Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Hydrogen peroxide penetrability

kin - 26-3-2005 at 06:54

I am looking for a way to make 3% H2O2 absorbable from skin in to blood steam for a skin treatment method.

Could it be possible to use it with some kind of zelatinous mass, to prevent hydrogen peroxide from vapourising and at the same time be friendly to the skin?

BromicAcid - 26-3-2005 at 08:57

I always figured H2O2 would be a bad thing to have go straight into the bloodstream. There is always DMSO, that seems to be one of the first things you try to accomplish putting something through the skin into the blood stream. However such solutions may have to be made up only minutes before usage elsewise there may be odd products between the reaction between the DMSO and the hydrogen peroxide, although not much considering the dillution of the peroxide.

Any kind of cream or 'gelatenous' mass that you incorporate H2O2 into is going to slow its rate of volitization. But peroxide is fairly reacitve so finding a suitable medium to incorporate it into may take some doing.

[Edited on 3/26/2005 by BromicAcid]

kin - 26-3-2005 at 09:41

Could 3% H2O2 penetrate skin in to blood by itself?

Saerynide - 26-3-2005 at 10:08

Just curious, why do you want H2O2 in your blood? :o Our bodies try to get rid of H2O2...

You're not trying to kill anyone/thing, by making oxygen bubbles form in their bloodstream, are you? :o

kin - 26-3-2005 at 10:32

You should know that smal concentrations H2O2 is administred intravenusly in patients and guess what! They don't die!
Our bodies (cells) MAKE H2O2 to fight infection. Ever heard of catalase enzyme?

Now can someone answer if 3% H2O2 can penetrate skin in blood steam?
I just need a way to add extra oxygen in blood without making a hole on skin or taking oraly.

[Edited on 26-3-2005 by kin]

[Edited on 26-3-2005 by kin]

neutrino - 26-3-2005 at 10:51

Why do you want to add oxygen to the blood? Whatever the reason, hydrogen peroxide is definitely not the best way to do it. H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> has the peroxide ion(?) in it, making it very dangerous to anything living. When applied to the skin, it kills bacteria but doesn’t penetrate the epidermis (which is comprised of dead cells, essentially plates of keratin). Drinking the stuff or, worse yet, taking it intravenously would be a very bad idea. The entire purpose of the enzyme catalase is to protect the body by destroying hydrogen peroxide. Furthermore, anything but very concentrated hydrogen peroxide could only release a tiny amount of oxygen. For example, a 3% solution can release 10 times its volume of oxygen. If you really want more oxygen in your blood, get an oxygen tank and add that to your air supply.

kin - 26-3-2005 at 11:02

When adding H2O2 on a open wound doesn't some gets in to blood?

You said that H2O2 does not penetrate the skin keratin but when decomposed the free O radicals should penetrate it, am i right?

[Edited on 26-3-2005 by kin]

BromicAcid - 26-3-2005 at 11:04

Some gets into the blood, not much. As for H2O2 going through the skin, our skin is somewhat hydrophobic. As such it won't let much H2O2 through at all.

kin - 26-3-2005 at 11:09

I need mostly to add oxygen vascularly under a specific area of the skin. But i am not sure if it will moving around the specific area or disolve on all cardiovascular system.

Saerynide - 26-3-2005 at 20:25

Yes, I have heard of catalase. It breaks down H2O2 into H2O and O2... that's where I got my idea from....

Because I got the impression that you didnt want it to break down until it got into the bloodstream, the first thing that came to mind was catalase in blood + H2O2 = O2 bubbles

[Edited on 28-3-2005 by Saerynide]

kin - 27-3-2005 at 01:21

I just need a minor increase in oxygen or H2O2 ijn blood not anything lethal.

vulture - 27-3-2005 at 01:51

Take a needle, sting yourself and add a drop of blood to your 3% H2O2 and observe. Now imagine that happening in a rather important artery.

Right, that's a full blown stroke you have there! :o

I am a fish - 27-3-2005 at 02:01

Quote:
Originally posted by kin
You should know that smal concentrations H2O2 is administred intravenusly in patients and guess what! They don't die!


Actually, they often do...

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/...
Quote:
Our bodies (cells) MAKE H2O2 to fight infection. Ever heard of catalase enzyme?


Wrong again. Cells make small quantities of hydrogen peroxide as an unwanted (and toxic) byproduct of metabolism. Catalase's role is to break it down, not to make it.
Quote:
When adding H2O2 on a open wound doesn't some gets in to blood?


When applied to an open wound, hydrogen peroxide will rapidly decompose into oxygen and water (hence the foaming). In this case, no harm is done, as the oxygen can easily escape. If hydrogen peroxide enters a closed blood vessel, there is no route of escape, and so dangerous oxygen bubbles will form.
Quote:
I need mostly to add oxygen vascularly under a specific area of the skin. But i am not sure if it will moving around the specific area or disolve on all cardiovascular system.


