket is punctured outwards
a layer of cloth is added
thereafter is filled in alot of ashes from wood (bark and leaves have higher potassium content than wood itself, thistles is the ultimate)
then again cloth and the rest of the bucket is then filled with dirt, best is if its some place horses have grassed and the main point: taken a few hundred dumps and what not

the hot water runs through, collecting the NO3 ions, reacting them with the K2CO3 found in the ashes
below is found water containing KNO3, which can be boiled down, if the purity is low recrystallization is something they can never ban (;


i was kinda considering implying whats going on in the world, but the words mentioned alot in agenda 21 pretty well explains it ''sustainable growth''

ElectroWin - 16-7-2013 at 08:20

frankly i am disturbed by the attitudes in this forum, which appears to be to eschew activism in its cooperative forms, in favour of secrecy

blogfast25 - 16-7-2013 at 12:00

Quote: Originally posted by ElectroWin  
frankly i am disturbed by the attitudes in this forum, which appears to be to eschew activism in its cooperative forms, in favour of secrecy


Huh?

Explain.

ElectroWin - 16-7-2013 at 16:26

it's just that Antiswat 's response seemed to say, dont bother telling the authorities that you intend to find a way to get around their ban.

i dont think they will like that

chemcam - 16-7-2013 at 17:38

Electro, umm, your logic is...interesting...to say the least. Before you break laws you the people in charge know your plans? That usually doesn't work out so well, don't you think?

Would be wise just to keep to yourself and follow the rules as best you can. Why not be smart and start a small resell company, I plan too. Then I have a legitimate reason to have things.

blogfast25 - 17-7-2013 at 04:00

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Why not be smart and start a small resell company, I plan too. Then I have a legitimate reason to have things.


Yes, at a glance people like me won't be affected but I need to study the small print.

Fantasma4500 - 18-7-2013 at 10:48

about what US might be affected by, infact its the US who seats the gentlemen who wish to have very tight regulation, sooner ONE currency, not many but one
thereafter 1 government, and one set of rules
1 system
1 people
or well 2..
the ones who are and the ones who are not slaves
anyhow these rules are 'first' in 2016

BJ68 - 18-7-2013 at 21:29

Quote: Originally posted by ElectroWin  
it's just that Antiswat 's response seemed to say, dont bother telling the authorities that you intend to find a way to get around their ban.

i dont think they will like that



The later is the point....clear the ban is partly ridiculous, because you can extract nitrates from fertilizer and convert it to nitric acid or you use salt, electrical power and water for generating chlorate.

But that is not the fucking point....and everyone who thinks that it´s only a little problem, because I can circumvent this and give a shit at the authorities, sees not the total impact.

Ones more again:

The possession, preparation, concentration, extraction, to obtain, organize and so on without approval from the authorities will be against the law.

Every fucking piece of evidence can and will be used against you...

For example: We found some copper(II)nitrate at your home; our analysis showed that this is home-made. Where do you have the permit to use nitric acid with more than 0.1 (3)% to prepare that stuff?

Bingo...you are now guilty for possession, use, obtaining concentrated nitric acid without a permit.
Your chemicals, equipment will be seized and destroyed at your cost. You get a nice file at the police computer and in GB your DNA-Print joins the file.
You can be sure, that from now on even a order of fertilizer or harmless not forbidden chemicals where the seller your address has, will raise a red light (because of the background check) and perhaps trigger a further visit of the police.
Police traffic control will be in the future a nice experience for you....they will search your car, like the other guy who got caught with drugs and has a file in the police computer, too.

Bj68

ElectroWin - 30-7-2013 at 10:35

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Electro, umm, your logic is...interesting...to say the least. Before you break laws you the people in charge know your plans? That usually doesn't work out so well, don't you think?

Would be wise just to keep to yourself and follow the rules as best you can. Why not be smart and start a small resell company, I plan too. Then I have a legitimate reason to have things.


i'm not the one advocating breaking the law. i'm saying stand up for your interests. point out the huge economic impact of stupid laws. insist on getting invited to the table.

testimento - 28-9-2013 at 13:25

Who cares? Only big problem arises with H2O2, but everything else one can manufacture himself. As long as they won't ban gypsum, urea, plastics and metal workshop tools, I feel safe. With these, including common household stuff like salt and soda, one can make everything from explosives to poisons to drugs to common chemistry stuff. One just needs to do some - work. It was a period of age in human history when a hobbyist could buy specialty chemicals directly from suppliers - but now they've got to return to the old bastards' times, when one had to do everything himself.

But hey, we got the internet, and through the net grows the knowledge. I'm gonna cook my own sulfuric and nitric acids and other nasties whatever I need. I prefer coke as a fuel - law books don't burn that well. :D

plante1999 - 28-10-2013 at 22:54

I just found somthing pretty interesting about Canada regulations:

http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/minerals-metals/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca...

"watch list":
Ketones
urea
hexamine
sulphuric acid
etc

and they also tell possible source of the material. I found it impressive to know that the authorities do know about theses sources for chemical. Although, here in canada, if one make an energetic compound but do not use it for other thing then research work he his in theory allowed to if in small quantity (probably less then 10g).

Canada Explosives Regulations (C.R.C., c. 599) (2013-03-18) Section 34:
"A person may, for the purpose of laboratory chemical experiment and not for practical use or sale, make a small quantity of explosive in a place that is not a licensed factory if reasonable precautions are observed to prevent injury to persons or damage to property and if the provisions of the Act and these Regulations are observed as far as they are otherwise applicable."

testimento - 3-11-2013 at 08:07

Urea?

Are you serious?

I bet the next thing on the watch is gonna be sodium chloride or even hydrogen monoxide.

Fenir - 3-11-2013 at 14:13

It will sure be fun when hydrogen hydroxide and hydric acid are banned

testimento - 4-11-2013 at 02:29

All the chemicals will be protected with licensing and controlling sooner or later. Fertilizers will be restricted only for registered company farmers, and individuals can purchase fertilizers where only urea is used as source for nitrogen. All the special uses, like labs and processes are covered with licenses.

The large companies won't be affected any of these regulations, though. A single license can easily cost between 400 to 30 000 euros or dollars, but billion-dollar industry it is just a chich, but on the other hand, a small company can barely stand these costs. All in all, every step will increase the costs of commercial products that customers buy. The industry always moves the costs to prices.

For the sake of reality, not everyhing can be ever banned, and from one chemical arises several others. Naturally, the routes for any chemicals can be effectively restricted by simply banning the sales of most catalytic materials and other reactive, basic chemicals.

In my country, this is pretty much reality already. The country is governed by few large companies, which sell only ready-mixed stuff for customers and DIY is really out of season here. Individual cannot buy ANY chemical labeled so without getting quickly raided. The few companies that sell chemicals, industry or research, cooperate with officials real time, and I have been raided just asking prices for some very common materials like acetic acid.

