Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Short question / quick answer - Thread

It is the first time that i hear that the density of liquid change with pressure...the volume of liquid will increase with increasing temperature (so density drops). water is an exception because it has a negative thermal expansion coefficient, it will contract upon heating...what will change with altitude is the boiling temperature of the liquid because the ambient pressure decreases with altitude. However, the bulk density will remain unchanged.

These claims PHILOU(density of liquid drops with decreasing the pressure) need to be backed up with a new theorem...

Dany.

[Edited on 17-6-2014 by Dany]

Dany,
I don't know what is your education level, experience, work or fields of specialities... but I think your studies are far away and maybe you didn't got physical chemistry and thermodynamic?
Maybe you are not familiar with the isothermic p(V) curves the diagram of gas-liquid near the critical point explaining the perfect gas laws and the variation with real gas showing distillation plates (during liquefaction of gas, the pressure remains constant). I'll put you a picture.

Water has also a positive thermal expansion coefficient...it only display a singularity between 4 and 0°C!At ambiant pressure, between 4 and over 4000°C it dillates; between -270 and 0°C also ice dillates!

If liquids were uncompressible, why would sound travel through?

[Edited on 18-6-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Dany - 18-6-2014 at 05:33

PHILOU my friend, i didn't tell you that liquids are incompressible. liquids are compressible, even solid are compressible but to a much lesser extent. The propagation of sound in liquid compresses and decompress successively the liquid, however the compression is infinitesimally small to make a density variation in liquid (or solids). However, under high dynamic shock wave liquid and solid will be compressed to a smaller volume. this is obvious from the unreacted Hugoniot diagram (the P-V diagram). This phenomena is observed under several GPa of dynamic pressure. For example liquid TNT has a density of ρ= 1.473 g/cm³ at ambient pressure. A shock wave entering the liquid with an amplitude of P=10.855 GPa (approx. 109 kbar) will compress the liquid TNT to a density of 2.259 g/cm³ [1]. of course the P-V diagram for the liquid TNT is called the unreacted liquid TNT, so no detonation is observed (the density of 2.259 g/cm³ do not correspond to the density at the Chapman-Jouguet point because as is already told, it is the unreacted Hugoniot). Your example of density change between sea level and the mountain peak is meaningless. Btw, you are telling me that at ambient pressure the water will dilate between 4 and over 4000°C, the question: is water still a liquid at these temperature

Reference

[1] LASL SHOCK HUGONIOT DATA, LOS ALAMOS SERIES ON DYNAMIC MATERIAL PROPERTIES.

[Edited on 18-6-2014 by Dany]

arkoma - 18-6-2014 at 13:59

Quick question:

Eloctrocell bumping 5volts, max amps with MgCl2 electrolyte. Mg(ClO3)2 expected product? NO Mg(OH)2 evident.

jock88 - 18-6-2014 at 15:16

Try this

http://oxidizing.typhoonguitars.com/chlorate/mag_chlorate.ht...

arkoma - 18-6-2014 at 15:43

Thanx, jock88! I came up on a bunch of Mg Chloride yesterday (ice melt) and just HATE not seeing my cell do SOMETHING LOL.

Testing of EM's

Stortulling - 26-6-2014 at 15:16

Hi

I started with EM's again, but have moved away from no mans land and has therefore gained a new problem. Sound! How can I best test the EM's in a good scientific manner and keep the volume as low as possible. It will be a little expensive if I should ruin a bucket for each detonator I'll test. I do not have any water / lake within acceptable distance apart from the sea. It is too much traffic on the sea in my area so it is excluded. Testing of larger charges such as shape charge, the sound will become a big problem.

What can I do?

Turner - 26-6-2014 at 16:10

Do your tests in heavy thunder/rain storm.

NeonPulse - 27-6-2014 at 01:37

If th have an area where you want to test maybe you could look into hiring a post hole borer machine and do testing in there. These machines can dig nice deep perfectly round holes and a few of them placed close to eachother and linked up by a shovel would make an ideal test site for smaller charges muffling the doing to a level it may not even be noticed. The problem of cave ins and retrieving of your target could pose problems though.. tests for detonators could be done in a smaller hole filled with sand-saving your buckets. Otherwise the storms/heavy rain is the only other option. Or pick a day for all your tests and drive out to where nobody will hear and blast away.

How Crystal Surface Area and Geometry affect Explosive Qualities

SirViking - 1-7-2014 at 08:07

To what extent will the recrystallization processes affect explosive materials such as PETN. I have conducted various experiments, altering variables such as the water to acetone/PETN ratio,as well as temperature and the rate at which water is introduced to the solution.

For example, by lowering the temperature of the acetone/PETN solution and the water to just above 0 C prior to the introduction of water to the solution, I have found crystals to be formed with very high surface area.

