Legally developing and researching EM by collaboration

The legality of this in the USA is questionable.

There are loopholes in the system. Suppose this new structure wasn't supposed to be exposive? In front of a judge, it could be compared to something like melamine. Perhaps you were working on a new type of fire retardant when you "accidentally" discovered it was explosive instead?

Sure, the handling of explosives is regulated... but what about ammonium nitrate? You can buy it in 3kg lots by getting cases of cold packs, and somehow that slips right by regulation. So suppose this new compound was supposed to be extremely insensitive? How legal would that be?

I think you could outright get away with the legitimate development of a new energetic comound in the USA so long as you were never endangering anybody or anything other than your own property. Of course, the testing would have to be very small scale and there would be absolutely no transporting it from the point of manufacture, and storage is highly regulated if kept for more than 24h, but I do not believe there are any laws specifically regarding synthesis.

Besides, they're not just going to throw someone in jail for routinely synthesizing a novel and unpatented compound in amounts too small to harm much of anything, or transporting very dilute, virtually inert solutions of said compounds in NMR tubes to the local univeristy. Even if they found something to charge you with, you could talk your way out of it in court. The reason these things are illegal is because nobody wants to be blown up by their neighbor, and nobody wants to let kids become domestic terrorists without some sort of governmental threat to deter that.

Bottom line: As long as you are researching the material and not its applications, you make and have on hand less than 10-ish grams at any one time, you take great safey precautions yourself, you make sure your neighbors and house guests are in absolutely zero danger, your neighbors do not hear or see or smell anything, you aren't creating or releasing hazardous waste, and this is all for the benefit of something for the defense of the country... I do not see a problem. So, do that and keep a well-written lab notebook and everthing will be fine.

Remember, the laws are in place to prevent people from hurting each other. If you can prove that your methods could never hurt anyone, it's not against the principal behind the law.

That said, I already do this. I'm currently working on the di(triaminoguanidinium) salt of bis(2,2-dinitroethyl)nitramine in the footsteps of Klapötke. Progress is good.

[EDIT] This does seem more relevant to L&S Issues unless we eventually get some data on this compound.

[Edited on 22-4-2014 by Praxichys]

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

All of my previous blather is under the premise that you are conducting your research individually or collaborating over the internet with someone else. As mentioned, "no harm to neighbors, houseguests, etc" which includes fellow collaborators. Otherwise you might be on the hook for something. I tried to get my HE license about a year ago but I fail the "75 feet to an occupied dwelling" criteria for the magazine by about five feet, even though it is effectively barricaded (basement!) and the proposed amounts were too small to be of virtually any concern. Rules are rules, I guess.

Quote: Originally posted by Davin

Show the structure, and I can let you know if this is worth going forward with.

If I post the structure and my proposed synthetic methodology, do I not shoot myself in the foot in that establishments set up to do this kind of research legally will not be interested because it has become knowledge in the public domain and so there is no incentive for them to do the development anymore.

In South Africa, even universities lose interest in collaborating if the information is released into the public domain

Sad state of affairs, I agree, but what can/should one do?

...of course you will be able to make explosive without licence if you live in a "BANANA" republic

Dany.

Okay okay... here it is...

Dany

Okay guys, I will do as I have always done then in the past, be open about my inventions, I just hope that I'm not going to get too many "oh we could have helped but now... "

Anyhow, yes chances are slim that it's novel I agree, but if anyone ever makes something from this, I'd appreciate a remembrance

Ok, the compound I am thinking of is hexanitro-hexaradialene (HNHR) and my proposed synthetic methodology for preparing it would start with hydroquinone, nitromethane, air and catalytic amounts of NO₂.

While I don't have a specific reference for this, my musings are based on a couple of published info, one of which is a patent for preparing tetrachlorobenzoquinone from HCl and peroxide, the other another paper for oxidising hydroquinone with oxygen under ambient condition using only catalytic amounts of NO₂ and a nonpolar solvent... hold on, I'll try to locate and attach...



Ah good old Erowid... here are the papers about using NOx as a catalyst to oxidise hydroquinone simply and qualitatively with O₂ (I assume air works as well).

J. Org. Chem. 59, 2529-2536 (1994),
Tet. Lett. 35(9) 1335-1338 (1994)

...and here's the patent about making chloranil:

https://www.google.com/patents/US5334735?dq=chloranil+hydrog...

Hopefully this link goes to a patent and not porn

Chemsketch predicts a density of 2.274 ± 0.06 g/cm3 (I assume by a group contribution method), but to be honest, I think something in the 1.9's would be more realistic!

[Edited on 22-4-2014 by deltaH]

After 19 posts your are offering this molecule????? dear deltaH, go back to chemistry in general forum....

a pernitrated radialene has been proposed by franklyn 3 years ago, read here

Dany.


