Sciencemadness Discussion Board - storage of chemicals

storage of chemicals

frogfot - 18-1-2005 at 01:52

How do you all store your chemicals? At home/basemant/specially designed room?

Reason I'm asking is because, living in an appartment, I can't find a good way to store them.. Currently I have most organics and volatile chems in basemant and inorganics is stored at home. For some reason, the locker with inorganics stinks so I'm planning to do something about this..

I know that storing stuff in basemant can't be good though it's not visited that often by anyone and there are no living things for longer periods of time (except for an occasional spider).

One alternative I was planning is to make an airtight locker in the basemant for all chems. The locker will have 4 small open jars with Na2CO3 (take care of volatile acids), citric acid (for volatile bases), activated carbon (for creepy organics) and CaCl2 (optional drying). The locker will have an valve with exit through a carbon filter..
When experimenting I'll just take what needed and return it when finished..
Do you think this is practical?

Another (scary) alternative is to stop all home experimenting and only do the chemistry at university..

Although my home and university chemistry differ quite alot.. first is basically some simple and practical reactions with household chems (to write about on homepage). The second is obviously more advanced.

cyclonite4 - 18-1-2005 at 03:12

I usually leave all my chemicals in airtight glass jars (I use PTFE to make a airtight grip). The glass jars are labelled and stacked in rows.

An airtight locker sounds good. Your design sounds fairly practical. Maybe you could even add a temperature control?

As for drying, isn't CaCl2 deliquescent (meaning it will absorb enough water to put itself in solution)? This would result in an eventual puddle of CaCl2 solution, which may be inconvenient. If you can afford/find Mg(ClO4)2, that would make a great dehydrator.

neutrino - 18-1-2005 at 03:19

You simply drain the puddle away as it forms. For example, you could put your granules on a mesh with a cavity underneath so all of your liquid drains away, leaving your granules to pick up more water.

frogfot - 18-1-2005 at 09:25

You mean temp control to detect fire and warn?.. Otherwise, the temp in basemant is pretty constant (15-20*C) so chems will do fine.

About the design.. I was thinking to have usual wooden locker, painted with some fairly chem resistant paint which will also make it more airtight. Then apply some silicone sealant to form the gasket for the door (this may take some while to make it right).

jimwig - 18-1-2005 at 09:43

i have searched for some sort of chart ref for the longevity and or storage characteristics of chemicals. unsuccesfully.

seems like many factors enter into the equation -- oxidation, containers, etc. so the variables would be immense.

anyone know of a such a listing online etc.?

thalium - 18-1-2005 at 13:34

Storing your chems in the basement of the building sounds a little bit creepy to me because that's a place where everyone in the building can go, including cleaning persons and people from utilities. You can't know who's going to look aroun (some people have sick curiosities

). The rest of your plan sound good. If you have a little room (like a storage room) in your apartment that you don't need you can use it. I live in an apartment too and I use the storage room. I didn't find such listing as jimwig said (not online - I'll search further).

Sandmeyer - 18-1-2005 at 14:23

i have most of the stuff under a big bed, but I consider to buy a small freezer for storage of solvents and the like... I wouldn't mind having the stuff in a freezer along with food, but I don't live alone. A big, working second-hand freezer combined with a frige could be purchased very cheaply.

[Edited on 18-1-2005 by Sandmeyer]

runlabrun - 18-1-2005 at 16:32

I have an old fridge for solvents and other volitiles so the fumes are kept to a minimum, i bought a large amount of glass schott bottles from a closing down lab which had been cleaned and autoclaved so they are safe for re-use which they are all stored in, these provide a excellent seal against fumes.
Other non-volitile materials are in my shed on shelves seperated by catagory as per msds documentation... Away from incompatabilities.

-rlr

Semi Microscale For Homelab

FloridaAlchemist - 18-1-2005 at 18:23

I do all my chemical experiments on a semi-microscale, that way a minimum of space and equipment is needed.
Instead of storing large quantities of solvents and chemicals I try and keep them in 120g or 250ml sizes or less.

BromicAcid - 18-1-2005 at 21:22

All my storage is in an outside shed that I have, it never smells on the inside because it has plenty of air circulation. I keep some things inside but not much.

I'd be nice if you could just get something like a video cabinet with a lock and key, use some rubber gasket to put a somewhat airtight seal around the doors, then put it up against some wall that connects to the outside, drill a hole behind it and run a pipe to vent outside continuously so nothing smelled, but then again they don't like you drilling holes through walls in apartments, maybe you could vent through the same opening as an air conditioner or something, then again the air conditioner might kick on followed by a spark igniting exit gasses and flashing into the cabinet blowing it apart.

If the cabinet were sealed to the entrance or exit of air I really don't see the need for a desiccant, sodium bicarbonate for odors and acid along with some activated carbon possibly. It's not like all of your chemicals have to go in one storage place, many of them might have normal places they belong in a house after all.

