Sciencemadness Discussion Board - crabgrass and snake grass

crabgrass and snake grass

Magpie - 1-7-2013 at 10:42

After years of ignoring these two weeds I am conducting the recommended chemical warfare. My no. 2 son is getting married in August and I need to spiff up my lawn.

My local agricultural extension agent recommended dithiopyr as a pre-emergent herbicide for crabgrass. So I put this down in granule form a couple months ago.

dithiopyr:

dithiopyr.png - 10kB

To wage war on the snake grass today I'm following the advice of landscapers and wiping the stems in triclopyr:

triclopyr.png - 6kB

Along the way I have noticed that although the snake grass is coming up prolifically in my garden there is none in my lawn for the first time in years. I'm now wondering if the crabgrass killer is also killing the snake grass. If so, the granule dithiopyr may be easier and safer to apply at the base of the stems of the snake grass than wiping with triclopyr.

Is anyone else plagued by these buggers? Any success stories out there? What are your recommendations.

(I'm also battling ants, but that's another story.)

bfesser - 1-7-2013 at 13:01

<strong>Magpie</strong>, you of all people should know better! Lawns, monoculture, and suburbia are all concepts idealized in the diseased hive-mind currently existing in the US. (Not that other cultures aren't guilty of such things, but they're also fucking retarded!) As for the chemistry, cool structures, but not something I appreciate you dumping into the environment. Thanks for putting these chemicals into the water we drink, the air we breathe, and the soil our food grows in. Do me a favor and keep your chemicals in the lab, where they belong! Oh, and I almost forgot my recommendation: <em>Stop pursuing monoculture!</em> Nature abhors a monoculture just as she abhors a vacuum. Or use a Flammenwerfer...

(No, I'm not a lousy ignorant hippie. But I'd appreciate it if you'd kindly refrain from spreading chlorinated/fluorinated aromatic heterocycles hither, thither, and yon.)

<a href="http://emtoast.com/?p=836" target="_blank"><img src="http://emtoast.com/wp-content/uploads/flame-thrower-thumb.jpg" /></a>

P.S. It works on ants, too!

[Edited on 7/1/13 by bfesser]

Magpie - 1-7-2013 at 14:35

Guilty as charged.

I actually hate doing this. That is why I have put up with crabgrass, dandelions, and other weeds for 35 years without using herbicides while all my neighbors were using 2,4 D every year in their weed & feed fertilizers. I've always felt that this is especially bad practice when one has dogs and kids playing on the lawn. But I feel that this year I have to clean things up for my son's wedding.

I put up with odiferous house ants in my house for 2 years. I found them on my neck when in bed and when watching TV in my family room. I refused to use pesticides in my house, except boric acid, or the little roach motels. Neither worked very well. Last summer they mysteriously disappeared. My theory is that some bigger ants moved in and forced them out (biological control). The bigger ants weren't so persistent and finally moved out also. This year I am having my kitchen rebuilt and had a chance to seal the walls to the subfloor with caulk and to caulk the plumbing penetrations. So I have great hopes that they won't come back. I'm also going after them more agressively around my house on the outside.

S.C. Wack - 1-7-2013 at 14:46

It's interesting this comes up today; yesterday it became illegal to sell MSMA (except for cotton), the last remaining of the weed-killing arsenicals used until a few years ago. It becomes illegal to use at the end of the year. Except in agriculture. So 99% of the users are shut out, while 99% of the use remains. Thanks EPA.

For some reason, the weeds are out like never before, especially crabgrass and nutsedge. Odd coincidence.

I suspect bfesser does not have a lawn, and note no proposed alternative other than fire. Really, monoculture is for the best, in areas with sun and rain. And there's city codes and homeowner's associations.

bfesser - 1-7-2013 at 15:03

No, I do not have a lawn. And it seems to me, that you're just making excuses for your own apathy. There are countless alternatives. Rock gardens, water gardens, native wildflowers, etc. As for city codes, you can always fight them or work to have them changed. And you must choose to buy into a neighborhood with homeowner's associations. You'd be delusional if you thought that everyone should and could live as you do (suburban/rural house, yard/lawn, automobiles/recreational vehicles, etc.).