Oddly enough, it will move around. That is the basic idea of the cardiovascular system.


Oxygen therapy is dangerous quackery.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/oxy...

Given your manfest lack of scientific knowledge, I'd strongly advise you against attempting any medical procedure.

[Edited on 27-3-2005 by I am a fish]

kin - 27-3-2005 at 02:02

This is why i need epidermic use.

When aplying h2o2 on the skin the oxigen ingreases in outer cells, slowly the released oxygen absorbed from skin (not pure h2o2)

could this be possible?

neutrino - 27-3-2005 at 06:19

Please make your posts a little more clear. I don't quite understand the point of that last one.

I'd advise actually reading that last article, it thoroughly debunks the myths you are plagued with.

sparkgap - 27-3-2005 at 08:21

Apparently, I have been beaten to the explanation regarding the antimicrobial mechanism and toxicity of peroxide ion, so I'll just throw in my two dimes worth. :D

"Epidermic" use, you say? Maybe you meant "external" use. I have yet to hear of this adjective!!!! Yes, the byproduct of peroxide decomposition is oxygen. But not your garden-variety oxygen, but nascent oxygen!!! That's right, kiddies, not the kind of oxygen you'd want in your bloodstream!!!!! And since catalase occurs in skin tissue, the nascent oxygen thus produced kills the bacteria on the surface of your recent trauma, and the bubbling action helps loosen detritus besides.

BUT, the nascent oxygen thus produced IS NOT, I repeat, IS NOT ABSORBED by the skin, and if ever some do, catalase sics 'em. ;) Thus, using peroxide to deliver oxygen inside you is definitely something to cross out of your to do list. Why the interest anyway??

sparky (^_^)

P.S. If you don't know what nascent oxygen is, search for it. Google helps. :D

[Edited on 28-3-2005 by sparkgap]

mick - 27-3-2005 at 14:40

Add my bit.
If you can selectively target an area of the human body with an over dose of O2 then you have cracked it. How you get it through the blood to where you want is the problem.
mick

kin - 28-3-2005 at 04:15

Forgive me if my syntax is terrible but my english is not that good.

In simple words i want to use H2O2 for its oxygen and not actualy the material itself.

I know that skin uses the atmosperic oxygen, nascent as you say. In hyperbaric oxygenetion therapies the pressure helps oxigen get in to blood steem trough skin.
What i need is to use a method (safe) to do the same thing using oxigen from H2O2. Of course in a smal scale and at a specific area.

I am not trying to sound smart or try to do any harm i just try to find an experimental way to use hydrogen peroxide on internal injury treatments.

thanks for your inputs until now and for all those to come.

[Edited on 28-3-2005 by kin]

Oxygen

MadHatter - 28-3-2005 at 09:05

More oxygen in the blood ? Wouldn't it be easier to get an oxygen cylinder or generator ?
Before she passed away from emphysema and strokes my mother was using both.

kin - 28-3-2005 at 10:42

So this is the only safe way to put more oxygen in blood?

The oxygen released from H2O2 decomposition for example MnO2 + H2O2 could be breathable?

Dave Angel - 28-3-2005 at 11:02

I would have thought that by bubbling oxygen from the decomposition through some Drechsel bottles with water you could clean it up fairly well - theres only peroxide vapour to be worried about really.

Personally speaking I wouldn't really want to consume anything I make that could theoretically be consumed safely, just in case - but I suppose oxygen generated in the decomposition can't be all that more hazardous than the odd whiff of acetone or DCM one gets from time to time.

Can it?

Still, it's your call.

kin - 28-3-2005 at 11:30

How exactly the decomposition could increase the oxygen in blood? Just use Mno2 + H2O2 filtered through water and take deep breaths?

Any simple aparatus needed?

[Edited on 28-3-2005 by kin]

mick - 28-3-2005 at 11:32

Kin
I am not sure what you are talking about.
To get more oxygen into the body use H2O2 to increase the percentage of O2 in air from 20% to 23-25% or some thing and make sure your O2 is not contaminated. If you are treating a local injury I do not think you should fill the whole body with O2.
mick

Above that things might start catching fire

[Edited on 28-3-2005 by mick]

kin - 28-3-2005 at 11:36

I can't find any other way to increase "topical" the oxygen than filing with a little extra oxygen the hole body.

With what could oxygen be contaminated when using the proccedure with the decomposition?

[Edited on 28-3-2005 by kin]

mick - 28-3-2005 at 11:55

Then do not do it
mick

Esplosivo - 28-3-2005 at 12:24

Quote:
Originally posted by I am a fish
Quote:
Our bodies (cells) MAKE H2O2 to fight infection. Ever heard of catalase enzyme?


