Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Ammonium nitrate mixtures

Ammonium nitrate mixtures

ecos - 27-3-2014 at 23:55

Hi All,

I went through many books and websites searching about the most powerful ammonium nitrate mixtures but couldn't find any comparison to those mixtures except for one document only that compares ANFO to AN/AL.

I also had a look here : Chemistry and Technology of Explosives - vol 3 but still no comparison

I can find many mixtures of ammonium nitrate with different percentages :
AN/AL
AN + Al + Sugar
AN + Al + Charcoal
AN + Al + Sulfur
AN + Al + Diesel Fuel
ANFO
ANNMAL

of course I am not interested with mixtures of TNT since it is hard to prepare it at home.

According to your experience what is the most powerful mixture that has higher VOD ? and what is the weight percentage of this mixture ?

[Edited on 28-3-2014 by ecos]

[Edited on 28-3-2014 by ecos]

[Edited on 28-3-2014 by ecos]

Mathias94 - 28-3-2014 at 03:01

ANNMAL is superior to the other mixtures that you listed. Both brisance and VOD is much higher for ANNMAL than most of the other common ammonium nitrate explosives.

ecos - 28-3-2014 at 03:28

I wanted to avoid ANNMAL since I have problem in Nitric acid, I have it with low concentration

~50%

I wished to make NG but it seems I can't, I need to make distillation for Nitric acid but it would take time and I am not that free.

then lets concentrate about mixtures without NM

Bert - 28-3-2014 at 07:24

There are a LOT of things that sensitize ammonium nitrate.

You just said you can't make THE classic material for this, used for over 150 years all over the world by the megaton, founder of a great fortune and a trust fund backing prestigious science prizes.

But the thing you lack is not the only material that will work. You have claimed to have everything required in the last week.

*And if you EVER again start a new thread to ask a basic question on a well discussed topic, no more homework.

ecos - 28-3-2014 at 08:12

Getting high concentrated nitric acid is not easy in my country.
I could get ~70% conc from my friend to make NG but the result was very small and i got bad headache as expected. So i intended to try AN in the current time.
I want to know how far shall i reach with AN mixtures. I seached the forum and couldnt find any answer for my question

This topic might extend if sb propose another mixture or different percentages

Rosco Bodine - 28-3-2014 at 09:12

VladimirLem - 28-3-2014 at 09:24

Quote: Originally posted by ecos

According to your experience what is the most powerful mixture that has higher VOD ? and what is the weight percentage of this mixture ?

It doesnt really matter which one you take....they are all ammoniumnitrate (oxidizer) + some carbon containing stuff/AL (both are fuels)...and are damn weak explosives...

you could imporove the power if you mix thouse chemicals very good (solution of AN and sugar and the FUCKING slow and not very warm heating) this might result in a much better combustion (higher VOD/brisance) of the sugar than just mixed AN powder with sugar powder...but even this will possible just make it a few percent better than just mixed powders

ANNM is far superior to normal AN+C explosives cause NM is an (very insensive) explosive by itself (NO2 groups, you know

) and has a VOD of 6100-6400m/s by itself IF you can make it detonate (sensitizer needed like ammonia/HNO3 into NM

and even ANNM is MUCH less powerful than lets say TNT...so now you can imagine how weak AN+C explosives are

ecos - 28-3-2014 at 10:52

Big thanks VladimirLem for your help , I think you mean to increase the density because of warm heating!

I checked about the Oxidizer but it seems it make difference !

here is a video that show that sugar is better than Charcoal , i don't know the reason but the video state that : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om95Q2XlHJg

maybe the usage of Sulfur might give a better enhancement but I don't know yet , I start to search about that now(maybe because of OB).

I will try to find away to get 90% nitric acid but it is a dream for me

[Edited on 28-3-2014 by ecos]

roXefeller - 28-3-2014 at 11:57

WTF, how did we get on nitric acid from ANNMAL? I second Rosco, stop the spoonfeeding.

ScienceSquirrel - 28-3-2014 at 15:54

I have advised ecos on his conduct and reopened his thread.
i know that long standing members of Science Madness will act with care and consideration for our community of amateur scientists and try to avoid conflict.