But why should I be the one to propose alternatives? I'm not the one causing the problems—chiefly pollution! Regardless, <a href="http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lawn+alternative&l=1" target="_blank">here</a> are some ideas.

[edit to fix typo]

[Edited on 7/1/13 by bfesser]

S.C. Wack - 1-7-2013 at 17:54

Rocks? No thanks.

My first interest in my brand new awesome 70's chemistry set was making something that would kill the fucking crabgrass, dandelions, and thistles I had to pull. I made "some evil shit" and they used it as fertilizer.

Have you ever had to deal with yellow nutsedge? The only (what passes for) effective products are expensive and are ironically not sold locally. I did look into the synthesis, which would be even more polluting. I bought Phalaris and such grasses from the store, and clover and vetch seed online fyi. Yeah I can't put down any weed control with any of those plants. My house hasn't been in the suburbs since the 1920's. Grassy lawns came way before suburbia, due to practical realities imho.

So anyways, if you've got some arsenic you can make a very effective herbicide particularly for crabgrass (and one of few options for nutsedge). And put arsenic into the soil. Yep.

bfesser - 1-7-2013 at 19:54

Grassy <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawn#History" target="_blanks">lawns</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /> did come before suburbia, but due to aesthetics and vanity (as a show of wealth) rather than "practical realities".

As for arsenic, just keep in mind where that arsenic will go…

<img src="http://www.aglobalvillage.org/site/assets/files/1205/arsenic2.jpg" />

[Edited on 7/9/13 by bfesser]

Endimion17 - 2-7-2013 at 08:00

I can confirm - lawns are not a natural phenomenon. The closest thing to a lawn in nature would be a field after it's been grazed by wild animals, but that's far from the Windows XP's Bliss wallpaper.

If one wants a piece of nice land, why not combining grass with other cultures? You can plant a row of vegetables, row of flowers (provided that the plants don't poison each other), a bush here and there, with grassy/stony paths.
You want to choose low maintenance plants, otherwise you're in a speed track for more frustration.

Don't make a stone/block/concrete surface. Not only it looks stupid and barren, it also creates a shelter for rodents. Ten square metres of concrete blocks means a new roof for few families of rats, mouses, voles.

If you really must use herbicides, use the ones that degrade quickly. Alternatively, use plants that inhibit the weed growth.

Flamethrower is not a bad idea, provided that you don't live in a nanny state where such activity would be illegal. Burning the weed down returns potassium and sulphates to the ground.

[Edited on 2-7-2013 by Endimion17]

Random - 2-7-2013 at 10:17

Quote: Originally posted by bfesser

Or use a Flammenwerfer...

Or napalm. That should do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OnOvrTugiA

[Edited on 2-7-2013 by Random]

SM2 - 2-7-2013 at 10:52

Don't make the mistake of over poisoning insects on lawn BTW, you'll drive them into your HOUSE! Flame thrower looks kewl. Is it just for forest fire fighters, or can you order one. PMJB plans? Expensive? U-T-f_S_E I know. just LAZZY.

bfesser - 2-7-2013 at 12:47

Lazzy? That's the collie that threw poor young Timmy into the well, is it not? In case you couldn't tell, the photograph I posted of a Flammenwerfer was a 'shoop' ('<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoshopping#Photoshopping" target="_blank">Photoshop</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />') borrowed from some random website (the image links to the original source). I have no idea what "PMJB" means. I assume that "BTW" is a <a href=-"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang" target="_blank">translexical phonological abbreviation</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /> for "by the way."

[Edited on 7/9/13 by bfesser]

phlogiston - 2-7-2013 at 14:40

No advice on the crab- and snake grass, neither grows where I live.

However, your questions made me read more about the chemistry of herbicides and I am shocked at the kind of stuff that was used.

