Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Potassium Chlorate cells

binaryclock - 14-3-2014 at 05:53

Hi guys it's been a year since I've been active on this forum, but getting back in to chemistry again!

A year ago there was a potassium chlorate cell with MMO electrodes that was for sale one some website. The tubes were really large and could net quite a bit of product.

I've been googling and searching on this site for those kits, but have come up empty handed. Can someone point me to the correct direction?

Last year I made tons of the stuff using custom jars with carbon electrodes. This year I just want to mass produce pure product from the start.

Thanks!

Mailinmypocket - 14-3-2014 at 06:13

MMO electrodes are relatively cheap on eBay, actually you can buy fairly large sheets of it and custom cut your own electrodes. From there building a cell is very easy, Woelen has a nice page describing how to build one.

A couple years back I bought some MMO mesh and used that as both anode and cathode in a cell, with a PC power supply and water softener KCl. It easily produced over 200g in two days, for a relatively small cell.

Ive never bought a kit for this though. Its likely cheaper to buy the MMO and build your own though.

see here

binaryclock - 14-3-2014 at 07:00

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket  
MMO electrodes are relatively cheap on eBay, actually you can buy fairly large sheets of it and custom cut your own electrodes. From there building a cell is very easy, Woelen has a nice page describing how to build one.

A couple years back I bought some MMO mesh and used that as both anode and cathode in a cell, with a PC power supply and water softener KCl. It easily produced over 200g in two days, for a relatively small cell.

Ive never bought a kit for this though. Its likely cheaper to buy the MMO and build your own though.

see here


Heya mail! Long time no see. Love to see the old names still hanging around. I never lost interest in chemistry... just had some other issues to deal with. God I can't wait to get teh lab all cleaned up and go crazy this year. My son is turning 12 now and he's that much more concentrated now. He loves chemistry too.

As far as the cells, yeah, I've been there, done that with the building of them, just used carbon instead of MMO. The kit that I saw someone use was an awesome like 1 foot tube with a clasp top. It looked perfect. Any ideas where I can get a large tube like that?

Mailinmypocket - 14-3-2014 at 08:05

Likewise! thought you would never show up again!

Anyways, are you talking about kits like this?

http://www.rollingthunderpyro.com/HHO-_PER_CHLORATE_CELLS-EL...

Honestly, for the sheer fun of building one, buying bulk MMO mesh and constructing your own cell is better. Also, the amount of MMO used is not that big, so you still will be left with a pretty nice sized piece of it after building your cell, as a backup supply.

Refinery - 16-3-2014 at 11:42

Why nobody ever mentions metallic lead? PbO2 forms at the surface in situ and residue can be settled and filtered off easily. Ready made MMO and especially platinum electrodes are extremely expensive and they may allow up to few amps of power.

jock88 - 17-3-2014 at 14:09


@Refinery
Have you done this?

Zyklon-A - 17-3-2014 at 15:09

No, of course he hasn't. If he did, he would know that what he said doesn't work.

Mailinmypocket - 17-3-2014 at 16:38

Quote: Originally posted by Refinery  
Why nobody ever mentions metallic lead? PbO2 forms at the surface in situ and residue can be settled and filtered off easily. Ready made MMO and especially platinum electrodes are extremely expensive and they may allow up to few amps of power.


MMO on Ti is not expensive at all actually...not dirt cheap per se, but not unaffordable to the amateur.

Fantasma4500 - 18-3-2014 at 10:35

emon1, the quality poster ricochets, nice to see you posting something thats perfectly in context yet again!

for container you should go for some glass jars and the lid could be wood which is easy to shape, Xenoid advocated using plastic and then putting it on a hand drill and turn it around while scraping the bottom half off until nearly fitting perfectly to the jar's top

a curved plastic container going downwards could be used to make the cell lid aswell, as in a cone, i happen to have a 45L glass cylinder with a plastic trash bin fitting into it, but not in that life, not in those sizes..

you might also want to get Ti plates for cathodes aswell, this just makes it alot cleaner and all, we all like that, if you find the correct trader its quite cheap, only ive traded with is in germany and due to geographical reasons you might not be that interested in that as it would take 'cheap' out of 'cheap titanium plates'

hyfalcon - 19-3-2014 at 03:52

I use 5 gallon plastic buckets myself for my chlorate runs. You need to fit your vessel size to the amount of power your electrodes can handle. You don't want large electrodes boiling your electrolyte, likewise you want to be able to run enough power in to the vessel to keep you temps up and not have stratification of your temps. I always run an air pump into the bottom of my bucket to add some agitation.