Magpie - 18-1-2005 at 23:31

I currently have my solvents stored in a plastic shed outside but too near the house. However, I keep my lawnmower gasoline in the garage which is not good as that is where my gas furnace is for home heating. This spring I plan to build a small fireproof outbuilding of concrete block at least 20 feet from my house for solvent storage along with the lawnmower. It will be well ventilated via natural convection. I'm just working out my plans for the other chemicals. Basically I want to keep incompatibles separated as much as possible. All bottles with liquids will have double containment (plastic tubs). My sulfuric acid is triple contained.

cyclonite4 - 19-1-2005 at 00:32

Thats actually a pretty good idea neutrino, it would most likely optimise water absorption rates when compared to other dehydrators.

The cabinet I store my chemicals in is a a small lockable wooden cupboard, it also functions as a spare table as well.

frogfot - 19-1-2005 at 08:11

Thalium, my basemant room is closed so any curious person should brake in to come in

My main concern is to prevent people from breathing in my toxic crap..

The basemant is designed this way: a main corridor (with curious people), then a locked door to a room which is separated by wooden walls into several little rooms (me having one of them). Whole room have ventilation exit outside, though it is positioned long from me..

Hearing that several of you store chems outside, it seems to be the perfect solution.. I'll by a metal or plastic locker and place it on balcony. I thoat about this earlier but rejected idea because of winter/summer temperature changes. But thinking about this again, temp in Sweden rarely goes lower than -10 and higher than 30*C. Probably the best way to protect locker from direct sunlight is painting it white

The only things I have that can freeze at winter are acetic acid and dioxane.

This sounds like a more simple solution. I wouldn't even need to make it airtight (but I probably will due to paranoia). Most probably I'll also make different compartments for acids and bases.

Btw, storing some "household" chems at home showed to be not that good idea. Couple of years ago I had 30% HCl stored in my room (in original storebought bottle) and as result, after couple of months, strings on my guitar became very rusty

Thanks for lots of ideas.

[Edited on 19-1-2005 by frogfot]

The_Davster - 2-9-2005 at 22:18

This is partially related to chemical storage; proper labeling. Does anyone know of any sites/programs that allow one to print off full labels for chemical storage bottles? Just to make it even more legal and more professional looking.

Magpie - 3-9-2005 at 12:36

I changed my mind about building a concrete block storage shed 20 feet (~7m) from my house. I compromised building a plastic shed 3m from my house. I have kept my solvents (acetone, gasoline, paint thinner, toluene, camp stove fuel) and acids (HCl, H2SO4) out there all summer with no problems. I have only passive ventilation but hardly smell a thing when I walk in.

I have worried some about how I will store diethyl ether as it has such a high vapor pressure. I do not want to keep it in a refrigerator based on the experience one forum member had (unionized I think) where a thermostat caused it to explode. I'm thinking a covered pit in my back yard about 0.7m deep would be ideal. In my locale this would stay about 60 degrees F (15 C) all year round. It would be like the root cellars of old.

Fleaker - 3-9-2005 at 14:14

Well you're not supposed to store diethyl ether for that long anyways. According to the Flinn scientific safety manual, 12 months maximum storage. I'm sure they're being overly cautious, should be fine in an amber bottle with a little copper wire in it.

I have no idea how a closed bottle of ether in a refrigerator could have exploded from electrical sparking of the thermostat.

Magpie - 3-9-2005 at 15:01

See Unionised's posts in this thread:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3915

The warning is clear.

[Edited on 3-9-2005 by Magpie]

Taaie-Neuskoek - 4-9-2005 at 01:38

Quote:

Well you're not supposed to store diethyl ether for that long anyways. According to the Flinn scientific safety manual, 12 months maximum storage. I'm sure they're being overly cautious, should be fine in an amber bottle with a little copper wire in it.

Hmm, I recently obtained some diethyl ether of an unknows age, but I am rather sure that it alsready stand there for a couple of years...
I didn't plan to do destillations with the stuff, but is tossing at this point some cupperwire in a good idea to remove/prevent any peroxides?

I have all my solids stored in a big iron cupboard, on alphabet of course, otherwise I cannot find anything back...
This is all except for the aluminiumpowder I have, I keep that apart because the stuff is so damn dusty! After I've handled it I looked like a robot

...

The liquids are stored separatly in plastic containers, acids apart from bases, organics apart, and a small container for aromatics.
I use the so called 'curver boxes', if one might know them, they are made of thick plastic.
On the bottom of each container I put some newspapers, so I can see if one of the bottles is leaking...
Hydrogen peroxide has a special place in my lab.
I have my lab in the cellar, but it is a cellar with openings on 2 sides, so there is some ventilation as I am on the far end, where 3 doors can be opened. This part of the cellar is completely of concrete.

How do most of you store 95+% HNO3? I've had it in a erlenmeyer with a glass stopper in it, but it leaked small amounts of HNO3 to the outside, with and without teflontape between the joints. Now I have it in a brown bottle with a teflon insert in the cap, and lately I checked for leaks, and the newspaper under it was wet as was the outside of the bottle!!
How to store this strength of HNO3 in a proper way?

[Edited on 4-9-2005 by Taaie-Neuskoek]

neutrino - 4-9-2005 at 07:13

Copper won't destroy peroxides that are already in your ether. See Vogel for information on that.

catfish - 5-9-2005 at 06:30

This is a good thread.
I use plastic coolers for my stuff...contains leaks and is fairly airtight.
Yeah, storing HCl is tough...got to wrap the cap with tape and even then it still leaks a little.

