Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Reclaiming precious metal confusion

Dr.Freemanstein - 25-7-2005 at 13:51

I have been trying to find info on how to reclaim p/metals from old pc parts.

Anyone know the processes to use to extract specific metals??

Twospoons - 25-7-2005 at 14:22

Gold - Don't expect much return, theres very little gold in old pc parts. That gold plating you see on the connectors is only 25um thick.

Silver - is so cheap its not worth the effort.

Palladium - a bare trace in a few parts.

Dr.Freemanstein - 25-7-2005 at 14:26

Thank-you...how do i liberate them tho....should i want to make the effort??

Lambda - 25-7-2005 at 15:42

About ten to fifteen years ago, a South African man became miljonair on an electrochemical process in depositing all these metals at once on one single electrode. Electronic appliances were disembled, separated, and crushed up to a powder like consistancy. This is all I can remember, for the information was limited in depth. He most probably had applied for a patent on this process.

Mr. Wizard - 25-7-2005 at 21:47

Silver is so cheap it's not worth the effort? At over $7 a Troy Oz you can almost get an ounce out of 2 or 3 heavy duty contactors. They are often found in the trash cans behind shops that do heavy electrical work. Almost every relay has a pair of silver buttons in it. The higher the current, the bigger the buttons. They get a blackish tinge when they are worn.

I had a mayonnaise jar full of contacts, and melted them down to a big silver slab.

Dig deep my friends, there be treasure in them chests;)

The_Davster - 25-7-2005 at 22:07

Do you have any pictures of these connectors? I am not sure I know what they look like, as well what are they used for electrically?

I usually buy a troy ounce (99.99%fine silver) when I need my Ag, when only dissolving a few grams from one of these bars the solution is colorless, however when the entire ounce is dissolved the solution is a bright blue as a result of copper impurities. Just a warning for all of you who make AgNO3 from silver bars, that copper is a major impurity.

Bright blue ?

Lambda - 26-7-2005 at 00:39

Rogue chemist, 1 troy ounce = 31.1034768 grams. So at an impurity of 0.01 %, assuming it is all Copper, you will get 31103.4768 milligrams / 100.00 % * .01 % = 3.11 milligrams of Copper. I am surprised that this small amount would color your solution bright blue, for it's only about 9 milligrams of Cu(NO3)2 anhydrouse. But maybe you are using as little as 100 ml concentrated Nitric acid to dissolve your Silver in. This would then have a Cu (NO3)2 concentration of more than 90 milligrams per Liter. This figure then starts to explaine your bright blue color.

Mr. Wizard - 26-7-2005 at 08:31

Quote:
Originally posted by rogue chemist
Do you have any pictures of these connectors? I am not sure I know what they look like, as well what are they used for electrically?

Here is an image of my junk pile. Any power relay (contactor) used to switch heavy current will usually have a Silver contact point, as they don't corrode or oxidize like other metals, forming a high resistance contact. Almost all switches have some silver in them, which is why the price is high. Often the metal under the silver button is brass or copper, but it is also silver plated to improve the connection. Purifying the metals is another subject, and obviously there will be lots of Copper, Zinc and others

SilverSource.jpg - 329kB

The_Davster - 26-7-2005 at 10:40

Thanks Mr.Wizard, exactly the pic I was hoping for.:)

Lambda: My bad, my silver is only 99.9% fine silver, not 99.99%, oops. I dissolved a bit under a troy ounce in only 25-30mL of 70% nitric acid, I do not remember the exact numbers but it was stoichiometric with 1mL excess nitric and to prevent loss of of nitric during dissolving it was done under reflux.

After dissolving the silver in 70%, there was a distinct blue color to the solid in the bottom of the RBF. There was not nearly enough water in the RBF to dissolve all the AgNO3 formed, so the mimimal ammount of water to dissolve all the salts was added and then filtered to remove the indissolved Ag2S that had coated the bar. This solution was then evaporated and I was left with way-to-blue-to-be-pure crystalls in the bottom of the evaporating dish. On closer examination of the contents of the dish, it appeared that a 'skin' of impure blue silver nitrate had formed a layer over some nearly pure silver nitrate crysals with 5mm distance between the impure and the pure. These were separated by hand and the impure was dissolved and allowed to evaporate again. The same layers formed and I was again able to separate the pure from impure by hand. I ended up with 20g of nearly transparent silver nitrate crystals with only the slightest hint of blue and 20g of the bright blue copper contaminated silver nitrate crystals. The silver was reclaimed from the bright blue ones by reducing with copper wire yielding the finest of silver crystals, which surprisingly were able to react with 70% nitric at room temperature.