I am curious as to what other processes you guys have used to recrystallize energetic materials, and what effect the crystal shape, surface area, and geometry had on any tests you conducted.

Thanatops1s - 2-7-2014 at 20:42

Yes, I tried searching but still have a quick question. Unlike say organic peroxides, if someone had some well washed and totally acid-free and recrystallized ETN, it there any risk with it sitting on its own in a sub-gram quantity(say 750mg tops)? Would maybe having it wet be better(I assume most likely)?

ETN synth.

Stortulling - 3-7-2014 at 04:02

Hi again ..
I wonder if there is a synthesis of ETN without sulfuric acid? I have phosphorus pentoxide ( P₂O₅ ), and wonder if it can be used as a substitute for SA.?

Thanks for the suggestions on the testing of EM's, it appears that it is best to build a mini bunker which is about 1.5x1.5x1.5 meters into a hillside some distance away from buildings and trails.

VladimirLem - 3-7-2014 at 09:07

Quote: Originally posted by Stortulling

Hi again ..
I wonder if there is a synthesis of ETN without sulfuric acid? I have phosphorus pentoxide ( P₂O₅ ), and wonder if it can be used as a substitute for SA.?

it will, im pretty sure

but be careful...i have no expierince with P2O5 but it seems to be very aggressive to water (like contained in HNO3)...

Stortulling - 3-7-2014 at 13:48

Quote: Originally posted by Stortulling

Hi again ..
I wonder if there is a synthesis of ETN without sulfuric acid? I have phosphorus pentoxide ( P₂O₅ ), and wonder if it can be used as a substitute for SA.?

it will, im pretty sure

but be careful...i have no expierince with P2O5 but it seems to be very aggressive to water (like contained in HNO3)...

That was my "guess", but I have not done any synth. myselfe with P₂O₅ yet. I guess that it might be possible with Ac₂O allso, or am i wrong? I've not read up on that kind of synth either, but from what i understand it should be possible.. I haven't found any synth on ETN this way, probably due to that H₂SO₄ is the "simple" way.. But since it is hard to get SA where i live ( if you don't count used battery acid) other synth's are interesting to look at. Can someone point me in the right direction please. (Refs or literature)

Thanks

[Edited on 4-7-2014 by Stortulling]

Motherload - 3-7-2014 at 20:54

It seems like such a waste of P2O5. It's impossible for me to buy it here in Canada.
I cannot see any reasons why it wouldn't work.
Someone here used 70% HNO3 and P2O5 for RDX synth.

[Edited on 4-7-2014 by Motherload]

PHILOU Zrealone - 4-7-2014 at 08:24

In principe erythritol ca be halogenated to 1,2,3,4-tetrachlorobutane or 1,2,3,4-tetrabromobutane.
The later compounds can be reacted with excess saturated AgNO3 in aceton or methanol (not ethanol because of the risk of formation of silver fulminate).
This test is usually used for the identification of organo-halogenoalcanes.
Primary alcohols reacts faster than secondary ones!

HOCH2-CHOH-CHOH-CH2OH + 4 HX ==ZnX2/heat==> XCH2-CHX-CHX-CH2X + 4H2O
(X being Cl or Br)
XCH2-CHX-CHX-CH2X + 4 AgONO2 --> O2NOCH2-CHONO2-CHONO2-CH2ONO2 + 4 AgX (s)
The AgX is a precipitate that can be decomposed by light for recovery of the silver and recycling with HNO3; the halogen can also be recovered.
2 AgX(s) -light-> 2 Ag(s) + X2 (g)

The adaptation of this procedure to iodo compounds is not possible because geminal iodocompounds tends to spontaneously deiodinate and produce alcenes...
ICH2-CHI-CH2I ==> ICH2-CH=CH2 + I2

Is PETN recrystallization mandatory?

aldofad - 5-7-2014 at 08:57

Hello world,
Is PETN recrystallization a mandatory step?
The batch will be used in a couple of days after preparation.

Thanks in advance
Aldo

VladimirLem - 5-7-2014 at 10:01

Quote: Originally posted by aldofad

Hello world,
Is PETN recrystallization a mandatory step?
The batch will be used in a couple of days after preparation.

