Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Good Energetic Materials for a Novice

Good Energetic Materials for a Novice

Texium - 7-4-2014 at 16:37

While I am not a COMPLETE beginner in terms of chemistry in general, I have not tried much in terms of energetic materials.
So far, I've only made black powder and yellow powder.

Does anybody here have some ideas for energetic materials that would not be too dangerous, while still fairly impressive, that people like me who are new to energetic materials could synthesize?

BTW, I realize that I probably could have UTFSE, but I figured it would be nice and convenient for people like me to be able to find a thread of fairly safe but interesting suggestions.

Zyklon-A - 7-4-2014 at 16:45

Nitrocellulose is a fun easy energetic to prepare. If you have sulfuric acid.

thesmug - 7-4-2014 at 16:46

Wouldn't you also need Nitric Acid?
[edit] If you're really careful you could try nitrogen triiodide, assuming you have iodine.

[Edited on 4/8/14 by thesmug]

copperastic - 7-4-2014 at 16:56

Thesmug, Ive been wanting to do nitrogen triiodide for a while but im worried that it would sound like a gunshot and i might go to jail. Have you done it and did it sound like a gun shot?
Thanks

[Edited on 8-4-2014 by copperastic]

thesmug - 7-4-2014 at 17:08

It doesn't really sound like a gunshot, more like a firework. Where do you live (not in my basement)? This would help in suggesting experiments. Making nitrogen triiodide wouldn't be a good idea inside an urban area. I did mine in the middle of nowhere in Michigan.

plante1999 - 7-4-2014 at 17:08

I would say that nitrocellulose is very safe and makes a great demo, although for some yet unclear reason sometime synth. fallowed carefully won't give a good quality product.

if you would like to try something that detonate readily, silver azide is quite easy to synthetise, and detonate with slight heating. The advantage over most other primary is the stability if stored in the dark. It is very sensitive to static, but if carefully handled it won't go off without reason, will keep well, and will be reliable when needed. It does not make large crystals when synthesized, which simplify the synthesis compared to the lead azide.

A standard first nitro aromatic synthesis is picric acid, but I would not recommend it, since its properties are not interesting to use as a demo (else then if you are into dying wool).

I don't recommend you to make any nitrate else then cellulose, since these compounds are inherently unstable and can be very dangerous often due to their low stability, high sensitivity and fast rate of decomposition in storage.

Peroxides are a no-no, unless you are experienced and want to test the properties of a few mg. Do not follow the trend of people that use them as primary.

roXefeller - 7-4-2014 at 17:32

Black powder. No dealing with preparation of nitric acid and it lets you get your feet wet. Then you can play with all the fun ways of using it. NC is one option for the next step up, but picrates can be fun and don't have big runaway risks. You'll learn plenty of nitroaromatic chemistry that will serve you well for something else like TNT which is a safer cousin to the nitrate esters that plante1999 was talking about.

copperastic - 7-4-2014 at 17:35

I live in an urban area but I do have a membership to a gun club but i don't think they would let me do nitrogen triiodide there. Could i do like .5 gram amounts in my house? Also, do you have any experiments involving energetic materials i could do in a urban area.

Zyklon-A - 7-4-2014 at 17:39

Don't worry about that copperastic, it doesn't really sound like a gun shot. Just don't make much.
thesmug, No, you just need sulfuric acid and a nitrate salt.

[Edited on 8-4-2014 by Zyklonb]

copperastic - 7-4-2014 at 17:41

Ok zyklonb I also remember when i used to be into slingshots and i would fire those at a cardboard box and it would make a loud noise but no neighbors were annoyed or anything.

Napolean Dynamite - 7-4-2014 at 18:34

The answer to detonating .5g of HE inside your house is no, unless you are wearing ear protection I suppose.

thesmug - 7-4-2014 at 19:50

I agree with Napolean Dynamite, 0.5g of nitrogen triiodide is actually kind of a lot. I would go with even lower amounts if you want to do it inside without worrying about your hearing.

Bert - 7-4-2014 at 21:45

I don't know if there is ANY "good first synthesis" if you're completely new to it and on your own. But nitrogen triiodide certainly is NOT a good first lab.