Lead arsenate was allowed for use on fruit untill the late 80's!
I image the soil of old orchards could still be quite badly contaminated actually.
Farmers used to make it at home from sodium arsenate and soluble lead salts.... Many of us on this forum stay away from these kinds of compounds even if they are equipped for experimenting with it.

And the lead arsenate was actually considered a LESS toxic replacement for the popular copper(II) acetate triarsenite (which I have used myself in the past for creating blue flames in pyrotechnic compositions. It was still available 15-20 years ago).

[Edited on 2-7-2013 by phlogiston]

Random - 2-7-2013 at 15:35

Quote: Originally posted by SM2

Don't make the mistake of over poisoning insects on lawn BTW, you'll drive them into your HOUSE! Flame thrower looks kewl. Is it just for forest fire fighters, or can you order one. PMJB plans? Expensive? U-T-f_S_E I know. just LAZZY.

Your recent posts don't make any sense.

violet sin - 2-7-2013 at 17:56

that ones not too hard to crack man...
and he's right. you take away their(bugs) chill spot they will at least come under the house if not in. awesome in my neighborhood when a neighbor sprays for insects, and all that are left jump ship with half dying on our property. happens quite often, mostly just feild cockroaches though. they don't even WANT to go inside. if all that isn't bad enough we have an exterminator that lives across the street. one who had my gramma( now deceased) have the house sprayed monthly for years. and my mother followed suit b/c thats what gramma did. wasn't even killing the black widows so I said STOP IT! we haven't had them spray for bout a year now and NO bug problems at all.. what a racket feeding on peoples fears.

I just heard on the radio 2 maybe 3 days ago, that (Chinese?) scientist had discovered that crab grass roots emit a chem that stifles the growth of other plants. I hate the stuff my self and it is ALL up in my yard. I just pull the crap out. bout time to redo the lawn any way for more efficient sprinklers. we have been replacing the large flat lawn with flowers that can actually be used for something( not pot ). my mother asked me to get something to control the broad leaf weeds and I regrettably got some herbicide. didn't work and I refuse to use it any more. kinda sprayed it lightly anyhow. we still have a whole bunch of the old chem killers from my grandmother, waiting for an amnesty day to drop off properly. nasty stuff.

long story short, crabgrass = big pain in the ass but not nearly as bad as gorse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorse

they have been trying desperatly to kill in in the area I work for many many years. at least they realized the futility in chems and just have a bunch of workers on foot and a few with tractors haul it to a burn pit. really freakin cool to watch that go down. contracted company uses forced air fire on green plants in a pit the size of semi truck trailer.
-violet sin-

bfesser - 3-7-2013 at 07:02

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston

Lead arsenate was allowed for use on fruit untill the late 80's!
I image the soil of old orchards could still be quite badly contaminated actually.

I recently picked up a <a href="http://books.google.com/books/about/Mushrooms_of_Northeast_North_America.html?id=wTEsHAAACAAJ" target="_blank">field guide on mushrooms</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" /> which advised against collecting edible mushrooms in old orchards for this very reason. Of course, now that I mention it, I can't seem to find the exact quote in the book.

[edit]
My memory failed me. That wasn't in the book, I apparently read it in the Wikipedia article on Morchella:<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morchella#Toxicity" target="_blank">

Quote:

Morels growing in old apple orchards that had been treated with the insecticide lead arsenate may accumulate levels of toxic lead and arsenic that are unhealthy for human consumption. <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />

</a>
Still, I really like the book.

[Edited on 7/9/13 by bfesser]

Fantasma4500 - 4-7-2013 at 10:47

if you could somehow manage to create a solution of NH4NO2 that should work as its somewhat toxic and decomposes easily into nitrogen and water

otherwise NaClO3 is still being used to kill plants and what not in belgium (france also..?)
it doesnt do any harm to the groundwater

but if we were to use napalm, i dont see the reason NOT to dig down a massive spool of det. cord (yes that would be a long piece no matter how small your garden is)
say 10 cm down the ground and you wouldnt have problems for at least a month? (:
ofcourse releasing the energy would help abit on the whole process

unionised - 4-7-2013 at 12:21

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoe_(tool)