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Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-5-2016 at 21:50

Well, results are on the World. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyCohWrcSoc&feature=gp-n...
For some next attempts I recommended use some different composition, ratios, because with LiClO4 is material much soft, as porridge. And even expensive. Important is, that it was worked. It is not for NM mixture never of course. From classic detonator. Maybe will be better, used again only KClO3. Material will be more density for better manipulation. And much cheap, of course. Problem can be high reactive KClO3 in any mix. But it is question next examination. ...LL...:cool:

MineMan - 12-5-2016 at 15:42

I am very impressed, I am even wondering if this mixture could be set off by flash powder...it seems very sensitive. From your test I would say KCl03 is a tad more touchy in this mixture.

That had some power... Donier, would you be up to seeing if .2grams of your super flash could set this mixture off?

ini

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-5-2016 at 03:04

I know Dornier super flashpowders. Huge work on deminers the field. In this direction I recommended working on quality NPED detonator on ETN based. From a practical produce of amount for detonators. ETN is good, maybe best way for initiation of anything. 300 - 500 mg as output segment is certain for all next attempts. ..LL...:cool:

OneEyedPyro - 13-5-2016 at 03:10

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
I know Dornier super flashpowders. Huge work on deminers the field. In this direction I recommended working on quality NPED detonator on ETN based. From a practical produce of amount for detonators. ETN is good, maybe best way for initiation of anything. 300 - 500 mg as output segment is certain for all next attempts. ..LL...:cool:


Isn't MHN more powerful and sensitive than ETN? It should be even better for NPEDs, though mannitol is not so common as erythritol.

sugars

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-5-2016 at 05:30

Well, this is maybe main reason for large using ETN. Mannitol alcoholic sugar is for deminers with source from the hospital. Erythritol is for everybody in civilisation the world. Thanks huge amount diabetics. Will be impossible for every government restricted sales this sugar. Farmaceutical lobby is against. It is much a big business. And is every a year a bigger. (huhaha) ...LL...:D

PHILOU Zrealone - 13-5-2016 at 08:07

Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro  
Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
I know Dornier super flashpowders. Huge work on deminers the field. In this direction I recommended working on quality NPED detonator on ETN based. From a practical produce of amount for detonators. ETN is good, maybe best way for initiation of anything. 300 - 500 mg as output segment is certain for all next attempts. ..LL...:cool:


Isn't MHN more powerful and sensitive than ETN? It should be even better for NPEDs, though mannitol is not so common as erythritol.

Following Rudolf-Meyer Explosives book, sensitivity of MN, EGDN, NG, ETN is 0.2 N/m while that of MHN is 0.8 N/m --> MHN is 4 times less sensitive...
Since 1N = 98gr +/- = 100gr
0.2N/m is equivalent to the fall of:
a 20g weight from 1 meter
a 200 g weight from 10 cm
a 2kg weight from 1 cm
Explosive pressed between two hard metallic surfaces...

NPED

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-5-2016 at 13:20

Ha! One Eyed... This is important information. This difference I see firstly. Thanks about it. For system NPED I estimate will be better ETN. However is necessary say, that impact test is not all for construction quality deflagration- detonation- transfer ( DDT ). ETN is according international order secondary substance. Not primary. And it is important for next examinations on the field of Non Primary Explosives Detonator..:cool:...LL

Dornier 335A - 13-5-2016 at 23:58

I don't have access to nitromethane so testing the exact same mixture will not be possible. From what I saw in Liptakov's video I'd say it can be kicked to high order detonation with much less than 300 mg ETN. 200 mg of my best nano flash could very well work. It's not as brisant as for example lead azide, but does detonate and delivers five times as much energy.

nano

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-5-2016 at 02:02

I tried several times nanopowder according Dornier, but results was weakly, than original. Produce 200mg for me, was so much work, almost madness. Therefore I recommended ETN as base for NPED...LL..

MineMan - 14-5-2016 at 10:42

Donier, I think your FP would kick it off. Theoretically I think that would be significant because the whole system would contain no primary, or no pseudo primary such as ETN... I think it would be interesting.

Eosin Y again - 14-5-2016 at 10:45

What kind of nano flash (KClO4/ferrocerium etc?)

Eosin Y again - 15-5-2016 at 04:25

Some thoughts.

1) Acetic acid + tetranitromethane = trinitroacetic acid?

CH3COOH+C(NO2)4=C(NO2)3COOH+CH3NO2 (which would bubble out of solution.)

2) Ammonium chloride + trinitroacetic acid = dinitroaminoacetic acid?

NH4Cl+C(NO2)3COOH=C(NO2)2COONH3+HCl

These might be rubbish because I am just speculating.

PHILOU Zrealone - 15-5-2016 at 07:20

Quote: Originally posted by Eosin Y again  
Some thoughts.

1) Acetic acid + tetranitromethane = trinitroacetic acid?

CH3COOH+C(NO2)4=C(NO2)3COOH+CH3NO2 (which would bubble out of solution.)

2) Ammonium chloride + trinitroacetic acid = dinitroaminoacetic acid?

NH4Cl+C(NO2)3COOH=C(NO2)2COONH3+HCl

These might be rubbish because I am just speculating.

Right! Speculative full of mistakes irrealistic dreams!

[Edited on 15-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

nano

Laboratory of Liptakov - 15-5-2016 at 13:27

Research nano powders I appreciate very much. But so far, unfortunately, I have not seen one functional detonator based on nano powder. Against this, NPED on ETN based worked. Hundred exemplars was tested and really it worked. With fuse, with different ratios and different additives. MineMan trying ETN + Mg + KClO4 and DDT worked this. Results I not see, but belive that worked. If nanopowder hacked 2mm steel plate (hole through) , after it, I will belive. It will be a small hole in plate, but big jump for all deminers...:cool:...LL

OneEyedPyro - 15-5-2016 at 14:27

Some nano flash powders show incredibly fast DDT and fairly good brisance usually more often associated with molecular primaries, I think some would be good candidates for use in detonators in terms of raw performance.

What I don't understand is why anyone would want to use a nano flash powder in place of ETN considering that the static spark sensitivity is typically much worse with FPs, not to mention how metallic fuel/oxidizer mixtures are often not storage stable over time and how insanely hard nano flash is to make in practical quantities.

ETN is safe yet just sensitive enough to be used in NPEDs, it has shown to be reliable and effective etc.
Why fix what isn't broken?

MineMan - 15-5-2016 at 15:58

OneEyed, I agree, good points.

Yes LL, that mixture does work, quite well... I might say I am quite impressed with myself!

simply

Laboratory of Liptakov - 15-5-2016 at 21:36

Albert Einstein once said: Things should be done, as simply as possible. But not simpler. And I say: things should be done so simply, to fulfill its purpose...:cool:...LL

glymes - 16-5-2016 at 13:16

True or false?

And by the same token trichloroacetic acid + nitric acid = trinitroacetic acid?

The above would be better because it would give a higher oxygen percentage, allowing for more explosive, more dense transition metal salts.

[Edited on 16-5-2016 by glymes]

IMG_1925.PNG - 152kB

Cryolite - 16-5-2016 at 13:34

That isn't going to work.

2HNO3 + CHCl2(COOH) -> CH(NO2)2(COOH) + 2HOCl (!)

The (hypothetically formed) hypochlorous acid would then oxidize the substituted acetic acid even further, forming a large mess.

Regardless, Cl+ is a better electrophile than NO2+, and so any proposed electrophilic substitution would not work.

Nitrite, on the other hand, may work, as is the case in the lab-scale preparation of nitromethane from chloroacetic acid and sodium nitrite -- the nitrite isomerizes to a nitro due to the electron withdrawing properties of the carboxylic acid substituent.

glymes - 16-5-2016 at 13:46

Oh. So 2NaNO2+2HCl+CH(Cl)2(COOH)=CH(NO2)2(COOH)+2HCl?

glymes - 17-5-2016 at 04:52

Next please...
C3N3Cl3H3+3HNO3=C3N6O9+3HCl+3H
I can't find any literature references.