[Edited on 4-11-2013 by testimento]

woelen - 12-8-2014 at 05:11

The regulations, discussed in this thread, are real and already have their first effects. One of the sellers from which I purchased chemicals in the past already quit selling chlorates and perchlorates and will not start selling these again.

What is even more disturbing is that even possession of pure chlorates, perchlorates, nitric acid more than 3%, conc. H2O2 and nitromethane soon will not be allowed anymore. This means that I will have to remove quite a few experiments from my website in which these chemicals are used. It seems that fines for making, possession and using of these chemicals can be huge and possession of these can even lead to imprisonment (concrete numbers are mentioned in the UK, such as max. 2 years imprisonment, but in other parts of the EU these things most likely will be similar)! E.g., writing about your succesful chlorate cell can be risky, you are not allowed to make chlorates! The same is true for making fairly concentrated HNO3 from NOx, air and water, where the NOx easily can be made from sodium nitrite (curing salt) and sodium bisulfate (pH-minus for swimming pools). I think that not the making of these chemicals is risky, but writing about your (succesful) experiments will become risky, let alone writing a fancy web page about these processes so that others also easily can do these things with commonly available materials and easy to obtain legal chemicals.

If results cannot be shared anymore safely, then for me the fun is gone and I may even quit when this becomes really serious :(



[Edited on 12-8-14 by woelen]

Texium - 12-8-2014 at 08:17

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  

If results cannot be shared anymore safely, then for me the fun is gone and I may even quit when this becomes really serious :(
Oh no! That would be terrible... Although I do know what you mean about worrying about not being able to share results. That's something that I already have to think about often, living in Texas.

prof_genius - 12-8-2014 at 11:08

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  

For example: We found some copper(II)nitrate at your home; our analysis showed that this is home-made. Where do you have the permit to use nitric acid with more than 0.1 (3)% to prepare that stuff?

How could they tell it is homemade? If they claim they found impurities commonly found in homemade copper(II)nitrate, tell them it is technical grade, after all all reagents have impurities.

Scr0t - 12-8-2014 at 14:20

I think he meant that just as an example, that if you had something that's not illegal but it could be deduced that you must have broken the law in order to make it then they could use it against you.

Even if they could do this (for this substance) it's unlikely they'll devote the time and resources to it, unless they're determined to get you at all costs like Al Capone.
Getting the subject to incriminate themselves is far easier and more cost effective.

You could say you made the Cu(NO3)2 before >3% HNO3 became a controlled substance.
You could say it's not yours, maybe the copper nitrate fairies left it there.
Use your rights and say nothing at all, make them work for it.

Brain&Force - 13-8-2014 at 15:22

woelen, feel free to move your content to the Sciencemadness Wiki if you want to take down your website. Or we can do it for you. Either way, losing your website would be a tragedy to everyone in the Sciencemadness community.

woelen - 15-8-2014 at 02:07

@Brain&Force: For the time being this is not (yet) an issue. I am looking into how to continue. The purchase of the chemicals will be forbidden from Sept. 2014, the making, possession, and use of the chemicals will be forbidden from March 2016. It is the latter which worries me the most. After that data I _may_ have to remove some experiments from my website, but that would be a very sad thing to do.

It is a weird and utterly sad thing. Simply having certain scientific experiments on your website may lead to problems in the near future. For me, however, it is not worth the potential problems. I have a family, a job and associated responsibilities and I do not want others to get involved in trouble because of my interests.

[Edited on 15-8-14 by woelen]

strontiumred - 15-8-2014 at 03:16

It would be a great shame if you took down your website Woelen, as it has provided a great deal of inspiration for many on here, but I do understand you not wanting to get into trouble further down the line. There is such a lot of content on your site that would not be risky that you could probably keep.

When I started my website I decided to concentrate only on transition metal chemistry for exactly the same reason, that the laws were about to change in the EU.
I've never been into energetics, so luckily most of the changes will only have a limited effect on me.

Best Wishes,
SR.

phlogiston - 20-8-2014 at 02:29

Woelen, perhaps a possible solution to maintain your current content would be to include a very clear statement that these experiments were performed before the new regulations became effective?

It would be tragic. You have published such a diverse and great set of very interesting experiments and skilled observations, and the quality and attention to detail of much of it exceeds that of work done in many university labs (they just have infinately bettter access to resources).

The terrible dillema wheter it would be worthwhile/possible within legal limits to continue experiments at all remains, ofcourse. It felt very similar when I gave up pyrotechnic experiments many years ago for similar reasons, (started a family, and essentially the joy I got from it did not balance against the ever increasingly worse legal consequences of getting in trouble). I disposed of all of the related chemicals and equipment that took many years to acquire, and that hurt. I found sufficiently interesting science/chemistry-related pursuits that are legal. With the new limitations, some of those things become impossible too if one tries to stay within legal limits, even if they are perfectly harmless and not even chemistry-related but hard to do without certain chemicals (eg. decapping ICs).

I fear that once lost, it will be essentially impossible to ever regain freedoms. Regulations hardly ever loosen.

I guess most of us have always expected regulations to worsen, but this is a sudden step of surprising magnitude in the wrong direction.

[Edited on 20-8-2014 by phlogiston]

[Edited on 20-8-2014 by phlogiston]

Pyro - 20-8-2014 at 03:47

a way around it, to still be able to post results would be to put in a disclaimer:
''the following is a theoretical experiment, all chemicals have been substituted''

here is a potential profit for those willing to risk it, selling banned reagents.

the sad thing is that most of us could make a bomb without the banned substances if we wanted. this ban just makes legit. chemistry harder.

phlogiston - 20-8-2014 at 04:36

Contrary to popular opinion here, it seeems at least, I suspect it will be somewhat effective against some individuals trying to obtain materials for less than commendable purposes. I don't think people acting alone with little chemical knowledge have that many channels available to them (that they are aware of).

However, inventive/creative/determined individuals or groups with the right network will not be stopped by simple measures like this.

Alas, our opinion probably matters little at this point. Does anyone have any idea how we might approach regaining some freedom in the long run. Who do we influence and how?

[Edited on 20-8-2014 by phlogiston]

woelen - 20-8-2014 at 23:46

I have been looking around about the regulations on what effect it has on other home chemists, what people are doing with their published results and so on. I could not find anything else about this. Apparently very few people are worried about this effect of the regulations.