I swiped a few grams of Iodine from the high school chemistry lab at age 16. Did the obvious thing with it, of course.

Performed the reaction with my mom's "clear ammonia" between getting home from school and going off to my part time job at a local restaurant. The batch was left drying on the filter paper, sitting on my desk- In my bedroom. Indoors. About 5' from my bed. With all my prized lab glass sitting next to it.

Bad planning, that.

When I got home, my lab glass was in tiny pieces all over the room. A LOT of it was in my bed... My dad was waiting up for me, drinking a beer and when he talked to me he was rather surprisingly calm and non-judgemental... All he said was: Don't make anything explosive in the house. Don't bring anything explosive you MAKE into the house. Good night.

The next day, my younger brother who had the bedroom next to mine told me that he had been horsing around with a friend, and banged into the wall separating our rooms. There was a large explosion on my side of the wall... He opened the door of his room just in time to see my father finish his sprint to my bedroom door. Dad opened the door and looked inside at the cloud of purple iodine vapor hanging over the ruins of my desk and said to himself out loud: "Oh. He knows how to make that now?"

Dad then closed my door and went back to the kitchen table, cracked a beer and continued sketching electronics circuits for his next day's work. Don't know how many more he downed before I got home that night-

It took me hours to clean up all that broken glass. If it had not gone off until I had come home and entered the room, I'd have probably suffered injuries from flying glass, possibly hearing damage and maybe lost an eye or eyes. I was as lucky as such a fool can be.

At Dad's funeral, his older brother told me the story about Dad getting arrested at age 13 for a fireworks experiment that broke a neighbor's window back before WWII. Guess it runs in the family.

[Edited on 8-4-2014 by Bert]

thesmug - 7-4-2014 at 22:12

Well that's why I said not to do it inside!

Bert - 7-4-2014 at 22:22

Yup!

NOT INSIDE! It's something I repeat to people who are new to energetics quite often myself.

aga - 8-4-2014 at 13:13

Er, the request was for 'Good Energetic Materials for a Novice'

The words 'Good' and 'Novice' are there in bold letters.

Can anyone suggest something a little 'safer', rather than HE formulations ?

Build up to the neutron bomb slowly.

Bert - 8-4-2014 at 14:57

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Er, the request was for 'Good Energetic Materials for a Novice'

The words 'Good' and 'Novice' are there in bold letters.

Can anyone suggest something a little 'safer', rather than HE formulations ?

Build up to the neutron bomb slowly.

OK.

There is NOTHING in the area of energetic materials that is completely safe. We are talking degrees of safety here...

My best advice, after doing nearly everything in my earlier years in ah, shall we say "less than optimally reduced risk" fashion?

Find a mentor with hands on experience, (ideally with 10 fingers mostly present on those hands!) Energetic Materials is best learned in an apprenticeship situation, you just can't get it all from Internet & books, most especially if you're young, immortal and just itching to try out all the cool new possibilities.

Go here if you're 18 or over: Pyrotechnics Guild International

If you're under 18, go here: Junior Pyrotechnics Association

And the people suggesting black powder as a first energetic are correct. Start with low explosives in small amounts, work your way up.

Chemosynthesis - 8-4-2014 at 15:06

I agree with Bert.

Under the right supervision, I think black powder and nitrocellulose are the most legally accessible low and high order explosives, respectively. You should definitely get informed of the local laws and have acquaintances to, at the least, vouch for your character in a legal setting should you draw negative attention.

hyfalcon - 9-4-2014 at 03:59

Well before any of the complex synths, I would suggest perchlorate/Al flash mixtures. They aren't as safe as BP but, you're just dealing with mixing powders together, not mixtures of acid. That's what I steeped up to after BP. I you're just wanting the bang then you don't have to go any further. I'm kinda partial to reactive targets myself. I got tired of walking all the way down range just to see if I had punched a hole in the target.

Metacelsus - 9-4-2014 at 04:57

Things you should do (in order):
1) Black powder
2) Flash powder
3) Nitrocellulose
4) Other high explosives (ETN/RDX, etc.)

This also happens to be my progression (over a few years).

plante1999 - 9-4-2014 at 05:45

Nitric ester like ETN are not something to play with, especially ETN. Like I already said, they are unstable, sensitive, and of low stability. Else then a few exceptions they are not material to try on.