[Edited on 17-5-2016 by glymes]

Screen Shot 2016-05-17 at 13.50.44.png - 11kB

woelen - 17-5-2016 at 05:06

C3N3Cl3H3???
What is this? This cannot be an existing cyclic compound. We have C3N3Cl3 (cyanuric chloride) and C3N3Cl3O3 (TCCA) but not C3N3Cl3H3.

glymes - 17-5-2016 at 05:08

Sorry about the typo. C3N3Cl3O3. I was wondering why my reaction didn't make sense!

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-5-2016 at 07:22

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Albert Einstein once said: Things should be done, as simply as possible. But not simpler. And I say: things should be done so simply, to fulfill its purpose...:cool:...LL

The K.I.S.S. pragmatism...
Keep It Short and Simple :D;):P

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-5-2016 at 07:31

Quote: Originally posted by glymes  
True or false?

And by the same token trichloroacetic acid + nitric acid = trinitroacetic acid?

The above would be better because it would give a higher oxygen percentage, allowing for more explosive, more dense transition metal salts.

[Edited on 16-5-2016 by glymes]

Oh NO!
You again!
I recognised your DNA!

-Octonitrocubane
-A nitrogen rich explosive
-Eosin Y
-Eosin Y again

You keep on doing the same mistakes again and again!
Write équations correctly please avoid = symbol and gross molecular formulas!
1°)Valences carbon is tetravalent --> you miss a H atom
2°)If your compound do existed it would be a diprotic acid and with a base, the protons would be lost and replaced by the metal...so again the same kind of mistakes as you usally did under your previous ID's.
3°)Nitration will happen on the acidic H and form eventually dichloronitroacetic acid, such compound will more than certainly decarboxylate into dichloronitromethane.
4°)The later will maybe disproportionate into chloropicrin and chloronitromethane or nitromethane; or nitrate further forming dichlorodinitromethane but with a high risk of formation of NxOy and phosgen (Cl2C=O) because geminal NO2 are unstable and easily turns into nitrite esters.


[Edited on 17-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-5-2016 at 07:39

Quote: Originally posted by glymes  
Oh. So 2NaNO2+2HCl+CH(Cl)2(COOH)=CH(NO2)2(COOH)+2HCl?

And magically TADAAAHHHH...
the sodium disappeared from the equation...
Glymes aka the multiple ID poster is also an alchemist magician transmuting sodium to anti-matter...

How is nitromethane done from chloroacetic acid and NaNO2?
Search for the equation and transpose to mono-substitution and disubstitution...
What could be the side products since substitution is not 100% effective? 60%-30% depending on conditions...
The other product is hydrolysable into what?

[Edited on 17-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-5-2016 at 07:42

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
C3N3Cl3H3???
What is this? This cannot be an existing cyclic compound. We have C3N3Cl3 (cyanuric chloride) and C3N3Cl3O3 (TCCA) but not C3N3Cl3H3.

Because if you take the time to make a beautiful drawing; then take a minute to count each atom kind not to make mistakes into your équations...
Like I said many times to your other IDs:
Think twice and even more before posting aberrations.
Use the search engine!

Trinitroisocyanuric and trinitrocyanuric rings have been discussed many times.

[Edited on 17-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

theory

Laboratory of Liptakov - 17-5-2016 at 08:49

I just finished the special theory of relativity for all the deminers. E = O . H2.
And vice versa: O . H2 = E. Respectively VoD is about 3200m/s. Without any detonator. Only hot wire. Maybe will be good a only warm wire. Short and simply. And mix worked always. Is it relatively bullshit, but is it contribution. https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/3730...
...:cool:...LL

kratomiter - 17-5-2016 at 12:35

One quick question: I want to try the synthesis of guanidine perchlorate using ammonium perchlorate instead of perchloric acid.

NH2C(=NH)NH2 · ½H2CO3 + NH4ClO4 -> NH2C(=NH)NH2ClO4 + NH3 + CO2 + H2O

At high temperatures (>80ºC) in water solution NH3 and CO2 will leave the system, shifting the reaction to the right. Is this correct? Synthesis of HClO4 is not very amateur-friendly and I want to avoid it.

Dornier 335A - 18-5-2016 at 02:39

Thanks for that H2/O2 paper Liptakov! It confirms that my BKW implementation (calibrated for solid/liquid explosives!) works exceptionally well for gaseous mixtures too!
The graph is from that report above; the red dots are my calculated values.
IfrxJH3.png - 174kB

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-5-2016 at 04:41

Quote: Originally posted by kratomiter  
One quick question: I want to try the synthesis of guanidine perchlorate using ammonium perchlorate instead of perchloric acid.

NH2C(=NH)NH2 · ½H2CO3 + NH4ClO4 -> NH2C(=NH)NH2ClO4 + NH3 + CO2 + H2O

At high temperatures (>80ºC) in water solution NH3 and CO2 will leave the system, shifting the reaction to the right. Is this correct? Synthesis of HClO4 is not very amateur-friendly and I want to avoid it.

Should work since guanidine is a stronger base than NH3 and HClO4 a stronger acid than H2CO3.
Then:
(H2N-)2C=NH.H2CO3 + NH4ClO4 <--==> (H2N-)2C=NH.HClO4 + NH4HCO3
NH4HCO3 -heat-> NH3 + CO2 + H2O

Maybe to avoid suffocating allow the fumes to pass over agitated saturated CuSO4 solution...it will catch the H2O, the CO2 and the NH3
CuSO4(aq) + 4 NH3 (g) --> Cu(NH3)4SO4(aq)
CuSO4 + H2CO3 --> CuCO3(s) + H2SO4
NH3 + H2SO4 --> NH4HSO4
NH4HSO4 + NH3 --> (NH4)2SO4

Alternatively you may use CaCl2
CaCl2 + NH3(g) --> CaCl2.x NH3
CaCl2 + H2CO3 --> CaCO3(s) + 2 HCl
HCl + NH3 --> NH4Cl

Do not allow the tube to go into the CuSO4 or CaCl2 solution or it will be sucked up because NH3 has a big affinity for H2O and for the complex --> this would cause a depression and CuSO4 or CaCl2 solution would pass into the initial reactor.

[Edited on 18-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

H20

Laboratory of Liptakov - 18-5-2016 at 06:02

Well! The theory of water confirmed. Velocity of detonation is even bigger , than I'm waiting. Your counting system is working precise. Good picture insert points, Dorni. Short question: How is highest VoD for H2+ 02? Graph is not ended upstairs. I'm estimate, that is it interesting question for all. Thanks..:cool:....LL

glymes - 18-5-2016 at 07:15

What explosive are you talking about? Minemanit? Glycolex?

Dornier 335A - 18-5-2016 at 07:58

Good question indeed Liptakov.
I ran these calculations for a gas mixture at 1.03 bar and 298 K.

Code:
Highest detonation velocity: 3725 m/s 90.7% H2, 9.3% O2 Highest detonation temperature: 3457 K 67.2% H2, 32.8% O2 Highest detonation pressure: 18.9 bar 69.1% H2, 30.9% O2


EM

Laboratory of Liptakov - 18-5-2016 at 08:32

Huuh.. Thanks for everybody. Highest press only 19 Bars? However if is full for example room, good pressure.
Next, glymes: Minemanit is EM, inventor MineMan. Glycolite (not glycolex) is EM, inventor Dr. Liptakov...:cool:...looking on YT.

glymes - 18-5-2016 at 09:12

Ah. Minemanit looks pretty good...
I'll U2U you one of my ideas.

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-5-2016 at 09:39

Quote: Originally posted by glymes  
True or false?

And by the same token trichloroacetic acid + nitric acid = trinitroacetic acid?