Best wishes,

Science Squirrel

VladimirLem - 28-3-2014 at 23:49

Quote: Originally posted by ecos

maybe the usage of Sulfur might give a better enhancement

never read of sulfur mixed into AMMONAL...it could produce poison gases when detonated...dont do that....AN+C is weak, you cant turn it in an even ANNM like explosive... even if the OB is perfect

the density is very important, thats correct...i only wanted to make clear, the better mixed the oxidizer and the fuel are the better the detonation will work (like as it is at blackpowder, well mixed ones burn much faster - just an example, BP doesnt detonate...normally

)

and yes...the other guys around herte are right...there are much informations on this board about your questions...just use the search engine

[Edited on 29-3-2014 by VladimirLem]

Dornier 335A - 29-3-2014 at 01:06

I ran a few quick calculations on the mixtures you listed, ecos. AN/Al, AN/Al/sugar, AN/Al/charcoal AN/Al/S and ANFOAl all displays very similar performance. ANFO has lower performance, and ANNMAl much higher.

ecos - 29-3-2014 at 01:43

@Dornier , I would appreciate if you tell me how did u calculate it, you can provide a reference and I could read it if you wish

Laboratory of Liptakov - 2-9-2014 at 11:35

Very powerful and simple composition: AN 91.1 + 8.7 hexamine. Add 0.2 soap. Create a eutectic at 155 C. Pour the cold (0-20C)aluminum sheet. In thin layers adjacent. As a small flat cakes. Crush the size of 2X2 mm and smaller. Cap sensitive No.8. The 20mm diameter and larger. The composition does not contain aluminum. The addition of 1-5% aluminum with power and sensitivity will increase. The recommended density is 1.0 to 1.2 g / cc.
LL

[Edited on 2-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

[Edited on 2-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

roXefeller - 2-9-2014 at 13:57

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Very powerful and simple composition: AN 91.1 + 8.7 hexamine. Add 0.2 soap. Create a eutectic at 155 C. Pour the cold (0-20C)aluminum sheet. In thin layers adjacent. As a small flat cakes. Crush the size of 2X2 mm and smaller. Cap sensitive No.8. The 20mm diameter and larger. The composition does not contain aluminum. The addition of 1-5% aluminum with power and sensitivity will increase. The recommended density is 1.0 to 1.2 g / cc.
LL

Do you have a source to cite for this?

Bert - 2-9-2014 at 20:12

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24032

Have not run down patent literature yet, but interesting...

(Edit)

http://www.google.nl/patents/US4528049

Ammonium nitrate seismic explosive, sensitized with hexamine & Aluminum.

[Edited on 3-9-2014 by Bert]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-9-2014 at 02:01

Clear and understandable answer to the first question posed. (from ECOS). The source composition is a research laboratory. Not by reference to patents. (for roxefeller) But I know them. This composition was subjected to tests LL: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24032
It is a weak explosive. Dangerous production. Unnecessarily complicated. Aluminum degrades during the production process. There are other discrepancies. I'm writing a deliberately simple sentences. I use machine translation. Therefore, I do not have any question referred easy to understand. Details of the research are here: http://www.pyroforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1124&post...
LL

[Edited on 3-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

[Edited on 3-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-9-2014 at 02:58

The most powerful non-molecular explosive is Cyklonan No.1,2,3. Developed in the Laboratory of Liptakov. But that's for another topic. Very easy prepare.
LL

NeonPulse - 5-9-2014 at 00:04

I was recently looking through some PDF files I have and opened up Tim Lewis's "kitchen improvised fertilizer explosives" although I tend to not really follow any instructions from books like this, while looking at some of the AN mixtures presented in it he mentions that the addition of .25% to 1% of "tide" or "Mr bubble" to an ANFO mixture gives a performance increase to the mixture used. Iwas wondering if anybody has ever tried this or verified this claim? It does seem interesting as ANFO could benefit from any increase if any is given using it but I don't see how the washing powders would help the performance increase he mentioned was slight. I dont know how he measured this though.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 5-9-2014 at 03:28

In the described compositions AN / hex soap is used as crystal growth inhibitor in the quenching of 145 (155C) at 20C. Small crystals of eutectic = higher VoD and sensibility. Soap is the only home replacement. The best inhibitors by abietic acid. Addition of 0.1 to 1%. Correct me if I'm wrong. But so far I'm the only one who could (for ECOS) answer.
Why waste time searching multiple references to patents and contributions. Just know by heart at least the first composition. A self-checkout.

[Edited on 6-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

PHILOU Zrealone - 6-9-2014 at 11:24

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Even better:
-Ammonium nitrate for Oxygen Balance.
-Hexamine dinitrate for sensitivity to initiation, fuel and higher VOD than AN...this must be the main charge!
-Soap for wetting and convenient mixing of the Al dust.
-Aluminium dust for some boost

PHILOU Zrealone - 6-9-2014 at 11:29

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24032

Have not run down patent literature yet, but interesting...