I would not conssider Flash powder to be something to try too.

hyfalcon - 9-4-2014 at 17:34

plante, the regular pyro mix 70/30 potassium perchlorate/aluminum is as close to safe as you can get when dealing with energetics above just black powder. If he's going to mess with any of it that would be the one to mess with. Do NOT work with chlorate mixtures until you have quit a bit more experience and are aware of proper mixing and safety procedures. Do not EVER mix chlorate and sulfur, they have and will spontaneously combust.

Texium - 9-4-2014 at 19:06

Yep, perchlorate/aluminum was actually something else I was planning on doing, so I guess I'm on the right track.
By the way, I do absolutely everything outside, and I am very cautious when it comes to anything explosive, even black powder.
I'm not trying to make the biggest explosions I can like a kewl, I just want to explore another facet of chemistry that isn't exactly spoken of in high school chemistry class.

feacetech - 9-4-2014 at 20:16

If you are old/sensable enough to use a centre fire rifle

Ammonium Nitrate/pyro grade Al powder

95%:5% mass ratio

is pretty safe

just the shooting and distance from target is all you have to worry about

maybe working with ultra fine Al powder can be hazrdous if the proper precautions are not taken

you may need some rural land away from any one who may get upset by loud noises, as this is fairly "impressive"

[Edited on 10-4-2014 by feacetech]

Zyklon-A - 9-4-2014 at 20:21

So you're saying to shoot at the AN-Al mixture with a gun? This I've gotta try!

PeeWee2000 - 9-4-2014 at 21:33

Quote:

Here is someone new to the explosives arts. Please remember: Free explosives engineering information on the Internet is often worth every bit of what you pay for it!

-Edited by Bert, 10/4/14

I'm surprised I haven't seen any mention at all of nitroglycerin! It was the first energetic that I've ever made I didn't have any problems with it other than not wearing hearing protection. Take your time if you do make it though you dont want any red fumes

Fairly stable until its dry at least in my experience someone correct me if they've had otherwise.
But definitley detonate outside and never store any amateur made energetics. Just a suggestion but if you're in an area where people dont like loud bangs do it at night, nobody will know where it came from if you only do it once

Or the patient chemist would wait until July

And if you want results more tailored to you I'd include what chemicals your able to or are comfortable making and have access to.

[Edited on 10-4-2014 by PeeWee2000]

[Edited on 10-4-2014 by Bert]

Zyklon-A - 9-4-2014 at 21:44

Nitroglycerin might be safe to a certain extent, if you are very careful, and take all safety precautions, but it definitely is Not for a beginner. Also he lacks nitric acid.

[Edited on 10-4-2014 by Zyklonb]

Bert - 10-4-2014 at 05:19

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb

So you're saying to shoot at the AN-Al mixture with a gun? This I've gotta try!

He is describing a home made version of "Tannerite" exploding targets.

I would't suggest HE for a first energetic usually, but at least these do not require a blasting cap/primary explosives. And in the ratio they are mixed, you can hold a torch on a pile of the mixture and it will not burn, much safer in that regard than flash powder.

BUT!If you are too near one of these when it is shot, it will injure you, same as any other explosives.

In particular, you will find a LOT of YouTube videos showing "hard of thinking" users putting these explosives on or inside an object and blowing it up, leading to flying metal, wood, rocks or other heavy debris. Here's a news story where such idiots KILLED a man who just stopped by to watch the fun:

The idiots were standing less than 100 feet from a high explosive device inside a metal structure. For fun. WHAT could go wrong?!

Killing someone by being stupid leads to manslaughter charges

They killed this man, who had only stopped by to tend cattle pastured on the land where these people were having a party. It was father's day- His two sons were with him, and they got to see their father die.

No such thing as a "safe first energetic material"? Perhaps I should say "no such thing as a "safe first time energetic materials USER"

I say again: find an experienced person or group, learn as an apprentice.

Zyklon-A - 10-4-2014 at 09:19

Man, that's pretty sad... I of course would do it far away from anyone, I never shoot near anyone, except maybe my friends, who I shoot with.
I think NC is the best beginner's "real", explosive, ETN, is good, but only after you have had quite a bit of experience, and only in small amounts.