The above would be better because it would give a higher oxygen percentage, allowing for more explosive, more dense transition metal salts.

[Edited on 16-5-2016 by glymes]

So because Glymes (alias octonitrocubane, A nitrogen rich explosive, Eosin Y, Eosin Y again) doesn't do his homeworks.
He wrote:
1)Cl2C-CO2H -HNO3-> (O2N-)2C-CO2H
2)dichloroacetic acid + nitric acid --> dinitroacetic acid
3)C2H2Cl2O2 + 2 HNO3 --> C2H2N2O4
4)C2H2N2O4 + 2KOH --> KC2H2N2O4

But this is all wrong!
1°) dichloroacetic acid is Cl2CH-CO2H (to respect tetravalence of C)
2°) HNO3 will more likely attack the CH from Cl2CH- and as explained earlier will form Cl2C(NO2)-CO2H; this carboxylic acid holding strong electron withdrawing groups (EWG) will easily decarboxylate...
This is observed:
-in the lab making of nitromethane from chloroacetic acid and NaNO2 (the transcient nitroacetic acid is destroyed),
-in pyruvic acid that easily turns into ethanal + CO2,
-in malonic acid that easily turns into acetic acid + CO2
-in easy transformation of trinitrobenzoic acid into TNB + CO2
3°) If the equation 3 was true; then dinitroacetic acid would be C2H2N2O6 (by magic power Glymes made 2 oxygen disappear!)
4°) If equation 4 was true; then magically again you involve 2 KOH into acido-basic reactions but only get one attached; the second is gone as dark matter...
C2H2N2O6 + 2KOH --> C2K2N2O6 + 2 H2O

Again writing equation is gross molecular formula increases the risk of mistakes. You should opt for semi-developped formulas.

In chemistry the matter is conserved so you must have the same number of atoms of each kind on both sides of the equation

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-5-2016 at 09:59

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Quote: Originally posted by glymes  
Oh. So 2NaNO2+2HCl+CH(Cl)2(COOH)=CH(NO2)2(COOH)+2HCl?

And magically TADAAAHHHH...
the sodium disappeared from the equation...
Glymes aka the multiple ID poster is also an alchemist magician transmuting sodium to anti-matter...

How is nitromethane done from chloroacetic acid and NaNO2?
Search for the equation and transpose to mono-substitution and disubstitution...
What could be the side products since substitution is not 100% effective? 60%-30% depending on conditions...
The other product is hydrolysable into what?

[Edited on 17-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Because Glyme aka the multiple ID poster has not done his homework:
2NaNO2+2HCl+CH(Cl)2(COOH) --> CH(NO2)2(COOH)+2HCl
1°) Use arrows instead of =
2°) Why use HCl?
In chemical equations what is on both sides can be supressed so:
2NaNO2+CH(Cl)2(COOH) --> CH(NO2)2(COOH)+2 NaCl

3°) 2 Cl-CH2-CO2H + 2 NaNO2 --> O2N-CH2-CO2H + O=N-O-CH2-CO2H + 2 NaCl
O2N-CH2-CO2H --> CH3-NO2 + CO2(g)
So
2 Cl2CH-CO2H + 2 NaNO2 --> O2N-CHCl-CO2H + O=N-O-CHCl-CO2H + 2 NaCl
then
O2N-CHCl-CO2H --> CH2Cl-NO2 + CO2(g)
O=N-O-CHCl-CO2H + H2O <==> HONO + HOCHCl-CO2H
HOCHCl-CO2H <==> HCl + O=CH-CO2H
O=CH-CO2H -oxydant like HNO2-> HO2C-CO2H
CH2Cl-NO2 + HONO --> O=N-CHCl-NO2 + H2O
then
2 CH2Cl-NO2 + 2 NaNO2 --> CH2(-NO2)2 + O=N-O-CH2-NO2 + 2 NaCl
O=N-O-CH2-NO2 + H2O --> HONO + HO-CH2-NO2
HO-CH2-NO2 <==> HONO + CH2=O
CH2=O -oxydant like HNO2-> H2CO3 --> H2O + CO2
CH2(-NO2)2 + HONO --> O=N-CH(-NO2)2 + H2O <==> HO-N=C(-NO2)2 + H2O
HO-CH2-NO2 + HONO --> HO-C(=NOH)-NO2 + H2O --> CO2 + H2O + N2
HO-N=C(-NO2)2 -more likely-> CO2 + H2O + NxOy

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-5-2016 at 10:23

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Quote: Originally posted by Eosin Y again  
Some thoughts.

1) Acetic acid + tetranitromethane = trinitroacetic acid?

CH3COOH+C(NO2)4=C(NO2)3COOH+CH3NO2 (which would bubble out of solution.)

2) Ammonium chloride + trinitroacetic acid = dinitroaminoacetic acid?

NH4Cl+C(NO2)3COOH=C(NO2)2COONH3+HCl

These might be rubbish because I am just speculating.

Right! Speculative full of mistakes irrealistic dreams!

[Edited on 15-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

You of course noticed that Glyme and Eosin Y write the same kind of équations with the same kind of mistakes... do you?
Glymes wrote
1) Acetic acid + tetranitromethane = trinitroacetic acid?
CH3COOH+C(NO2)4=C(NO2)3COOH+CH3NO2 (which would bubble out of solution.)
2) Ammonium chloride + trinitroacetic acid = dinitroaminoacetic acid?
NH4Cl+C(NO2)3COOH=C(NO2)2COONH3+HCl

So here again:
1°) Don't use =, use arrows
2°) The first equation may eventually make a messy media
CH3-CO2H <==--> CH3-CO2(-) + H(+)
C(NO2)4 <==> C(NO2)3(-) + NO2(+)
By crossed recombination
CH3-CO2(-) + NO2(+) --> CH3-CO-O-N=O (mixed anhydride of acetic acid and nitrous acid)
H(+) + C(NO2)3(-) <==> HC(NO2)3
This explains that C(NO2)4 (TNM) is sometimes used as a nitration media (but this is risky and making solutions of acetic acid and TNM is potentially explosive because acetic acid is a fuel (yes 100% acetic acid burns).
3°) If your first equation was right; then CH3-NO2 would not bubble out of solution (with a bp of 101°C NM will not boil spontaneously under atmospheric pressure and at lab temperature!
4°) If your first equation was right; then it would be CO2 that would boil off solution! For the reasons invoqued in previous posts carboxylic acid with strong electron withdrawing groups decarboxylate easily...this is even more true when 2 EWG are involved and a fortiori if 3 are involved...
(O2N-)3C-CO2H ==> HC(NO2)3 + CO2(g)
5°) Your second equation is wrong and violate many laws of chemistry.
-For an obscure reason you take rid of one NO2 groups (dark matter again)
-For the same reason you take rid of one H atom NH4(+) turns into NH3 linked to a molecule
-trinitroacetic acid would make trinitromethane (+CO2); the first one would be a strong acid if it existed, the second is a strong acid but none would beat the very high acidity of HCl (see pKa tables to understand)...and HCl would thus stick to the NH3 base... --> no exchange of NH4(+) possible.

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-5-2016 at 10:34

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
I just finished the special theory of relativity for all the deminers. E = O . H2.
And vice versa: O . H2 = E. Respectively VoD is about 3200m/s. Without any detonator. Only hot wire. Maybe will be good a only warm wire. Short and simply. And mix worked always. Is it relatively bullshit, but is it contribution. https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/3730...
...:cool:...LL

Could you elaborate a bit?
E= m*c² :D;)
you wrote E = 0*h*2

so E = 0 :P:P

big Theory

Laboratory of Liptakov - 18-5-2016 at 12:50

Thank you for interest about my Great Theory of the water. O = oxygen H = hydrogen. 2 = multiplying, H x H = 2 pieces of Hydrogen. Well.. hm...So much in my theory would better not much dissect. Is it international truth, it is clearly. Water know everybody. Please, do no drilling and do not doubts. Everybody can forget on E = m . c 2.
Now apply E = O . H 2. Dot....:cool:...LL

glymes - 19-5-2016 at 01:04

This could be interesting:

70:25:5 NH4ClO4:Palmitic acid/napthenic acid/gasoline:magnesium powder. This might act as a sort of 'vacuum' explosive: napalm uses up enormous quanitities of oxygen and this mixture could detonate and create a pressure wave that collapses in on itself...

