Sciencemadness Discussion Board - no chemistry in your school

no chemistry in your school

copperastic - 18-3-2014 at 17:08

Hi, I was just wondering who doesn't have chemistry in their school. I don't but i do in high school but im only in 6th grade.

bismuthate - 19-3-2014 at 03:23

Last year my school (also 6th grade) decided to skip over the unit on chemistry :mad:

so that (and a lot of wrong info in our text books) pissed me off.

HgDinis25 - 19-3-2014 at 06:42

Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate

Last year my school (also 6th grade) decided to skip over the unit on chemistry :mad:

so that (and a lot of wrong info in our text books) pissed me off.

I think we can all agree that, if you really want to learn chemistry, school is the last place you should go...

Fantasma4500 - 19-3-2014 at 07:01

some in my high school are furious because chemistry was one of the few classes that was made as class you can choose whether to be in or not

anyhow school chemistry is just a weird thing, when i declined to have german class in school i learned many times more german by playing online games with germans once in a while even tho i had no clue on what they were saying, somehow just managed to learn it out of nowhere more and more

HgDinis25 - 19-3-2014 at 07:16

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

some in my high school are furious because chemistry was one of the few classes that was made as class you can choose whether to be in or not

anyhow school chemistry is just a weird thing, when i declined to have german class in school i learned many times more german by playing online games with germans once in a while even tho i had no clue on what they were saying, somehow just managed to learn it out of nowhere more and more

Haha true, I learned English (I'm Portuguese) by reading English chemistry literature and by watching series and by playing online games xP

I agree with bismuthate, wrong text book information pisses me off. This year's text book states, for instance, that ammonia is flammable at room temperature. C'mon that's a little bit exagerated but my teacher completed the sentece stating that lighting an ammonia solution in water could cause an explosion. -.-

Zyklon-A - 19-3-2014 at 07:30

Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25

I think we can all agree that, if you really want to learn chemistry, school is the last place you should go...

Not true, school is a great place to learn chemistry. They wont have exciting experiments usually, but as far as learning the basics, having a teacher beats teaching yourself.
And why would you be surprised if 6th grade doesn't have a chemistry class? I have never seen chem being taught in elementary, although physical science does cover chemistry a little.
I doubt I will even take a chemistry class in high school at all, because I have an above high school level knowledge of chemistry already. I will take chemistry at a community collage this year, (next school year,) for dual credit. (Even though I'm only in tenth grade.)

HgDinis25 - 19-3-2014 at 07:34

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb

Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25

I think we can all agree that, if you really want to learn chemistry, school is the last place you should go...

Nobody is talking about excinting experiments. We're talking about the basics being taught wrongly. Just read my other post ont his topic, and you'll see the tip of the iceberg of how badly school works here in Portugal.

DraconicAcid - 19-3-2014 at 09:13

Chemistry in grade 6? When I was in grade 6, we had a general "science" class that barely mentioned atoms. We didn't actually do chemistry until grade 9.

HgDinis25 - 19-3-2014 at 09:17

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid

Chemistry in grade 6? When I was in grade 6, we had a general "science" class that barely mentioned atoms. We didn't actually do chemistry until grade 9.

Yes, that too hapens here. However, inside the all general science theme, we had a part relating to chemistry (basic of the basic, like H2O is water), if I recall correctly.

Zyklon-A - 19-3-2014 at 09:59

Quote:

I wasn't talking about "excinting " experiments either.
In America, classes rarely give misinformation, AFAIK.
They do many tests, to make sure.

Tsjerk - 19-3-2014 at 10:34

Where do you come from where you are saying they give you misinformation? I have never seen anything like that while I was being educated, at most some oversimplifications, but they usually get back on that trying to teach you new stuff...

HgDinis25 - 19-3-2014 at 10:48

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Where do you come from where you are saying they give you misinformation? I have never seen anything like that while I was being educated, at most some oversimplifications, but they usually get back on that trying to teach you new stuff...

If you're talking to me, I'm from Portugal.
I can give you a few examples. For instance
- My chemistry teacher shouted at me for having 0.1 M acetic acid out of the fume hood for too long ( Vinegar is 1M) and when I said that vinegar was 1M she started screaming again and simply wouldn't answer;
- She also said that there are no plastic pasteur pippetes, and she calls them eye droppers;
- She said that lighting an ammonia solution could cause an explosion of burning ammonia;

You may think that this is an isolated case, but I know another teacher who said chlorine doesn't react with water and another one who couldn't explain sodium's reaction with water...