Fantasma4500 - 19-3-2014 at 06:57

agitation? so the Cl2 will get around or what?
ive thought about placing the anode further down somehow so that it would get to react the Cl2 with alot more water to minimize loss of Cl2

binaryclock - 19-3-2014 at 10:26

Thanks for all your replies!

Here is one of the youtube videos I remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FyGP-zSpZo


Can anyone tell me where I can find a large glass container for that to use as the cell? Also, any ideas where he got his glass vacuum rated equipment? That stuff looks awesome :)

Also - does it matter if the titanium anode/cathode is solid plate, or has diamond holes?

[Edited on 19-3-2014 by binaryclock]

MrHomeScientist - 19-3-2014 at 10:58

There's always lots of talk about producing chlorate, designing chlorate cells, etc. etc. But I never see much about why. What is everyone using large amounts (5 gallon runs at a time!) of potassium chlorate for? I've only ever needed small amounts for the "screaming gummy bear" demo. Pyrotechnics? I'd heard perchlorate is preferred since it's more stable, but don't have a reference for this claim. Just curious!

binaryclock - 19-3-2014 at 11:17

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
There's always lots of talk about producing chlorate, designing chlorate cells, etc. etc. But I never see much about why. What is everyone using large amounts (5 gallon runs at a time!) of potassium chlorate for? I've only ever needed small amounts for the "screaming gummy bear" demo. Pyrotechnics? I'd heard perchlorate is preferred since it's more stable, but don't have a reference for this claim. Just curious!


Hi MHS! Good to see you still active!

Well, my son is 12. And while he has a great fascination with chemistry that goes well behind pyrotechnics, we still like to mess around with some things that dazzle. One of his favourite things to do during our campfires is throw a few handfulls of it in the fire while eveyone is sitting around. Makes for a good wow show when purple flames dance around out of the campfire at night.

Secondly, he likes to make his own rocket designs. Lately, he's been wanting to design his own engines as well instead of relying on corporations to do it for him.. plus those damn engines are expensive! He first tried (with my assistance and guidance obviously) making the engines from black power. Quickly found out that chlorate is the way to go. He's the sort of kid that thinks if you're buying it, you're cheating... do it yourself and understand the technology behind it.

Last year I probably made about ohh, 1KG of the stuff. It was a big pain because I was doing it with carbon electrodes and small jars.

hyfalcon - 19-3-2014 at 11:56

You need the chlorate to feed your perchlorate cell. Completely different set up.

Refinery - 19-3-2014 at 12:27

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb  
No, of course he hasn't. If he did, he would know that what he said doesn't work.


I actually tested self-made lead plate stack with lower temperature solution of sodium chloride and it worked very well, although the product was sodium hypochlorite in the conditions. Lead dioxide is formed in situ on the surface and although it scrapes off, the decaying rate is so slow that wether it works otherwise I see no reason to obtain more expensive anodes.

jock88 - 19-3-2014 at 19:51


So you are saying that you know you can make Hypochloride very well.

Did you make Chlorate? (in sensible quantities) or do you know of anyone who has (except kewls with vague recollections of doing so!)

BobD1001 - 19-3-2014 at 20:08

Quote: Originally posted by binaryclock  

Secondly, he likes to make his own rocket designs. Lately, he's been wanting to design his own engines as well instead of relying on corporations to do it for him.. plus those damn engines are expensive! He first tried (with my assistance and guidance obviously) making the engines from black power. Quickly found out that chlorate is the way to go. He's the sort of kid that thinks if you're buying it, you're cheating... do it yourself and understand the technology behind it.

Last year I probably made about ohh, 1KG of the stuff. It was a big pain because I was doing it with carbon electrodes and small jars.


Binary Clock,

I hope to goodness you mistakenly wrote "Chlorate" in place of nitrate or perchlorate. Chlorate rocket engines are noting more than a blown off hand/arm or much worse waiting to happen. The friction sensitivity of chlorate based compositions makes it about as dangerous as you can get for rocket engines. I come from a background of advanced pyrotechnics, as well as solid and hybrid rocket motor design, and never in my wildest dream would I dare tempt a chlorate based rocket engine. Please, for the safety of your son, never use chlorate again in a rocket propellant composition. Try some great alternative propellants, such as KN/SB (potassium nitrate and sorbital), or even ammonium perchlorate based propellants, which can give vibrant colors when using specific burn rate catalysts due to the ammonium perchlorate acting as a chlorine donor.

