Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Chemistry for profit?

Chemistry for profit?

Steam - 7-4-2014 at 05:49

I know this is probably a stupid question but is there any way one could make money selling chemicals on places like eBay?

I have been thinking about this and the only way I could see it being profitable is to either
A) purchase a "hard to get" chemical from an actual supplier in bulk, then re-sell it in smaller quantities. Ex: buying diethyl ether and selling it on eBay.
Or
B) synthising regulated or heavily watched chemicals at home on a large scale and then sell it to ebay. Ex: making mercury chloride, or bromine?

Any thoughts?
And for any federal agents reading this, the chemicals would be packaged and shipeded to regulations!

gdflp - 7-4-2014 at 06:01

This is a very hard topic. As stated in other topics, generally expensive chemicals which you could make a profit selling are expensive for a reason. Either they are extremely toxic(e.g. Nickel Carbonyl) or illegal, or otherwise hard to make. The best way to make money would be custom synthesis, but even then, the best you would be able to do is maybe support your chemistry hobby and be able to stock your lab. Their is no way you will be able to make enough money to earn your living this way.

Zyklon-A - 7-4-2014 at 06:16

The key is
:Start small.
:Have lots of money.

Steam - 7-4-2014 at 07:13

I have acces to an actual business address. Would this change anything? Maybe redistribution?

gdflp - 7-4-2014 at 07:41

Maybe if major suppliers like Sigma Aldrich would actually accept your orders(highly unlikely), you could resell hard to get/synthesize chemicals. However, there is a reason they don't sell to individuals in the first place, liability.

Steam - 7-4-2014 at 08:15

I have received orders from lab depo and other "mid-ranking" suppliers. Like I said I have an actual business/lab address.

what sort of chemicals are in demand?

[Edited on 7-4-2014 by Steam]

GoldGuy - 7-4-2014 at 08:15

I know Id be willing to buy certain things that are legal and Canada but hard to get like Iodine, concentrated H2O2, raney nickel, phosphorus, bulk KI, ethyl acetate etc.

Also many other chemicals which are easily available but hard to purify because I don't have a distillation setup...DCM, nitromethane, potassium nitrate, potassium carbonate, sodium metabisulfite, calcium pyruvate..... I know there many more just cant think off tops of my head but all the normal stuff used for gold extraction and biodiesel are needed by the home chemist and we would pay a pretty penny for them.

Its simple economics. Look and see if there is a demand and investigate how much profit you could make by supplying it then do it.

gdflp - 7-4-2014 at 08:18

Depending on what they stock that could be useful. NOTE: I have access to a business address too, however, major suppliers like Sigma-Aldrich require more than just a business address. They will investigate if the chemical requested is needed for the specific research that company is conducting, if not and it's a small company they will reject the order. On this forum, there are many stories of orders being rejected for this reason from Sigma, Alfa etc.

Steam - 7-4-2014 at 08:47

Yes yes, I have had that happen to me. I have a pretty good relationship with my supplier and they have never asked for any DEA license numbers or anything. Furthermore the business which it ships to is a place which relieves chemicals on a daily basis.

For example I have the ability to order 15 Crown-5 or 4-sec-Butylphenol

I am not trying to do this for a living, but I just want to make a little spending money.
I have a lot of capital and I am just wondering if I could turn it into a semi profitable investment.

What I want to do is sell something that (isn't illegal) is hard to find for the average home chemist, and produce it for sale.
The compund would have to easy enought to synthsise that it could be made cost effictavly on the small/medium scale but hard enough that the home chemist would be willing to pay money for it. Also it would have to be common enough for their to be demand for it.
I realize profits will be fractional, especially with shipping and reagent acquisition.

[Edited on 7-4-2014 by Steam]

Bert - 7-4-2014 at 08:50

I can add a few things you need to consider-

Selling & offering to ship hazardous materials in USA?. You'll need to get trained & registered with FMCSA

"No person may offer or accept a hazardous material for transportation in commerce unless that person is registered in conformance with subpart G of Part 107 of this chapter, if applicable, and the hazardous material is properly classed, described, packaged, marked, labeled, and in condition for shipment as required or authorized..."(49 CFR 171.2(a))

Selling any chemicals remotely of interest to DEA, BATFE, CPSC? You will need to learn the requirements for record keeping & other procedures. Ignorance will not be accepted as an excuse.

Civil liability? Got a lawyer? Insurance?

There is a reason the larger distributors charge what they do, and choose customers as they do.

Good luck!

[Edited on 7-4-2014 by Bert]

Steam - 7-4-2014 at 08:58

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

I can add a few things you need to consider-

Selling & offering to ship hazardous materials in USA?. You'll need to get trained & registered with FMCSA

Selling any chemicals remotely of interest to DEA, BATFE, CPSC? You will need to learn the requirements for record keeping & other procedures. Ignorance will not be accepted as an excuse.