Chris The Great - 5-9-2005 at 13:54

I have my ether in a 500mL jam jar, with a plastic lid. To give it a good seal, I put a plastic ziplock bag over it and then screwed on the lid as tight as I can. It has been sitting with my other chems for several months and has barely evaporated (I think there is a little less in the jar, as the lid wasn't on as tight as possible for a month, after that it seemed to stay at the same level) in the 35*C summer weather I got, although it only got to 25 to 30*C inside the shed. The plastic lid bulges up, but they do that with toluene as well. It doesn't actually weaken the plastic lids, and the polyethylene is holding up fine. So, no, it's not perfect, or even close to it, but it works.

Fleaker - 5-9-2005 at 14:22

Taaie-Neuskoek

I find the best way to store 95% fuming nitric is in a thick walled bottle with a tight ground glass penny head stopper. I wrap teflon tape around it to seal it even better. The HNO3 was sitting in a pear shaped receiving flask (w/ 24/40 stopper). Concentrated nitric doesn't agree with a phenolic cap, even one with a teflon insert, rest assured, it will eat through, just a matter of time.

Also, elemental bromine doesn't seem to like it either. I had about 40mL in a small amber glass bottle with teflon tape on the inside, a teflon insert for the phenolic cap, and even a thick coating of paraffin on the outside. The bromine really had its way with the cap. Left a sticky goo and literally the cap was like swiss cheese. I know BromicAcid has a good store of bromine, anyone else? I have a really good bottle to recommend to you all.

S.C. Wack - 5-9-2005 at 15:54

Cu definitely does something with impure ether, what it is or what is not to be recommended of it, I don't know. Once I made a fair amount, but no spare electrical cord or whatever Cu wire was on hand after distillation. I took no precautions against air or light and put it in an oversized container. A few days later I added Cu shavings, from ACR tubing. The gas evolution was immediate and freaky. The shavings went from bright to oxidized. I did not test for peroxide afterwards, though.

neutrino - 5-9-2005 at 17:21

I may as well add my two cents on this subject.

I have a small amount of bromine—2 mL—in an improvised vial. As far as I can tell, absolutely none has leaked out and the cap is in good condition.

Making these vials is a bit of an art. First, you start with one of these. Next, you work the rubber out of the cap with a good pair of tweezers. Now comes the fun part: cut discs of exactly the right size and shape out of some pliable plastic to fill the cavity where the rubber was. Then, cut a disc of exactly the right size out of teflon sheet. The shape is a circle with a small notch in it, the size...well, I can't really describe it. Finally, get the teflon disc into the bottom of the cap by screwing the cap's threading down through that notch. If all goes well, you'll have a leakproof cap.

One more thing: a pair of nail clippers is a godsend for working with that sheet.

kbk666 - 11-9-2005 at 16:38

I have most of my chemicals out in the garage..Where they will stay until winter sets in. Then my workshop will still be out there but I wanna make sure nothing freezes or whatever.

The_Davster - 11-9-2005 at 16:42

Neutrino, where were you able to get teflon sheet?

neutrino - 11-9-2005 at 19:14

I got thin (~1mm) sheet as part of an eBay auction. Look there for Teflon or PTFE.

edit: Yay, 1000th post

[Edited on 12-9-2005 by neutrino]

garage chemist - 20-11-2005 at 13:21

It's starting to get really cold outside (already below zero in the night, and hardly above 5°C during daytime), and my chems are in my garage which is noninsulated and not heated.

My glacial acetic acid froze long ago (as you would expect... but it is very prone to supercooling) and today I looked after my benzene (analytical grade, very pure) and it was completely solid too.
However, I warmed the bottle and the frozen benzene did not swim on the liquid, but rather was on the bottom!
This proves that solid benzene has a higher density than liquid benzene, and that benzene contracts during freezing instead of expanding.
This further proves that there is no danger of a glass bottle with benzene rupturing when freezing.

Same goes for glacial acetic acid- frozen acetic acid sinks in liquid acetic acid.

The well- known destructive force of freezing water is reserved to water itself. It is an anomaly that only water possesses. Most other chems increase their density when freezing, posing no danger.

12AX7 - 20-11-2005 at 14:00

Quote:

Originally posted by garage chemistThe well- known destructive force of freezing water is reserved to water itself.

And bismuth. (And a number of other curious chemicals.)

Tim

garage chemist - 20-11-2005 at 14:49

Yes, you're right about bismuth. But that is no problem, of course, unless you normally store it molten.

But now I remember something curious I noticed during an experiment- molten anhydrous potassium acetate, when solidifying, forms a crystal crust which always gets a hole in it where liquid material oozes out! It looked really strange and that's why I remember it. Maybe CH3COOK also has this anomaly.

[Edited on 20-11-2005 by garage chemist]

Zinc - 12-7-2006 at 13:16

I store all my chemicals in my home lab in their original packages.

