Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Organic carbon?

bonemachine - 28-10-2002 at 08:27

I was searching for strong reducers on the net and i read something about organic carbon wich is a powerfull reducing agent. Although i couldn't find any more info about that. Any body knows what it is, if it is hazardous and if it can be manufactured with any way?

thanks.

Polverone - 28-10-2002 at 12:00

To manufacture organic carbon you must take ordinary carbon and give it LIFE using one of the standard Mad Science methods (lightning, ionizing radiation, mysterious elixirs, etc.) as found in the Faustus-Tesla Encyclopedia of Things Man Was Never Meant to Know.

Seriously, though, carbon can be a powerful reducing agent, but it requires high temperatures to work. Very hot carbon can free even active metals like sodium and potassium from their compounds. This was in fact the basis of commercial Na/K production for many years before the arrival of affordable electrical power. I don't think any special form of carbon is going to change the high temperature requirements, unfortunately. Unless you have an easy way of reaching furnace-like temperatures, carbon is going to be pretty worthless as a reducing agent. And of course it's useless in making organic compounds, since organic compounds generally don't survive more than a few hundred degrees C.

bonemachine - 28-10-2002 at 12:12

hmm, so can someone tell me any strong reducers that can be made with not to much mess and no lab? The only ones i have made by now is sodium polysulfide and tin dicloride.

Polverone - 28-10-2002 at 12:39

Nascent hydrogen, formed in situ by the action of acids (hydrochloric and acetic are commonly used) on various transition metals (tin, zinc, iron, etc.) is a decent reducing agent for many reactions. Ascorbic acid, vitamin C, is (I believe) a fairly strong reducing agent, though to be honest I don't have any references regarding its laboratory use. Hydrogen sulfide is a good reducing agent, and easy to prepare, but also very toxic. Sodium polysulfide is a decent reducing agent but it tends to give up hydrogen sulfide, so it can be hazardous as well. Amalgamated active metals (zinc, aluminum, etc. with a small amount of mercury) make good reducing agents, but mercury and its salts may (depending on your situation) be difficult to get, and you need to take precautions in using and disposing of mercury and its compounds. Hydriodic acid is a good reducing agent, but it is illegal to possess in the US (I don't know where you're located), it is very corrosive, and its preparation involves either protracted labor (phosphoric acid + iodide), hydrogen sulfide (iodine + H2S), or elemental phosphorus (iodine + red phosphorus) (kudos to the Hive for teaching me practically everything I know about the preparation and use of HI as a reducing agent). There are many other fine reducing agents out there, but none of them that I can think of right now are easily prepared/procured without buying from a real chemical supplier or doing some fairly involved lab work.

Sometimes you get lucky and can use something that you wouldn't normally consider a useful reducing agent. I can think of just one example off the top of my head. I wanted some copper (I) oxide, Cu2O. I only had copper (II) compounds on hand. But then I remembered a common test for 'reducing' sugars: oxidation of the sugar by alkaline copper (II) salts to yield copper (I) oxide. So I dissolved some copper (II) sulfate in water, added fructose, made alkaline with NaOH, and was soon watching a lovely red powder precipitate. Plus the oxidation of the fructose made my room smell like a candy factory, which is always a bonus ;-)

interesting

bonemachine - 28-10-2002 at 14:09

I agree with all you say....

I just wana stik a litle bit with C2uO since you mentioned it. First i am looking for a way to make some with electrolysis or any other method. Second i wana ask if it could used with fuels such Sulfur to deflagrate. At least Al works with Cu2O but i don't know if the high ingnition point makes the deflagration so fast.

Polverone - 28-10-2002 at 14:39

Do you have access to copper (II) salts? As I said, it's not difficult to convert them to Cu2O. But Cu2O will not form a very energetically interesting mix with sulfur. You sound like you've done some chemical experimentation before, which is good. But you also sound like you could really use a good general chemistry textbook. I'll give the same advice to you as I have to others: visit thrift stores/used book stores until you find a reasonably modern (1975 or newer) general chemistry textbook written for university students. I've found a variety of thick, hardbound chemistry textbooks in local thrift stores, all for under $5.00 each. Books written for a pre-university audience won't have as much information and won't be substantially easier to learn from.

To that first general chemistry text, add organic, analytical, and physical chemistry books as the mood strikes you. A large general reference such as the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics or Lange's Handbook of Chemistry is also very valuable for looking up quick info like reduction potentials, freezing/boiling points, solubilities, etc. An excellent book on the practical aspects of organic chemistry is (surprise) Vogel's Practical Organic Chemistry, scanned by yours truly and available for download in DjVu format at http://www.rhodium.ws.

You can learn a lot from the web, but it's very inefficient compared to a good book. If you can't find any books that you can afford, let me know and I'll set you up with some more electronic books. Also, if you're interested in just reading about a lot of different reactions and preparative methods, check out the huge 19th century chemical encyclopedia that I've archived at http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/.