Dornier 335A - 19-5-2016 at 03:23

But the ammonium perchlorate in your mixture provides that oxygen.

So called "vacuum bombs" rely on large amounts of metal powder that combusts in the air after the detonation. First it heats the air and detonation products to a few thousand kelvins, expanding them by a factor ten or so. Then the products condense and rapidly lowers the pressure. The low pressure wave deals very nasty damage...

glymes - 19-5-2016 at 04:40

Ah, sorry about that. Fuel-air bombs can also work like this. They should be banned as weapons of mass destruction. That mixture could still be interesting.

kratomiter - 19-5-2016 at 08:49

Thanks PHILOU for your answer, I'll try it soon.

[Edited on 19-5-2016 by kratomiter]

ecos - 22-5-2016 at 04:29

Quote: Originally posted by kratomiter  
One quick question: I want to try the synthesis of guanidine perchlorate using ammonium perchlorate instead of perchloric acid.

NH2C(=NH)NH2 · ½H2CO3 + NH4ClO4 -> NH2C(=NH)NH2ClO4 + NH3 + CO2 + H2O

At high temperatures (>80ºC) in water solution NH3 and CO2 will leave the system, shifting the reaction to the right. Is this correct? Synthesis of HClO4 is not very amateur-friendly and I want to avoid it.

.

Guanidine perchlorate, however, is a detonation-sensitive material which is hazardous to handle. Its impact sensitivity by the Bureau of Mines Test (2 kilogram weight, 50 probability) is below 5 centimeters (cm.) The hazards involved in preparing propellants from it have therefore interfered with its utilization.

glymes - 22-5-2016 at 05:33

I think that aminoguanidine perchlorate would be more stable?

glymes - 22-5-2016 at 05:57

I think that aminoguanidine perchlorate would be more stable?

kratomiter - 22-5-2016 at 07:44

Thank you for your warning ecos. It will be a little batch, just to see if it's useful as a cheap primary.

PHILOU Zrealone - 23-5-2016 at 05:01

Quote: Originally posted by ecos  
Quote: Originally posted by kratomiter  
One quick question: I want to try the synthesis of guanidine perchlorate using ammonium perchlorate instead of perchloric acid.

NH2C(=NH)NH2 · ½H2CO3 + NH4ClO4 -> NH2C(=NH)NH2ClO4 + NH3 + CO2 + H2O

At high temperatures (>80ºC) in water solution NH3 and CO2 will leave the system, shifting the reaction to the right. Is this correct? Synthesis of HClO4 is not very amateur-friendly and I want to avoid it.

.

Guanidine perchlorate, however, is a detonation-sensitive material which is hazardous to handle. Its impact sensitivity by the Bureau of Mines Test (2 kilogram weight, 50 probability) is below 5 centimeters (cm.) The hazards involved in preparing propellants from it have therefore interfered with its utilization.

Only when dry! If the reaction is made in water...no risk.
Then slow evaporation in dry air at ambient T° to get dry GP.
It is indeed powerful detonating stuf.

PHILOU Zrealone - 23-5-2016 at 05:09

Quote: Originally posted by glymes  
I think that aminoguanidine perchlorate would be more stable?

Stop thinking that what you think is the truth.
AGP would eventually be more sensitive to shock and friction than GP because it contains a hydrazino group what reduces the energy (enthalpy) of formation of the compound and increases its energy (enthalpy) of explosion.
About chemical stability both salts are salts from a strong base with a strong acid and are thus storage stable.

Typical example are NH4ClO4 and N2H5ClO4:
Despite NH4ClO4 is denser than N2H5ClO4...
N2H5ClO4 is more sensitive to shock and friction than NH4ClO4 and its VOD, brisance and Lead Block Test for 10gr are higher than those of NH4ClO4

ecos - 25-5-2016 at 07:37

why to do guanidine perchlorate if you can do Hydrazonium diperchlorate? at least it is less sensitive.

Quote:

Hydrazonium diperchlorate (HP2) is an exceedingly energetic oxidizer. In addition to its exceptional potency, it has certain other advantages which would make it a desirable oxidizing component in solid propellant compositions. These advantages include high density, high burning rate and relatively low sensitivity towards initiation by shock.


PHILOU Zrealone - 26-5-2016 at 04:38

Quote: Originally posted by ecos  
why to do guanidine perchlorate if you can do Hydrazonium diperchlorate? at least it is less sensitive.

Quote:

Hydrazonium diperchlorate (HP2) is an exceedingly energetic oxidizer. In addition to its exceptional potency, it has certain other advantages which would make it a desirable oxidizing component in solid propellant compositions. These advantages include high density, high burning rate and relatively low sensitivity towards initiation by shock.


1°) Hydrolytically unstable (needs high acidity to remain as a dication)...
2°) Very acidic --> corrosive to metals
3°) Easily sets HClO4 free what is bad news regarding the uncompatibilities of that acid with many minerals, metals and organic materials
4°) Overoxygenated, so despite high density, lack of energy output on its own...so VOD will likely be much lower than expected...this is the case of tetranitromethane, hexanitroethane...quite dense, but moderate VOD (4-6 km/s) when pure....(when mixed with active fuels the VOD goes up a lot)
5°) Pure HDP displays the properties you wrote, but when mixed with fuel, all those benefits are ruined and the propellant will become a sensitive, unstable detonating material...

Better focus on other molecules like:
1°) H2N-C(=NH)-C(=NH)-NH2 . 2 HClO4 (bisformamidine or oxala(dia)midine diperchlorate)
2°) H2N-C(=NH)-NH-C(=NH)-NH2 .2 HClO4 (biguanidine diperchlorate about as good as RDX)
3°) Cyanoguanidine (di-cyanamide) perchlorate N#C-NH-C(=NH)-NH2 . HClO4
4°) ethylene dihydroxylaminium diperchlorate
N-variant (HO-HN-CH2-CH2-NH-OH) and O-variant (H2N-O-CH2-CH2-O-NH2)
5°) 1,2,3-propantriamine triperchlorate (H2N-CH2-CH(-NH2)-CH2-NH2 . 3 HClO4)
6°) Ethylenedihydrazine diperchlorate (H2N-NH-CH2-CH2-NH-NH2 . 2 HClO4)
7°) Melamine di or triperchlorate
....
The bases of 1°), 2°), 3°), 5°) and 7°) reacted with N2H4 forming amino, diamino, triamino, tetraamino variant of the bases --> perchlorates...

All those will be denser and more energetic than GP (guanidine perchlorate).


[Edited on 26-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

glymes - 27-5-2016 at 12:13

Also:

Ethylenediamine diperchlorate (H2N-(CH2)2-NH2.2HClO4)
Isopropyl amine perchlorate (H3C-(C-NH2)-CH3.HClO4)
5-aminotetrazole perchlorate ((C-NH2)-N3-(C-NH).HClO4)
Ethylamine perchlorate (CH2-CH2-NH2.HClO4)

ganger631 - 28-5-2016 at 01:33

Are there any differences between 28 percent ammonium nitrate vs 35 ammonium nitrate, other than being lower nitrogen content? Will it be fine for making nitric acid?

ecos - 28-5-2016 at 05:01

Quote: Originally posted by ganger631  
Are there any differences between 28 percent ammonium nitrate vs 35 ammonium nitrate, other than being lower nitrogen content? Will it be fine for making nitric acid?

the nitrogen content of AN is the same but you have more impurities in the 25% part.

the 25% will give you less nitric acid than 35% but it will work.
my advice for you is to buy nitric acid better than going to a hard process.