Jdurg - 16-7-2006 at 18:50

BTW, just thought I'd point out that even if it is sealed in a glass ampoule, halogens will leach through it somewhat. I noticed today that the box I store my F2, Cl2, Br2 and I2 in had a funky bleach-like odor to it when I opened up the lid. While there is no noticeable breach on any part of the glass, when you put your nose near the glass you can smell some halogen coming out. So keep that in mind when you think about where to store your halogens.

woelen - 16-7-2006 at 23:12

Hmmm, this does not sound good. How thick is that glass from these containers? I have two 30 year old glass ampoules with bromine (each one contains 250 ml of reagent grade bromine). I do not have the idea that any bromine leached out, the glass also still looks perfectly clear, but I'll stick my nose in the containers, in which I store these, to see whether there is smell or not.

neutrino - 17-7-2006 at 06:23

What kind of glass? I could see liquid bromine eating its way out of soda-lime over a very long time period.

Jdurg - 17-7-2006 at 13:05

These are standard, borosilicate glass test tubes that have been melted shut on one end to seal in the halogen. It's frustrating because I figured that they would be able to hold in the halogen without any issues. I will admit, however, that the amount of halogen leaking out isn't all that great since I have a lot of stuff in the same area that aren't showing one bit of corrosion. (I keep an ingot of .999 pure silver in the box as a way to tell if there is major leaking going on). It is definitely noticeable and I cannot tell if it is the iodine or the bromine that is leaking. It doesn't have that skunk smell like Br2 has so I'm leaning more towards the iodine.

The iodine had melted into a liquid while the sealing process was going on, so I don't know if the liquid I2 had slowly worked its way into the glass and is now very slowly leaching away. The human nose is VERY good at smelling halogens in low concentrations, so I'm not mortified that I can smell it. I'm just a bit shocked and hoping that it's not a sign of a sudden failure in an ampoule.

Fleaker - 18-7-2006 at 09:27

"BTW, just thought I'd point out that even if it is sealed in a glass ampoule, halogens will leach through it somewhat. I noticed today that the box I store my F2, Cl2, Br2 and I2 in had a funky bleach-like odor to it when I opened up the lid. While there is no noticeable breach on any part of the glass, when you put your nose near the glass you can smell some halogen coming out. So keep that in mind when you think about where to store your halogens. "

Perhaps it's the fluorine gas eating through the glass? On Theodore Gray's website, there is a picture of fluorine gas ampouled. It's my understanding that if the fluorine is not absolutely anhydrous, it will corrode glass easily.

Here is that link: http://theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Elements/009/index.s7....

The_Davster - 18-7-2006 at 14:05

Someone here posted something about heating a glass tube which had once been used to distill bromine, and bromine that was trapped in the glass was given off. If bromine can be trapped in glass for years, is it so unrealistic that it could go all the way through an ampoule?

Jdurg - 19-7-2006 at 17:12

Quote:

Originally posted by rogue chemist
Someone here posted something about heating a glass tube which had once been used to distill bromine, and bromine that was trapped in the glass was given off. If bromine can be trapped in glass for years, is it so unrealistic that it could go all the way through an ampoule?

I think that was actually me who had mentioned that.

Upon a more thorough inspection, I have determined that it is indeed the bromine which is slowly seeping through the glass. I have been able to identify a slight odor coming out from where the glass ampoule was sealed. I plan on covering that area in some type of sealant to see if that will retard the odors. It's not anything really bad that has me completely worried. The metals that are in the area aren't corroded at all. It's just that when I can smell the halogens after figuring that I had them sealed away for ever it kind of pissed me off.

neutrino - 19-7-2006 at 18:47

It sounds to me like you might have a small hole in that seal.

For those who have never tried it, sealing bromine in a glass ampoule is rather tricky. Unless you leave a lot of space between the seal and the bromine and work very quickly, you will heat the bromine up a little. If it is already at room temperature, this small temperature increase will increase its vapor pressure by a good fraction of an atmosphere.

If the glass gets hot enough for a proper seal, it will seal but then the expanding vapor will cause the molten glass to pop. A very big bubble with a small (but probably still visible) hole will remain.

But if the glass doesn’t get hot and fluid enough, a small but steady stream of bromine vapor will flow through the hole you’re trying to close and (combined with the high viscosity of the glass) prevent the seal from closing properly. In the times I have tried it it always left a visible hole, but your case may be different.

The_Davster - 19-7-2006 at 21:58

I was actually thinking of trying this in the lab I work at, I have keys, so I can go in late and have fun...I mean...get ahead in my research...

But I was thinking of using LN2 to freeze the bromine in the glass tube, then seal it. Would the pressure increase after it melts be too great for the quartz glass tube to take? We use an oxy-hydrogen torch, so it takes very little time to melt the quartz glass tubes.

[Edited on 20-7-2006 by rogue chemist]

neutrino - 20-7-2006 at 06:55

As long as it stays cool and its vapor pressure can't increase dramatically, you won't have a problem. Just make sure the bromine stays cool (frozen if possible), work fast, and get the quartz fluid enough for a proper seal.

You probably already know this, but eye protection is a must with quartz. By the time it's fluid it's putting out a very high flux of visible and IR radiation. If you have a brazing mask, wear it.