What I did find, surprisingly, is an amazingly large number of sellers, who sell 53 ... 69% HNO3, 96% H2SO4, 50% H2O2 online simply as cleaning stuff, together with Ecostyle products and other OTC products. I tried one of these sellers near where I live and I could buy 50% H2O2 without any questions asked, as easy as buying a liter of dishwashing soap. Its intended use is as cleaner for streets, concrete tiles and that kind of things, removing algae and other green/black crap in an environmentally friendly way (H2O2 has a very short half life in nature and decomposes to harmless water and oxygen).

I bought a liter of this, just to try how easy it is to buy this and it is useful anyway: http://www.werkenmetmerken.nl/nl/waterstofperoxide_50_/p/731...
No questions at all, no paperwork, just pick it up, pay and go. So, I now have 50% H2O2 and will see what experiments I can do with that. Shipping it to your home is possible as well for EUR 6 or so, even free shipping if your total order is above EUR 50.

This same company also has all mineral acids (nitric, hydrochloric, sulphuric, phosphoric and a few organic ones), it has some bases and some other chemicals like KMnO4, all as OTC products.

There is not one such a company, but quite a few, another one is this: http://deoplosmiddelspecialist.nl/

Furthermore, I have seen numerous occasions of companies selling pure acetone, 53% HNO3, 96% H2SO4 and 30% H2O2. Companies like drogist.nl, weegschaal.nl, accense.nl, which are aimed at health products, lifestyle and outdoor living. They have annex 1 and annex 2 chemicals in their range of products at high concentrations.

This is striking, especially with the upcoming regulations in mind. I never knew that there are so many companies, selling this kind of chemicals. Shipping of these chemicals also is no problem, they can be shipped for EUR 7 or so. I have the impression that many of these companies do not even know that they have dangerous goods in their product line.


[Edited on 21-8-14 by woelen]

IrC - 22-8-2014 at 02:33

Woelen,

Many suppliers may be lax in order to get rid of their inventories before the law goes into effect as they know they will lose most of their customer base. They may lower prices for the same reason. I do not understand why you feel you need to dump your website or drastically reduce it over these laws. Unless you fear it will make them go inspect your lab and find things they do not like which before this law were perfectly fine. If you have already removed the newly outlawed items before the laws take effect what difference can it make? Are you saying that censorship of knowledge is going to be part of these new laws? Or that the mere presence of your experiments online using newly outlawed chemicals will somehow make you be held accountable for others doing experiments who refuse to obey the law? If this is the case I would call that a bridge too far.

If so maybe you should copy the entire site now and sell CD's (or DVD's if too large) here on SCM. I have studied many experiments on your site and copying the entire site before it vanishes is something I do not have enough time to do. If your going to delete much of it at least give warning so I can copy some of the more interesting work you have done for my own local offline reference. You have created far too much very interesting and useful knowledge for it to be wasted. At the very least see if Polverone can host it here where it remains legal. Something like : sciencemadness.org/woelen/ ?

phlogiston - 22-8-2014 at 05:41

I noticed that on that 50% hydrogen peroxide product page (at www.werkenmetmerken.nl), In the corner where it says 'customers also looked at', it lists acetone. Apparently the combination is often looked at. I am not sure whether that combination of products makes sense for any purpose other than the most obvious one (to us).

But indeed, it used to be difficult to buy but for a few years it has been possible to buy nitric acid OTC in many places here in the Netherlands. I know at least 3 very basic drug stores nearby that sell 53% nitric acid. One has it in stock, the other 2 order it upon request, no questions asked. I will try this week if they still sell it, curious whether they will warn me of the upcoming regulations.

[Edited on 22-8-2014 by phlogiston]

woelen - 22-8-2014 at 08:48

If I were you, I would not start talking yourself about these regulations. That may trigger them to have a close look at the chemicals and may lead to loss of such OTC sources. But it is interesting to see whether they themselves start talking about these regulations. I have the impression that many sellers do not know of these regulations at all. Only the real chemical warehouses probably know about them, but the gardening stores, lifestyle stores and so on have other things at their mind at the moment with declining sales, due to the economical recession.

I also noticed that acetone is looked at in combination with H2O2 35% and H2O2 50%. I also checked the pages for ethanol, MEK, isopropyl alcohol, but none of these pages refer to the pages about acetone. I would expect such connections more, because all of these are solvents and acetone also is. So, indeed, k3wls and maybe even worse people who really want to make bombs apparently also find this kind of pages and that is worrying.

woelen - 22-8-2014 at 09:03

Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
[...] I do not understand why you feel you need to dump your website or drastically reduce it over these laws. Unless you fear it will make them go inspect your lab and find things they do not like which before this law were perfectly fine. If you have already removed the newly outlawed items before the laws take effect what difference can it make?[...]
This is exactly the reason why I may have to remove the experiments from my website. I have quite a few chemicals in my lab, which at the moment are perfectly fine (e.g. HNO3, homemade chlorates, perchlorates, H2O2, CH3NO2) but which will be forbidden (even to posses) at March 2016. So, if I have experiments on my website, using these chemicals, then of course the law enforcement people can draw their conclusion that I (still) have these chemicals and if they decide to inspect my lab and find these chemicals, then I may have big trouble. Possession of these chemicals is considered a criminal offense and will lead to a so-called criminal record, which may lead to loss of your job and other limitations in daily life. In the Netherlands you really are socially handicapped if you have a criminal record, and that is something which I certainly do not want to have.

Another option would be to get rid of these specific Annex I chemicals before March 2016 and if they inspect my lab, then they will not find anything illegal. Up to now I never feared officials and I even have had a journalist have a look into my lab a few years ago, and I told openly about what I did. This was quite fascinating. This also is what makes me most sad. People who do nothing illegal and have done so for many years suddenly are considered criminals if they continue doing what they did years before. Doing scientific research and experiments, even if done safely and responsibly at microscale without any risk for the environment and people around you, can be a criminal offense with the new upcoming laws :mad:

I am not yet sure what I will do. I still have some time to think it over . . .

[Edited on 22-8-14 by woelen]

Texium - 22-8-2014 at 10:02

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
I even have had a journalist have a look into my lab a few years ago, and I told openly about what I did. This was quite fascinating.
That's interesting, did they publish anything about you?

woelen - 22-8-2014 at 12:45

Yes, they recorded for dutch radio (Wereldomroep, which means World Channel). They made a series about people having non-standard interests, and they chose to add a home chemist to this series as well. It was a honest series of radio programs, not the usual sensation seeking or mythbuster-like stuff. My contribution was a short item where I told something about my hobby, why I am interested and what kind of things I do. We even recorded sounds like pouring a liquid from one beaker to another, sound of pieces of glassware touching each other, and I told something about cobalt chemistry (the peculiar changes of color of Co(OH)2 from blue to pink: http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/solutions/co.html ) and that this kind of things fascinates me and that I like to investigate it and also want to understand why such things occur. I also demonstrated some nice reactions to the person who interviewed me (including the formation and change of color of Co(OH)2) and this person was interested and liked it. These demos of course could not make it into the program, because it was radio.