PHILOU Zrealone - 28-5-2016 at 11:14

Quote: Originally posted by glymes  
Also:

Ethylenediamine diperchlorate (H2N-(CH2)2-NH2.2HClO4)
Isopropyl amine perchlorate (H3C-(C-NH2)-CH3.HClO4)
5-aminotetrazole perchlorate ((C-NH2)-N3-(C-NH).HClO4)
Ethylamine perchlorate (CH2-CH2-NH2.HClO4)

Much less interesting, because less dense and usually worst OB--> worst detonic parameters!

Off those 4 compounds the best are
EDA DP (O3ClOH3N-CH2-CH2-NH3OClO3)
5-ATz P (O3ClOH3N-CN4H)

O3ClOH3N-CH2-CH2-NH3OClO3 --> N2(g) + 2 CO2(g) + 4 H2O(g) + 2 HCl(g) (perfect OB)

O3ClOH3N-CN4H --> 5/2 N2(g) + CO2(g) + 2 H2O(g) + 1/2 Cl2(g) (almost perfect OB, the 1/2 Cl2 could burn 1 extra H)

[Edited on 29-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

kratomiter - 29-5-2016 at 09:13

I've been playing with guanidine perchlorate. Easy to make and sensitive, so it could be a great primary explosive. Mixed with oxides of some transition metals (like TiO2) lowers the temperature of explosion, I hope this way will make it more fuse-sensitive.
It's also a good propellant in combination of alkali perchlorate and a polymer to reduce its sensitivity.

PHILOU Zrealone - 29-5-2016 at 10:40

Quote: Originally posted by kratomiter  
I've been playing with guanidine perchlorate. Easy to make and sensitive, so it could be a great primary explosive. Mixed with oxides of some transition metals (like TiO2) lowers the temperature of explosion, I hope this way will make it more fuse-sensitive.
It's also a good propellant in combination of alkali perchlorate and a polymer to reduce its sensitivity.

One may even consider the making of complexes of transition metals perchlorate with guanidine complexant...
Like:
Cu(Gu)2(ClO4)2
Co(Gu)3(ClO4)2 or Co(Gu)3(ClO4)3
Ni(Gu)3(ClO4)2 or Ni(Gu)3(ClO4)3
...

ecos - 31-5-2016 at 03:31

is it possible to convert guanidine perchlorate to Biguanide diperchlorate ?

Biguanide diperchlorate is more powerful(8490 m/s) and less sensitive(impact sensitivity 11.8).

PHILOU Zrealone - 31-5-2016 at 07:43

Quote: Originally posted by ecos  
is it possible to convert guanidine perchlorate to Biguanide diperchlorate ?

Biguanide diperchlorate is more powerful(8490 m/s) and less sensitive(impact sensitivity 11.8).

Yes more powerful as explained in a earlier post above.

Sadly not by simple nor direct ways :(

Usually one has to start from H2N-C#N (cyanamide)...
Two molecules condense into cyano-guanidine (dicyan(di)amide)
H2N-C#N + H2N-C#N --> H2N-C(=NH)-NH-C#N
If you push too hard the reaction conditions, you go straight to melamine (triamino-sym-triazine).
Then condensation of cyano-guanidine with an ammonium salt
H2N-C(=NH)-NH-C#N + NH4Cl --> H2N-C(=NH)-NH-C(=NH)-NH3Cl

Maybe:
-from guanidine free base with Cl-C#N (cyanogen chloride) you could get to cyanoguanidine hydrochloride
H2N-C(=NH)-NH2 + Cl-C#N --> H2N-C(=NH)-NH-C#N . HCl
-from guanidine free base with formamidine chloride you could get to biguanidine hydrochloride
H2N-C(=NH)-NH2 + Cl-C(=NH)-NH2 --> H2N-C(=NH)-NH-C(=NH)-NH3Cl

But cyanogen chloride is nasty and formamidine chloride probably aswel.

kratomiter - 4-6-2016 at 02:39

Someone has tried the synthesis of aminoguanidine from guanidine and hydrazine? I tried neutralizing guanidine carbonate with hydrochloric acid ande then adding hydrazine sulfate. One hour at ~80ºC while stirring. I don't know why but hydrazine sulfate doesn't seem to dissolve at all (I got a lot of white precipitate which I believe is hydrazine sulfate). Aminoguanidine hydrochloride in solution should be yellow but mine is colourless. Any idea?

PHILOU Zrealone - 4-6-2016 at 05:03

Quote: Originally posted by kratomiter  
Someone has tried the synthesis of aminoguanidine from guanidine and hydrazine? I tried neutralizing guanidine carbonate with hydrochloric acid ande then adding hydrazine sulfate. One hour at ~80ºC while stirring. I don't know why but hydrazine sulfate doesn't seem to dissolve at all (I got a lot of white precipitate which I believe is hydrazine sulfate). Aminoguanidine hydrochloride in solution should be yellow but mine is colourless. Any idea?

Right no aminoguanidine inthere!

To be able to perform the substitution you need the free base, not the salt!
You started from guanidine hydrochloride and hydrazine hydrogenosulfate...so no base is free.
You eather need guanidine and HHS or hydrazine and GHC.

So in fact adding 1 equivalent or two of NaOH will help you for that purpose since NaOH is a stronger base, it will catch the hydrochloride or sulfate of hydrogen and set some hydrazine/guanidine free (hydrazine is the weakest base so it will be freebased first; then guanidine).

Then upon heating-reflux NH3 may freely be evolved from the system.
H2N-C(=NH)-NH2 + H2N-NH2 <==> H2N-NH-C(=NH)-NH2 + NH3(g)
It is an equilibrium!
NH3 is a stronger base than hydrazine but weaker than guanidine; but NH3 is much more volatile than hydrazine,which is itself more volatile than guanidine...when getting out of the system NH3 gas favors the right reaction side and the formation of aminoguanidine.

Note that you will not only have mono-amino but also di-amino and tri-amino-guanidine and initial guanidine salt based on a statistical distribution (depends on initial ratio of the réactants).

I would start from Guanidine hydrochloride and hydrazine hydrate to avoid the sulfate anion and Na2SO4, NaHSO4...but then you need to work the hydrazine hydrogenosulfate with Ba(OH)2 or Ca(OH)2 to get rid of the sulfate as a CaSO4 or BaSO4 precipitate.

Alternatively distilate hydrazine in the cold and in PE or PP plastic apparatus from a dry (or slightly wet) exces NaOH and hydrazine hydrogenosulfate.
Avoid glass since NaOH and hydrazine are corrosive to it and avoid overheating since hydrazine is endothermic from its elements and hypergolic...so might take fire or explode.


[Edited on 4-6-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

kratomiter - 4-6-2016 at 05:19

Thank you PHILOU. Doesn't aminoguanidine hydrolize in basic media?

PHILOU Zrealone - 4-6-2016 at 14:53

Quote: Originally posted by kratomiter  
Thank you PHILOU. Doesn't aminoguanidine hydrolize in basic media?

Possible but slow...theorically guanidine is an amide derivative of carbonic acid...
(HO-)2C=O + H2O --> C(-OH)4
(H2N-)2C=NH + NH3 --> C(-NH2)4
C(-OH)4 + 4 NH3 <==> C(-NH2)4 + 4 H2O

edit:
So in principle:
(H2N-)2C=NH + H2O <==> (H2N-)2C=O + NH3
guanidine + water <--> urea + NH3

(H2N-)2C=O + H2O <==> H2N-CO2H + NH3
urea + water <--> ammonium carbamate (H2N-CO2NH4)

H2N-CO2NH4 + H2O <==> (HO-)2C=O + 2 NH3
ammonium carbamate + water <--> ammonium carbonate ((NH4)2CO3)

[Edited on 5-6-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

A banned chemical - 4-6-2016 at 23:28

Hi guys been lurking here for sometime.