YT2095 - 20-7-2006 at 07:54

Hey JDurg

another idea for you to consider (It`s one I use myself) is if you have glass tubing, the sort I have is 50cms lond and 6mm ID. I melt the one end letting the fluidity and Gravity do all the work for me until I`m satisfied with the seal after cooling.
I Then cut the excess tube off leaving my vial with a good 40mm extra than I need.
Introduce your element (fill with inert gas where applicable), and then heat the area outside the vial at the 40mm extra mark, as it softens a GENTLE twisting action (if you feel resistance your putting on too much pressure! you`ll create your seal.
heat a little upwards now towards the excess in the 40mm, and again gently pull the glass appart, similar making a pipette/eyedropper, when that`s gone out the way heat the peak left on your vial, again letting gravity do the work until it forms a nice thick dome.

allow to cool

obviously with bromine the same thing applies but you`ll need some sort of Ice/freezing pack around your bromine level and a little above to keep it at least Liquid.

it works for me anyway, Good Luck

Jdurg - 21-7-2006 at 14:15

I'm certain that there is no hole as for the first 1.5 to 2 years there was absolutely NO odor at all. It's only recently that I noticed the faintest of faint smells. When it's kept inside the storage box nothing escapes odor wise so I'm not completely worried about it. It's more of a "damn it" type of thing than an "OH SHIT!!!!!!"

froot - 24-7-2006 at 02:33

I have been pondering this very issue for a while now. As my chemical collection grows, so does the potential danger.
At the moment I have my chems in my garage which is downstairs under the house. They are in an old steel kitchen cupboard and everything is together. Now there is a huge red light flashing in my mind.

Proper storage of chemicals in a residential area is never that important until something goes wrong and hindsight is a pain in the ass.

I am planning to make a well ventilated outside shed detached from the house out of an inert substance such as asbestos sheeting, yes we still get that here. I'm thinking of a worst case scenario where 2 incompatable chems come in contact with each other and ignite, setting the rest of the store alight along with the other chems. That is a real sobering thought and can very easily happen.

As far as storing chems together, does this sound correct?.....

Primary acids together,
seperated from
Primary bases together,
seperated from
Organics together (including solvents),
seperated from
Inorganics and metals together

Please advise if necessary...

Oh and one more thing...a fire extinguisher is like a parachute, a godsend when you need one. What type would you recommend?

[Edited on 24-7-2006 by froot]

YT2095 - 24-7-2006 at 02:41

that`s not a bad way to do it either

I tend to go for a more simplified version, and keep Oxidisers away from Reducers.

woelen - 24-7-2006 at 03:44

Jdurg, a very easy and safe way to absolutely have no bromine around is to store the ampoule of bromine (and also of iodine, chlorine) in a box, in which also some sodium thiosulphate is stored (so-called hypo). Sodium thiosulphate is air-stable and non-hygroscopic, but it reacts quickly with even the tiniest traces of free halogen.

I have taken a film-canister for 24x36 mm standard photo-film, put this half full of solid crystalline Na2S2O3.5H2O (fairly large crystals, well over 1 mm diameter) and made hundreds of small holes in the canister with a thin needle. This canister I store in a simple tupperware-like plastic box, together with my halogens. It works very good. No smell of halogens at all. Any halogen, which is released, will be absorbed by the hypo. In your case with the sealed ampoules, you will never have to replace that canister, it will last for many many years.

In fact, the large 250 ml ampoules of bromine, I had, were shipped in big plastic jugs, together with 1 kg of sodium thiosulfate in a special woven bag, which allows air/gases to pass, while the crystals stay inside. In case of an accident, where lots of bromine gas could be released, it quickly is absorbed by that hypo.

Froot, I would, as YT2095 mentioned, also keep oxidizers and reductors separate. Then you have the following compartments:

- Acids
- Bases
- Organics, liquid
- Oxidizers
- Reductors
- Generic solids

The reductors and generic solids can fairly safely be combined. That is what I do. I also separately store my 30% H2O2, as a lone bottle, away from anything else.

I also use stock storage and usage storage. From my chemicals, I always take a small portion, put that in a photo roll canister, and I store the original container separately, sometimes with plastic bags around them, or the container stored in a larger separate container. That latter thing I do is to prevent fresh air going in and out all the time the temperature changes. Especially carefully closed plastic bags around the container have proven very useful. They shrink and expand with changing temperatures, but the air in them is only very slowly replaced. In this way, I have been able to keep a sensitive chemical like Na2S very good for many years, while Na2S from the same original container, but stored in a normal container, now is covered with a thick oxidized layer of Na2SO3/Na2SO4/Na2S2O3.

Of course, I only do this extensive packaging for my stock storage. The working canisters are placed, such that they can easily be grasped and opened.

[Edited on 24-7-06 by woelen]

The_Davster - 24-7-2006 at 05:20

The chemicals in my lab are organized as such:
Acids
Bases
oxidizers
general inorganic
organic
metals are in a completly different cabinet, you know, keep them shiny.
Outside: Big solvent cans, assorted nasties(phenol, WCl6)

Potentially very dangerous acids, like my perchloric, is in a margaine tub should it ever leak, and to keep its 'acid ring' separate from other acid rings.

I dispense acids into smaller ground glass bottles to avoid handling the big jugs all the time.

froot - 24-7-2006 at 06:17

I keep my U235 in the fridge, keeps the food fresh for ages

Thanks for the input, arrangement of storage modified...

I like the idea of placing the bulk storage bottles in plastic bags, makes good sense. I'm actually too embarassed to tell you whats currently sitting together in the same cupboard, which will be remedied as soon as I get home this afternoon.