So, there fortunately are people who are interested and do not think of bombs or drugs when they hear about home chemistry. Unfortunately, the new upcoming laws in the EU also make part of this kind of truly scientifically driven home chemistry illegal.



[Edited on 22-8-14 by woelen]

Pyro - 22-8-2014 at 15:27

I don't think they will have an eye on you Woelen, it's not like you are stockpiling kg's of those things and using them to make bombs. your website is a testament to that as you clearly explain what is happening, how, why,...

I don't know about in NE, but over here cops are pretty cool about things. They are reasonable, understanding and have plenty of common sense.

phlogiston - 22-8-2014 at 16:45

Dutch cops are generally reasonable and trustworthy, and it is completely obvious (to us) that someone like woelen presents no harm to society but 'rules are rules'.
I think he is right to be careful and not hope to be exempt from regulations/receive special treatment even if all the available evidence supports the view that he wouldn't harm a fly.

[Edited on 23-8-2014 by phlogiston]

IrC - 23-8-2014 at 13:29

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  
Dutch cops are generally reasonable and trustworthy, and it is completely obvious (to us) that someone like woelen presents no harm to society but 'rules are rules'.
I think he is right to be careful and not hope to be exempt from regulations/receive special treatment even if all the available evidence supports the view that he wouldn't harm a fly.


"'rules are rules'?" Who makes these rules? Why? Over terrorism? Are we supposed to believe the combined governments in Europe could not join together and wipe out a few thousand murderers? They do not want to. Why? Because it gives them perfect justification to keep their citizens under tyrannical rule. How can I conclude this you may ask? A - study of the history of Europe, happens over and over. It's happening again. B - I repeat "Are we supposed to believe the combined governments in Europe could not join together and wipe out a few thousand murderers?", which would allow citizens by the multiple millions live in peace, without fear again. Allow the youth to experiment in science without all the laws forcing chemistry students either underground, into jails, or into serving hamburgers for a living. Or whatever it is you eat over there. Yes it's happening here as well don't think I am unaware of it. Yes Polverone this post is on topic since I am discussing the prime motivation behind governments of the world outlawing the name of this site, 'mad science', amateur science if you will. I wondered why woelen was so concerned with his site in 3 years so I went out studying and found this.

"Home secretary Theresa May said she was preparing new laws to tackle Islamist militants at home and to stop them going abroad to fight, adding that Britain faced a long struggle against a “deadly extremist ideology”.

We will be engaged in this struggle for many years, probably decades. We must give ourselves all the legal powers we need to prevail,” May wrote in the Daily Telegraph newspaper.

While details are yet to be confirmed, Ms May said the new powers would be designed to restrict the militants’ behavior, ban involvement in groups preaching violence and require prisons, broadcasters, schools and universities to take a greater role in combating the radicalization of Muslims.

In other words, the British government will decide what is appropriate behavior, what groups Britons may join, what can be broadcast over the media and discussed in schools and universities.

The proposed law will augment Britain’s Section 44 Terrorism Act. It allows police to decide who is a terrorist and grants them the authority to search and detain citizens. The law is used on a regular basis against peaceful and lawful protesters.

Britain has enacted a number of successively restrictive laws. In 2000, before the 9/11 attacks in America and the July, 2005 attacks in London, the UK passed the Terrorism Act 2000 which makes it an offense to collect or possess information likely to be used by a terrorist."

The part I highlighted in red applies indirectly to woelen based upon the tendency for nations in the EU to eventually pass similar laws. Coming soon to us here I have no doubt. Am I wrong to assume therefore the section in red makes a large percentage of all the threads on this site in violation of law? That merely studying energetics for example, or any chemistry which could cause harm in certain circumstances. In effect if you own a chemistry book or have downloaded threads from this or many other websites online you are in effect 'in possession of information which a terrorist could use'. Am I wrong in concluding this?

Some of you think I am being too political for this thread but am I really? Does this not spell doom for every single citizen with an interest in and love of learning science? Again I must ask why? Because terrorists exist? Our endeavors in science should condemn us to criminal prosecution because and I must quote it again: "Are we supposed to believe the combined governments in Europe could not join together and wipe out a few thousand murderers?"

Quoting Home secretary Theresa May "We will be engaged in this struggle for many years, probably decades. We must give ourselves all the legal powers we need to prevail,” May wrote in the Daily Telegraph newspaper."

Must I say it yet again? "Are we supposed to believe the combined governments in Europe could not join together and wipe out a few thousand murderers?"

If they did then all excuses for destroying our pursuit of science, of chemistry, would vanish forever would it not? Instead of taking decades during which law abiding citizens must live under tyranny and have their few precious years of lifespan wasted while they are no longer allowed to experiment, to invent, to build, to create, put on hold. Is political correctness the reason they do not go out and wipe out terrorism today instead of 'taking decades'? Will you in your 80's then be allowed to go back to living in peace and happiness, resuming your pursuits of science? Trust me I'm in my 60's and exposure to many not friendly elements has my health so shot I can barely do any work anymore. Let alone decades from now. An added bonus would be hundreds of thousands of Christians and peaceful Muslims being slaughtered in the Middle East by ISIS right now could regain their lives, return to their homes. Does anyone not believe these victims would turn and defend themselves if they saw ISIS on the run being pursued by a global force? If they saw they had a chance to live? Crimes against humanity? One is the UN sitting idly by watching this all take place while doing nothing.

Again Polverone, I am not off topic if one considers the fall out of this subject is the never ending encroaching of draconian laws against our pursuit of science. While not one damn thing is being done to stop this global madness, everything is being done to criminalize us. The law abiding citizens of the world who just so happen to prefer a night in the lab to a day at the beach.

I must conclude there is a reason they are not telling you for not going out in full force and mercilessly removing this threat globally to our safety and freedom. Tyranny, the human propensity and love of having power and control over the populations of the world. Period. Proof you ask? I'll say it one more time: "Are we supposed to believe the combined governments in Europe could not join together and wipe out a few thousand murderers?". I will add to this my government in the U.S. Our governments could gather together the force required, the will required to end this threat, this reason they are forcing us to either give up our science forever or to live as criminals when we have never been at any time people anyone needs to worry about or live in fear of.

Because if they did then once again we could live peacefully, hobby stores would again carry the Testor lines of chemicals, supplies and glassware, we could play with our science as I remember doing in the 50's and 60's.