Urushibara Nickel + H2

PrimoPyro - 28-10-2002 at 15:02

Prepare precipitated nickel from NiCl2 via Urushibara methods, and use either H2 or ammonium formate or sodium borohydride, etc. as a hydrogen donor.

PrimoPyro

bonemachine - 29-10-2002 at 00:16

actually i don't have access to many chemicals. Could i use simly Cu to make some Cuo or Cu2O?

bonemachine - 29-10-2002 at 02:05

This could be little of topic but i thing i shouldn't make an other topic for that.....


I think i must clear a few things. First i am new in chemistry and interested mostly in vigorous deflagrating reactions but i am having trouble in finding or make some good oxidisers. I was surprised how violent copper oxide deflagrates with aluminium and i thought that CuO could be used with other fuels or with other combinations (oxidiser/fuel) to speed up the burn rate. The problem is that i have access to few materials and i it is hard for me to get even a small laboratory equipment. Anyway i am trying to form a considerable amound of CuO but i have only pure Cu in a tube shape. If someone could help me to make a good amound of CuO i will be very glad. I had in mind electrolysis but i am far behind from you in chemistry so i can't be sure.

pyroscikim - 29-12-2003 at 01:36

this must be a bit late for reply, but for other readers, you could first dissolve copper in nitric acid, then add sodium hydroxide untill all the copper nitrate has precipitated. then heat the blue hydroxide in water until it dehydrates to black CuO

Theoretic - 21-10-2004 at 12:33

You could get hydrated copper nitrate in this way and then heat it so it decomposes, giving you CuO and nitrogen dioxide + oxygen, you can dissolve this to give you back nitric acid.

neutrino - 21-10-2004 at 14:05

Copper nitrate is insoluble? Are you sure you don't mean copper nitrate hydroxide or copper hydroxide?

Theoretic - 22-10-2004 at 13:41

I didn't mean Cu(NO3)2 is insoluble, I said that hydrated copper nitrate can be heated to give you water vapour and NO2 + O2 (in essence HNO3)

Did you reply to pyroscikim? He meant that Cu(NO3) reacts with NaOH to give Cu(OH)2, which precipitates (he said copper nitrate precipitates, that was an inaccuracy), and NaNO3 which stays dissolved. I consider my method to be more economic on chemicals, however if you have no distillation equipment then pyroscikim's way is the way to go, you could use Na2CO3 instead of NaOH and then heat your CuCO3 to give CuO.

neutrino - 22-10-2004 at 16:41

Yes, I was referring to pyroscikim's post. Just wanted to clear that up.

atombum - 23-10-2004 at 19:42

Quote:
Originally posted by Polverone

"Hydriodic acid is a good reducing agent, but it is illegal to possess in the US (I don't know where you're located), it is very corrosive, and its preparation involves either protracted labor (phosphoric acid + iodide), hydrogen sulfide (iodine + H2S), or elemental phosphorus (iodine + red phosphorus) (kudos to the Hive for teaching me practically everything I know about the preparation and use of HI as a reducing agent)."

------------------------

That's an interesting bit of news. I was under the impression that HI as well as other list I chemicals where heavily regulated (i.e. any transaction must be reported), but not necessarily illegal. In other words the restrictions involved merely the sale/distribution of such items, and that they were not strictly illegal to possess. Ideas?

Polverone - 23-10-2004 at 23:03

Yes, I believe that you are correct. My misinformation followed from back then believing too easily and quickly everything I read on the hive and rhodium.ws, at least with regard to US law. Individual states like California may make HI illegal to possess without a permit, but as far as I can tell since I started doing my own research on the subject, there is no nationwide restriction of this nature.

neutrino - 24-10-2004 at 05:12

The way I understand it, drug precursors <i>are</i> legal to own. But, if the cops find even one cold tablet with your HI, they can charge you with possession of drug precursors with intent to manufacture. With the current war on drugs, this type of thing makes precursors effectively illegal.

rift valley - 25-10-2004 at 11:29

Quote:
Originally posted by Polverone

Seriously, though, carbon can be a powerful reducing agent, but it requires high temperatures to work. Very hot carbon can free even active metals like sodium and potassium from their compounds. This was in fact the basis of commercial Na/K production for many years before the arrival of affordable electrical power.


Can you point me towards any more info on this, I am very interested.

neutrino - 25-10-2004 at 13:53

http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/index.html see the sodium production pdf.

CherrieBaby - 5-3-2005 at 02:49

Quote:
PrimoPyro: Prepare precipitated nickel from NiCl2 via Urushibara methods
You can make Urushibara hydrogenation catalysts from Copper, Iron and Cobalt salts too but these are, generally, not as effective as Nickel. Isopropanol may also act as a hydrogen donar (it oxidises to acetone). What could be esier than that? All you need to make these catalysts are standard reagents and zinc or aluminium powder.