Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Peroxodicarbonates

Adas - 8-2-2013 at 07:37

Hello guys!

A long time ago, I've been reading about PDCs on Wikipedia. They seem as interesting, "green" oxidants. IIRC, they are prepared by very low-temperature electrolysis of carbonate solutions.

Have anyone got any experiences with them? I think it would be difficult to make them in amateur setting because of the low temperature. Let's discuss this. Every information is welcome.

Metacelsus - 8-2-2013 at 10:25

-20 C (the temperature of the electrolysis) is quite easy to reach in a freezer. Why not just put the cell in there? Potassium carbonate is relatively nontoxic.

Adas - 8-2-2013 at 10:54

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese  
Why not just put the cell in there?


Eh, and where would the transformer be connected? :D I assume that one does not want to play with f**king 9V batteries.

Do you know anything about its stability? Is it stable at room temp?

AndersHoveland - 9-2-2013 at 23:20

Quote: Originally posted by Adas  
Eh, and where would the transformer be connected?

It is a bit unsafe, but you could use two strips of aluminum foil, going into the refrigeration unit while the door is closed.

Or you could chill the solution before the electrolysis. With potassium carbonate dissolved in the solution, it should be able to remain unfrozen at -15C.

I doubt the solution is going to heat up all that much during 10 minutes of electrolysis.

franklyn - 10-2-2013 at 18:12

Due to the much higher density relative to liquid oxygen , compounds with
nitrocarbon functional groups such as trinitromethane contain more oxygen
by volume than liquid oxygen ! Exceeding the Oxygen Content of Liquid Oxygen
Attachment: Exceeding O2 content of LOX.pdf (170kB)
This file has been downloaded 523 times
Substituting the carbonate functional group of bis(2,2,2-trinitroethyl)carbonate
with peroxycarbonate will increase the available oxygen even more.
This would make a powerful aluminized explosive in the ratio of 2 to 1 of Al.
{-CH2(NO2)3}2:C2O6 + 8 Al => 4 Al2O3 + 6 CO + 3 N2 + 2 H2

bis(2,2,2-trinitroethyl)peroxodicarbonate.gif - 4kB

Adas - 11-2-2013 at 08:49

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn  
Due to the much higher density relative to liquid oxygen , compounds with
nitrocarbon functional groups such as trinitromethane contain more oxygen
by volume than liquid oxygen ! Exceeding the Oxygen Content of Liquid Oxygen

Substituting the carbonate functional group of bis(2,2,2-trinitroethyl)carbonate
with peroxycarbonate will increase the available oxygen even more.
This would make a powerful aluminized explosive in the ratio of 2 to 1 of Al.
{-CH2(NO2)3}2:C2O6 + 8 Al => 4 Al2O3 + 6 CO + 3 N2 + 2 H2



Eh, I thought we were discussing a synth that can be done in an amateur setting, and not a dangerous complex organic synth. :P

This was meant to be more of a practical topic, since many people here could possibly perform the experiment.

Not so fast

franklyn - 11-2-2013 at 22:51

For the HEDO-nists among us

Perchlorate and Halogen-Free High Energy Dense Oxidizers (HEDO)
www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a546826.pdf

Some patent literature relating to organic Peroxydicarbonates

US3377373 - Process for the Continuous Manufacture of Peroxydicarbonates *
US4359427 - Process for producing Peroxydicarbonates
US6258906 - Process for Manufacture of a Solution of Dialkyl Peroxydicarbonate
US6433208 - Method for Producing _ *
US7763690 - Method for Producing Peroxydicarbonates and _


[Edited on 12-2-2013 by franklyn]

AndersHoveland - 14-2-2013 at 00:14

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn  
bis(2,2,2-trinitroethyl)carbonate

If I remember correctly, BTNEC was investigated as a potential energetic plasticizer. It had thermal stability problems because of the trinitromethyl moiety. (poor thermal stability typically means it is less stable in long-term storage and gradually degrades, in some cases dangerously)

The precursor, 2,2,2-trinitroethanol is made by condensing trinitromethane with formaldehyde in the presence of a base. 2,2,2-trinitroethanol is highly toxic, volatile, and can be absorbed through the skin.
( = extremely hazardous)

[Edited on 14-2-2013 by AndersHoveland]