YT2095 - 24-7-2006 at 07:10

just out of pure curiosity here, might there be some sort of backhanded Logic in storing acids AND bases together?

neutrino - 24-7-2006 at 09:42

Imagine if a large container of sulfuric acid burst and started attacking a container of a strong base. If it got through, the resulting reaction would release large amounts of energy, producing lots of heat, gas, foaming acid, etc. It would be somewhat neutralized at the end of all this, but the energy released would cause a lot of damage.

The_Davster - 19-8-2006 at 16:21

I recently got some acids in bulk(bulk to me as I do stuff pretty small scale) but am out of storage in the lab cupboard.
For nitric, sulfuric and hdrochloric I plan to wrap all the caps in teflon tape, place the 2.5L jug in a plastic bag which will be sealed well. Then place this bag in a plastic drum with some bicarb in the bottom to react with any vapours. Have to do all this as the temp in the garage ranges so widely that storage of an acid like nitric would cause excessive decomposition. These drums will then be in my closet as I am running out of storage space elsewhere, and as such I can't have much acid vapour in the room I sleep in.
Thoughts?

I once had all my chems in my room for one night as a service person was coming, day after I had a sore throat.

EDIT: should mention this is for long term storage, I won't be opening and closing these acid bottles much if at all, I have other acid in the lab for use.

[Edited on 20-8-2006 by rogue chemist]

Magpie - 19-8-2006 at 18:19

I have found muriatic acid (37%HCl) to be a particularly tough chemical to store. I have it stored in its original plastic bottle placed in a 5-gallon plastic bucket for double containment. A while back I noticed that steel surfaces in my poorly vented shed were rusted. So I bought a plastic funnel that fit up to the bucket lid bung tightly. In this funnel I placed some fiberglass insulation as a porous support then covered this with 1-2 cm of NaHCO3. This serves as a breather filter for the bucket while hopefully not letting any HCl gas vent into the shed.

I had iodine crystals in a ground glass stoppered jar and thought they were being contained. But the weather this summer was apparently too hot and I found a yellow deposit/reaction on the shelving. I have sent for some teflon lined 125mL wide-mouth jars which will be tried next. In the meantime it is stored in my freezer. I should get some sodium thiosulfate as a backup as recommended by Woelen.

The_Davster - 19-8-2006 at 18:54

Well as HCl has a melting point of -25C, I should be able to store it in the garage for most of the year minus the one or two weeks a year it gets down to -30. I don't think the garage would get as cold as the outside. Nitric must be stored indoors as it does not handle temperature variations well, especially hot summer weather. Sulfuric being nonvolatile can go inside easily, and since it freezes at -4 should not be outside at all.

Hmm, I could only find 5 gal buckets, kind of big for a 2.5L jug of acid, but If I can't find anything else....

As for iodine, I grabbed an empty bottle once used for iodine out of my universitiy's trash and put my iodine in it. I wrapped a kleenex around the lid to see if the iodine excapes, and so far the kleenex is pure white. The lid did not look any different from normal lids... I keep the bottle of iodine in a ziplock baggie as well.

thalium - 20-8-2006 at 09:43

what about phenol? I read that it melts at +41/45 C, but once I kept it outside for about 10 minutes at 35 C and it turned liquid, when it's not in use it stays in the freezer. At what temp. does it actually melt? Anyone with the same problem?

not_important - 20-8-2006 at 09:46

A rather small amount of water noticeably lowers the melting point of phenol.

woelen - 20-8-2006 at 13:04

I have some 90% phenol (the rest is water) and this is liquid, also at temperatures of 10 C. Phenol tends to become red quickly, when oxygen can come in contact with the liquid. Even in a very well closed bottle, when it is opened a few times and closed again, then it turns red already. It appaently is very sensitive to aerial oxidation and the oxidation products are very strongly colored.

I would suggest to take a very small part of the phenol from its original container and use that for experiments, and the original container then is stored in a very well closed larger container, with a plastic bag around it. In this way, only the small amount, intended for immediate use, is exposed to oxygen every time when it is opened, your stock then remains good and only is opened once, when your small amount is used up and needs to be refilled.

I use this tactic for many air-sensitive chemicals (e.g. Na2S.xH2O, VOSO4.xH2O, NaCN, CuCl, phenol, aniline, ...).

The_Davster - 20-8-2006 at 20:06

Luckily solid phenol does not suffer from the oxidation problem. I have seen literally dozens of old phenol bottles with phenol in perfect condition, just sublimated and deposited on the sides of the container.

NaCN air sensitive? What hydrolysis with the water in the air to HCN? Always though it stable, but I do not have any.

12AX7 - 20-8-2006 at 20:20

Doesn't cyanide oxidize to cyanate (-OCN)? Hence bleach somewhat deactivating cyanide..

Tim

not_important - 20-8-2006 at 20:37

Quote:

Originally posted by rogue chemist

NaCN air sensitive? What hydrolysis with the water in the air to HCN? Always though it stable, but I do not have any.