DraconicAcid - 19-3-2014 at 11:20

Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

At lower grades, a chemistry or science teacher is expected to have a teaching degree. They are not required or even expected to have a degree in, or any expertise in science or chemistry. The school administration will just make do with the teachers they have, and if the regular gym teacher is short of few hours on his workload, and they need someone to teach chemistry, guess who gets the job? My grade 9 science teacher took the job expecting to teach phys ed most of the time (but this meant that he was comfortable admitting that he wasn't an expert, and if he wasn't sure about something, he'd often ask me). My grade 10 chemistry teacher did have some education in chemistry, but was hospitalized part-way through September, and was replaced by someone who had no idea what she was talking about. We argued about whether combustion produced liquid water or water vapour, and she tried to prove herself right by lighting a candle, and pointing out the melted wax at the base of the flame, claiming that it was the liquid water being produced.

HgDinis25 - 19-3-2014 at 11:29

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid

Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Nop, here it's mandatory to have a degree in either Physics or chemistry to teach Physics and Chemistry (Here it's the same subject).

Töilet Plünger - 19-3-2014 at 11:32

The fact that this thread has to exist is a disgrace. From middle school, kids should have the opportunity to mess around with chemicals, lasers, and everything else deemed "dangerous."

DraconicAcid: I had the exact same thing happen to me - 6th grade science was just teachers telling us, "Science is FUN!" Like we need a teacher to tell us that. I had to wait a decade from my first interest in science to finally get into a real chemistry course. I'm a senior in high school and I still haven't seen things like thermite or alkali metals in water.

bismuthate - 19-3-2014 at 12:18

Let me better explain my previous post, my science book last year had an entire section on chemistry (on the most basic level) which my teacher decided to skip. My school is not a good school for science (my teacher wouldn't let me do my original science fair idea because it involved HCl) so I'll probabley want to take highschool chem (plus I'm pretty bad at it so I need practice). The information can be horrible sometimes in my book eg electrons randomly move around the nucleus, there are only two types of bonds, there are only three states of matter ect.

DraconicAcid - 19-3-2014 at 12:22

Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate

The information can be horrible sometimes in my book eg electrons randomly move around the nucleus, there are only two types of bonds, there are only three states of matter ect.

It's a simplified version. They have a hard enough time teaching most grade-nine students without throwing in plasma and atomic orbitals.

bismuthate - 19-3-2014 at 12:26

Yes but I feel they should say that they do exist but explain it is for a higher level. They also were horrible at explaining acids and bases. (they basicaly (heh) said that acids have low pH and bases have high pH and never really explained what pH was.

DraconicAcid - 19-3-2014 at 12:36

Quote:

Yes but I feel they should say that they do exist but explain it is for a higher level.

I've developed the habit of making blanket statements in class, followed by the disclaimer "...as far as this course is concerned".

Quote:

They also were horrible at explaining acids and bases. (they basicaly (heh) said that acids have low pH and bases have high pH and never really explained what pH was.

That's....pretty pathetic.

Of course, most texts give the Arrhenius definition of acids and bases, and leave it as that...even though no real chemist has used that since the 30s. Apparently ammonia's not really a base...it just reacts with water to make hydroxide ion, which is actually the base...

[Edited on 19-3-2014 by DraconicAcid]

HgDinis25 - 19-3-2014 at 12:42

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid

Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate

The information can be horrible sometimes in my book eg electrons randomly move around the nucleus, there are only two types of bonds, there are only three states of matter ect.

It's a simplified version. They have a hard enough time teaching most grade-nine students without throwing in plasma and atomic orbitals.

That's exactly the problem. Our education system (at least here in Portugal) is merely designed to assess medium students, and hrow at them a lot of concepts for them to memorize. They then ask them to throw them up, when it's time to take a test. The concepts may be pathetic but the important part is not thinking about them, is simply to memorize them (that's why they oversimplify things to the point of wrong concepts). And that's why teachers don't have a clue what they are talking about. Now, like I said this is for medium students. The least intelligent simply can't memorize nothing and are forgotten. The most intelligent students, who want to think about concepts, ask a lot of question, REALLY undestand the subject, are disrespected and many times the teacher simply says: Shut up. Why can she say that? Because she's the teacher.

Education is messed up.

Texium - 19-3-2014 at 14:45

I actually do have a good chemistry teacher. For the most part, she knows what she is talking about, she appreciates that I do my own experiments and doesn't discourage it.
Unfortunately, the demographic of my school is very… football oriented, and thus, even in my Pre-AP chemistry class, many people act blatantly disrespectful almost constantly, and the rest just try to push through the course. I seem to be the only one in my class who is even the least bit interested in the subject matter. They don't realize how lucky they are to be having the opportunity of a decent chemistry education, and they take it for granted.
I'm hoping that AP chemistry next year will be better, but I'm not expecting all that much out of it.