Wrong again. Cells make small quantities of hydrogen peroxide as an unwanted (and toxic) byproduct of metabolism. Catalase's role is to break it down, not to make it.


Well not exactly, the superoxide radicle is produced by certain types of white blood cells to kill and destroy certain pathogens, be they organisms or particles. It is therefore not correct to state that hydrogen peroxide generated by the body is always a byproduct. Catalase has a high turn-over rate (one of the highest). This prevents H2O2 from being present in the blood stream and causing damage. IIRC the peroxide ion was shown not long ago to cause effects similar to ageing (wrinkles and all).

Also another disadvantage of your system is that one would require massive loads of this 'topical hydrogen peroxide' of yours. It only contains 3% by volume of oxygen, which is quickly used up, even by tissues with a low metabolic rate.

sparkgap - 29-3-2005 at 03:11

If you're hoping to oxygenate the body with dilute peroxide, this is too much trouble for a paltry oxygen supply. IMHO.

There is a world of difference between "nascent" and "atmospheric" oxygen. :D Essentially, they are allotropes, as well as ozone. Reactivity-wise, I can say with confidence that no one will want to have nascent oxygen inside their bodies!

Hyperbaric treatments involve exposing the body to high pressure oxygen; quite different from the protocol you are proposing.

Please desist on thinking about internal administration of peroxide.

Since we're on the subject of peroxide anyway, I was surprised to find out (through Google) that a website has been dedicated to it: http://www.h2o2.com/ . :D

sparky (^_^)

kin - 29-3-2005 at 04:05

Guess you are right. It may be more dangerous than i thought.

Are any other methods of "pushing" more oxygen in blood than h2o2 or botled o2?

I had a thought like that:

Decomposing H2O2 with Mno2 then filter trough distiled water the gass generated. Instead of breathing it it could be used topicaly with a large vessel that can adapt on skin with no gaps not alowing gas to escape.
Slowly the epidermis absorbes this extra oxygen in to the blood vessels promoting oxygenation to the (inner) ijured area.

It could be a miniature of HBO if enough pressure can be generated between the "skin adapted vessel" and epidermis.

sparkgap - 29-3-2005 at 04:12

By hyperbaric, we're talking about literally atmospheres of pressure here...

I'm still skeptical that the skin will absorb useful amounts of oxygen at easily attainable pressures.

sparky (^_^)

Esplosivo - 29-3-2005 at 05:06

Quote:
Originally posted by kin
Slowly the epidermis absorbes this extra oxygen in to the blood vessels promoting oxygenation to the (inner) ijured area.


The human body wall, the skin, is not a highly vascular organ (and neither is it humid enough to allow gases to dissolve and pass to the blood, not to mention the thickness; just keep Fick's law in min). It is, unlike other organisms like certain annelids and amphibians, not adapted for gaseous exchange. In 'forcing' in oxygen through the skin in reasonable amounts, enough to make an organ autonomous from the lungs and heart, would most probably require a large pressure, not mentioning the damage to the skin dermis and the capillaries.

If I'm understanding correctly you are aiming at supplying an organ/tissue which is injured (I presume it has lost blood supply) with oxygen. That would be quite interesting indeed.

kin - 29-3-2005 at 11:12

Quote:
Quote:
originaly posted by Esplosivo


If I'm understanding correctly you are aiming at supplying an organ/tissue which is injured (I presume it has lost blood supply) with oxygen. That would be quite interesting indeed.





Exactly!
Actualy many tissues in body have poor blood supply by the time of birth, so injuring such a delicate spot it is very time consuming and hard to "heal right".

But by promoting extra oxygen (doesn't have to be in tons just a little increase) at the injured area can help the neovascularization of tissue and the increase in metabolic rate of the cells meaning they can work faster.

The problem is always doing it safely.

I read in some site for a cream that claims to oxygenate from the skin the inner cartilages of joints. It contained H2O2.

But on the other hand it could be just someone trying to sell his product.
http://www.arthritisjointsolution.com/moxy_plus.htm

I can not imagine how can essential oils combine with hydrogen peroxide.
Can someone explain it to me?



[Edited on 29-3-2005 by kin]

neutrino - 29-3-2005 at 14:41

Another snake oil company…

I seriously doubt that a small increase in the amount of oxygen in a tissue would make any significant difference. Also, what is this obsession with hydrogen peroxide? The oxygen gas given off by this stuff is exactly the same as what comes out of bottles. Putting it into your skin is a very bad idea, as has already been discussed.

To explain/discredit this company, let’s apply some common sense, a little science, and most valuable of all, historical precedent. The DMSO is meant to take anything dissolved in it straight into the skin—fair enough. The peroxide is the snake oil here, Mr. fish’s article thoroughly debunked this. What do essential oils do, you ask? The answer: sell the product. Essential oils usually have no function in the plants they’re made in, neither are they likely to have much of an effect in animals. Most people, however, don’t know this and think they have some implicit theraputical value, being ‘essential’ and all.