CO2 will displace HCN from soluble cyanides.

woelen - 20-8-2006 at 22:42

Yes, NaCN is very air-sensitive. I have my stock amount in a double boxed container, and that still is OK. The 20 grams or so, which I store in an ordinary plastic bottle already has decayed quite a lot. It slowly is converted to Na2CO3. I noticed this, because, when I add pure NaCN to cold dilute HCl, then no bubbles are formed (all HCN remains dissolved in the liquid). When I add the decayed NaCN to dilute HCl, it starts bubbling quite vigorously. I did not smell this gas

, but I'm quite sure that must be CO2 (of course, contaminated with HCN).

NaCN is hygroscopic and the humid solid in turn absorbs CO2, forming H2CO3, which in turn expells HCN from NaCN, itself being converted to NaHCO3 and/or Na2CO3.

[Edited on 21-8-06 by woelen]

not_important - 18-9-2006 at 22:58

There are several threads where posts related to sealing containers and/or chemical resistance show up. I hink that there is some important information being omitted.

Teflon products such as tape come in a range of densities, with the lower densities being more porous. A porous tape may not be harmed by a reagent, but still allow the reagent to diffuse through it. Densities run from 0.35 - 0.4 (the white tape) on up to 1.6 for some gas line tapes, and 2.1 to 2.2 for solid Teflon.

There are several common types of teflon tape for plumbing use. Common colour coding for these is

White - single density. Small pipes and temporary installations
Yellow - double density. Often used on gas fittings
Red - triple density. For larger pipes and higher pressures (but still home/commercial type installations)
Green - oil free for oxygen plumbing.

The light weight white tape really works best covering the threads, not as an external seal. When used to cover joint/cap threading, stuff attemping to leak through must travel through the width of the wrapped section; when used as a wrap around the outside of a bottle cap stuff leaking through only has to go through the thinkness of the tape. Even several layers of tape is nothing compared to the tape's width. The white tape also is depending on the hydrophobic nature of Teflon to keep back water, even though it is fairly porous. The red tape works pretty well as the external seal.

Extra thick tape makes good cap liners, for both protecting the cap inself and forming a seal with the top of the container; when the teflon flows from the pressure of the cap on the container, the extra thickness still protects the cap at that point and allows the formation of a slight raised ring of teflon on either side of the container lip - sort of O-rings.

One, but not the only, tape that seems to work well as a cap liner is C.S. Hydes 'Fat' Teflon tape. The sample I saw used had silicone based adhesive, however it appears that currently they only offer an acrylic adhesive form of the 'Fat' tape. It comes in a range of thicknesses and widths up to 12 inches. The tape is uncoloured, just plain, pure Teflon. It is not cheap, unlike the white Teflon tape from hardware stores, but the 3 mm stuff seems to do a good job at holding corrosive reagents in place. A piece of metal tubing can be honed on one end to make a circular cutter for punching out disks of tape.

Perhaps interested people could pool funds and share rolls, as I doubt an individual would need all of even a 5 yard roll for lining bottle caps. They do sell foot square sheets, which might be a good fit for the home experimenter.

Ah, URL
http://cshyde.thomasnet.com/viewitems/tapes-with-psa/fat-ptf...

A side note. The more porous tapes have been used as catalyst delievery and recovery systems. A catalyst with a fluorocarbon 'tail' is applied to plain non-adhesive low density Teflon tape. When placed in a reaction mixture that heated, the catalyst diffuses out into the solvent or neat reactant; higher temperature increases the fluorocarbon solubility. After the reaction is done, cooling the mixture cause most of the catalyst to migrate back into the pores in the Teflon tape, which is easily recoverable.

[Edited on 19-9-2006 by not_important]

conc acid/solvent storage

itchyfruit - 22-7-2009 at 08:24

Hi i read somewhere (this site i think but i can't find it now) that it's best to store acids/solvents in a fridge. What i'd like to know is should it be separate fridges ?

ammonium isocyanate - 22-7-2009 at 08:40

I would always store acids seperate from solvents, just because it's good lab practice. I don't think it's really a big problem unless there is a speceific incompatibility, i.e. nitric or perchloric acid should not be stored with oxidizable/highly flammable solvents such as diethyl ether.

itchyfruit - 22-7-2009 at 08:55

Thanks, Looks like i'm in the market for another fridge

entropy51 - 22-7-2009 at 09:00

If you weren't too lazy to search you would find the many, many threads here on chemical storage and find a better answer to your question.

It's rude (and lazy) to continue your practice of starting new threads when an existing one would answer your question.

DJF90 - 22-7-2009 at 09:30

I probably wouldnt store flammables in a fridge; I seem to recall something about an explosion hazard due to un-isolated electricals.

itchyfruit - 22-7-2009 at 11:14

entropy51 As i said i couldn't find it.

DJF90, Interesting point, but would the temperature inside the fridge not stop the solvents from giving of vapour,and reduce the chance of ignition by a spark? also what do you mean by un-isolated ?

The_Davster - 22-7-2009 at 12:03

Explosion proof fridges have sealed electronics to prevent components that could spark from igniting vapour.

I would just use secondary containment to separate nitric from oxidizable materials. For the usual amount of chemicals home chemists have I would find 2 overkill. I would not even bother with sulfuric, perchloric or non-volatile acids in there. No vapour pressure worth worrying about.

But I woud also use an explosion-proof fridge if I was storing acids, acid vapour is hell on exposed electronics...