PeeWee2000 - 10-4-2014 at 22:13

Bert is right do your own research and take every precatuion.

Nitroglycerin was my first energetic and also my last. I found them to be unnessecarily dangerous and not worth the time, effort and risk for just a bang in the end. I took every safety precatuion except ear plugs. When I was making it I had a full 5 gallon bucket ready to douse the reaction mixture at any second if need be and while I was detonating I was wearing a full face shield and used a jury rigged remote rocket detonator and hid behind a big tree. And keep in mind this was only a couple ml of NG amount matters ALOT in energetics.

I like to see people interested in energetics and encourage them but I (stupidly as Bert pointed out

) assume they've lurked on this site as long as I and read about members and various people dying from stupidity quite frequently. Not trying to kill him just giving a suggestion of a more involved yet still doable by a novice synthesis.

GODSEND

Armistice19 - 20-7-2015 at 20:24

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999

If you would like to try something that detonates readily, silver azide is quite easy to synthesize, and detonates with slight heating. The advantage over most other primaries is the stability if stored in the dark. It is very sensitive to static, but if carefully handled it won't go off without reason, will keep well, and will be reliable when needed. It does not make large crystals when synthesized, which simplify the synthesis compared to the lead azide.

Thank God someone posted this. I have been far too fearful to attempt ANY primary, until I read this description of silver azide.

I value my fear, because complacency can kill you, but an overload of fear can kill you as well.

I find silver azide, (by your description) to be the best middle choice for me that there is right now. So thank you!

Little_Ghost_again - 31-7-2015 at 11:50

I was 15 a couple of weeks ago, I am probably 4-5 years off wanting to try things that are meant to go bang (Ive had things go bang that were not intended too!). i have had some real newb mistakes and some hairy fires/situations, so I already know I am not a natural Chemist. So with the knowledge I can sometimes take the shortcut route at the wrong time and cut the wrong corners I have started to be more realistic about what I should and shouldnt try, have a real honest talk to yourself and be honest about your abilities and methods, ask stuff like 'Am I a risk taker?', How many stupid things have I donr in six months?
Then go find a expert with as few scars and bits missing as you can (as Bert said) tell them to what degree you are unsafe and learn from them.
For me Bangs would get really dull if I couldnt hear them anymore

. Also obviously take advice from the guys here, they dont spoil fun for the sake of it but they do keep people alive.

ave369 - 31-7-2015 at 13:19

Seconding the opinion about black powder. After this seems too tame, you can try chlorate powder (potassium chlorate + carbon). It is more potent than black powder, but less safe.

softbeard - 31-7-2015 at 13:42

Quote: Originally posted by ave369

Seconding the opinion about black powder. After this seems too tame, you can try chlorate powder (potassium chlorate + carbon). It is more potent than black powder, but less safe.

Make sure you stipulate potassium chlorate + carbon only. No sulfur as per standard potassium nitrate black powder.

PHILOU Zrealone - 3-8-2015 at 09:07

Actually you may add Sulfur but then you MUST add a sulfuric acid scavenger...I used CaCO3 dust to the extend of 5%...you loose a little power but you add a lot of safety and a beautifull red-orange colour when burning

.

KClO3/C/S black powder is one of the most brisant if intimately mixed (do separately grind C/CaCO3 & S on one side and the KClO3 on the other, and avoid too energetical a mixing of the loose powdery ingredients ... remember friction and shock sensitive --> diapering).
I had 3cm diameter 1mm thickness and 3cm high copper pipe opened on both sides put on the ground with about 2 coffee spoons of that powder not pressed with a very long straw fuse...the pipe detonated and was pulverised.
A plastic straw fuse (3mm diameter) made with that powder burned like in 0.5 second for the 35cm...by chance I did a fuse pre-test...usually my fuses with black powder or NaClO3(60%)-NaCl(40%) (weed killer) /S/C/CaCO3 burned like in 10 seconds!

For a University demo at Free University of Brussels, science expo "Order and Chaos" I have boosted my NaClO3/S/C/CaCO3 with dust of silver nitrate acetylide complex...the bengal fire paper pyramid turned into a serious banger with shockwave...for the pleasure and enthousiams of chemical teachers and their pupils visiting the university open day.