I have a question relating to a most likely silly thought but I simply can't shake the idea.
I searched online and came up with nothing so I'm assuming its not a thing but like I said I can't shake the idea.

So anyway I was looking at a select group of compounds that might be suitable candidates for research explosives.
I was looking in particular for compounds of similar structure or with similar groupings to existing materials that have been confirmed to be nitratable into an explosive of either an ester amine or nitro aromatic type.

So anyway here's the question caffeine.
Could this be nitrated into an explosive?
Its an aromatic with groups that match non aromatic groups to some degree.

This like I said may be a stupid question so please don't be mad if it is I tried not to start a new thread on it so if it is then hey whatever.



PHILOU Zrealone - 5-6-2016 at 08:15

Quote: Originally posted by A banned chemical  

I was looking in particular for compounds of similar structure or with similar groupings to existing materials that have been confirmed to be nitratable into an explosive of either an ester amine or nitro aromatic type.

So anyway here's the question caffeine.
Could this be nitrated into an explosive?
Its an aromatic with groups that match non aromatic groups to some degree.

What is ester amine?

Amines, alcohols, halogen (by substitution) are nitratable.

Caffeine may be turned after partial or total hydrolysis into methylnitramine or methylamine nitrate but it is a big waste of material.

[Edited on 6-6-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

A banned chemical - 5-6-2016 at 08:25

Sorry punctuation may have helped there.
I meant that as in I comparing to common nitro esters/amines

Do you have a feasible (practical) method this is something that interests me.
Even if you give a general idea of rough quantities I am willing to refine and post results here.

On that note do you have any idea of what this compounds properties would be sensitivity,VOD,toxicity etc?


DubaiAmateurRocketry - 7-6-2016 at 08:15

Lol sounds like "a nitrogen rich molecule"

A banned chemical - 7-6-2016 at 21:08

I don't get the joke.

Seriously though anyone know were a synthesis can be found or does any one have one?

[Edited on 8-6-2016 by A banned chemical]

PHILOU Zrealone - 8-6-2016 at 03:23

Quote: Originally posted by A banned chemical  
I don't get the joke.

Seriously though anyone know were a synthesis can be found or does any one have one?

[Edited on 8-6-2016 by A banned chemical]

This is not a joke, everytime a new poster writes, it reminds us a trolling poster that had mutliple ID and posting continuously mistakes, daydreams, schizophrenic non sense...
Everytime his account was blocked, he came back with a new saying he wasn't the same guy...but he was and we noticed because his ideas where in the same line, and he was always doing the same kind of chemical mistakes.

Not from cafeine...because unpractical and un-economical

About the properties, everything is to be found into the forum via the search engine or on internet by Google-ing...but of course you need to type in the good key words...

[Edited on 8-6-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Mr.BairyHalls - 11-6-2016 at 12:58

Hello everyone, I have a question in regards to the eutectics of ETN and more specifically ETN/RDX. Does anyone have any information on the performance and general properties of an ETN/RDX cast composite? If so, can someone point me in the right direction? I'm currently testing and researching the properties on an ETN/RDX (2:1 & 2:5) cast composite and cocrystal. I believe NeonPulse mentioned it earlier in this thread but I'd like to know more. Also, I was wondering if I should open a new thread and post my results since there is currently no available thread on the subject.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242345030_Thermal_b...

[Edited on 11-6-2016 by Mr.BairyHalls]

PHILOU Zrealone - 12-6-2016 at 03:04

BairyHalls --> HairyBalls ;):P:D

Just kidding

Mr.BairyHalls - 12-6-2016 at 21:54

I'm glad someone gets it :cool:

KesterDraconis - 13-6-2016 at 15:31

I have a question about the synthesis of nickle hydrazine nitrate.

I have hydrazine sulfate, but I don't have any calcium hydrozide or barium hydroxide to react with, then filter off, to get a solution of hydrzine hydrate. Would there happen be another way than using these to chemicals to get a solution of hydrazine from hydrazine sulfate that would be safe to use in the synthesis of NHN?

NeonPulse - 13-6-2016 at 17:36

Potassium or Sodium hydroxide will also work but keep the solution very cold and protect it from air.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-6-2016 at 02:05

Of course, Hairy Balls exist: ...........:cool:

Hairy balls.jpg - 42kB

PHILOU Zrealone - 14-6-2016 at 10:40

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Of course, Hairy Balls exist: ...........:cool:


Cheesy balls ;):D:P the new sem(sex)tex...

James Ikanov - 20-6-2016 at 06:16

Supposing that I felt the need to do something exceptionally stupid and make guanidine nitrate via the process described here:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4390726

IE, mixing it in a 1:3 ratio and melting it in the presence of silicic oxide, is there anything this patent DOESN'T mention?

Better yet, is there a method of using all this to make the nitrate without the inherent explosion risk of molten ammonium nitrate? It sounds like a very interesting way to work towards a lot of the safer guanidine primary/secondary explosives... :)

PHILOU Zrealone - 20-6-2016 at 06:40

Quote: Originally posted by James Ikanov  
Supposing that I felt the need to do something exceptionally stupid and make guanidine nitrate via the process described here:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4390726

IE, mixing it in a 1:3 ratio and melting it in the presence of silicic oxide, is there anything this patent DOESN'T mention?

Better yet, is there a method of using all this to make the nitrate without the inherent explosion risk of molten ammonium nitrate? It sounds like a very interesting way to work towards a lot of the safer guanidine primary/secondary explosives... :)

Did you really searched into the forum?
Compilation: Synthetic routes to tetrazole compounds based on OTC materials. by Engager...


Edit...
Oh yeah 1975 posts, my favourite year!

[Edited on 20-6-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

nitro-genes - 24-6-2016 at 13:53

How would an azide mediated curtius rearrangement on a carboxyl group behave with two orho nitrogroup present on a benzene ring, for example 2,4,6 trinitrobenzoic acid? Just decarboxylation?

Seems Legit

Armistice19 - 25-6-2016 at 07:38

I met an older man not too long ago who claimed to be some kind of explosives expert of sorts for the U.S. military. He was very vague in his story telling, and obviously attempting not to give too many details. He may have been legitimate, but who knows. I believe you should never trust any single individuals word alone, especially when you consider that some civilians enjoy lying about being veterans for personal benefits. Either way, he told me an interesting improvised safety technique that he said he was taught to use during his time in service. It seemed theoretically sound, but not necessarily effective if ever actually applied. I was curious to hear some of the other forum members thoughts on the technique. Would it be effective? Or perhaps it's just an emergency option, and is simply better than taking no precautions at all?

Here goes:

When working with energetic materials that were static sensitive, he said that (in order to properly ground out) one could hammer a piece of rebar deep into the ground, and then pour salt water down the rebar so as to properly soak the earth that it penetrated. He would then say that at this point one could wrap copper wire around their wrist, and then wrap the other end of the wire to the rebar.

My basic question here is, if this were to be actually applied, would it really actually keep you relatively safe from static discharge/accidental detonation?

Thoughts? comments?


NedsHead - 25-6-2016 at 08:03

I think it should keep you safe, provided you are wearing clothing made from natural fibres that won't produce any unwanted static, it sounds safe to me. when I was handling ANFO explosives in an underground mine we would just put a knee on the ground and that was good enough

Geocachmaster - 25-6-2016 at 10:52

The rebar in ground with salt solution should be an effective grounding rod. If you did use it, I'd recommend a more sure connection of the wire to the rod, rather than just wrapping it around the bar. Also, you should test the continuity between yourself and the rod, so there isn't a false sense of security and you know it actually works.