Thanks in advance
Aldo

if you want to use it the next days there will be no problem if it is neutral (acid washed away)...i had some small unrecr. amount for years with no visible negative reaction to the product (~18C, dark storage)
if you want a high quality product (for shaped charge or so) it may be better to recrystilize it...

aldofad - 5-7-2014 at 13:32

Thanks for replying with such a good answer
Aldo

NeonPulse - 5-7-2014 at 13:48

The recrystallization step is pretty important imoh. It gives a nice clean product of a slightly higher density and will eliminate any undue risk to yourself just in case you do need to store it. Its not entirely needed but it is good practice. I think that if you went to the trouble of making PETN why not finish it properly. It won't take long and the time spent is worth it.you may not even notice a different between the re and non recrystallized products power wise but the handling and loading properties do differ a bit. I have just started using PETN and it is a brilliant explosive which deserves that extra bit of attention

aldofad - 5-7-2014 at 16:18

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse

The recrystallization step is pretty important imoh. It gives a nice clean product of a slightly higher density and will eliminate any undue risk to yourself just in case you do need to store it. Its not entirely needed but it is good practice. I think that if you went to the trouble of making PETN why not finish it properly. It won't take long and the time spent is worth it.you may not even notice a different between the re and non recrystallized products power wise but the handling and loading properties do differ a bit. I have just started using PETN and it is a brilliant explosive which deserves that extra bit of attention

I'm now waiting for PETN to dry after nitration and washing. Thanks for your opinion. I'll go through recrystallization so.

Motherload - 5-7-2014 at 20:16

If you used mixed acids then I would definitely recrystalize.
My recrystalized product has been odour free for almost 2 years now along with my ETN.

Thanatops1s - 5-7-2014 at 21:58

In attempting a DDNP synthesis, everything seemed to proceed as it seems to right up until the diazotization. After adding the initial H2SO4 it turned brownish(only took a small amount too). After adding NaNO2 solution I did notice a darker brown precipitate how after filtering, the precipitate was basically absorbed and became inseparable from the filter paper other than a miniscule amount.

I have saved all filtrates and precipitates just in case anything is salvageable.

[Edited on 7-6-2014 by Thanatops1s]

making pentaerythrite

underground - 5-7-2014 at 22:27

It is said that the pentaerythrite is the reaction product of four mole weights of formaldehyde
and one mole weight of acetaldehyde. How much easy and possible to make some is from a home chemist ? As everybody know, pentaerythrite is difficult to buy.

VladimirLem - 6-7-2014 at 01:39

Quote: Originally posted by Motherload

If you used mixed acids then I would definitely recrystalize.

I agree...the PETN i got from mixed acids was full of low-/undernitrated material and after the recrystalisation it where fine pure needle-like crystals that where easy to compless to a good density...PETN made this "pure" HNO3 seems to containvery little amounts of low-/undernitrated material and has an completely different cystal structure...maybe the PETN from mixed acids is just the TRI-nitrate? i dont know...

VladimirLem - 6-7-2014 at 01:44

It is said that the pentaerythrite is the reaction product of four mole weights of formaldehyde
and one mole weight of acetaldehyde. How much easy and possible to make some is from a home chemist ? As everybody know, pentaerythrite is difficult to buy.

seems to be "a bit" difficult

*file added*

if it would be easy enough i wouldnt use any other high performace explosive...PETN just rocks (high yields, good performace, easy to handle and so on...)

Attachment: PE-Synthese.txt (2kB)
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underground - 6-7-2014 at 09:39

seems to be "a bit" difficult

*file added*

if it would be easy enough i wouldnt use any other high performace explosive...PETN just rocks (high yields, good performace, easy to handle and so on...)

Yes that is true. i believe it is not worth of making RDX as long as there is PETN in the game.

aldofad - 6-7-2014 at 21:23

Yes, I used H2SO4 to reduce water in HNO3. I'll recrystallize so

markx - 6-7-2014 at 23:42

Quote: Originally posted by Motherload

If you used mixed acids then I would definitely recrystalize.

As far as I know the trinitrate and lower analogues are more or less water soluble and therefore removed to a considerable amount by washing and recristallisation solutions. Although I have not found direct references to the exact solubility of trinitrate in water....

Literature gives strong evidence on the (partial) formation of the trinitrate in mixed acid nitration systems though:

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aldofad - 7-7-2014 at 01:59

I add a very personal question to this discussion, even the PETN formed from a not complete trinitration will be soluble in acetone and then crystallized, isnt'it?

markx - 7-7-2014 at 05:05

Quote: Originally posted by aldofad

I add a very personal question to this discussion, even the PETN formed from a not complete trinitration will be soluble in acetone and then crystallized, isnt'it?

Yes, of course. In case of lower nitrated byproducts you should just observe a loss in yield upon recristallisation (the lower nitrated "contaminants" left in solution).

Here's a quite informative article regarding pentaerythritol nitration in mixed acid systems:

Attachment: Nitration of pentaerythritol by HNO3-H2SO4-H2O system .pdf (1.2MB)
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SirViking - 7-7-2014 at 05:44

In my experience, you should definitely recrystallize your PETN prior to use. Recrystallization will help to filter out any impurities and, depending on your recrystallization process, produce needle-like crystals of high surface area which can affect the detonation qualities of the HE.