[Edited on 22-4-2014 by Dany]

Quote: Originally posted by Dany

After 19 posts your are offering this molecule????? dear deltaH, go back to chemistry in general forum.... a pernitrated radialene has been proposed by franklyn 3 years ago, read here Dany. [Edited on 22-4-2014 by Dany]

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

Quote: Originally posted by Dany   After 19 posts your are offering this molecule????? dear deltaH, go back to chemistry in general forum.... a pernitrated radialene has been proposed by franklyn 3 years ago, read here Dany. [Edited on 22-4-2014 by Dany] Yes hexanitroderivative would be less interesting than the dodecanitroderivative. Anyway DeltaH, it is a good idea, and I had related ideas starting from chloranile...and from nitranilic acid derived from it via NaNO2 (the 4 chlorines are replaced by nitros and two rearrange to nitrite ester of phenol and spontaneously hydrolise into phenol to get dinitro-dihydroxy-p-quinone...the chlorine atoms are very easily exchanged by azide anions from NaN3. Ideas are: -Reaction with hydrazine and oxoacid salts of the polyhydrazine; diazotation to make polyazidobenzene. -Reaction with hydroxylamine -Reaction with nitromethane and eventual nitrosation -Reaction with nitroform The results of those reactions can go in many directions but all products are very interesting HE with possible high detonic properties (density, VOD, brisance).

Dany.

deltaH, PHILOU know exactly what i'm talking about....

back to the thread here, any unreferenced information has no scientific value to me...it will only amuse me...

Dany.

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

Yes hexanitroderivative would be less interesting than the dodecanitroderivative.

This is simply unreferenced speculation (Dany )...but I would wonder if the hexanitro may be more interesting than the dodecanitro....neither will be completely planar as a result of C-H and N-O or N-O and N-O crowding, but due to the potential formation of C-H^...O which should be a more favorable interaction than two nitro group oxygens repelling each other, the dodecanitro may have a torsion angle of the nitros relative to the ring that is further from planar than in the hexanitro. But if your synthesis methodology works, it would be easy enough to try both flavours.

I am without a mass spec currently, but may give it a shot eventually when my plate is far less full.

[Edited on 23-4-2014 by Davin]

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH

You've just made 1000 posts PHILOU, congrats!

I was so busy writting replies to posts that I didn't noticed it . Thank you DeltaH, you made my day!

Quote: Originally posted by Dany

deltaH, PHILOU know exactly what i'm talking about.... back to the thread here, any unreferenced information has no scientific value to me...it will only amuse me... Dany.

No fight! There is room in this forum for everybody to post ones idea, refexion, criticism and theorems .

Indeed I know exactly what Dany refers to. I'm working on the writing to make it understandable. The concept is to explain the all process that lead to the theorical concept and the conclusion that ended to a theorem.

I think that the process is even so important than the theorem.
At first I thought I would make the writing by step by step postings...but replies from other posters would interfere with the general overview...so I prefer to put it in a single post (if it succeeds ).

"any unreferenced information has no scientific value to me...it will only amuse me..."
Amusement/Fun is a good first step; but how do you do when there is no reference yet and only reproductible experiments ...then I guess you won't accept autoreference because it would be intrinsically partial and biased science proof (Just kidding).

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH

I second that Dany, PHILOU that really needs thread dedicated to it! I have another musing concerning quinone that I will also post soon, I think there is much scope for EM and quinone and perhaps a little overlooked.

Every idea or group of ideas would need specific tread...this forum offers enough room for that.

As explained to DAR:
You have certainly noticed that the more you know about chemistry of Energetic materials, the more you get ideas in an exponential fashion from a single idea...most of those ideas are not investigated yet because the field is so vast.

Quote: Originally posted by Davin

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone   Yes hexanitroderivative would be less interesting than the dodecanitroderivative. This is simply unreferenced speculation (Dany )...but I would wonder if the hexanitro may be more interesting than the dodecanitro....neither will be completely planar as a result of C-H and N-O or N-O and N-O crowding, but due to the potential formation of C-H...O which should be a more favorable interaction than two nitro group oxygens repelling each other, the dodecanitro may have a torsion angle of the nitros relative to the ring that is further from planar than in the hexanitro. But if your synthesis methodology works, it would be easy enough to try both flavours. I am without a mass spec currently, but may give it a shot eventually when my plate is far less full. [Edited on 23-4-2014 by Davin]

In the original pernitro-radialene tread from Franklyn (nitrocarbon), I mentionned:
"Also radialene must be quite unstable and prompt to rearrange into a central aromatic ring and 3 cyclobutane rings between C1 and C2, C3 and C4 and between C5 and C6.
The very same may happen with our putative dodecanitroradialene??"



This would preclude any inter-nitro steric hindrance.

[Edited on 23-4-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]