Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Sigma-Aldrich

killswitch - 26-5-2013 at 08:08

The vast majority of energetics don't require access to Sigma-Aldrich's catalog to synthesize. But most of those are almost a century old.

I went to the trouble of forming an LLC, and I may be using it for business purposes in the near future. Right now, though, I need it to get Sigma to even give me a second look.

Their website is aggravatingly designed (it wipes its own cookies at short intervals, erasing your cart and/or all your progress on their registration form), but I can deal with that.

What I want to know is how strict their standards of scrutiny are. They ask for a description of your lab and warehouse facilities. My lab isn't all that impressive, but at least I have one. But warehousing? Is 'overhead cabinet' going to cut it?

I ask all this because I am in desperate need of 4,6-dihydroxy-2-methyl-pyrimidine, glyoxal, pyridinium chlorochromate/dichromate, 2-methylimidazole, lithium aluminum hydride, THF, DMF, DMSO, PBr3, pyridine, guanidine, potassium tert-butoxide, lithium diisopropylamide, sodium azide, etc. Not merely for energetics, but also for just about any damned chemistry that's even remotely interesting.

I'm pretty sure LiAlH4, PCC/PDC, LDA, t-BuOK, 2-methyl imidazole, and 4,6-dihydroxy 2-methyl pyrimidine are not available from anywhere other than a chemical supplier like Aldrich.

Do they actually have a guy come around and inspect your facilities? Do they automatically turn down orders made with a personal bank account, even if from the owner of the business? (I know it's good practice to separate your assets from the company, but since I'm not in business yet I'm not worried about being sued).

Alternately, are there any other companies that are easier to order from that sell these things? Or an OTC source for some of the above?

Bot0nist - 26-5-2013 at 14:55

LAH is at elemental scientific .net

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 27-5-2013 at 09:16

Sigma Aldrich is sooo expensive !!!! 1 grams of LBH for 45 Euro, are you kidding me !!!

killswitch - 28-5-2013 at 21:31

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  
Sigma Aldrich is sooo expensive !!!! 1 grams of LBH for 45 Euro, are you kidding me !!!


Does Alfa-Aesar have better pricing?

Ral123 - 28-5-2013 at 21:59

It's not like you guys will make anything special with all these exotics. So far military energetics can't exceed EGDN in energy density. Only PETN or CL20 would do that, pressed at maximum theoretical density.

killswitch - 28-5-2013 at 23:10

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
It's not like you guys will make anything special with all these exotics. So far military energetics can't exceed EGDN in energy density. Only PETN or CL20 would do that, pressed at maximum theoretical density.


Not sure what this has to do with anything we've posted...

But you must know energy density isn't the only key property of an explosive.

For example, you flat-out forgot to mention octanitrocubane, which thermodynamic calculations predict will exceed both of your examples under those same conditions, but presents practical difficulties in attaining said conditions reliably, thus research is ongoing.

Detonation velocity, bulk material properties, compatibility with other substances, resistance to environmental degradation, shock, heat, and friction sensitivity, brisance, decomposition products, energy efficiency of synthesis, difficulty of synthesis, level of environmental toxicity, and dozens of other factors can all push one energetic over another, even if one looks to give a bigger bang on paper.

It's almost like you're telling science to pack up and go home because everything has been invented already.

Of course, I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. Just relaying an impression.

[Edited on 29-5-2013 by killswitch]

Ral123 - 29-5-2013 at 00:23

I'm saying that the over 100 years old RDX is an excellent secondary with very difficult to surpass brisanse. And yet, for most of us it's exotic. Now you guys are considering to go into most recent military exotics and beyond I guess. When will there be a decent RDX test(not rednecks with C4, 500 yards away) in youtube, so we can even begin to talk about the more fancy stuff.

APO - 29-5-2013 at 08:00

I spoke to Ben Krasnow on YouTube, and he got Tetramethylorthosilicate from Sigma-Aldrich through so called "tricky means" and he pretty much said that you just need to have a "business" order it for you.

[Edited on 29-5-2013 by APO]

killswitch - 29-5-2013 at 08:15

There's videos of things like nickel(II) hydrazine nitrate, tetrammine copper(II) persulfate, and ethylenediamine silver(I) bromate up on youtube if you know where to look.

Besides, videos of explosions all look pretty much the same [except metal salts, which have occasional flashes of color], and without the ability of computer speakers to transmit impulse noise it's never really the same on video.

I remember a video of a demolition crew disposing of 5L of NG, and the description and comments were one long argument over whether he'd oversold it or if we all needed better speakers.

Besides, this forum isn't really about seeking YouTube fame. At least in the beginning it was about interesting and novel energetics, and there are still traces of it here and there from some of the senior posters with industry ties or access to lab supplies.

Really, all you need to make RDX is anhydrous WFNA. A proper vacuum distillation setup is all you need for that.

Alternately, just distill without vacuum, then sparge like crazy with dry nitrogen or CO2 until the red color is gone.

It's my theory that anhydrous hydrogen peroxide could also clean up red fuming nitric acid. ONO. + .OH = HONO2.

I've also heard using hexamine dinitrate instead of straight hexamine, as well as dissolving ammonium nitrate in the nitric acid beforehand can increase yield. Don't quote me on that, though.