After all is not their justification for these laws global terrorism? Then end it for all time. Let us go back to our laboratories creating new advances and new generations of students with a love for the physical sciences.

roXefeller - 23-8-2014 at 14:36
Quote:

Are we supposed to believe the combined governments in Europe could not join together and wipe out a few thousand murderers? They do not want to. Why? Because it gives them perfect justification to keep their citizens under tyrannical rule.


While I agree that some leaders like to leverage against the criminal class to strip rights from those in the middle, like scissors, authoritarians squeezing from the top even harder because they've enabled the criminals to push up from the bottom. "President ___ save us from these criminals that you've enabled by releasing early from prison, giving guns, money..." However the notion that with one brisk strike all leaders could strike down the murders has been tried. Australia, they rounded up the 'criminals' and dumped them far away from the 'peaceful' class, leaving the 'peaceful' class to live in peace. This relies upon the assumption that the line between good and evil lies between people, this one good, that one evil. The reason the Australia experiment didn't work is because that assumption is false, the line between good and evil lies somewhere down every one of us, me, you, Rosco, everyone. Criminal policy needs to focus on keeping each of us on the good side of the line by punishing the behaviors that land on the bad. Where did the current malcontents of Europe come from if they were all sent away to Australia? Did the penal residents swim back to Europe and repopulate? Or the 'peaceful' class wasn't so peaceful and turned criminal. You can't fight criminality by giving away all your rights to an authoritarian regime to fix things for you, then expect to receive those rights when all is done. That is well settled. Current criminal policy debate tries to offer suggestions how you fight criminality knowing the previous assumption is false. And its a difficult question, leading to all the different opinions.

IrC - 23-8-2014 at 15:23

I think your missing two very important things. One, if your right, then why do these laws never have delimiters which recognize a law abiding class of citizens who love science. Laws stemming from the drug wars included. Why cannot I legally possess P among other elements due to my desire to create new semiconducting and superconducting materials? For other experiments such as polarized plastics I included. They pass these laws giving no 'corner' for amateur science. They are outlawed across the board period. End of sentence. No room whatsoever, no consideration given to us. I defy all to prove me wrong. Look at Texas idiotic glassware laws. Same thing. Considering amateur science, one must conclude few can afford big bucks for legal permits, regulations, what have you. Look at all the laws. Not one is ever written with due consideration for lawful purposes. P, I, other chemicals, all listed. We are individuals we have no lobbyists to represent us when these laws are written. We have no money, no voice for such things.

Second, I was not talking about eliminating the evil people within your borders. You have law enforcement for that. I was talking about a multinational force going to the place where terrorists have their greatest numbers and wiping them out. Believe me if this was done the few scattered in other countries would be far less emboldened to do harm when they had no support structure. In my opinion anyone wishing to have influence in these matters whether politically or militarily, should be required to first master the concepts in a very old text. 'The Art of War'.

Something I am wondering about, what preconceived or subconscious notion generated this: "me, you, Rosco". 3 pages, Rosco has not said a word in this thread. But what bothers me most is after careful consideration of your entire post roXefeller I am left with one unalterable conclusion. Complete gibberish, all of it. No logical reasoning, no consideration of history nor reality. You are by implication assuming the globe is populated by quasi Jekyl/Hydes only waiting for the throw of the dice for bad behavior to jump out. I am decades old. I have known nice decent kind people who were that way when we played as toddlers and who remained that way until their death decades later, never once exhibiting 'bad behavior'. Sure they may have had bad days but they had no inherent propensity for evil within their souls. If you are a religious person you may believe a demon could possess someone making them instantly turn evil. I suppose you could say yes this possibly happens in reality. But I have to wonder if true what kind of person they were to begin with making them open to said possession. While I do not believe a switch flips from Jekyl to Hyde or back if someone is inherently a decent person (not insane whether openly or hidden to begin with), I do believe degeneration of a soul can occur if they subject themselves to continued 'evil'. In effect I believe they can brainwash themselves for lack of better terms by immersing themselves continually in a world of negative. They 'made themselves go bad'. I believe I see this all around me with this current up and coming generation. Remove decency, goodness, morals completely from society and fill it with nothing but evil 24/7/365 and what is there to fill them but evil.

I have known SOB's as well. They were SOB'S as children and remained so all of their life. I can only conclude through life experience many are decent every day of their lives, many were bad from day one. I have seen 'bad' people improve. I have seen fairly 'good' people go bad, often from some life pressure which became more than they could cope with. I have never known any terrorists nor any who became so in their adult years. However from experience I have learned any who would were seriously messed up in the head from a very young age. There was not some switch flipped. No doubt the possibility exists, history likely bears this out, but I have never known any who did. I firmly believe for someone to listen to a religious leader preaching hate and murder and this causes that one to go out killing, the propensity to be murderous existed within long before they acted it out in reality. Long before they started listening to leaders preaching hate. In fact I can only conclude it is because that propensity for evil existed within that they were drawn towards these voices for evil in the first place. I have never known a decent loving kind soul who would listen to such insanity, they instantly reject it the moment it is encountered. Precisely because this tendency towards evil did not live within them from day one.

I bring all this up and dismiss your premise because you are in effect saying all dangerous chemicals must be outlawed because at any moment one of us may suddenly 'flip out' and go on a mad rampage. Because the tendency of all of us is to be both good and evil which can flip at any moment. Or at least you are trying to use this premise as justification for these draconian laws. I say bull crap to your premise. Do you think I would be afraid to live near woelen while he possessed HNO3 higher than 60 percent because I should fear one day he may suddenly go mad? This is living in fear beyond my understanding. To live in fear like this is to not live at all. I use woelen as example since he is the main voice in this thread and he stands to lose the most from these new laws. In reality I suppose many are since no doubt his site is a great learning resource and would be a loss to many if it is taken down because of these new laws.
------------------------------------------

zts16, I'll answer your below comment here, as I do not wish to keep adding posts along lines driving the discussion in a direction other than on topic. I only brought up what I did based upon my conclusion that if the war on terror is the reason governments are legislating away our ability to work in science, removing this threat is the only hope we have left or we will be forced out of our endeavors forever. Assuming it is their only motivation. However discussion along these lines only serves to go further off topic, unless one is trying to discover the reason for these new and ever encroaching laws.

zts16 "I think when he was talking about how people can change and criminals can spring up out of peaceful societies he's referring to it in a more broad, generational sense."

I do not think so based upon this comment:

roXefeller "The reason the Australia experiment didn't work is because that assumption is false, the line between good and evil lies somewhere down every one of us, me, you, Rosco, everyone. Criminal policy needs to focus on keeping each of us on the good side of the line by punishing the behaviors that land on the bad."