PHILOU Zrealone - 25-6-2016 at 15:40

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  
How would an azide mediated curtius rearrangement on a carboxyl group behave with two orho nitrogroup present on a benzene ring, for example 2,4,6 trinitrobenzoic acid? Just decarboxylation?

Normally it should work as usual thus leading to the TNA isocyanate (via TNBenzoic chloride and NaN3)
(O2N)3C6H2-CO-N3 -heat-> (O2N)3C6H2-N=C=O + N2(g)
Then after hydrolysis TNAniline
(O2N)3C6H2-N=C=O + 2 H2O --> (O2N)3C6H2-NH2 +(HO)2C=O (= CO2(g) + H2O)

Decarboxylation will naturally occur if you heat TNBenzoic acid at 100°C --> TNBenzene

For example this may happen in part while heating TNBenzoic acid with HN3

Bert - 26-6-2016 at 15:25

You want to DISSIPATE any charge slowly, rather than by dumping it is a big fat apark... So how about a nice big resistor in the circuit between your body and the ground point?

Aurium - 29-6-2016 at 10:24

Molecular sieves in Nitration?

Quick question from someone with little chemistry education.

"3A" Molecular sieves are often used to easily remove water from solvents.
Water contamination is what limits nitration Acid/Product ratio.

I wonder if Molecular sieves can be used to keep an H2SO4+HNO3 nitration mixture free from the water generated in the process of nitration.
Or just to remove water from 70% HNO3 to bring it up to fuming HNO3.

Why is this not possible?
Surely there is something I am missing here about the behavior of molecular sieves.

A quick google search reveals no answer to my questions.

Thanks for your answer!


PHILOU Zrealone - 30-6-2016 at 13:10

Quote: Originally posted by Aurium  
Molecular sieves in Nitration?

Quick question from someone with little chemistry education.

"3A" Molecular sieves are often used to easily remove water from solvents.
Water contamination is what limits nitration Acid/Product ratio.

I wonder if Molecular sieves can be used to keep an H2SO4+HNO3 nitration mixture free from the water generated in the process of nitration.
Or just to remove water from 70% HNO3 to bring it up to fuming HNO3.

Why is this not possible?
Surely there is something I am missing here about the behavior of molecular sieves.

A quick google search reveals no answer to my questions.

Thanks for your answer!


MS may be used to take the water away and favourize/help nitration...there is a paper about HNO3/propionic anhydride and MS used to acheive 98% dinitrotoluen...but I wonder what would be the difference with a little more HNO3/PA alone...

MS has the advantage of being solid and easily recovered by filtration and eventually recycled by heating.

I think that if you use granules of MS to dehydrate HNO3 or to help with nitration, it has to be a silica based one, not a carbon based because it would otherwise oxydise.

When adding silica gel beads (a type of MS) into water they crack and are reduced into tinier silica pieces like sand...I guess the same if not worst will occur with HNO3...at least it won't dissolve. So the beads shape will more likely be lost quite fast.

MS is used to dehydrate solvents but ones that doesn't contain too much or a lot of water...absorption ability is in the range of 13-17% water by weight...
This means that to dehydrate efficiently 100g 69% HNO3 (=70.92 ml because d=1.410) you would need at least 200g MS...and this may be impractically high...or not I don't know.

If you do the testing, I'm curious to read the results.


[Edited on 30-6-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Aurium - 30-6-2016 at 18:00

I can't get any google information on the behavior of MS in acid, and I don't have access to all the online journals. ( I do, but holy hell 50euros for a pdf betting on good info. )

Hum I get this feeling that somehow the charge of the positive acid outside vs the neutral water inside will limit the further diffusion of water inside the beads, to the point of the MS being useless.

Worth a test anyway.
I'll use the silica based MS you recommend and try dehydrating 70% HNO3. If I succeed I'll try making ETN with MS swirling about.

I'm away from my lab ATM but I'll let you know the results in a month or something when I get the chance to test this.

[Edited on 1-7-2016 by Aurium]

PHILOU Zrealone - 1-7-2016 at 04:29

OK for the HNO3 concentration...maybe opt for cold distillation under vaccuum to recover as much HNO3 from the solid slurry of MS beads.

I would avoid too sensitive HE material (to shock, heat or friction) "with Molecular Sieves swirling about".
Friction between solid "sand" particles may give troubles in that case.

Edit:
Yeah 2016 posts :P:cool:

[Edited on 1-7-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

tandpasta - 6-7-2016 at 15:29

I don't think this is really a 'energetic materials' question, but I figured you guys would know best about this kind of stuff:

I frequently make camp fires and I was wondering about if there are any cheap ways of making colored flames for an extended amount of time. But it has to stay 'safe', i.e. not more unsafe than a regular campfire. So no toxic combustion products, risk of spattering, etc. Ideally something that lasts for say an hour and could make the flames different colors over time.

Any ideas?

PHILOU Zrealone - 7-7-2016 at 10:41

Quote: Originally posted by tandpasta  
I don't think this is really a 'energetic materials' question, but I figured you guys would know best about this kind of stuff:

I frequently make camp fires and I was wondering about if there are any cheap ways of making colored flames for an extended amount of time. But it has to stay 'safe', i.e. not more unsafe than a regular campfire. So no toxic combustion products, risk of spattering, etc. Ideally something that lasts for say an hour and could make the flames different colors over time.

Any ideas?

The main problem is sodium (always present in trees, thus in natural wood) and carbon (also present by definition) that makes yellow, orange flames and hide the usual colourizers...so colour expression will be bad even with hurge quantities...

You may get partial green flames if you throw an electric wire into the fire with its PVC coating...while burning the PVC sets HCl free then react with Cu/CuO to make CuCl2 and CuCl (this last responsible of the blue colour...and blue+yellow = green).
But to get noticeable effect you need a lot of wire --> toxic fumes and HCl :(

You could get much better effects by playing with cotton-cellulose whool soaked a few times into KCl then into demi water (to wash the Na(+) away) then into aceton (to take the water away) and then into ethanol (burn-alcohol) or methanol.
The alcohol (ethanol or methanol) must be saturated with the colouriser salt/stuf and set into a heat resistant recipient (glazed ceramic is best):
Put a lot of the prepared cotton into it and use it as a fuse...
-CaCl2 --> orange-pink
-SrCl2 --> red
-CuCl2 -->electric blue-green
-LiCl --> deep red
-Trimethyl borate ester --> green
-Ba(OH)2+ BaCl2 --> pale green

This will last from 5 minutes to 30 minutes depending on the recipient shape, quantity of alcohol and surface of the burning fuse...

Once exhausted and flame off, replenish with clean fuel.
Beware that alcohol flame may be present but nearly invisible...so be sure it is off before adding the flamable fuel...otherwise your bottle may take fire.

Not for kids without adult advice or care!


[Edited on 7-7-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Highly energetic nitramines

Lotilko - 11-7-2016 at 05:45

I was reading about furazans and furoxans and I found this document. It's sadly in chinese, but it gives the densities and detonation velocities of some highly energetic nitramines. I am primarily interested in HHTTD and compound 3, which appears to have a extremely high VOD and density. Could it outperform ONC, or is this about theroretical preparation of these materials? I know the flourine atoms cause the high density, but also there is no oxygen in the molecule. Maybe the lack of oxgen inhibits the formation of COF2, which would be a loss of fluorine so instead, HF forms which has a relatively low mass. What are your thoughts on this? Sorry if there are any mistakes or errors, this is my first post and english is not my first language. Any help will be appreciated, thanks.

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PHILOU Zrealone - 11-7-2016 at 12:39

Quote: Originally posted by Lotilko  
I was reading about furazans and furoxans and I found this document. It's sadly in chinese, but it gives the densities and detonation velocities of some highly energetic nitramines. I am primarily interested in HHTTD and compound 3, which appears to have a extremely high VOD and density. Could it outperform ONC, or is this about theroretical preparation of these materials? I know the flourine atoms cause the high density, but also there is no oxygen in the molecule. Maybe the lack of oxgen inhibits the formation of COF2, which would be a loss of fluorine so instead, HF forms which has a relatively low mass. What are your thoughts on this? Sorry if there are any mistakes or errors, this is my first post and english is not my first language. Any help will be appreciated, thanks.