[Edited on 7-7-2014 by SirViking]

dextrinated silver acetylide/nitrate?

Vpatent357 - 10-7-2014 at 13:57

Hello!
What do you think of produce SA.DS like LA by adding dextrin to acidic solution of AgNO3? before bubbling
This can make it less sensitive because SA.DS will form small crystals, bad idea?

I also consider reducing the static sensitivity by adding 1% microfine Graphite powder or 1% Conductive Carbon black...

what methods do you use?

Turner - 10-7-2014 at 14:27

Dextrin is not necessary in making SADS because you won't be getting large enough crystals to be of any concern. You will have a powdery substance when dried. Not to mention SADS has lower impact and friction sensitivity than LA so it is even less of an issue.

SirViking - 10-7-2014 at 14:47

What is the necessary water to acetone/RDX solution ratio required to recrystallize RDX?

Turner - 10-7-2014 at 15:28

Try adding roughly 3-4 times the volume of cold water to the solution.

Turner - 10-7-2014 at 15:45

Try adding roughly 3-4 times the volume of cold water to the solution.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 11-7-2014 at 15:10

Has anyone thought of the structure N(NH2)2NO2 ?

What I am trying to present is similar to N(NO2)3 but with 2 NO2 becoming NH2.

Brain&Force - 11-7-2014 at 15:57

Diaminonitramide? Can't find any references to it.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 14-7-2014 at 19:18

Is it alright to assume if for example, nitroguanidine exist, so most likely will nitrotetrazole?

or maybe dinitrourea, so dinitrotetrazolone?

VladimirLem - 15-7-2014 at 07:37

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

Is it alright to assume if for example, nitroguanidine exist, so most likely will nitrotetrazole?

or maybe dinitrourea, so dinitrotetrazolone?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nitrotetrazole
but i couldnt find results for dinitrotetrazolone...

i have not much knowledge of chemistry, but often things you wrote arent that logical in real life^^

example: Hexamine->Mono/Dinitrate->"Nitro"compound....how on earth make this sense lol

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 15-7-2014 at 10:53

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

Is it alright to assume if for example, nitroguanidine exist, so most likely will nitrotetrazole?

or maybe dinitrourea, so dinitrotetrazolone?

I obviously know nitrotetrazole exists, that was an example as an analogy to nitroguanidine.

Since R-NCO + R-N3 > 1,4 R tetrazolone, NaN3 + NO2SbF6 > NO2N3
and, AgOCN(s) + ClNO2 > AgCl + OCNNO2, OCNNO2 and NO2N3 could probably form dinitrotetrazolone although I really doubt it since the nitro group usually prevent the tetrazole ring forming.

Bert - 15-7-2014 at 17:27

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

Is it alright to assume if for example, nitroguanidine exist, so most likely will nitrotetrazole?

or maybe dinitrourea, so dinitrotetrazolone?

DubaiAmateurRocketry is an account used by several different people-

Some of whom are more knowledgable than others. As I never know what knowledge level (and hence appropriate depth of an answer) is waiting to receive on the other end of this, I've given up on answering their questions at all.

PM'd suggestions they obtain individual accounts were blown off.

PHILOU Zrealone - 26-7-2014 at 12:31

PHILOU my friend, i didn't tell you that liquids are incompressible. liquids are compressible, even solid are compressible but to a much lesser extent. The propagation of sound in liquid compresses and decompress successively the liquid, however the compression is infinitesimally small to make a density variation in liquid (or solids). However, under high dynamic shock wave liquid and solid will be compressed to a smaller volume. this is obvious from the unreacted Hugoniot diagram (the P-V diagram). This phenomena is observed under several GPa of dynamic pressure. For example liquid TNT has a density of ρ= 1.473 g/cm³ at ambient pressure. A shock wave entering the liquid with an amplitude of P=10.855 GPa (approx. 109 kbar) will compress the liquid TNT to a density of 2.259 g/cm³ [1]. of course the P-V diagram for the liquid TNT is called the unreacted liquid TNT, so no detonation is observed (the density of 2.259 g/cm³ do not correspond to the density at the Chapman-Jouguet point because as is already told, it is the unreacted Hugoniot). Your example of density change between sea level and the mountain peak is meaningless. Btw, you are telling me that at ambient pressure the water will dilate between 4 and over 4000°C, the question: is water still a liquid at these temperature

Reference

[1] LASL SHOCK HUGONIOT DATA, LOS ALAMOS SERIES ON DYNAMIC MATERIAL PROPERTIES.

[Edited on 18-6-2014 by Dany]

You didn't tell that liquids are incompressible but you did wrote: "It is the first time that i hear that the density of liquid change with pressure..." what means pretty much the same

The question was if density change with altitude...not if the effect was strong or weak. True that the compressibility of gases is much bigger than the one of liquids, itself usually bigger than the one of solids.