Finally, the historical. People have been selling quack medicines for centuries. What makes you think the world today is any different. Just look at what people were buying in the early 20th century. They also thought that the stuff they were buying was good for them. Unfortunately, drinking radium and wearing it in jewelry turned out to be a very bad idea, so the quackers moved onto other junk.

kin - 30-3-2005 at 04:06

Quote:
Originally posted by neutrino
Another snake oil company…

I seriously doubt that a small increase in the amount of oxygen in a tissue would make any significant difference. Also, what is this obsession with hydrogen peroxide? The oxygen gas given off by this stuff is exactly the same as what comes out of bottles. Putting it into your skin is a very bad idea, as has already been discussed.

To explain/discredit this company, let’s apply some common sense, a little science, and most valuable of all, historical precedent. The DMSO is meant to take anything dissolved in it straight into the skin—fair enough. The peroxide is the snake oil here, Mr. fish’s article thoroughly debunked this. What do essential oils do, you ask? The answer: sell the product. Essential oils usually have no function in the plants they’re made in, neither are they likely to have much of an effect in animals. Most people, however, don’t know this and think they have some implicit theraputical value, being ‘essential’ and all.

Finally, the historical. People have been selling quack medicines for centuries. What makes you think the world today is any different. Just look at what people were buying in the early 20th century. They also thought that the stuff they were buying was good for them. Unfortunately, drinking radium and wearing it in jewelry turned out to be a very bad idea, so the quackers moved onto other junk.



Agree.

Can bottled O2 bought without medical subscription?

sparkgap - 30-3-2005 at 08:44

I don't quite know how to subscribe to bottled O<sub>2</sub>, but it should be easy to procure without needing permission from anyone, AFAIK. :D

DMSO and peroxide... they really are pulling pant legs...

neutrino, that was a very good example of quackery. :) Another example that comes to mind is the purported "universal antidote".

kin, you really should not be quoting whole posts.

sparky (^_^)

12AX7 - 30-3-2005 at 13:19

Quote:
Originally posted by kin
Can bottled O2 bought without medical subscription?


Welder's supply store.

Or heck, even Ace hardware, if you want a few ounces (for $8!).

Tim

kin - 31-3-2005 at 04:09

Is it clean O2?

sparkgap - 31-3-2005 at 04:11

Ought to be. It's not that inconvenient for them to separate oxygen from the rest of the air.

sparky (^_^)

kin - 31-3-2005 at 10:18

leaving 200 ml of 9% H2O2 in a room at night slowly decomposing with MnO2 it could add extra oxygen to the air.

Would the precentage be enough to ingrease oxygen in blood by breathing?

Sorry i mention again H2O2 but i got "tons" of it and it is useless.

neutrino - 31-3-2005 at 14:31

I doubt it would increase it by any significant amount. This amount would produce only ~6L of oxygen gas. If you like explosives, there is a list of things you could synthesize. It’s also used a good deal in standard chem. Search around, there’s bound to be something interesting you can do with it.

kin - 1-4-2005 at 03:58

If i am gona use it i will be for health purposes.

I made once dimeric (wet) acetone peroxide 300 grams and i regret it. My left ear is ringing 2 years now. I was 10 meters away.

how dangerous is this in your opinion?

http://www.altcancer.com/h2o2.htm

neutrino - 1-4-2005 at 14:12

It looks like more snake oil to me. As for safety, I doubt you’ll have too much of a problem, as you shouldn’t get too much peroxide in your blood. I’m not an expert on these things, though, so you may want a second opinion. As for the safety of working with the conc. peroxide, well, the pictures say it all.

kin - 3-4-2005 at 07:02

Is it possible for the oxygen to create any dizziness ?

When breathing fast and deep in purpose without any physical activity there is a dizziness present. Is this fealing caused from the extra oxygen in blood?

Esplosivo - 3-4-2005 at 07:51

That is known as hyperventilation, and it is due to 'excess' oxygen. It may lead to one fainting, etc....

12AX7 - 3-4-2005 at 12:14

I heard it was insufficient CO2 in the bloodstream (thus tilting pH).

Come to think of it, breathing pure oxygen would produce this effect, if extra O2 were the cause. As I recall, though it does give you a boost, it doesn't make you high.

Tim

kin - 4-4-2005 at 23:25

Quote:
Originally posted by 12AX7
I heard it was insufficient CO2 in the bloodstream (thus tilting pH).


Tim




So breathing fast "does" create extra oxygen in blood but this is not the reason for the dizy feeling. It is the low CO2 am i right?

pneumatician - 22-9-2020 at 07:54

superoxide dismutase?