Civil liability? Got a lawyer? Insurance?

There is a reason the larger distributors charge what they do, and choose customers as they do.

Good luck!

Then how do people sell chemicals on ebay with out being sued?

[Edited on 7-4-2014 by Steam]

Bert - 7-4-2014 at 09:21

They come and go, haven't you noticed?

Quite a few of them ARE various government entities trolling for stupid people.

Some are professionals and do things legally.

Some are unprofessional, ignorant people trying to make a buck. Some of THESE are low key and small enough that they either aren't noticed or prioritized. Others get sent a cease & desist- Or a SWAT team.

Make your choices as you see fit. But ignorance isn't a valid excuse if you fuck the dog.

Steam - 7-4-2014 at 09:57

Understood. But would you need to fill out forms for ALL DEA watched chemicals? Mg ribbon is on this list!

Also what if it isn't on the list or classified as hazardous?

[Edited on 7-4-2014 by Steam]

aga - 7-4-2014 at 11:23

Quote: Originally posted by Steam

I have acces to an actual business address. Would this change anything? Maybe redistribution?

If you want to make money, then you may find that simply renting the business address to people, e.g. offer a maildrop service, could make more money than selling chemicals on ebay.

Seems that making cash out of chemistry is restricted to drugs (legal or otherwise), or being able to mass-produce a required substance, such as fertilizer by the tonne.

If you have a bundle to invest, maybe simply buying and selling lab equipment would work for you.

aga - 7-4-2014 at 11:32

> Then how do people sell chemicals on ebay with out being sued?

Basically those people are probably taking a risk.

Maybe they'll be able to continue selling forever, maybe they'll get shut down/fined/imprisoned tomorrow.

Whether it's worth it is a matter of personal circumstances & conscience, and a not insignificant quantity of Luck.

Bert - 7-4-2014 at 11:38

Quote: Originally posted by Steam

Understood. But would you need to fill out forms for ALL DEA watched chemicals? Mg ribbon is on this list!

Also what if it isn't on the list or classified as hazardous?

[Edited on 7-4-2014 by Steam]

If it's not hazardous or otherwise controlled, what you do is between you, your customer and the IRS.

As far as following all US laws & regulations, you will need to study. It's more pages of information than all of known organic chemistry. And makes less sense. I am not joking or exaggerating, those big companies have several people who do nothing but compliance.

Steam - 7-4-2014 at 11:51

Oh boy... But if sales is just between me, the customer, and the IRS then couldn't the sale of chemicals be treated just like the sale of your grandmas old coffee maker?

Also, being a maildrop service provider probably won't happen for the business which I use is about an hour and a half drive way.
I would be willing to go down there every so often but it is definitely not an every week thing.

Bert - 7-4-2014 at 12:15

IRS?

You are very young? Here is the deal:

You make money and are above minimum taxable income, they want a share. You go over a trigger threshold and they notice, they will spend time to look at you. If it's money enough, they will try and take their share + penalties. Their lawyer is paid for by our taxes, your lawyer is paid for by you. Defendant's odds are not looking good.

They have virtually no restrictions on how they go about extracting information about your activities. Or money from you. Ever wonder why eBay requires PayPal payment linked to bank accounts or credit cards, not anonymous enevelopes of cash or postal money orders? And doesn't even ask for a warrant before turning over EVERYTHING on you to ANY level of official request? Answer: They aren't going to be your co-defendant.

macckone - 7-4-2014 at 13:02

Probably the biggest trouble selling to hobbyist is the cpsc.
Just ask united nuclear. Most but not all of the 'watched'
chemicals don't require extensive record keeping if sold in
small quantities. Iodine and red phosphorous have no lower limit.
For example the limit for methyl amine is 1 kg.
Of course you will need to keep records because that limit is
sale to a single person per year.
Now if the cpsc cracks down on you, then you may have to resort
to shipping to only business addresses for 'hazardous' chemicals or
requiring customers sign forms like united nuclear does.

And the point about the IRS, their trigger threshold for investigation
is $600 of deposits or transfers. If they think you owe taxes based on
a records search (yes they can search bank records including paypal) then you will get an invitation to their offices for a chat.

BromicAcid - 7-4-2014 at 19:19

Making and selling chemicals has been brought up again, and again, and again. Just search:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=19963
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14753
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=18004
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13706
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=26021

This is <b>not</b> an exhaustive list.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 8-4-2014 at 06:02

Hello, is it legal to sell chemicals you synthesized your self? For example I synthesized a flammble material but is kept in a dilute water solution and I sell it. Is it legal?

gdflp - 8-4-2014 at 07:42

It depends on what it is. Is it on this list? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEA_list_of_chemicals

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 8-4-2014 at 10:47

Quote: Originally posted by gdflp

It depends on what it is. Is it on this list? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEA_list_of_chemicals

Wow so many of them are simple compounds encountered in countless reactions, but anyways, if you're replying to me, I dont have any interested in any compound in the list.