Most liquids will expand under reduced pressure and contract under increased pressure...some will even freeze under pressure.
I'm analysing datas on that subject to give you numbers...the effect is weak but not negligible...I think it is in the order of 0.5-1%.

"Btw, you are telling me that at ambient pressure the water will dilate between 4 and over 4000°C, the question: is water still a liquid at these temperature

"
Water at ambiant pressure turns into a gas above 100°C, between 100°C and 1800°C it remains molecular, but above it starts to decompose into its elements...so water dropped onto a white heated 2000°C metallic plate will explode in a flash due to overheating of water, decomposition into H2 and O2 and recombination into H2O. The H2O gas and later the H2 and O2 gases will continue to expand with heating.

Here follows a typical diagram of density of a substance as a function of T°. The example is TCM (tetrachloromethane) at ambiant pressure wich display a fusion T° of -23°C and a boiling T° of 76.7°C; you can see that at the melting point there is a gap of density; but that at the boiling point the volume variation is almost continuous.

[img]http://[/img]

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[Edited on 26-7-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]

PHILOU Zrealone - 26-7-2014 at 12:53

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

Here is the picture from Paul Arnaud's book: Cours de chimie physique.

p184: Isothermic curves pressure-volume.

You clearly see on the isotherms below the critical point that volume variation as a function of the pressure is high on the right side of the liquefaction plate; but on the left side volume variation is less as a function of the pressure but stil present.

Here is attached a document of the study of 18 liquids as a function of pressure and T° that clearly shows that density of liquids is not only temperature dependant but also pressure dependant.
Attachment: The volume of 18 liquids as a function of p and T-Large.pdf (3.2MB)
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[Edited on 26-7-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Dany - 26-7-2014 at 13:58

Thank you Philou for posting the textbook of P.W. Bridgman which back up which i post in my previous comment that the pressure of liquid change under very high pressure. for example you can see (in the bridgman book) that at a given temperature the volume of liquid change very little even at 500-1000 bar range. So let's back to the original story of liquid density variation with altitude...the rapid answer is that the variation is practically zero et pour ne pas oublié, merci beaucoup pour me mettre la photo que ta pris du livre d'Arnaud! Je pense que l'internet est plein de livres d'anglais (que tu peux pirater) pour copier et coller des courbes d'isothermes et autres courbes de ta première ou deuxième année universitaires

Dany.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 28-7-2014 at 07:02

AIAA Propulsion Energy 2014 conference provide live stream on the internet. Although I havent seen much talk in EM, might be useful.

http://new.livestream.com/AIAAvideo/PropEnergy2014

THE PREPARATORY MANUAL OFEXPLOSIVES

underground - 29-7-2014 at 21:51

From were can i download that book as a pdf file ? it looks interesting.

NeonPulse - 29-7-2014 at 23:54

From were can i download that book as a pdf file ? it looks interesting.

That book is pretty inaccurate and full of dangerous suggestions, it has been said that Jared Ledgard knows very little on explosives synthesis. I wouldn't trust any methods presented in this shitty book. It is discussed further in the thread called 'the worst books ever written'. still seems very professionaly put together but not very well researched.

i tried to upload it here for you but it is bigger than the 10MB allowed.
i could possibly email the PDF to you if you want to PM me an address to send it.
otherwise try scribd or 4share or another similar file sharing site or even a torrent file ,you will find it somewhere.

[Edited on 30-7-2014 by NeonPulse]

Dany - 30-7-2014 at 00:37

The Preparatory Manual of Explosives, Third Edition 2007

http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/view.php?id=231918

Dany.

underground - 30-7-2014 at 09:04

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse

NeonPulse i did not expect that it would be such an inaccurate book. !! But it is ok, never mind, something you can get from that one.

The Preparatory Manual of Explosives, Third Edition 2007

http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/view.php?id=231918

Dany.

Dany thanks, i have it now already.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 9-8-2014 at 19:54

Can someone help me find a good guide on synthesis of Aluminum hydride (AlH3) with this method ?

3LiAlH4 + AlCl3 > 4AlH3 + 3LiCl

I am sure its on the internet but I cant find it idk why, maybes its because this is a really basic synthesis? I mean.. Theres almost no one that publishes on how to make NaCl any more..

solo - 10-8-2014 at 09:41

What would the hydroxamic acid of this compound be called.....solo

2-Methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propanal

PHILOU Zrealone - 11-8-2014 at 06:04

Quote: Originally posted by solo

What would the hydroxamic acid of this compound be called.....solo

2-Methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propanal

Hi Solo,
Just to fix the ideas:
2-Methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propanal
hydroxamic acid
Angeli Rimini reaction

My guess is:
2-Methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propanoic acid hydroxamate

Why such an interest for it?
-Perfumery
-Energetic material
-Piperine or Capsaicin like derivative ?