(Edit)

http://www.google.nl/patents/US4528049

Ammonium nitrate seismic explosive, sensitized with hexamine & Aluminum.

[Edited on 3-9-2014 by Bert]

Also to note the presence of CuO!

Then in the mix upon detonation just as if the following where mixed:
-a kind of Al/CuO thermite
-a kind of sensitizer by reaction between CuO and NH4NO3 what makes Cu(NH3)4(NO3)2 (TACuN)
-some Hexamethylenetetramine dinitrate sensitizer by reaction between Hexamine and NH4NO3
-some Ammonal (NH4NO3/Al)

PHILOU Zrealone - 6-9-2014 at 11:33

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

The most powerful non-molecular explosive is Cyklonan No.1,2,3. Developed in the Laboratory of Liptakov. But that's for another topic. Very easy prepare.
LL

This is claim without any proof...also you are preaching for your own chapel...

What makes you very unpartial

and really not objective

Laboratory of Liptakov - 6-9-2014 at 13:02

Arguing? Advocating Cyklonan? Looking for derision? No. They will not bother.
LL

PHILOU Zrealone - 8-9-2014 at 03:41

Derision...
"Uh you are looking for Sarah Connor,...? Sorry, she is not here, she is the girl nextdoor..."

No seriously, take a few weeks to learn a little English, the translator makes you sound like a robot (a terminator

).
Just like you, I'm not a native English speaker/writer.

I suppose you speak a Czech language...as such you should be able to learn languages quite fast...

Back on topic-constructive criticism: You claim "The most powerful non-molecular explosive is Cyklonan No.1,2,3."

--> What makes you think cyclonan is a "non-molecular" explosive?
To me it is a mix of molecules and as such it is molecular.

--> What makes you think it is "the most powerful"?
To me it is very poor explosive a simple mix of other explosive molecules would pulverize the metal piece you have displayed in your picture (at least into shrapnells below 5mm diameter...).
You of course realise that you only succeeded in cracking partially the metal piece what would be indication of a deflagration and not of a detonation.
I have made a simple KClO3/S/C/CaCO3 mix that was able to pulverize open metal pipe (3cm long, 2.5 cm diameter, 1.5mm ironsteel wall-thickness open on both sides) without detonator and that was only a strong deflagrating mix.

[Edited on 8-9-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]

AJKOER - 13-9-2014 at 10:28

One may wish to examine, for several nitrates, what actually happens to a nitrate salt in the presence of various reducing agent to ascertain proper mixing ratios and reaction structuring involving ammonium nitrate. With the formation of nitrite, for example, one may produce a more highly unstable (explosive) compound, while an excess or too little of the reducing agent may be detractive.

For instance, per Atomistry.com on the action on certain metals on NaNO3 (see http://sodium.atomistry.com/sodium_nitrite.html ), to quote:

"The Sodium nitrite, NaNO2, is obtained by reducing sodium nitrate with metals such as lead or iron, with sulphur or carbon, or with material containing these substances. "

Here is another source listing a variety of compounds to quote (see https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&... ):

"Potassium nitrate decomposes to the nitrite when heated to its melting point. Reducing agents can also be added to facilitate the reaction to completion these are Pb, Fe2S, Fe2O, Cu, MnO2, Fe, chromic, and sulfur. Best results were from MnO2 at 650 ° C"

In a prior SM thread, I referenced the use of Al, Cd under alkai conditions, and in the presence of acid and the appropriate metal, like Cu and Cu/Zn amalgam, an active surface reaction with Hydrogen as yet another possible reducing agents for nitrate to nitrite ( see http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=52&... ). My personal experience working with Aluminum is that an excess can reduce KNO3 at least to NH3 as detected by the smell.