I must say this is I think one of the most absurd positions I have read on SCM. To begin with that assumption is NOT false. Australia may have started as a penal colony centuries ago but it evolved into a great nation, in no way can one conclude the "Australia experiment didn't work". On the second part no one who is intrinsically law abiding needs the law to keep them in line. People by their nature either live right or they do not. Do you really think roXefeller that your neighbors are not axe murderers merely because they live in fear of the law? This is one twisted view of people, of reality no matter how you look at it. Has it never occurred to you they are not attacking you simply because they intrinsically wish to live in peace and have decent hearts, not because as you say they fear getting caught?

In fact this is not even possible and the crime rate in any city you care to study proves this. The law does not keep criminals from being such, it merely attempts to catch and stop them whenever it can. Are some crimes not committed by persons who have this tendency but fear getting caught? I am sure this is true but it in no way alters the fact that the premise you posted has no validity. Quite the opposite, your premise is completely whacked. I can think of few better ways to state it. Society as a whole is not in the majority staying in line because the law forces them to. Rather, by their free will the majority chooses to do right by their neighbors because this is the kind of people they are. In some possible survival situation where society has broken down or during some event where a mob has devolved into some form of group insanity (the lynch mob), I could see your premise as having some validity. However this is not what you were talking about. You were stating the law is the only reason everyone is not evil all of the time. I vehemently disagree.


[Edited on 8-24-2014 by IrC]

Texium - 23-8-2014 at 20:45

I think when he was talking about how people can change and criminals can spring up out of peaceful societies he's referring to it in a more broad, generational sense. While I might not be a criminal, I would have no idea if perhaps generations onward one of my great-great-grandchildren would be for whatever circumstances would lead them to be. Because there are always criminals repopulating in this manner, there is really no way to stop them unless all causes of crime are completely eradicated, which will unfortunately never happen.

Also, the trying to wipe out terrorists where they're strongest thing sounds a lot like what America has been trying to do in vain for the past 13 years or however long it's been now. It's just not worth it. More lives lost, more destruction caused, really more terror caused than prevented.

roXefeller - 24-8-2014 at 04:19

I'll try to overlook your rudely worded rebut. But I will say that a poorly staged science experiment leaves only poor inferences. It sounds like you are using observations from a small subset of humanity, during a small subset of the human condition, to make very large and almost absolute inferences. You wouldn't do that in the lab.
Quote:

I bring all this up and dismiss your premise because you are in effect saying all dangerous chemicals must be outlawed because at any moment one of us may suddenly 'flip out' and go on a mad rampage. Because the tendency of all of us is to be both good and evil which can flip at any moment. Or at least you are trying to use this premise as justification for these draconian laws. I say bull crap to your premise. Do you think I would be afraid to live near woelen while he possessed HNO3 higher than 60 percent because I should fear one day he may suddenly go mad? This is living in fear beyond my understanding. To live in fear like this is to not live at all. I use woelen as example since he is the main voice in this thread and he stands to lose the most from these new laws. In reality I suppose many are since no doubt his site is a great learning resource and would be a loss to many if it is taken down because of these new laws.


I'd like to defend this however because I wasn't saying that. Those who issue draconian laws aren't caring about the moral welfare of the subjects (although there could be a few cases where this is false, such as the puritanical prohibition laws of the US). I refute draconian laws to force a peaceful citizenry. It is obvious that many in the energetics forum perform somewhat illegal acts mainly because the explosives laws are too onerous for the sake of saving a hundred people from the act of one terrorist. The terrorist is already doing something illegal, he doesn't care that he is also ignoring manufacture of explosives law. I believe many SM members would be licensed if it wasn't a PITA to get it, most members don't want to be outside of the law. I'm not positive how to correct this onerous law, but something along the lines of the concealed weapons permits might be better. They are simple to obtain in most states of the US (some states are onerous though). And that simple act says alot about the holder's purpose. Statistics show that those persons holding it are one of the safest, law-abiding subsets. Gun crimes are most often committed by non-permitees. I suspect something similar would be helpful for the energetics community. I can speak from experience when I say it is very easy to acquire things on the prohibited list when you have a explosives manufacturing license. I'm able to buy those restricted items easily because I am upfront about it. My recent purchase of acetic anhydride, I was asked my intended use, I replied 'the manufacture of nitramines'. No problem. They even made some calls to their delivery company to get the material to me with cheap shipping rates. That's how it is supposed to work. I wish the licensing process wasn't so burdensome. I don't think highly of the EU regulations. I hope it isn't as bad as previous attempts to round up firearms with only power grabs in mind:

Bureaucracies generally try to fix problems with more rules. And when those rules don't work, they apply more still. It is generally with good intentions (aside from the above). But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I work for a US department, I've seen the dumb use of rulemaking to fix problems. Brevity is the soul of wit, simple laws are probably better as well. “The greatest ideas are the simplest.” “Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” “Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.”

[Edited on 24-8-2014 by roXefeller]

Scr0t - 19-3-2015 at 10:41

I now see that DCM, dichloroethane and toluene are no longer easily available under EU Regulation 552/2009 annex XVII.

Bastards!

Loptr - 19-3-2015 at 11:06

Quote: Originally posted by Scr0t  
I now see that DCM, dichloroethane and toluene are no longer easily available under EU Regulation 552/2009 annex XVII.

Bastards!


So what do DCM and DCE have to do with explosives? Is it the solubility of nitric acid within them that allows you break the azeotrope the reason for this?

Scr0t - 19-3-2015 at 11:35

Quote: Originally posted by Loptr  

So what do DCM and DCE have to do with explosives? Is it the solubility of nitric acid within them that allows you break the azeotrope the reason for this?

The title of of thread is about EU regulations that's why I posted this here.

Loptr - 19-3-2015 at 11:37

Quote: Originally posted by Scr0t  
Quote: Originally posted by Loptr  

So what do DCM and DCE have to do with explosives? Is it the solubility of nitric acid within them that allows you break the azeotrope the reason for this?

The title of of thread is about EU regulations that's why I posted this here.


I was asking why they are covered by the legislation, not question why you posted here. Sorry, I think I have the word "asshole" written across my forehead, because you are the second person to think I was saying something other than what I intended to.

The legislation was about explosives, from my understanding, and I was curious what they had to do with them.

[Edited on 19-3-2015 by Loptr]

Scr0t - 19-3-2015 at 11:50

Health, safety and environmental protection. One has to be a company or a professional and fill a declaration of use form.

woelen - 19-3-2015 at 13:26

I live in NL and DCM is no problem at all. It can be purchased at many places, no questions asked.
DCE is harder to get, but simply because it is much less common.
Toluene depends on the seller, it is not regulated by government. Some sellers don't sell it to ordinary citizens, others do.

The regulation, mentioned by scr0t is quite old already, it is from the second half of the 1990's and it is reformulated in 2009 in order to harmonize it with REACH. It is especially geared towards regulating the use of harmful or potentially dangerous compounds in all kinds of consumer products. Here follows the 2009 text:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELE...