[Edited on 11-8-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Spherodized DDNP

roXefeller - 12-8-2014 at 02:09

Does anyone have access to this DDNP article?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304389410...

Hennig Brand - 12-8-2014 at 03:42

Here you go. There are a couple other articles along the same lines as well IIRC.

Attachment: Synthesis and characterization of spherical 2-diazo-4,6-dinitrophenol (DDNP).pdf (1MB)
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Ral123 - 12-8-2014 at 07:25

Am I the only one who here who saw: somebody is trying to steal user information an the board is temporary blocked?

Nitrocellulose Blasting Cap [Help]

Vpatent357 - 12-8-2014 at 08:42

Hi,
I want to make detonators with 200-300mg silver acetylide double salts for primary (in little caps see my YT videos

)
Intended for secondary i think the nitrocellulose synthesis is more safe than ETN or PETN and easy to reach, but NC is it really stable?
So I want to know how you achieve them, I think hands pressing the NC (cotton synthesis) into a syringe by wetting with water for greater density, is it risky? and I can not pressing too hard..

I never make nitrocellulose but intends to do soon, there are specific rules to follow? I can store NC.. I heard it must be stored in water, is it true?

Thanks

roXefeller - 12-8-2014 at 13:25

Quote: Originally posted by Vpatent357

Hi,
I want to make detonators with 200-300mg silver acetylide double salts for primary (in little caps see my YT videos

Go read this thread. I'm not sure you'll have much luck with it, but either way you need to read more and ask less until you've come up to a certain level of knowledge. Nobody wants you to get hurt from spoonfeeding.

Lead azide long term stability

dangerous amateur - 15-8-2014 at 11:27

Will a lead azide based detonator "go bad" after a certain storage time?

There is lot's of WW2 ordnance in the earth of some countries and often the detonators are in a frightfully good shape.

From what i read lead azide reacts with carbon dioxide from the air - but only when wet. So i assume under dry storage conditions lead azide will store well over along time.
Did i overlook something here?

Dissolving self amalgamating tape

underground - 16-8-2014 at 02:33

I have buy some self amalgamating tape and i has trying to dissolve it into gasoline, filter it and let the gasoline to evaporate to obtain pure PIB rubber. Once i tryed, the gasoline become black-dark, so i guess it started to dissolved. But at the end the final product was something like creamy like black material at the bottom of the flask filled with gasoline. I guess it is unable to dissolve it completely... Has anyone try something like that in the past ? or has anyone found a good source of PIB for plasticizing HE ?

[Edited on 16-8-2014 by underground]

roXefeller - 16-8-2014 at 10:57

I have buy some self amalgamating tape and i has trying to dissolve it into gasoline, filter it and let the gasoline to evaporate to obtain pure PIB rubber. Once i tryed, the gasoline become black-dark, so i guess it started to dissolved. But at the end the final product was something like creamy like black material at the bottom of the flask filled with gasoline. I guess it is unable to dissolve it completely... Has anyone try something like that in the past ? or has anyone found a good source of PIB for plasticizing HE ?

[Edited on 16-8-2014 by underground]

You're english is leaving me to wonder what you did or what you didn't do. But you should try to search more as this topic has been dealt with before. Try this thread. It was one of the earliest posts I saw from quicksilver. He was pretty energetic during his time. I hope things are well.

Hennig Brand - 16-8-2014 at 11:39

This thread looks like it could be helpful to you also.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=6333

NeonPulse - 16-8-2014 at 14:41

I have buy some self amalgamating tape and i has trying to dissolve it into gasoline, filter it and let the gasoline to evaporate to obtain pure PIB rubber. Once i tryed, the gasoline become black-dark, so i guess it started to dissolved. But at the end the final product was something like creamy like busually material at the bottom of the flask filled with gasoline. I guess it is unable to dissolve it completely... Has anyone try something like that in the past ? or has anyone found a good source of PIB for plasticizing
HE ?
[Edited on 16-8-2014 by underground]

Try Bird repellent, it is polybutene which is very good with a ricinoleate. I have used this and it is great. You find it in farming supply stores in a tube to fit in a caulking gun. The plastique you can produce with this stuff has all the desirable properties you want in a plastic explosive. Rat and bug traps are also a good source but that is usually pib though.

Turner - 16-8-2014 at 14:46

I haven't ever had the best luck with HE plastics, I would always have a crumbly mess with low density, similar to damp material unless I used excessive amounts of binder (20%), in which case I would get an explosion with black smoke, even with ETN. I always made a solution of PIB in warm toluene and stirred this with crystalline explosive like ETN or RDX to make a slurry type mass, then work it with my hands till all of the toluene evaporated.