Now, one can compare the prior list of reducing agents to promote the formation of the nitrite with actual noted incompatiblilies as cited in this source for NH4NO3 (link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&... ), entitled "Study of Incompatibility of Ammonium Nitrate and its Mechanism of Decomposition by Theoretical Approach", by Stefania Cagnina et. al., to quote:

"Free ammonia in NH4NO3 may either stabilise, or tend to destabilise, the salt upon the situation. AN containing 0.1 % of ammonium chloride decomposes vigorously below 175 °C. Presence of 0.1 % of calcium chloride or iron(III) chloride in the nitrate lowers its initiation temperature sufficiently to give a violent or explosive decomposition. Al, Sb, Bi, Cd, Cr, Co, Cu, Fe, Pb, Mg, Mn, Ni, Sn and Zn react violently or explosively with fused ammonium nitrate below 200 °C. Mineral acids destabilise. Concentrated acetic acid mixtures ignite on warming. Fire incidents involve AN mixed with 1% of organic fuels (confinement required). Up to 2-4 %, such mixtures are used as commercial explosives. AN containing the sulfate readily explodes on contact with potassium or its alloy with sodium. In presence of sulfide ores, explosives containing AN may undergo runaway reaction, leading to detonation at T < 40 °C. "

Interestingly, based on my nitrite formation supposition from ammonium nitrate, I anticipiated all the listed incompatible metals with the exception of Sb, Bi, Co, Mg, Ni and Sn.

A related extreme observation on transmuting ammonium nitrate prior to detonation could occur with NH4NO3 in Kerosene. If one heats the mixture to 170 C (but below 260 C ), the ammonium nitrate decomposes to N2O. When/if all the NH4NO3 is so thermally reduced, one can then subject this mixture to a strong detonator at which point an explosion is solely/largely due to kerosene infused N2O. As a source, see page 9 at https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&... . To quote:

"Mixtures of N2O and hydrocarbon are monopropellants that are easily transportable explosives, such as, N2O and kerosene. "

The reaction of thermally heated NH4NO3 with sulfide ores is not surprising as one source notes (http://www.h2o2.com/products-and-services/us-peroxide-techno... ):

5 H2S + 8 NO3- → 5 SO4 2- + 4 N2 + 4 H2O + 2 H+

And another source to quote (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11935194):

"The major decline in H2S level coincided with the first complete nitrate consumption and production of nitrite"

There is also an interesting (and not completely unexpected per the KNO3 reduction to KNO2 noted above) interaction between ammonium nitrate based industrial explosives and pyrite-rich minerals in mining operations where the occurrence of spontaneous explosions has been reported (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19056177).

[Edited on 13-9-2014 by AJKOER]

?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-9-2014 at 11:59

All this is instructive. Post put a lot of work. Does it add up to 1% pyrite AN mixture? Or else sensibilizer? Add 0.1% ammonium chloride? Or KNO2?
LL

AJKOER - 15-9-2014 at 14:14

Until someone actually tests or can find a source on explosive performance differences, I would not assert whether any of the apparent destabilizers, which could facilitate a more rapid NH4NO3 decomposition, necessarily has any benefical impact on a particular explosive property.

The extreme example I gave of changing NH4NO3 in kerosene, into a N2O infused explosive, would, I suspect, increase the need for a higher power detonator (that is, the opposite of sensitizing), and further, in line with observed pure N2O based explosions, produce an insane temperature at point of detonation (as I noted in a prior thread, temperatures approaching 5,000 F). The latter property has been reported as hampering accident scene investigations as explanatory evidence can be vaporized.

Unfortunately for sure, some destabilizers do seem to promote the risk of accidental detonation (as in the case of FeS2).

[Edited on 15-9-2014 by AJKOER]

LL

Laboratory of Liptakov - 16-9-2014 at 02:24

I understand better. Inappropriate sensitizer leads to a gradual degradation of the composition. Or equal to spontaneous explosion. Sorry for my English.
LL

High sensitive

Laboratory of Liptakov - 20-9-2014 at 13:42

Intermolecular eutectic composition:
91,1.............AN
8.9.............hexamine
5................aluminium
0.2.............soap
Sensitivity to primary initiator only: 0,4 LA or 0,4 HMTD. Grain 1x1mm, density 0,8 - 1,2g/cc, diameter 20mm, only in paper tube. Full detonation. Repeatedly......... :cool:

Bert - 20-9-2014 at 13:54

Quote:

0.2.............soap

Soap covers a wide range of possibilities- Sodium lauryl sulfate for soap?

soap

Laboratory of Liptakov - 20-9-2014 at 23:48

I use machine translation. I do not understand this question accurately. On 1. side of this thread is a function of soap explained. It is a substitute. There has to be 0.1% abietic acid. What use soap? Any. Any bar soap. LL

Antiswat - 21-9-2014 at 22:36

86.5 AN
8.46 hexamine
4.75 Al
0.19 'soap'
couldnt help but adjust ratio to 100

hell

Laboratory of Liptakov - 25-9-2014 at 11:52

It looks good. It will go like hell. Perhaps only 300mg HMTD ... :cool:

Thanks.
LL