Twospoons - 26-7-2005 at 14:10

Silver at $7 an oz is too cheap for extraction from circuit boards, where its mixed with a lot of other stuff, making extraction difficult.
Even the photoprocessors find it barely worth extracting the silver from the spent photochemistry, and they already have the stuff in solution!

I like the idea of melting big contactors though! I believe some of the big (like 200 amp or more) HRC fuses also use silver as the fuse element.

hinz - 26-7-2005 at 16:00

Another good silver source is silver cutlery.
It's mostly an alloy of aprox. 8 parts silver and 2 parts copper. (common silver alloys are 800/000, 835/000 and 925/000) Silver knives mostly have a steel blade and a silver handle, silver is simply too soft.
Contacts are very pure silver because any inpurities decrease the conductivity ==> worser contact = more heat ==> melting contact.

jimwig - 27-7-2005 at 14:01

Dear DrF.

This man knows about precious metals recovery.

http://webpages.charter.net/kwilliams00/bcftp/front.htm

I have been into this theoretically for a while.

The best book I have found is

The Recovery and Refining of Precious Metals by C W Ammen.

I also have some ref material on refining, assaying, etc.

Fleaker - 28-7-2005 at 17:01

Good sources Jimwig. Ammen's book is very good, but also hard to find.

The website is great except for his production of the sodium/mercury amalgam. I can tell by just looking at it that it won't work.

I dabble in precious metals reclamation and refining via wet chem or electrolytic apps and I'd be glad to offer experiences/info/procedures.

Eclectic - 28-7-2005 at 17:13

Actually, the electolytic production of dilute sodium amalgam should work just fine. It was the basis of an industrial NaOH production process for more than 50 years, and when the EPA shut it down, resulted in a mercury glut and dumping on the world market.

Fleaker - 28-7-2005 at 17:24

So the sodium hydroxide solution containing the water isn't going to react with the sodium containing mercury amalgam?

You'd have to be putting a lot of amps into the system before you'd saturate the mercury (because you're losing sodium all the time-the saturated lye solutions gradually becomes less and less concentrated (more H20) which reacts with the sodium making more and more hydroxide) As I said, high amperage would overcome the problem.

Fleaker - 28-7-2005 at 17:49

So the sodium hydroxide solution containing the water isn't going to react with the sodium containing mercury amalgam?

You'd have to be putting a lot of amps into the system before you'd saturate the mercury (because you're losing sodium all the time-the saturated lye solutions gradually becomes less and less concentrated (more H20) which reacts with the sodium making more and more hydroxide) As I said, high amperage would overcome the problem.

Eclectic - 29-7-2005 at 06:49

Something to do with high hydrogen overvoltage on mercury surface. In the mercury cell chloralkali processes, voltage is run the other direction in the denuding cell to speed up the reaction of the amalgam with water to form NaOH solution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_amalgam

jimwig - 29-7-2005 at 08:12

guys - i have not tried the sodium process but this was in response to reclaiming precious metals.

someone take a look at the web site that I gave the link to.

Doc Williams is assayer and miner in Costa Rica and he knows what he is talking about.

And BTW you can Ammen's book via interlibrary loan all the place.

where are you at - the state as I will tell you closest library holding Ammen's book.

http://firstsearch.oclc.org/WebZ/FSFETCH?fetchtype=holdingsb...


paste this and see what happens.

this should bring up a list of libraries that own a copy.

there are over a hundred libraries that have Ammens' books. He wrote several.

JimWig

[Edited on 29-7-2005 by jimwig]

[Edited on 29-7-2005 by jimwig]

Fleaker - 29-7-2005 at 09:28

I already have his books on refining, sandcasting, and metalcasting in general and the refining one was the most useful for me. After trying to get it through the library system, I just asked a gold refiner for a copy of it.

tom haggen - 4-8-2005 at 18:00

some old welding rods fell into my lap today. They are only about 5% silver though. However, I have about 20 pounds of this alloy. If there was away to separate the silver easily from this compostion I would be sitting on about 16 ounces of silver.

[Edited on 5-8-2005 by tom haggen]

neutrino - 4-8-2005 at 18:29

What else is in them? You could always add a lot of HCl and hope for the best.

tom haggen - 4-8-2005 at 21:13

My bad. I forgot to mention that it is alloyed with copper, and possibly some palladium.