Fantasma4500 - 20-3-2014 at 05:40

i know we have it in my country as low as 7.th elementary school grades.. they decided to run around throwing CuSO4 solution everywhere -- and eventually into a girls eyes
would not even surprise me if the idiots didnt learn from it

seba - 26-3-2014 at 16:08

We did black powder and flash powder. We detonated perchlorate + sulfur. Did Al + I2 + H2O in the open (cool poisonous violet smoke).
This was primary school (7-8th grade, age 13-14).

At UNI we've had azide and nitrogen triodide detonated in the classroom.

Eastern-Europe rox.

Steam - 26-3-2014 at 16:19

We have college chemistry in our school, and now we will have organic chemistry next year!
I believe that if schools allowed middle school kids with genuine interest in a particular field take more advanced, "hands-on" classes in that field, teachers wouldn't have to spend their time trying to MAKE kids want to learn a subject. It is hard if you don't have a formal school class or a nice fat wallet to pay for a privet tutor. Fortunately there is so much information on the web these days that one could learn everything he would in a middle school class just by watching a few you-tube videos and reading a few articles. Unfortunately you can never replace the motivation and the drive that an actual grade supplies.

Texium - 28-3-2014 at 15:14

Yeah, even though the articles, videos, and places like this forum are great for learning about chemistry, people won't start unless something sparks their interest, and that's what school should do.

The Volatile Chemist - 4-6-2014 at 08:18

There will be no blanket statement for all schools ike

Quote:

I think we can all agree that, if you really want to learn chemistry, school is the last place you should go...

implies. Some schools will have good curricula, and some bad. Mine hasn't been great, very recursive until the middle of my H. Biology class, where we studied chemical cycles in cells, ATP generation, etc. I assume it will get better next year with H. Chemistry, but I can only assume.

AJKOER - 5-6-2014 at 14:21

I also previously even mentioned on SM that I suffered under a gym/chemistry 'teacher'.

I believe that the attack on democracies (certainly in USA) has progressed by the intentional de-edification of the populace. Democracies can only function progressively through informed voters. And, as an information source, I am not talking about bias attack ads funded by billionaires on those who have no schooling in economics or any understanding of rationale fiscal policies, or knowledge in pure sciences.

I am actually a fan of the Chinese controlled economy model where, when corruption/misdeeds are exposed, the guy in charge gets executed.

Texium - 8-6-2014 at 07:10

Yet at the same time under that system, many of those who are the most corrupt and powerful get a free pass because they simply own too much to be taken down. Not that it's any different in the US in that regard, like with the banks and auto companies.
Anyway though... this is now beginning to get dangerously off topic, sorry.

Brain&Force - 8-6-2014 at 09:39

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

There will be no blanket statement for all schools ike

Quote:

I think we can all agree that, if you really want to learn chemistry, school is the last place you should go...

The Volatile Chemist, I think any student who is on this site should be qualified enough to take AP Chemistry. Is it available at your school?

The Volatile Chemist - 8-6-2014 at 11:07

Quote: Originally posted by Brain&Force

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

There will be no blanket statement for all schools ike

Quote:

I think we can all agree that, if you really want to learn chemistry, school is the last place you should go...

The Volatile Chemist, I think any student who is on this site should be qualified enough to take AP Chemistry. Is it available at your school?

Thanks for thinking so!
My last teacher said I have the know how to. My school offers it, but I have to take honors first, or try to take a pass/fail test. I could pass it, but if I took AP this year instead of honors, I'd only be able to tke one year of chemistry classes

Besides, my parents don't think too highly of my chemistry "skills"/knowledge, and wouldn't let me skip a class anyways.

[Edited on 6-8-2014 by The Volatile Chemist]

Texium - 8-6-2014 at 11:41

Yep, I took Pre-AP Chemistry last year and that was all pretty basic, I knew most everything already, but it was worth it for the extra year of chemistry class! Next year I'm taking AP, and I've worked out a plan with my teacher for my senior year to have a period for independent chemistry study/being a teacher's assistant. That should be fun, since I'll hopefully have more access to the school lab equipment for stuff that I want to do. It should look good for college applications too.

Texium - 25-8-2014 at 18:05

Today was my first day of school this year. I'm already impressed by my school's AP chemistry class, because we immediately did a lab in which we used chromatography to compare the behaviors of different metal ions and use them to identify three unknown ones. We used the nitrates of silver, cobalt(II), copper(II), iron(III), and mercury(II). I was pleasantly surprised that we were allowed to use a mercury compound in a lab. I thought that chemophobia would have at least been at that level at my school. My teacher explained that she'd never let chem 1 students use mercury compounds, but she feels like she can trust AP chem students to be sensible. So, the overall first impression of the class was quite good to me. It seems too that since there is only one fairly small AP chemistry class, there is less concern about using more valuable reagents like silver nitrate. I'm looking forward to a good year in that class, especially since I get to have it everyday, whereas most classes at my school are only every other day.