Please dont take this as condescending in any way, I simply want you and your son to be safe and having fun!

Check out James Yawn's sugar rocketry website (Link) for some great starter propellant and awesome ideas, then whey you guys are ready to get to more advanced composite propellants take a look at Richard Nakka's website (Link), it is an absolute wealth of information and various propellant formulations.

hyfalcon - 20-3-2014 at 02:33

H3-(75%Chlorate/25% air float) shouldn't have explosion issues other than the occasional cato on ignition. It's sulfur that some use that sensitizes the chlorate and can cause you problems.

[Edited on 20-3-2014 by hyfalcon]

[Edited on 20-3-2014 by hyfalcon]

Fantasma4500 - 20-3-2014 at 05:36

i dont see the problem with KClO3 rocket engines with sugar and other slow combustibles except for if you really try to get it to go off accidentally.. KClO3 and sugar takes a decent amount of initiation to act as a secondary, but ofcourse on a professional basis using unstable compositions, just more than the standard blackpowder is ofcourse forbidden

i even recall a rocket enthusiast club in my country bought 25kg NaClO3 just for rocket fuel

also, i wanted to make a thread on making NH4ClO4 from NH4Cl and NaClO4 but my phone decided to never give me the pictures i took

procedure is easy if NaClO4 can be found:
NaClO4 and NH4Cl, NH4Cl in excess is dissolved in minimum hot water, all solid precipitating are dissolved in BOILING water, solution is left to cool crystals collected and recrystallized
product can be tested for at least decent purity by putting it in a small cup and heating, if a molten blob of presumably NaCl is left behind it needs to be recrystallized more, when its perfectly pure it doesnt leave anything behind

NH4ClO4 = N2 + H2O + Cl2

NH4ClO4 + Al is a good rocket fuel but the binder must be mixed into it before Al is mixed in, in amounts of 50g it needs good confinement to go bang, but will otherwise make a weak flashbang

Gargamel - 20-3-2014 at 07:15

[QUOTE]i even recall a rocket enthusiast club in my country bought 25kg NaClO3 just for rocket fuel[/QUOTE]
This is getting OT but I find this interesting:
Do you know any details what kind of fuel he is making with that stuff?

I find the idea itself - chlorate based rocket fuel - interesting from the standpoint that chlorate is the only oxidizer you can make yourself at reasonable cost and effort. This IS a very important fact in these times when "explosive precursors" are so restricted.


I once did a lot of experimentation with epoxi resin mixtures, because they can be poured in shape without giving it to much stimulation.
Only the burnrate was to slow.

KClO3/sugar is very dangerous, detonation is not your problem but unwanted ignition due to friction is. It's impossible to make a proper fuel grain without pressing ect.
H3 should have to same problem.

Also handling the pressure exponent is a challenge. Maybe nozzleless is the answer.

[Edited on 20-3-2014 by Gargamel]

hyfalcon - 20-3-2014 at 07:45

Adjust spindle size and amount of nozzle material till you get your optimum pressure without cato.

Metacelsus - 20-3-2014 at 08:02

Quote: Originally posted by Gargamel  

I find the idea itself - chlorate based rocket fuel - interesting from the standpoint that chlorate is the only oxidizer you can make yourself at reasonable cost and effort.


You can easily make perchlorate as well, given that you invest in a platinized anode (which are usually about $40). You can also use lead dioxide, but it is a pain.

Gargamel - 20-3-2014 at 12:29

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese  
Quote: Originally posted by Gargamel  

I find the idea itself - chlorate based rocket fuel - interesting from the standpoint that chlorate is the only oxidizer you can make yourself at reasonable cost and effort.


You can easily make perchlorate as well, given that you invest in a platinized anode (which are usually about $40). You can also use lead dioxide, but it is a pain.


I don't think so. From what I read, the platinium anode will wear out rather quickly. If you take necessary purification of your perchlorate and losses into account your homemade perchlorate will be very expensive.

For more chemistry focused people that is acceptable. For hobby pyros it's not.

binaryclock - 20-3-2014 at 12:36

Quote: Originally posted by BobD1001  
Quote: Originally posted by binaryclock  

Secondly, he likes to make his own rocket designs. Lately, he's been wanting to design his own engines as well instead of relying on corporations to do it for him.. plus those damn engines are expensive! He first tried (with my assistance and guidance obviously) making the engines from black power. Quickly found out that chlorate is the way to go. He's the sort of kid that thinks if you're buying it, you're cheating... do it yourself and understand the technology behind it.