Anyone know who quicksilver was and why he quit posting??

[Edited on 16-8-2014 by Turner]

underground - 16-8-2014 at 22:45

It sounds interesting, so a bird repellant, Castrol synthetic oil and methanol you are only need to make a perfect plasticizer for HE ??

ganger631 - 16-8-2014 at 23:21

Anyone tried shockwave's composition ?

roXefeller - 17-8-2014 at 05:12

Quote: Originally posted by BertSeveral senior members did know who he was in "the world". He was a professional in the energetics field.

Sadly, he has most likely gone to the big 404 in the sky.[/rquote

It sounds interesting, so a bird repellant, Castrol synthetic oil and methanol you are only need to make a perfect plasticizer for HE ??

What is perfect? Quicksilver and neonpulse said it makes a pretty good plastic binder (because it is both plasticizer and binder, you could have PBX with only a binder but plasticizer is added to increase moldability). There are things that could be improved before you can call it perfect, like a wide range of acceptable temperature, or being energetic with explosospheres in its formulation, or getting by with 2% plastic binder instead of 10 or 20%. If it were perfect, people would have already quit weapons development since the 1960's when the material was developed and improved.

Turner, if you read his account bio page you'll see he was an older, interesting yet simple guy who disappeared without notice. People have reached out to him with no result. So we can probably assume what has come of him.

solo - 17-8-2014 at 08:53

"Why such an interest for it?
-Perfumery
-Energetic material
-Piperine or Capsaicin like derivative ?"

....... PHILOU Zrealonel

.....interested in the reduction to amine from that compound....solo

Base-mediated rearrangement of free aromatic hydroxamic acids
(ArCO–NHOH) to anilines
Yujiro Hoshino,*a Moriaki Okuno
Chem. Commun.
2009, 2281–2283 | 2281
DOI: 10.1039/b822806j

<a href="http://www.freeimagehosting.net/"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/NpmPejj.jpg" alt="Free Image Hosting"></a>

[Edited on 17-8-2014 by solo]

Attachment: phpjENd3p (605kB)
This file has been downloaded 442 times

underground - 17-8-2014 at 08:59

" What is perfect? Quicksilver and neonpulse said it makes a pretty good plastic binder (because it is both plasticizer and binder, you could have PBX with only a binder but plasticizer is added to increase moldability). There are things that could be improved before you can call it perfect, like a wide range of acceptable temperature, or being energetic with explosospheres in its formulation, or getting by with 2% plastic binder instead of 10 or 20%. If it were perfect, people would have already quit weapons development since the 1960's when the material was developed and improved. "

I will really be glad to learn what improvements can be done to this plastic binder in details. The starting materials looks very easy to found. Also the procedure is as PIB ? You are going to dissolve them into the gasoline or other solvent ?

[Edited on 17-8-2014 by underground]

Bert - 17-8-2014 at 09:35

Quote: Originally posted by Turner

Anyone know who quicksilver was and why he quit posting??

[Edited on 16-8-2014 by Turner]

Several senior members did know who he was in "the world". He was a professional in the energetics field.

Sadly, he has most likely gone to the big 404 in the sky.

underground - 17-8-2014 at 12:03

What happened to him ?

roXefeller - 17-8-2014 at 12:31

I will really be glad to learn what improvements can be done to this plastic binder in details. The starting materials looks very easy to found. Also the procedure is as PIB ? You are going to dissolve them into the gasoline or other solvent ?

[Edited on 17-8-2014 by underground]

We've probably had enough spoonfeeding on this for now. It might be best for you to research a little and understand everything we've provided.

ganger631 - 18-8-2014 at 10:41

Yesterday, i tried making some nitrocellulose. After completing the nitration, i left the cotton to dry. After drying i set some off and they burn like regular cotton. What did i do wrong here? I washed the cotton twice with distilled water and then used alot of baking soda to remove any remaining acid.

TheChemiKid - 18-8-2014 at 10:49

Can you describe the nitration, and the amounts you used?

ganger631 - 18-8-2014 at 10:50

13 ml 67 nitric acid and 18ml 95-98 conc sulfuric acid
i left it for 15 min in an ice bath.

[Edited on 18-8-2014 by ganger631]

VladimirLem - 18-8-2014 at 11:04

13 ml 67 nitric acid and 18ml 95-98 conc sulfuric acid
i left it for 15 min in an ice bath.

[Edited on 18-8-2014 by ganger631]

i made some NC with those chems too (65% HNO3 and so on) and had very slow burning NC too...
its because, the NC is low-/undernitrated, afaik...(to weak HNO3 )

ganger631 - 18-8-2014 at 11:05

Do you think i would be able to make some good ng or even some nc if i leave it for longer?