Looks like some of the chemical pathways are purely theorical...or practically impossible (like joining a second cyclo penta-ring from a dibromo compound itself generated by addition of Br2 onto a cyclopentene what is known to happen in trans addition (thus both Br atoms are not on the same side of the pentaring plane...)).

Some pathways with the yields aside are plausible and probably inspired from related internationnal litterature.

Like many writing, the densities and VOD are exagerated or based mainly on thermodynamic calculations (much cheaper than actual testing and measurements whitout the need to synthetise much material (testing may require a kilogram))...this effect is sadly true for all big HEM lab...like Klapote's...
Now most follow the rule: "Publish or perish"...so quality of the work is less because they focus on the quantity.

SIDE NOTE:

Lately I have noticed that Klapote's team had made a mistake in most of their publications....they based their detonic calculations onto the density of the molecule at the X-ray diffraction temperature (-100°C) what is not the normal use T°.

In fact by using the density at -100°C you overestimate the density vs at 20°C and all related detonics parameters are thus much higher and looks sensational/promising...

Now since past year they have applied an automatic correction based on dillatation coefficient in a way to extrapolate the density of the crystals from -100°C to the standard temperature... this might look a good idea to reduce the biased density value since contraction or dillatation may be considered linear into a 100°C range (or more for certain compounds).

But it is not a good idea because:
1°) They use a single dillatation coefficient...while each compound and each specific crystaline form has a specific coefficient (sometimes dependant on the axis ... thus anisotropic)
2°) Most compounds tends to srink and increase their density while cooling but it is not always the case!
3°) Some compounds change crystalline form by passing from -100°C to 20°C and this will affect the dillatation coefficient that may change dramatically or even change sign (thus instead of srinkage you get dillatation)

So their calculation are purely indicative and quite uncertain.


About your fluorinated compound n°3, you said that there is no oxygen but you missed the point that it is only the amine skeletton on what you perform the nitration to get a nitramine...and nitramine by definition is -N(-NO2)- and so it does contain 2 oxygen atoms!
Also perfluoromethyl (CF3-) would be as bad as teflon thus unreactive and inert...(except maybe with very reactive/reductive metals (Na, K, Li, Mg, Al) with what it does make kind of thermites if well divised and homogeneously/intimately mixed)

You obviously confused difluoroamine energetic group (-NF2) which like related dihaloamino group (-NCl2, =N-Cl, -NBr2, =N-Br) in hydrocarbon skeletton are energetic owing to the easy release of halogen and combination with the hydrogen as HF, HCl or HBr providing the driving force of the energetic decomposition...the remaining C usually stays behind...as a black smoky cloud.

[Edited on 11-7-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Lotilko - 11-7-2016 at 13:02

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Quote: Originally posted by Lotilko  
I was reading about furazans and furoxans and I found this document. It's sadly in chinese, but it gives the densities and detonation velocities of some highly energetic nitramines. I am primarily interested in HHTTD and compound 3, which appears to have a extremely high VOD and density. Could it outperform ONC, or is this about theroretical preparation of these materials? I know the flourine atoms cause the high density, but also there is no oxygen in the molecule. Maybe the lack of oxgen inhibits the formation of COF2, which would be a loss of fluorine so instead, HF forms which has a relatively low mass. What are your thoughts on this? Sorry if there are any mistakes or errors, this is my first post and english is not my first language. Any help will be appreciated, thanks.


Looks like some of the chemical pathways are purely theorical...or practically impossible (like joining a second cyclo penta-ring from a dibromo compound itself generated by addition of Br2 onto a cyclopentene what is known to happen in trans addition (thus both Br atoms are not on the same side of the pentaring plane...)).

Some pathways with the yields aside are plausible and probably inspired from related internationnal litterature.

Like many writing, the densities and VOD are exagerated or based mainly on thermodynamic calculations (much cheaper than actual testing and measurements whitout the need to synthetise much material (testing may require a kilogram))...this effect is sadly true for all big HEM lab...like Klapote's...
Now most follow the rule: "Publish or perish"...so quality of the work is less because they focus on the quantity.

SIDE NOTE:

Lately I have noticed that Klapote's team had made a mistake in most of their publications....they based their detonic calculations onto the density of the molecule at the X-ray diffraction temperature (-100°C) what is not the normal use T°.

In fact by using the density at -100°C you overestimate the density vs at 20°C and all related detonics parameters are thus much higher and looks sensational/promising...

Now since past year they have applied an automatic correction based on dillatation coefficient in a way to extrapolate the density of the crystals from -100°C to the standard temperature... this might look a good idea to reduce the biased density value since contraction or dillatation may be considered linear into a 100°C range (or more for certain compounds).

But it is not a good idea because:
1°) They use a single dillatation coefficient...while each compound and each specific crystaline form has a specific coefficient (sometimes dependant on the axis ... thus anisotropic)
2°) Most compounds tends to srink and increase their density while cooling but it is not always the case!
3°) Some compounds change crystalline form by passing from -100°C to 20°C and this will affect the dillatation coefficient that may change dramatically or even change sign (thus instead of srinkage you get dillatation)

So their calculation are purely indicative and quite uncertain.


About your fluorinated compound n°3, you said that there is no oxygen but you missed the point that it is only the amine skeletton on what you perform the nitration to get a nitramine...and nitramine by definition is -N(-NO2)- and so it does contain 2 oxygen atoms!
Also perfluoromethyl (CF3-) would be as bad as teflon thus unreactive and inert...(except maybe with very reactive/reductive metals (Na, K, Li, Mg, Al) with what it does make kind of thermites if well divised and homogeneously/intimately mixed)

You obviously confused difluoroamine energetic group (-NF2) which like related dihaloamino group (-NCl2, =N-Cl, -NBr2, =N-Br) in hydrocarbon skeletton are energetic owing to the easy release of halogen and combination with the hydrogen as HF, HCl or HBr générâtes the driving force of the energetic decomposition...the remaining C usually stays behind...

[Edited on 11-7-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]


Thanks for clearing that up, PH Z. :)

kratomiter - 19-7-2016 at 05:42

Hi!

I'm trying to get pure ammonium nitrate from an instant cold pack which contains calcium ammonium nitrate (CAN). Tha chalck was easily filtered, but it also contains a wax coating and I don't know how to get rid of it. With hexane or similars maybe?

Bert - 20-7-2016 at 09:34

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sciencemadness.org+ammonium+nitrate+Cal...

kratomiter - 21-7-2016 at 07:43

Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sciencemadness.org+ammonium+nitrate+Cal...


That doesn't solve very much... The calcium was not an issue.
But I didn't found any way to isolate AN from the wax (in fact guar gum or any similar hydrosoluble polymer, not actual wax). Guar gum concentration is lower than 2% AFAIK, maybe it could be used as an ANFO-like explosive.
Anyway, if I found something useful I'll post results.

Ammonium nitrate + metal powder: is this going to react

dangerous amateur - 28-7-2016 at 11:06

Hi guys,

in pyrotechnics evrybody knows that for example potassium nitrate and aluminium or magnesium powder can be a dangerous combination, in presence of moisture this can heat up to the point of self ignition


I wonder how ammonium nitrate would react under these conditions. Or rather if it should react at all.

Zinc powder will react, thats for sure. But I combined moist ammonium nitrate and fine aluminium several times now and I never had problems.

hissingnoise - 28-7-2016 at 11:18

Ammonal was an older explosive consisting primarily of NH4NO3 and Al powder ─ requiring a booster for its detonation!


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