So, if i sell anything not on the list, I will be fine?

Chemosynthesis - 8-4-2014 at 10:50

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

That list is only really valid if you're having the chemicals enter the US at any point in time. The UN has some kind of regulatory apparatus in place as well (Chemical Weapons Convention comes to mind), but your locale may not be subject to it.

Steam - 8-4-2014 at 12:01

Then is it legal to make and have in your possession list 1 chemicals.
Ex: making Phosphorous, or Methylamine?

gdflp - 8-4-2014 at 12:05

Theoretically yes. However, if you are buying tons of precursors to these chemicals, or drugs, on sites like eBay, the DEA can get a search warrant and knock on your front door. Especially if the chemicals are on that list. And eBay is all too happy to give your address and buying history to them.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 8-4-2014 at 13:05

Quote: Originally posted by gdflp

Theoretically yes. However, if you are buying tons of precursors to these chemicals, or drugs, on sites like eBay, the DEA can get a search warrant and knock on your front door. Especially if the chemicals are on that list. And eBay is all too happy to give your address and buying history to them.

Is there a legal way to obtain chemicals on that list? any form of certificate etc? acetic anhydride and sulfuric acid are just too useful.

aga - 8-4-2014 at 13:20

Quote: Originally posted by gdflp

eBay is all too happy to give your address and buying history to them.

Also happy to freeze any funds you have in your PP account, but strangely keep accepting any Incoming money.

Ebay/PayPal *have* to comply - they are playing in the Big Game, and will do anything to you and me so they can keep playing.

gdflp - 8-4-2014 at 13:36

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Any List I chemicals will cause the DEA to come knocking. List II and SS are less restricted, but obviously if you're going down the list buying every single one in a short amount of time it will attract some suspicion.

macckone - 8-4-2014 at 16:09

As others have said, list 1 chemicals will attract attention but
they do have a lower limit of concern. Ie. any amount over the
minimum threshold results in the chemical supplier notifying the DEA.
As for manufacturing, making more than the threshold amount would
require a license. On the other hand it is only illegal to possess those
chemicals if they were obtained fraudulently or if you intend to make a
scheduled substance. However, possessing some of those chemicals
will be used as evidence of your intent to manufacture a scheduled
substance. The list 2 chemicals don't attract as much attention and
the thresholds are reasonable. It isn't a crime to buy chemicals.
It is a crime to make drugs or lie while buying them. And selling them
does require you to register with the DEA if they are listed. And
that means even if you never sell over the listing threshold.
Which as I previously said for some substances is 0kg.

Chemosynthesis - 8-4-2014 at 16:36

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

Is there a legal way to obtain chemicals on that list? any form of certificate etc? acetic anhydride and sulfuric acid are just too useful.

As above, yes. Aren't you in Dubai, though? You have entirely different laws.

Steam - 8-4-2014 at 18:43

As a 100% hypothetical example, let's I want to synthesize Penicillin G for purely personal research and had absolutely no intention of it ever leaving the lab. Penicillin G can be made form phenylacetic acid which is on the list. Could I make phenylacetic acid?

macckone - 8-4-2014 at 18:51

Quote: Originally posted by Steam

As a 100% hypothetical example, let's I want to synthesize Penicillin G for purely personal research and had absolutely no intention of it ever leaving the lab. Penicillin G can be made form phenylacetic acid which is on the list. Could I make phenylacetic acid?

In theory yes you can make it. And if the quantity is very small and you
have good notes attesting to your interest in Penicillin G and if you lack
any notes regarding other uses then you are probably safe-ish. You
may want to put a lawyer on retainer if you ever searched the web
for anything remotely illegal though. Not to discourage you but if caught
with a list 1 chemical you need to have pretty good evidence that you
are not guilty of cookery.

Steam - 8-4-2014 at 19:07

Probably a good idea for me to stay away from any list 1 for a while considering I wrote a school newspaper article on Breaking Bad last month!

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 9-4-2014 at 00:03

Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

Is there a legal way to obtain chemicals on that list? any form of certificate etc? acetic anhydride and sulfuric acid are just too useful.

As above, yes. Aren't you in Dubai, though? You have entirely different laws.

Yes, I will be moving to US soon, and I am really worried what If I am caught having chemicals or I can not find the suppliers.

gdflp - 9-4-2014 at 05:40

It might be legal to have a chemical in the US. However, you might have some serious issues importing this stuff. Especially because I see you are very active in EM, lots of your stuff might not be importable to the US. I would check it out this page http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/21cfr_reports/chemicals/in... for info about the List I and II stuff. Good Luck!

macckone - 9-4-2014 at 07:09

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

Yes, I will be moving to US soon, and I am really worried what If I am caught having chemicals or I can not find the suppliers.