[Edited on 22-7-09 by The_Davster]

itchyfruit - 22-7-2009 at 12:39

Thanks this is the bit i was looking for.
That makes scene,but i don't think i've seen an explosion proof fridge for sale or are all lab fridges explosion proof?
So to summarise 1, insulate/isolate or remove potential spark hazards 2, keep both in the same fridge but separate the nitric acid.
I also have some 37% hcl to store could this go in the fridge or should i use Magpie's system?

Formatik - 23-8-2009 at 13:00

It's funny how I don't know some threads on this forum ever existed until someone brings it about my attention. Some of my own thoughts on chemical storage and what I do. I have seen some dissapointing mixing of chemicals when it comes to storage (having chemicals all together in one area undivided and uncategorized), but I think there is also people here who are so cautious and aware that chemical storage saftey far exceeds how the general public stores its materials.

I don't have a lab per se. I unpack and then repack every time I use something. Compatibles with compatibles (usually like with like, but it doesn't work with NH4 salts and oxidizers, or trichloroisocyanuric acid and hypochlorites). Ammonium salts with ammonium salts is generally not a problem and is what I do.

The bulk of my chems are just household stuff, so no major concerns on my part. Anything a bit more unusual, like the near conc. HNO3 is in a brown glass bottle. The acid is packaged in styrofoam in a cardboard box it came in. If it must be stored, store perchloric acid away from most things else. Wood cabinets, cardboard, etc. are a no no. PTFE container in a metal cabinet would be ideal.

Kilogram sacks of sodium bicarbonate in case of acid spills is good to have nearby (also maybe for small fires). NH3 can be used against a variety of vapors (SO2, NO2, HCl, HCOH, COCl2, etc. with caution (read up on hazards) also against Cl2 and dimethyl sulfate). For bases, vinegar bottles. At least one fire extinguisher present on the same level the chemicals are. I also have several gallons of water ready in case of a spill or emergency. You could opt for a washing station if you are a true labcoater.

I think if I want to be assured in storage I imagine if a light earthquake would happen, how chemicals could mix, what could happen and then take steps to store them separatley. Chemicals which cause me too much concern are disposed of. Chemical lockers or cabinets aren't a bad idea, especially with kids and if you have a lab.

When I lived in an apartment, the chemicals were in a remote storage facility, since experimentation was off limits in apartments. In the house, the basement is good. Nice and cool, not too much sunlight, etc. Good inert concrete environment.

Picric-A - 23-8-2009 at 13:06

How does TCCA react with hypochlorites? on the packet of TCCA there are many warnings never to mix it with 'unstabilised chlorine' a.k.a. calcium hypochlorite, but i have never worked out actually what they would do when mixed...
any one know?

woelen - 23-8-2009 at 13:17

I once tried that reaction and I can say to you, it is scary!

I treid mixing one gram of TCCA (crushed) with granulated calcium hypochlorite. The dry powder mix does not react. Then I added a drop of water. Soon after adding the water, a violent reaction occurs. First, the stuff becomes yellow and the very recognizable smell of NCl3 appears. After that, the material starts bubbling very vigorously and a lot of heat and choking gas is produced. Luckily the stuff did not explode.

I tried this reaction, because on a dutch chemistry forum, somwone posted a big warning. This man (who did not know anything of chemistry, but has an indoor home pool) mixed Na-DCCA (which is TCCA with one chlorine atome replaced by sodium) with calcium hypochlorite, kilo wise. He did not know of the dangers, he just replenished his container of pool chlorine with more pool chlorine. He intended to use this mix as a slurry and add this slurry to the water in the swimming pool. When he added some water to he mix, the mix started bubbling and the mix became dark (charring, due to the intense amount of heat produced in the reaction). A lot of toxic gas was released. This man managed to get outside, but he had problems with his lungs for many days. His dog did not survive, this animal was killed in the toxic gas inside the house.

I actually was quite shocked when I read this story and initially I hardly could believe it. But when I tried the reaction on a gram scale myself, I was convinced. In the Netherlands there is no warning at all on the label of the swimming pool chlorine bottles that it should not be mixed with swimming pool chlorine of another type. It was the same brand, and the bottles looked the same. The only difference was that the one bottle tells 68% active chlorine, calcium hypochlorite, and the other says 60% active chlorine, sodium dichloro isocyanurate. But these are the small letters, the main text on both bottles was "granulated chlorine shock treatment".

Picric-A - 23-8-2009 at 13:26

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

I actually was quite shocked when I read this story and initially I hardly could believe it. But when I tried the reaction on a gram scale myself, I was convinced. In the Netherlands there is no warning at all on the label of the swimming pool chlorine bottles that it should not be mixed with swimming pool chlorine of another type. It was the same brand, and the bottles looked the same. The only difference was that the one bottle tells 68% active chlorine, calcium hypochlorite, and the other says 60% active chlorine, sodium dichloro isocyanurate. But these are the small letters, the main text on both bottles was "granulated chlorine shock treatment".

No warnings? WOW, they are literally all over the bottles of pool chemicals you get here;

'Do not mix pool chemicals'

'Do not mix unstabilised chlorine with stabilised chlorine'

'Mixing pool chemicals generates toxic gasses (chlorine)'

... the list goes on and on...