12AX7 - 5-8-2005 at 04:06

Couldn't ya electroplate out in HCl? Copper goes across the solution and plates out a sponge, metals above H+ stay in solution, Ag presumably falls to bottom as AgCl. Unless it polarizes the anode, in which case nevermind.

I'm guessing Pd would plate across, so if there is any, I guess you'll want to do the usual inquartation with HNO3...

Tim

Mr. Wizard - 5-8-2005 at 09:21

Quote:
Originally posted by tom haggen
some old welding rods fell into my lap today. They are only about 5% silver though. However, I have about 20 pounds of this alloy. If there was away to separate the silver easily from this compostion I would be sitting on about 16 ounces of silver.

[Edited on 5-8-2005 by tom haggen]

Are they a coppery flat stick about 3mm (1/8";) wide and about half as thick, 30-40 cm long? It could be what they called silver solder in the air conditioning and plumbing trade. They also might contain some Phosphorus, as their other name is Sil-Phos. I think it's added to reduce bubbling or something like that. Take it into consideration when you are dissolving it in acid.

Fleaker - 5-8-2005 at 12:58

Mr. Wizard is right. They do contain some phosphorus to prevent excessive oxidation (just like phoscopper used when casting copper). I've silver soldered a little, and it's nice to have for joining things; you might want to keep it in case you need it.

If you have a furnace and know how to use it, you could remove the phosphorus in an oxidizing atmosphere, then add another reducing agent (activated charcoal perhaps?). There's also the Parks process, something could be done there I suppose.

Remember to increase the amount of copper in it (if you plan on electrolytically separating it: 95% or better Cu). Alternatively, you could just digest in nitric and go from there.

tom haggen - 5-8-2005 at 16:20

I thought about it today at work, and I was thinking i liked the idea of just disolving the rods HCl. Since AgCl is insoluble and every thing else just stays in solution. The only thing is where to go once I have silver chloride? Is there an easy way to convert it into silver nitrate? I would much rather have silver nitrate than silver chloride.

neutrino - 5-8-2005 at 17:48

The silver shouldn't be attacked, providing you exclude oxygen from the acid.

tom haggen - 5-8-2005 at 18:24

What about using aqua regia?

Fleaker - 5-8-2005 at 21:12

Aqua regia will give you silver chloride, it impedes further chemical action. It's a common problem with high silver alloys and why gold refiners dilute the alloy with copper: makes it easier for the silver to go into soln.

tom haggen - 6-8-2005 at 17:33

so since the alloy I have is such a low percentage of silver, no silver chloride will precipitate?

Fleaker - 6-8-2005 at 20:01

At 5% silver, you might still have problems with silver chloride buildup on the outside of the metal that is being digested. I suggest melting it and shotting it (to get rid of phosphorus by melting in an oxidizing atmosphere). Then dissolvein nitric acid which will put everything into solution assuming it's just copper, silver, palladium, and less noble base fillers.

Do you know the exact composition of the alloy?

Mr. Wizard - 7-8-2005 at 15:49

I just checked ebay, and the sil-phos silver solder is going for &12.50 a pound plus $4 shipping. Why mess with purifying it? Sell it and save yourself the trouble. If you just want silver you can buy it with the profits. A happy solution ;-)

Fleaker - 7-8-2005 at 17:56

I agree, you can make a lot more money by selling it for what it is than by refining it.

yep

Ephoton - 9-8-2005 at 03:27

aqua disolve watch out for the no2 gas.
if you dont get any gas its not working.
make aqua from one part nitric acid to 3 parts hydrochloric.
once disolved distill multiple time but never to dryness by adding hydrochloric acid when nearly dry.
once all nitric is gone dilute with water
then percipitate with your choice of reducing agent (ferrous ion, oxalic or formic acid, sulfites and so2, metalic zinc
ect ect)

collect your gold and wish you lived in oz near a reef :)

now other metals

Ephoton - 9-8-2005 at 03:32

if you want the plat group out of a solution it gets harder.
you must be more selective of your reducing agents.
first a oxalic acid drop is my choice then
ammonium chloride to get the group.
fire up the group then redisolve in clean
aqua.
oxidize solution to put palladium in a different oxidation state than platinium.
drop Pt with ammonium chloride. then
make solution basic with ammonia to drop
Pd :)

if you want silver buy a braclet
Os and others are realy hard and require
molten alkali disolves (realy nasty)

silver

Ephoton - 9-8-2005 at 03:39

silver will not disolve in aqua but it will disolve in nitric acid.
if you do an aqua disolve and find white powder at the bottom of you flask you could possibly have silver.