Honestly, I'd be more interested in nitroso-RDX as a stabilizer for long-term storage of nitric esters.

[Edited on 29-5-2013 by killswitch]

killswitch - 29-5-2013 at 08:30

Quote: Originally posted by APO  
I spoke to Ben Krasnow on YouTube, and he got Tetramethylorthosilicate from Sigma-Aldrich through so called "tricky means" and he pretty much said that you just need to have a business order it for you.


I own a business. Though for the moment I guess you should put "business" in quotes, since I have no employees or revenue at the moment and less than $10,000 in capital contributions.

APO - 29-5-2013 at 08:34

Done.

Bot0nist - 29-5-2013 at 08:50

Stop with the one liner posts please, APO. in this and the NH3 evolution thread. This isnt facebook. just what till you have something to contribute.

As far as the big chem companies... Many have learned to get by without them, and it has benifited amatuer chemistry. Just look at some of garage chemists innovations... Sure, a Sigma account would be great for some hard to get, impossible to make reagents, but for most needs, we can improvise. Thats have the fun and challenge. ;)

killswitch - 29-5-2013 at 09:32

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  


As far as the big chem companies... Many have learned to get by without them, and it has benifited amatuer chemistry. Just look at some of garage chemists innovations... Sure, a Sigma account would be great for some hard to get, impossible to make reagents, but for most needs, we can improvise. Thats have the fun and challenge. ;)


So, about that 4,6-dihydroxy 2-methyl pyrimidine... or 2-methyl imidazole... or pyridinium dichromate (the straight stuff, not the Cornforth reagent)

[Edited on 29-5-2013 by killswitch]

killswitch - 29-5-2013 at 09:35

Quote: Originally posted by APO  
Done.


What? What's been done?


WHAT HAVE YOU DONE APO??!!!

Edit: Oh wait, you literally put business in quotes in your post? :P I was actually referring to my "business."

[Edited on 29-5-2013 by killswitch]

killswitch - 29-5-2013 at 09:39

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
LAH is at elementalscientific.net


Well I'll be damned. Thank you.




Edit: Wait, why the hell don't they stock any ethers besides MTBE? MTBE can't even do Grignards, so I'll eat my hat if it can do LiAlH4 reductions.

Edit 2: How do they carry butanol but not tert-butanol?

[Edited on 29-5-2013 by killswitch]

DieForelle - 29-5-2013 at 22:52

I think at the very least someone like Sigma is going to make sure you have a listing in Dun & Bradstreet, have a state business license, and that your address is in the UPS database as a commercial/business address. (UPS will happily tell you this if you call them...assuming you actually manage to speak to the right department. It's usually pretty obvious. Are you zoned residential or commercial?) Somewhere out there you could actually download the new customer application for one of the minor players, I think it was GFS chemicals, and that was what they asked for. That's at the very _least_. Because Sigma doesn't have a reseller network, as such, I think they tend to me a little more paranoid about where their product goes. No easy way to wash their hands of bad news. The other lab supply brands (spectrum, Fisher, et al) are easier to get stuff from, if you know where to look and are reasonable about it. (i.e., don't order DEA watch list items)
Hey speaking of energetic - the effect of mixing sodium chlorate and terephthalic acid in a freight derailment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oYBta46H-g
although I don't think they mixed all at the same time, or the explosion would have been even bigger. As it was it could be heard across the Chesapeake Bay, over 10 miles away.

zed - 4-6-2013 at 14:56

Sigma-Aldrich has been discussed many times here at ScienceMadness.

It is easier to order their products through a third party.

Personally, I used to order their stuff through Daiggers. I don't know if that is an option anymore.

Otherwise, I used to order through my University.

The_Davster - 4-6-2013 at 16:25

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
It's not like you guys will make anything special with all these exotics.

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
When will there be a decent RDX test(not rednecks with C4, 500 yards away) in youtube, so we can even begin to talk about the more fancy stuff.


Some of us have made CL20...Fox 7....LAX112....LLM105

Just do not think youtube is the appropriate place for such things....



[Edited on 5-6-13 by The_Davster]

NiCoLi_BrLiNTe - 20-6-2013 at 02:22

Zed (or anyone else who can answer this) when you say you've ordered through your uni, what exactly was it you used to order? If you don't mind me asking. Just I volunteer as an assistant lab tech at uni and they've let me order things, such as agarose and T4 phage. However, I'm trying to gauge the reaction if I asked for something like BBr3.

prof_genius - 30-11-2013 at 12:17

If you live in europe/ Poland you can find sigma distributors like HurtChem.pl. Some sell to individuals and some don't, you just have to find the one right for your needs.

Cheap bulk quantity purchasing.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 2-12-2013 at 04:39



If I buy 20kg of anhydrous 5-amino-1,2,3,4tetrazole (5ATZ), the price would be around 20-30 dollars per 500 grams which is so much cheaper than Sigma Aldrich who sell 300+ Euro per 500 grams.

5ATZ is a important starting material for other tetrazole compounds. Any one interested ?

prof_genius - 3-3-2014 at 01:21

I recommend merck in Poland, their products are so much cheaper than sigma or merck in other countries.