Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Lead styphnate vs AP, TATP, HMTD

aldofad - 5-7-2013 at 02:49

Hi all,
I got a simple question.
Why does most of the people involved in using primary explosives loses much time laboriously preparing AP/TATP /HMTD instead of easily getting lead styphnate from cartridge's primers?

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 5-7-2013 at 02:53

lead is toxic ? btw that compound is kind of instable

[Edited on 5-7-2013 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

Ral123 - 5-7-2013 at 03:35

Such idea can only be given by a guy who has no clue. The AP will initiate reliably almost any secondary, when allowed to detonate down a thick walled tube, with the secondary at the bottom. You'll have to bust a lot of caps and build a solid container with styphnate/secondary to be able to initiate anything.

aldofad - 5-7-2013 at 05:09

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_explosive_detonation_velocities
Lead styphnate's speed is 5,200 m/s
Acetone peroxide's/AP/TATP speed is 5,300 m/s

Lead styphnate is so widely used in primers directly in contact with metal provoking no spontaneus reactions. Acetone peroxide's/AP/TATP cannot be in touch with any metal.
Lead styphnate is a realiable factory product with quality certification, Lead Acetone peroxide's/AP/TATP is home made.

Opening a large rifle magnum primer to extract lead styphnate just take 10 seconds.
The are no restrictions buying large rifle magnum primer

Looks like you are wrong

Ral123 - 5-7-2013 at 05:20

Well I guess I am wrong. I'm sure they try to use the most efficient primaries in these caps. After all who doesn't want a nice good detonation of the double base(NG/NC) powder in his weapon :D

dangerous amateur - 5-7-2013 at 10:10

Because

-its most likely mixed into some pyrotechnical composition and not pure. Also the amount of styphnate per round will be very low.

-it's extremely sensitive to static, and static is something that is hard to control for hobbyists

If you have problems getting raw materials rather get some old airbags and try to get azide that way.

chemcam - 5-7-2013 at 11:15

The m/s is not the only factor that makes a good primary, you have to take into account brisance, sensitivity, stability, cost, time to make and others as well. Opening up hundreds of primers to accumulate weight will take a lot more time than synthesizing the other primaries you suggest. To me It doesn't really matter that it is unaffected by metal because amateur's shouldn't have it in a metal case anyway, shrapnel I avoid.

Comparing lead styphnate to organic peroxides would obviously make it seem like a better choice on paper because lead styphnate is a completely different beast. Start comparing it to other primaries used by the industry and you will find Mercury fulminate, lead azide and silver acetylide are great initiating compounds and much safer (besides Hg vapor) than peroxides, even cheaper than the bullet primers too. Basically, compare any primary to an organic peroxide and it will seem much better because they have such a bad reputation.

Somebody posted above extract the sodium azide from an airbag to make lead azide, that's definitely going to be better than opening up the bullet primers and quite a lot is in each airbag. I have never done it but I have looked into it.

golfpro - 5-7-2013 at 12:28

Cam, it is true there are accidents w/ peroxides, my uncle is a professional blaster and he has never even heard of AP, HMTD etc.. Do you think it may have to do with how easy they are to make and thus many people make it or is it really true that .5 grams HMTD is 25x more likely to accidentily det. than .5 grams Lead Azide under the EXACT same conditions, if that's not the wording, then think of it this way, would the HMTD accidently go off considerably more often than the Lead Azide if 100 caps were made the exact same way, but 50 were LA, 50 HMTD, I would think the LA wouldn't ever go off accidently in a trial like that, but I would be interested to see how the HMTD would do, by the way, this is from the time the material is made to some time after the cap is finished..

Think of how many people make HMTD and AP caps to detonate whatever, whether it is .05 grams - 2 grams pressed into a straw

The_Davster - 5-7-2013 at 12:34

Lead styphnate is a shitty primary. It is a useful primer as its detonation is so shitty that it will merely ignite propellant and not cause detonation. Take a look in Federoff, I think it takes over 1g of styphnate to initiate TNT (compared to tens of milligrams for lead azide or a good primary)

det velocity means almost nothing for primaries. Look at silver fulminate, it is around 1700 ms-1, however something like 1-2mg will initiate tetryl. What matters is the DDT run time. Look for plate streak studies. Quality primaries like silver azide, fulminate, nitrotetrazolate all show essentially 0 time before deflagration turns to detonation. Styphnates take extended amounts of time, and this is manifested in large masses for initiation.

(above masses for initiation are from memory and may be off, however the magnitudes for comparison are correct)

The fact that you have AP/TATP/HMTD in such a way in the title tells me you have no idea what you are doing yet. AP and TATP are the same compound, and certainly not difficult to make.

However, unlike chemcam, I will advise against lead azide. If crystallization is not controlled properly, it can spontaneously detonate. TATP is actually safer for synthesis (but not for any storage). and is certainly safer than scraping styphnate out of primers .

papaya - 5-7-2013 at 12:45

Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster  

Lead styphnate is a shitty primary.
...
det velocity means almost nothing for primaries.
...
What matters is the DDT run time. Look for plate streak studies. Quality primaries like silver azide, fulminate, nitrotetrazolate all show essentially 0 time before deflagration turns to detonation. Styphnates take extended amounts of time, and this is manifested in large masses for initiation.

Well does this mean that it can be a good booster charge or even that if a very little LA is admixed to it (to shorten DDT run time) it'll turn into an excellent primary?