Actually, I largely agree with this kind of regulation (e.g. cadmium compounds should not be used for coloring purposes of packaging materials or toys, arsenic compounds should not be used for protecting wood, boat's hulls and that kind of things). This kind of regulation is of a very different nature than the new upcoming regulation 2013/98 which is about explosives and is much wider, because that forbids not only consumer products but totally forbids the possession and use of certain compounds by ordinary citizens.

Scr0t - 19-3-2015 at 14:47

In spite of it being quite old two of my former suppliers have recently changed policy and wont sell these chemicals to individuals anymore citing this EU regulation.

woelen - 20-3-2015 at 09:16

As I wrote, it depends on the supplier. They probably stopped selling it, because they don't want liability issues.

Scr0t - 20-3-2015 at 17:30

Indeed, DCM is still available on the shelf in paint stripper and other European suppliers are still selling it. It's just the coincidence of two suppliers near to me doing this within 2 months of each other gave me cause to think that something was afoot woelen.

craigfire - 22-3-2015 at 20:15

Yes it's new and very strict in Europe. I have a business partner in London complaining about lots of new regulations.

Chem Rage - 28-3-2015 at 09:32

As an enthusiastic UK-based chemist (both in terms of hobby and profession), I must admit that I am very annoyed at this oppressive EU Nanny Statism. The EU seems to ban anything that gives us pleasure. I mean, toluene is pretty much a very useful laboratory staple, in terms of its solvent properties (both for organics and inorganics like sulphur), and as a starting material for numerous aromatic compounds.

I rely heavily on toluene and other common organics for my natural product extractions.

We need to use our vote to leave the EU (which is, for all intents and purposes, an unelected and unaccountable dictatorship) at the soonest possible opportunity. Are we to sit back and watch our freedoms being eroded away?

PS: although I have only just signed up (I thought I had to give a piece of my mind on these oppressive EU bans and restrictions), I have been following this forum for quite some time. :P Any other UK-based amateur chemists, please introduce yourself.




[Edited on 28-3-2015 by Chem Rage]

aga - 28-3-2015 at 13:54

Hi Chem Rage.

I agree with your sentiments.

I left the UK for Spain 10 years ago, entirely due to the Weather.

Spain seems to have some way of Complying with EU regulations, yet ignores them completely at the same time.

Last week i went into a corner shop and bought two litres of 98% H2SO4 and a kilo of NaOH, and 18 cans of beer all for about €10.

Passing by the bins a month back i was astonished to see a discarded 50 litre barrel with the label '58% Nitric Acid' on it.

Oh. It also said 'Agricultural use only' !

Magpie - 29-3-2015 at 10:27

Quote: Originally posted by aga  

It also said 'Agricultural use only' !


That'll stop them! :D

kecskesajt - 16-6-2015 at 03:37

In Hungary you can still bus 95% H2SO2,35% H2O2,53% HNO3, 100% acetone,97% KNO3,100% AN without any question.And its still in the EU.

BJ68 - 27-2-2016 at 07:07

The grace period will end 02. March 2016 for use, possession, buying of Annex I chemicals with higher concentration and it seems that governments do not see the need for permits for private people.

Additionally there is an other issue which will concern people which are making gum-bichromate prints commercially:
http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/processes/gum-bichr...

Bj68

Fantasma4500 - 1-3-2016 at 21:26

in regards of chlorates and perchlorates -- if you took a bag with a 601g rock and filled 400g potassium chlorate into it, would they really consider the rock to be part of the bags mixture or would they have to look at particle size difference etc? because there seems to be nothing mentioned of particle size contrasts

Marvin - 3-3-2016 at 04:18

Some pyrotechnic suppliers avoided US magnesium powder rules by shipping a mixture of 400 mesh powder and turnings, which could be trivially separated using a course sieve. In this case I think it worked around specific wording of a dust percentage and I think it was a shipping requirement not a possession or use requirement.

In the case of perchlorates, and with EU law which has a reputation of hinging less on technicalities than US law I'd think a rock definitely isn't going to cut it. The only loophole I can see in UK law that might work is a mixture of oxidisers, but that's not so useful in pyrotechnics. You could register as a business, but you may find yourself needing to jump through a lot more hoops to cope with all the extra rules. You can dissolve what you have in water and store it in bottles but if it ever gets to a judge it will be pointed out that any reasonable use is going to involve drying it out to the pure compound first, in the same way that any reasonable use of the powder with a rock in is going to involve taking out the rock.

Fortunately we have a licencing system here so buying and using oxidisers stronger than nitrates isn't closed to me.

There are also exemptions that are not well explained for uses of some compounds in high concentrations.

Fantasma4500 - 5-3-2016 at 00:05

smaller rocks then, aha.
potassium perchlorate and potassium nitrate in 40 60 ratio could be used, actually..
for fertilizing your lawn -- that is!
i would say if we had to go for metal powder and turnings mixup, then it would be really that difficult to get hold of iron shavings from saws, it would have great density, and that would mean it would be more compact and much cheaper than using magnesium turnings, supposing the mixture is in weight and not volume proportions

i got to think about perchloric acid, it doesnt seem to be really regulated??

woelen - 5-3-2016 at 09:31

Perchloric acid is not regulated, but for pyrotechnic purposes (or terrorist purposes if we think like the people who made these laws) it is not interesting, because it is MUCH more expensive than KClO4. Expect to pay appr. EUR 70 for a liter of 60...70 % HClO4. Making KClO4 from this is possible, but the cost of the KClO4 would come close to EUR 100 per kilo and then it is not interesting at all anymore.

Perchloric acid is interesting though for chemical experiments and it is good that it is still available, albeit at a high price. For chemistry experiments with the acid, you can go a long way with 250 ml or so.

phlogiston - 5-3-2016 at 12:06

I was surprised to still find a liter bottle of acetone at a large well-known hardware store. Bought it because it is excellent for removing the photoresist layer of circuit boards.
Turns out is actually 2-butoxyethanol with surfactants. Highly annoying. Then don't put a large label with "ACETON" on the bottle for f... sake.
I'm willing to bet that if I a kid accidentally ingests it and the mother shows the bottle to the doctor he will treat the kid for acetone poisoning.
Incidentally, it is totally useless for removing photoresist from circuit boards, or anything else I tried with it that I normally use acetone for. A very poor substitute.

[Edited on 5-3-2016 by phlogiston]

Herr Haber - 5-3-2016 at 17:33

Wait.... acetone got banned also?
I thought it was only high concentration H202 that got banned.

woelen - 6-3-2016 at 11:10

The so-called acetone phlogiston bought is eco-acetone:

http://www.pearlpaint.nl/nl/merken-producten/eco-line/aceton...