Amos - 25-8-2014 at 20:40

zts16, your school sounds awesome. Mine was pretty cool and trusted us too; we did flame tests, spectrometry, worked with strong acids, etc. But unless you go somewhere pretty good for university, prepare to have your expectations quickly deflated by college courses later on. At least that was my experience with being in college.

Brain&Force - 26-8-2014 at 10:48

I'm about to go to university (first year) and I can start taking organic chem courses right off the bat! Though I go to university in October (we get a late start this year)

The Volatile Chemist - 3-9-2014 at 12:23

That's cool zts and B&F! Since I'm in 10th grade, the highest they'll let me take is honors chem, which is ok, but not too great. At least I'll be able to help others. Can't wait for AP chem next year, but this year will be fine.

bismuthate - 3-9-2014 at 12:44

I just started 8th grade and supposedly we'll be covering the chemistry section of physical science that we skipped before.

The Volatile Chemist - 3-9-2014 at 14:01

Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate

I just started 8th grade and supposedly we'll be covering the chemistry section of physical science that we skipped before.

Wow, Bismuthate! I didn't know you were younger than I. Great job on the forums so far, for going into 8th. I guess I'm only 15, and going into 10th, but you've contributed a lot to the forum for your age. Great work! Turn some heads when the teacher asks some chemistry questions, okay?

In all honesty, of course, don't brag about your knowledge. But congrats on what you know!

Brain&Force - 3-9-2014 at 14:43

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

Can't wait for AP chem next year, but this year will be fine.

Get out of honors chem.

You won't regret it. Sciencemadness has probably given you enough info to get you out of AP chem as well.

bismuthate - 3-9-2014 at 15:12

The Volatile Chemist: Thanks!
Brain&Force: but the problem is that if we don't take all the science classes our schools offer. Will that make it harder to go to a good college for chemistry (or have accepted results)?
I wonder if it would be better just to take the class for an easy A and get credit for completing the class.

Texium - 3-9-2014 at 15:17

I don't see any reason to not take it. I'm mainly taking it for fun. Since I have to go to school for other things anyway, I figure that I might as well dedicate a couple class periods to something chemistry related. Much more interesting than testing out. Next period we're making potassium ferrioxalate. Well, we're actually supposed to be making an unidentified green compound using potassium oxalate and ferric chloride and then titrating it with potassium permanganate to determine its formula, but you know, pretty obvious what it's supposed to be. Sure, it gets a little bit frustrating when my teacher tells me that I need to be showing more work on my molarity calculations or some other really simple thing that's automatic for me, but I think it's worth taking the class for the lab time that it provides. It's usually the best part of my school day.

Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate

Brain&Force: but the problem is that if we don't take all the science classes our schools offer. Will that make it harder to go to a good college for chemistry (or have accepted results)?
I wonder if it would be better just to take the class for an easy A and get credit for completing the class.

Edit: (Your post popped up around the same time as mine) I think he was meaning that it's better to test out of the classes rather than taking them. I don't really agree though, because I think it's great to be able to get some lab time during the school day. Instead, I'm taking the shortcuts on the classes that I'm not as interested in, like history and English. So, just as much credit, just as much time saved, and a more interesting schedule overall.
And yeah, it's definitely an easy A. I got a 98 on the final exam last year in pre-AP chemistry without touching the review. I'm sure that you guys would have similar results.

[Edited on 9-3-2014 by zts16]

Brain&Force - 3-9-2014 at 15:31

Understandable if you enjoy lab classes - but it may be possible to skip a grade by skipping out of a single class, depending on credits needed.

As for molarity calcs being too short, I got that ALL THE TIME in my classes.

Texium - 3-9-2014 at 15:41

Well, I might still be able to graduate early (I'm a junior now). After this year I'll have all required math credits done because I did Algebra 1 in 8th grade, all of my required history done because I took a dual credit history class over the summer, and I'm taking a dual credit English class next summer, so I'll have all of that done too. I really hope that I don't have to go back to school next year, because if I do I'll have nothing left to do.

The Volatile Chemist - 4-9-2014 at 16:04

Yea, I like taking labs, I guess. I've taken enough classes early, that I will have no required classes senior year, and 3 junior. I think I will be taking courses at my state college those years.