Last year I probably made about ohh, 1KG of the stuff. It was a big pain because I was doing it with carbon electrodes and small jars.


Binary Clock,

I hope to goodness you mistakenly wrote "Chlorate" in place of nitrate or perchlorate. Chlorate rocket engines are noting more than a blown off hand/arm or much worse waiting to happen. The friction sensitivity of chlorate based compositions makes it about as dangerous as you can get for rocket engines. I come from a background of advanced pyrotechnics, as well as solid and hybrid rocket motor design, and never in my wildest dream would I dare tempt a chlorate based rocket engine. Please, for the safety of your son, never use chlorate again in a rocket propellant composition. Try some great alternative propellants, such as KN/SB (potassium nitrate and sorbital), or even ammonium perchlorate based propellants, which can give vibrant colors when using specific burn rate catalysts due to the ammonium perchlorate acting as a chlorine donor.

Please dont take this as condescending in any way, I simply want you and your son to be safe and having fun!

Check out James Yawn's sugar rocketry website (Link) for some great starter propellant and awesome ideas, then whey you guys are ready to get to more advanced composite propellants take a look at Richard Nakka's website (Link), it is an absolute wealth of information and various propellant formulations.


Wow all great advice! I've been using chlorate for some time without troubles, but this is a real awakening :) I'll look in to alternative chemicals like perchlorate and the such!

thanks so much!

BobD1001 - 20-3-2014 at 18:55

The main issue which many seem to be forgetting here is that powdered rocket propellants, such as any chlorate based which I know of (being sugar, charcoal, etc), must be pressed into their casing to solidify the grain. This can involve a hydraulic press, an arbor press, or just a dowel and a hammer. These pressures of forming the grain, and also the danger of accidental ignition by friction are what make chlorate based rocket compositions so unforgivably dangerous. Back when I first began in high powered rocketry I had asked about using Chlorate for engines, and was immediately reamed out... As it turns out they knew several people who in years past had tried either pressing or hammering chlorate based grains, which not only caused accidental ignition, but detonation in the case of the hammer method. Its simply a matter of who wants to win the Darwin awards. When there are MUCH safer alternatives easily accessible for equal if not lesser cost, why pose the rick to yourself and others?

BinaryClock, I hope you consider trying the Potassium Nitrate and Sorbitol propellant, after many years in rocketry this is by far my favorite propellant. Sorbitol is pretty tough to find now a days, so shoot me a PM and if you are interested I can mail you some for the cost of a small flat rate box. Your son will probably thoroughly enjoy the melting and casting process. It feels like like hot silly putty, but its rocket fuel!

hyfalcon - 21-3-2014 at 04:40

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have even tried this comp without treating it as you would when working with whistle mix. Press everything from behind the press's blast shield. Only thing I will hand ram is black powder rockets period. When trying a new comp, always start small, the smaller the better, then work your way up in size and diameter of your rocket motor.

[Edited on 21-3-2014 by hyfalcon]

[Edited on 21-3-2014 by hyfalcon]

Refinery - 23-3-2014 at 10:27

Quote: Originally posted by jock88  

So you are saying that you know you can make Hypochloride very well.

Did you make Chlorate? (in sensible quantities) or do you know of anyone who has (except kewls with vague recollections of doing so!)


Because I'm not 100% sure, I will not argue, but I want to know the scientific principles why metallic lead cannot be used as anode? It forms PbO2 on it's surface in situ, and although it partly flakes off during reaction, I can't say what causes it not to work? Would it passivate or cause alternative chemical reactions?

Fantasma4500 - 23-3-2014 at 23:32

electrolysis with lead would be great to have the lead broken down into a powder of some sort, wouldnt it?


i actually have an idea about PbO2 and graphite, although this might never be attempted --- wrapping PbO2 or graphite stick or powder into cloth or similar, wrapping it very tight so it stays in shape, this should then be able to conduct electricity and not crumble apart
one problem would be that the top of this which you connect electricity to might be soaking up all the solution and thus performing electrolysis aswell on the piece you decide to use to connect it all with, although it would work with a small piece of platinum etc to get a decently sized electrode

IrC - 10-4-2014 at 19:30

Not sure if any on you have ever found the following site but he has very good pages on chlorate cells and some useful electronics pages if you search the site.

http://www.vk2zay.net/article/63

http://www.vk2zay.net/article/64

http://www.vk2zay.net/article/76

http://www.vk2zay.net/article/86