Unfortunately for you it will be illegal to manufacture energetics until you have a permanent resident visa and the correct explosives license. Given your country of residence and posting history here it would not be advisable to pursue much chemistry until your paperwork is complete and you have an appropriate magazine. Dept of Homeland Security is likely to have you on a watch list.
Sorry to be a kill joy but people from the middle east dont get equal rights in the land of the free. Technically it is legal for permanent residents and citizens to manufacture energetics for personal use without a license but you still have to have a magazine and you need a license to transport them. Given your country of residence assume that personal use isn't going to cut it with DHS.

Bert - 9-4-2014 at 08:49

Sadly true, at least in the explosives BUSINESS. BATFE CAN give letters of clearance as an explosives handler for non US citizens- But only permanent residents are likely to ever get one.

See question #25:

Given the huge number of undergraduate foreign students in US institutions taking organic chem and likely interested in synthesis of energetics- Could some of our academic members give the straight dope on this? Is there a blanket license for the department/professor, and the students work under it? Or is it just not do-able for someone on a student visa at all?

My knowledge is completely on the commercial end of EM.

If you're a grad student or researcher in an explosives related field, you MIGHT just get a variance if your Prof. or Dept. head cares to ask on your behalf?

[Edited on 9-4-2014 by Bert]

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 9-4-2014 at 10:49

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

Yes, I will be moving to US soon, and I am really worried what If I am caught having chemicals or I can not find the suppliers.

Right, but I am not actually from middle east. Our team consists of several members and there are several people on this account, I am asian(other posts might come from someone else) and I am a permanent US resident (my family got the green card because of my dad's company). Dubai is not dangerous at all! I have been living here for 10 years, police arrive in lightning speed for anything, and therefore its crime rate makes it one of the safest city in the world. I never saw any crime here and everyone here is nice. However in other countries in the middle east, its a different story.

How do you obtain the licence to manufacture explosives? I am not really interested in explosives's explosive property and I am more into their use for advanced solid propellants. The binder will make the overall sensitivity more friendly. I obviously won't synthesize peroxides, and yes I might synthesize RDX etc maybe for a burn rate comparison for different formulations with others so I think I do need that licence.

Bert - 9-4-2014 at 11:12

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

Our team consists of several members and there are several people on this account

Please, have your various members who wish to post here GET THEIR OWN ACCOUNTS.

I was puzzled as to why "DubaiAmateurRocketry" varied so much in tone and background knowledge.

US Explosives Laws- Please read pp. 13-59 for starters

As far as a US explosives license, you fill out a form and give BATFE a fee ($200.00 for most license types), they will come inspect your proposed storage magazine, if your application is for a license type requiring one- Then you are issued a license if everything is found to be proper and to spec.

macckone - 9-4-2014 at 16:42

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

To the DHS simply traveling to the middle east is sufficient to get you
added to the watch list. They are not as discriminating as many
would like. As a permanent resident, you should be able to get an
explosives permit for research purposed on advanced rocket propellants.
You should join and participate in the National Rocketry Association.
Once you have a high power rocketry level 3 license, you should have
no problem getting the license with support of your local NRA (not to
be confused with the National Rifle Association).

[Edited on 10-4-2014 by macckone]

Ax165Xj - 11-4-2014 at 09:35

I was on ebay the other day and saw someone from Ukraine selling Chloral Hydrate and para-methoxy P2NP along with various other suspicious chems. I can't imagine they'll last too long on there.

Steam - 11-4-2014 at 11:17

But laws regarding sale of chemicals in Ukraine may be different than in the states...

packetforger - 12-4-2014 at 11:16

A lot of the "good" suppliers (read as: suppliers who happily sold anything to amateur chemists) come from the former Soviet bloc. countries. Keten, Czort, etc. were all from that part of the world, and had solid reputations amongst European chemists at least for being reliable. They did, however, vary a bit in compliance with shipping regulations - often no warning labels on boxes, etc. Same deal with some Chinese suppliers, who would happily relabel materials if import problems were as much as alluded to.

Fantasma4500 - 13-4-2014 at 07:38

i recall seeing massive traffic and interest on the sodium hydride thread
which is not that easy to get hold of, but they sent shittonnes of it, although many kg's of it was confiscated at canadian borders

neptunium - 14-4-2014 at 06:27

what about nature? minerals and plants can provide alot of various chemicals given a proper lab and a few basic chemicals...yes you might have to travel to mine sites and know about ore and rocks and plants and flowers but isnt that the purpose of science and this site? and isnt that what a curious mind is about?