I think that for beginners silver acetylide nitrate complex (Ag-C#C-Ag. x AgNO3. y HNO3)or nickel nitrate hydrazinate complex (Ni(N2H4)3(NO3)2) are easy and relatively safe energetic materials...but they must be used in tiny quantity and with good précautions...the first detonate by shock or flame in nearly all quantities 10 mg unconfined can make you deaf in a closed room; the second one only shows its power when wrapped into Aluminium foil...and submitted to heat (detonates when confined)...a 500 mg wrapped trown in an open fire will make a 30cm diameter bright fireball and propel ignited wooden parts a few meters arround with a sharp BANG...of course avoid doing this with people arround the fire!

NedsHead - 6-8-2015 at 19:09

Inspired by Grant Thompson the king of random, I've been having heaps of fun filling party balloons from a small HHO cell and attaching a homemade black powder fuse, the booms are impressively loud and deep. best of all, the suspicion is carried away from me on an air currant

ave369 - 6-8-2015 at 20:31

You can also make cheddite, it is another energetic material based on potassium chlorate. One recipe is 90:5:5 chlorate, paraffin and petroleum jelly. Also add lighter gasoline to dissolve the paraffin and jelly, which later has to be evaporated for the cheddite to solidify. It is a plastified material sensitive to strong impact.

[Edited on 7-8-2015 by ave369]

PHILOU Zrealone - 7-8-2015 at 09:03

Quote: Originally posted by ave369

You can also make cheddite, it is another energetic material based on potassium chlorate. One recipe is 90:5:5 chlorate, paraffin and petroleum jelly. Also add lighter gasoline to dissolve the paraffin and jelly, which later has to be evaporated for the cheddite to solidify. It is a plastified material sensitive to strong impact.

You need more than strong impact...a strong detonator and container are also needed.
More sensitive variant exist with nitroaromatics (Nitrobenzene, DNB, TNB, NT, DNT, TNT)...

Brom - 7-8-2015 at 19:57

I would say the best bang for a beginner would be copper thermite ignited with KMnO4 and glycerin. Although you don't synthesize it it is very satisfying with 5 micron Al and good fine CuO. you have time to get a safe distance and you can familiarize yourself with the Goldscmidt reaction and try other oxdides that may not be energetic but just as amazing.

byko3y - 7-8-2015 at 21:17

HMTD is what really impressed me and showed me what the explosivee really are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9hcfpgrDAo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtarXzf8th4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeVb__wn6aU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmT-a3zFe48

Camroc37 - 7-8-2015 at 22:18

I haven't made it, but PETN seems somewhat safe if handled carefully and in small amounts. There are many energetic compounds with stringed letters such as PETN, and there are many videos online about them. Just a thought. Silver Acetylide is also safe IF made in SMALL quantities. Here is a video on the synthesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl43G1tW0lE
Hope this helps some.
Before I get comments saying "NO, THAT IS NOT SAFE, ARE YOU STUPID?" I did say IN SMALL AMOUNTS. Don't think you can treat this stuff like pop-its.
Nitrocellulose is pretty fun as well if you want to keep it simple.

ave369 - 8-8-2015 at 03:22

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

You need more than strong impact...a strong detonator and container are also needed.
More sensitive variant exist with nitroaromatics (Nitrobenzene, DNB, TNB, NT, DNT, TNT)...

I dunno, but an acquaintance of mine showed me cheddite exploding from a Chinese firecracker stuck into it. And another ball of cheddite that went bang after being thrown from a height. Maybe it wasn't the recipe I posted, but I was under the impression that that was the case.

[Edited on 8-8-2015 by ave369]

Bert - 18-8-2015 at 17:30

Potassium chlorate based high explosives cover a VERY wide range of compositions and sensitivities-

https://books.google.com/books?id=dIdBAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA106&...

Their are good and ample reasons modern military and civil HE users make little use of chlorates.

DFliyerz - 20-8-2015 at 13:28

I'd recommend iron thermite, since it's very bright and energetic but not explosive. Also, you can light a bit of aluminum powder on it's own to get a very strange and very bright effect.