VladimirLem - 18-8-2014 at 11:15

Do you think i would be able to make some good ng or even some nc if i leave it for longer?

my NC burned fast, but definitively not like the velocity that is known about "real" NC (around half/third as fast)...i made it at around 10-15C (+) so, i guess, if you dont cool it so much, it will be better nitrated (but higher risc of runaway)...
if you dont have a destillery (95%< HNO3 brings best results), you could test a nitrate+H2SO4 mixture but i doubt this will result in much better NC

NC is fun to burn, but as an explosive its not really good, so i wouldnt waste my acids on making it (only as a propellant i would go for it)

ganger631 - 18-8-2014 at 11:21

Do you think i would be able to make some good ng or even some nc if i leave it for longer?

NC is fun to burn, but as an explosive its not really good, so i wouldnt waste my acids on making it (only as a propellant i would go for it)

Have you tried making some NG with it?

VladimirLem - 18-8-2014 at 11:30

Have you tried making some NG with it?

you mean NC, right^^

with nitratesalt+H2SO4? No, thats the only way i would give it a try if i hadnt a destillery and really wanted to make NC....but the chances doesnt seems really good...
the way with 95%< HNO3 is everywhere on youtube...

but if you just want to make small amounts, you could use an impro-destillery...just goolge

ganger631 - 18-8-2014 at 11:37

No, i mean have you made some nitroglycerin with 67 conc nitric acid.Also forgot to mention my cotton had small redots.

[Edited on 18-8-2014 by ganger631]

VladimirLem - 18-8-2014 at 12:10

No, i mean have you made some nitroglycerin with 67 conc nitric acid.Also forgot to mention my cotton had small redots.

[Edited on 18-8-2014 by ganger631]

no, i havent made NG yet (and if i would make only small amounts)

why should i make NG with 67% HNO3?
with that weak HNO3 i would need to make it a 2 (maybe even 3step) step synthesis to get the TRI-nitrate of glycerine...
IF i was you, i would get some stuff like erythrol or manitol...this works fine with 65% HNO3+H2SO4...maybe much unternitrated material too, but the yield is definitivly a powerful explosive and you have high yields...
and its a BIT (a LITTLE bit) saver (/to handle) than NG...

Vpatent357 - 18-8-2014 at 13:34

IF i was you, i would get some stuff like erythrol or manitol...this works fine with 65% HNO3+H2SO4...maybe much unternitrated material too, but the yield is definitivly a powerful explosive and you have high yields...
and its a BIT (a LITTLE bit) saver (/to handle) than NG...

And for PETN.. i can use 60% HNO3 + 96% H2SO4 with good result and yield?

NeonPulse - 18-8-2014 at 14:38

Yesterday, i tried making some nitrocellulose. After completing the nitration, i left the cotton to dry. After drying i set some off and they burn like regular cotton. What did i do wrong here? I washed the cotton twice with distilled water and then used alot of baking soda to remove any remaining acid.

You will need to wash it better than that. A while ago I made some NC and washed it for hours in a tricke of water and after that another neutralization and washed it again. After it dried I tested it with ph paper and it still went red. Residual acid is stored in the hollows of the fibres. Needless to say I deflagrafed the lot. Another batch I boiled it in a sodium bicarb sol and upon drying and regular ph testing it remains neutral.

Bert - 18-8-2014 at 16:47

Nitrocellulose production & washing

VladimirLem - 19-8-2014 at 07:28

Quote: Originally posted by Vpatent357

And for PETN.. i can use 60% HNO3 + 96% H2SO4 with good result and yield?

yes, this works at pentaerytrol too
im not sure if the final product is the TRI- or TETRA-nitrate, but its powerful thats for sure and yields are okay: much less than at the 95%< HNO3-nitration but still good...

ganger631 - 19-8-2014 at 11:02

Can i make anything with hexamine and some 67% nitric and conc sulfuric?

Bert - 19-8-2014 at 12:09

Can i make anything with hexamine and some 67% nitric and conc sulfuric?

You can make LOTS of things with those chemicals... Please specify a proposed procedure? Or a desired end product?? Or post a synopsis/reference/link to some information that leads to your question???

ganger631 - 19-8-2014 at 15:03

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

Can i make anything with hexamine and some 67% nitric and conc sulfuric?

I Was wondering i could make something like hmtd, but i dont want peroxides because ive heard its very sensitive. If you could give me a suggetion and composition that would be great.

[Edited on 19-8-2014 by ganger631]

[Edited on 19-8-2014 by ganger631]

Turner - 19-8-2014 at 16:11

Quote: Originally posted by Bert