The_Davster - 5-7-2013 at 15:53

Quote: Originally posted by papaya  

[/rquote]
Well does this mean that it can be a good booster charge or even that if a very little LA is admixed to it (to shorten DDT run time) it'll turn into an excellent primary?


Absolutely not a good booster! A good booster will overdrive the secondary by a large amount. what is 5000ms-1 going to overdrive? Not to mention the whole sensitivity issue of using a primary on booster scales....

Styphnate or picrates can be crystallized with azide giving a clathrate type compound as described on this board. Patented for use in primaries. But not just mixed. Then you get the worst of both worlds, the ESD sensy of styphnate and the impact and friction sensy of azide.

Trotsky - 5-7-2013 at 19:02

Just wanted to correct a false statement. Acetone peroxide is not incompatible with metals. That is a problem solely for HMTD.

Motherload - 5-7-2013 at 21:11

Lead Styphanate in pure form is a decent primary and is by far more stable than any of the peroxides.
I'd rather use a gram of PbSty over a half gram of peroxide. They would probably take up the same amount of room. If I make a cap and don't end up using it for a week .... I won't be as high at risk as with peroxide..
Cartridge primers are designed to produce a flame..
If you check MSDS .... Federal primers only have 8-15% styphnate and few percent azide.. It has tetracene, antimony sulphides, lead nitrate etc in large proportion.
It probably is very similar for Winchester and CCI primers.

I have tested caps with primer powder and it won't even detonate ETN.
I am hopefully going to make PbAzide soon.

Always remember .... There is no safe primary/explosive .... Just safer ones than others.

@ Davster
I was unaware that straight primary could detonate TNT ....
If this is true .... I could detonate it without a booster.

@ Dangerous Amature
"-it's extremely sensitive to static, and static is something that is hard to control for hobbyists"
Are you implying that peroxides are less static sensitive ?

[Edited on 6-7-2013 by Motherload]

[Edited on 6-7-2013 by Motherload]

aldofad - 6-7-2013 at 07:41

Today I've spent 45 minutes to extract 1.2 grams of lead styphnate from 40 primers of type large rifle magnum.
The primer can be quickly opened using a small pin, after I put a single drop of acetone to grasp off the powder more quickly.
I use goggles, anticut gloves and my feet are naked on the floor with no shoes to be well grounded

chemcam - 6-7-2013 at 08:52

How do you know all 1.2g is lead styphnate? I am pretty sure there are other compounds present in primers so you must have recrystallized it, what solvent(s) did you use?

Also, you should buy an Anti-Static Wrist Strap and keep your shoes on. You wouldn't walk into any manufacturing plant or lab and see bare feet. Also to release static you can touch the screw holding a plugin face plate as long as the plugin is properly grounded. At least that's what I was taught when I worked at an electronics plant.

Edit: Added link for wrist strap.

[Edited on 7-6-2013 by chemcam]

The_Davster - 6-7-2013 at 12:06

Quote: Originally posted by Motherload  

Are you implying that peroxides are less static sensitive ?



I believe that is true. Styphnates have some insane ESD values.


Yes, TNT can be detonated without a booster.

dangerous amateur - 6-7-2013 at 12:26
Quote:

@ Dangerous Amature "-it's extremely sensitive to static, and static is something that is hard to control for hobbyists" Are you implying that peroxides are less static sensitive ?


I don't know. There is hardly any data out there for the peroxides.
But for the lead styphnate there is, and it's the highest value of any stuff.
Quote:

tetracene

How does Tetracene work as initiator, it seems to be rather slow? But it's less sensitive than the lead salts.

Ral123 - 6-7-2013 at 12:37

Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster  
Quote: Originally posted by Motherload  

Are you implying that peroxides are less static sensitive ?



I believe that is true. Styphnates have some insane ESD values.


Yes, TNT can be detonated without a booster.

It's extremely dependent on the physical state. Cast TNT requires booster. Also it depends if the primary is in contact with the TNT or there are thick walls between them.
Do they use styphnates in bazooka detonators? I've heard of some piezo electric system.

Bot0nist - 6-7-2013 at 12:43

Its not and INITIATOR, its a firing primer, and is ment to reliably IGNITE propellants, not INITIATE ezxplosives.

The 2.1 grams you collected will not initiate an insensitive secondary, and maybe only MHN or ETN through DDT or heat shock, as it is not pure Pbsty but rather a mix designed to reliably spit fire into Propellants...

Ral123 - 6-7-2013 at 13:01

I'm pretty sure, if picrate/styphnate is allowed to detonate in thick walled iron tube, at the end it would develop it's maximum velocity and be able to initiate even ammonium picrate.

Fantasma4500 - 6-7-2013 at 15:11

you guys are aaaaall forgetting heatshocking ETN

Bot0nist - 6-7-2013 at 15:16

yeah, clathrates(sp) are great. and het shock NPED can work, but they are a bit bulky and unrelible, which can cause safety issues of there own.

caterpillar - 6-7-2013 at 22:07

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
Its not and INITIATOR, its a firing primer, and is ment to reliably IGNITE propellants, not INITIATE ezxplosives.

The 2.1 grams you collected will not initiate an insensitive secondary, and maybe only MHN or ETN through DDT or heat shock, as it is not pure Pbsty but rather a mix designed to reliably spit fire into Propellants...


That's true. I can add that extract primaries from cups is very bad idea. Lead stiphnate can be used as a primer, but in large quantities. Here is the link to russian book on primaries: pirochem.net/index.php?id1=3&category=chemvvisost&author=bagal-li&book=1975 . I think, numbers and formulas can be understood even by these who do not know language.