This is an ecologically benign acetone-substitute and in the Netherlands it replaces true acetone. True acetone is not available anymore at most places. With good searching you may still find it, but nearly everywhere it is replaced by eco-acetone :( .

The same fate is in the make for ligroin (in the Netherlands: wasbenzine) and white spirit (Dutch: terpentine). I already found eco-wasbenzine and eco-terpentine in several hardware stores. The real stuff will disappear soon from the shelves.


[Edited on 7-3-16 by woelen]

Mabus - 6-3-2016 at 12:45

How can these people sell such products is beyond me.

BJ68 - 8-3-2016 at 21:47

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
The so-called acetone phlogiston bought is eco-acetone:
http://www.pearlpaint.nl/nl/merken-producten/eco-line/aceton...
This is an ecologically benign acetone-substitute and in the Netherlands it replaces true acetone. True acetone is not available anymore at most places.



Dear woelen,

can you check what composition they used for this acetone replacement?

Because I have doubts that it is a mixture of 2-butoxyethanol and surfactants which was mentioned from phlogiston.

According to GESTIS http://www.dguv.de/ifa/GESTIS/GESTIS-Stoffdatenbank/index-2.... 2-butoxyethanol has the toxic pictogram.
So I suppose the entry in the NL Wikipedia is wrong:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-butoxyethanol
If you look at the MSDS https://www.carlroth.com/downloads/sdb/nl/0/SDB_0341_NL_NL.p... you see the the same classification as in GESTIS.

If you look at this company PDF at page 5 http://www.pearlpaint.nl/nl/merken-producten/eco-line/aceton...
This product has no hazard symbol....

Bj68

[Edited on 9-3-2016 by BJ68]

woelen - 8-3-2016 at 23:51

This is the MSDS of the product:

https://www.hornbach.nl/data/shop/D04/001/780/495/167/83/872...

It indeed states that the product contains 2-butoxyethanol, less than 8%. I think that the rest will be water and a complicated mix of surfactants and maybe some odorants.

For chemistry purposes, this product is totally useless.

BJ68 - 9-3-2016 at 04:02

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
This is the MSDS of the product:

https://www.hornbach.nl/data/shop/D04/001/780/495/167/83/872...

It indeed states that the product contains 2-butoxyethanol, less than 8%. I think that the rest will be water and a complicated mix of surfactants and maybe some odorants.

For chemistry purposes, this product is totally useless.



Thanks for the Info....

I think water and a bit of dish washing agent, will have the same effect as that castrated acetone....and it´s not only as chemistry useless, as stripper of photo-resist you can forget it....

I am really shocked, if that is the way what the EU or better ECHA (European Chemicals Agency) with REACH will go...they take the last term of REACH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration,_Evaluation,_Auth... very serious.....will be interesting times in the future for people with interest in science, if the do it privately.....sorry I hate the nanny state....


Bj68

woelen - 9-3-2016 at 04:27

In the Netherlands this process of neutering or replacing all kinds of chemicals already has proceeded quite far. In the average hardware store you hardly can find anything useful anymore:
- acetone, ligroin, and white spirit replaced by "castrated" eco-variants;
- hydrochloric acid replaced by specialty products, like concrete cleaner with pleasant citrus smell (brand HG);
- eco-friendly drain cleaner (also brand HG) which must be poured in the drain, and allowed to do its work for half a day or so;
- lamp oil is replaced by a thick gel, branded as completely natural and biodegradable (some organic stuff, soaked with some alcohol);
- ammonia without smell and made much more viscous so that it does its cleaning action for a longer time. Probably this does not contain real ammonia.
Sulphuric acid has completely disappeared from the shelves, NaOH becomes harder to find.
You can still get nearly all chemicals in the Netherlands (except nitric acid and conc. hydrogen peroxide), but only in specialized online shops like Labstuff or Hinmeijer. I hardly buy anything locally anymore, simply because it disappeared. Especially the last two years, interesting things are disappearing very quickly.

careysub - 9-3-2016 at 06:45

The "war on chemistry" has yet to reach these extremes in the U.S. but the fact that it does go on here as well, and the experience with the EU has prompted me to work up a list of every chemical I thing I would ever be interested in owning/using and to buy it now (or else work how I plan to make it, and make sure I have the necessary reagents for that).

I have a pretty good inventory at this point, my remaining list is fairly short and features rather specialized compounds.

The U.S. does not generally follow the EU in everything, but I have no confidence that won't in this, sooner or later.

woelen - 9-3-2016 at 14:15

Another strategy is dilution:
- 1985: 25% ammonia in supermarkets and hardware stores
- 1995: 15% ammonia
- 2000: 12% ammonia
- 2010: 5% ammonia
- 2016: ammonia being replaced by odourless "ammonia"


- 1985: 12.5% NaOCl
- 1995: 10% NaOCl
- 2005: 5% NaOCl
- 2010: 4% NaOCl
- 2016: specialized products, like ceiling cleaner, chlorine-free toilet cleaners. 4% NaOCl still available, but more and more alternatives appear.

A similar thing is true for acetic acid. In 1985 or so I purchased 80% acetic acid as "vinegar essence". Nowadays the best I can find OTC is 8% acetic acid for cleaning purposes, for higher concentrations you need to go to chemical suppliers or specialized online shops.

likmevessie - 9-3-2016 at 16:35

85% "vinegar essence" is still for sale in holland, look for it in toko's (indonesian food shop), or other asian supermarkets.

what's really outrageous i think is the sale in certain diy-chainstores of a certain product (i think the actual ingredient list specifies it to be isobutylalcohol among some other crap) as "aceton", while it doesnt contain a single drop of the stuff, and yet, it is the name of the product, and as such, written in big letters on the bottle. - oops, this allready was being discussed :), anyway, how the fuck can this be legal? if u ask me, this doesnt differ in any way from sell for example margarine as butter, or water with emulsifier and margarine as pure margarine, or just water and emulsifier and a drop of vegetable oil as anything other then "lekker op brood" (a actual product for sale in dutch supermarkets, the packaging looks exactly similar to that of butter, margarine and halvarine" )

o, and btw, kruidvat still carries nice naoh pearls at 2euros/500

[Edited on 10-3-2016 by likmevessie]

[Edited on 10-3-2016 by likmevessie]

Mailinmypocket - 9-3-2016 at 19:42

Like you said, is there not some sort of labelling or advertising law that prevents something being clearly labelled as something it is not? Does it literally say "Acetone" and not something like "Acetone Substitute" etc, similar to what they do with MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) substitute?

Similar things are happening here in the big chain stores though. Floor strippers so tame you could drink them and solvents that extinguish fires.

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