Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Rador Labs Challenge 11-12/2014: High Stakes, High Mass

Hey, you've gotta start somewhere. And if you were already going to make the compound anyway, you may as well submit it.

blogfast25 - 15-11-2014 at 07:18

Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now

Hey, you've gotta start somewhere.

Perhaps not with something that is so obviously lighter than compounds that took about 3 minutes to spring to my feeble mind? Do you think the people that will take part in that composition were born yesterday?

Texium - 15-11-2014 at 07:55

Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now

Hey, you've gotta start somewhere.

Well, I guess my mind is far more feeble than yours then...
I was trying to think of some other simple things off the top of my head that would beat it and I wasn't able to find anything. Keep in mind I've been doing this for less than a year, so I don't have an entire chemical catalog in my head yet, and each time I thought that something seemed like it would be higher than 843, it wasn't. I just wanted to reserve a place, and now I'm going to continue looking for something heavier. I think I made that pretty clear in my post.

Edit: I have an entire week off of school for Thanksgiving, the week after next, and we'll see what I can do during that time.

[Edited on 11-15-2014 by zts16]

Amos - 15-11-2014 at 08:05

Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now

Hey, you've gotta start somewhere.

Hurry up and submit something then, so we can stop talking about zts16's clearly shameful attempts at home chemistry!

Praxichys - 15-11-2014 at 08:48

Compound Name: Silver (I) Tetraiodomercurate (II)
Molecular Mass: 923.94
Donated

1.43g Ag₂HgI₄ in a vial:

2AgNO₃ + Hg(NO₃)₂ + 4KI --> Ag₂HgI₄ + 4 KNO₃

First, 0.43g silver metal and 0.40g Hg was measured out. They were then combined. Mercury instantly wets silver and forms a nice amalgam.

An excess of 68% nitric acid was added to the silver/mercury to dissolve both, evolving nitrogen oxides and some heat. The amalgam is very reactive toward nitric acid. Separately, 1.4g KI was weighed out and dissolved in a minimum of water. Very little water is required as KI is very soluble.

The two solutions were rapidly combined, changing a multitude of colors as species of I₂, AgI and HgI₂ equilibrated. The end result was a heavy, flocculant yellow powder. This was vacuum filtered on two coffee filters sitting on a medium frit in a 60ml Büchner funnel.

After drying, a fine, heavy yellow powder is obtained, as seen in the first photo. The powder is strikingly thermochromic at about 50°C. In the following images, the room temperature filter paper is shown next to the same paper heated by a hot-air gun. The color change is completely reversible, and the effect is especially gratifying on the filter paper since it changes temperature rapidly, as opposed to the bulk powder in the vial which takes a few minutes to cool down.

Some experimental notes:

Drying with acetone does not work. I believe the compound reacts to form iodoacetone. No further investigation was made.

The copper version of this compound is used to test for mercury. CuI on paper is swabbed on surfaces, forming the corresponding copper tetraiodomercurate, which is a different color than the iodide. Copper and silver react similarly, so silver iodide could also be used in this manner. However, silver iodide is photosensitive and prone to decomposition in storage, not to mention expensive.

[Edited on 15-11-2014 by Praxichys]

blogfast25 - 15-11-2014 at 10:35

Nice work. The thermochromism points to an endothermic and reversible (equilibrium) transition, but which one?

aga - 15-11-2014 at 10:38

Superb work Praxichys.

Rule test: if i come and steal your sample, then make sure you can't get it back, does that count as Isolating the Compound (from you in this case) ?

Amos - 15-11-2014 at 11:09

Superb work Praxichys.

Rule test: if i come and steal your sample, then make sure you can't get it back, does that count as Isolating the Compound (from you in this case) ?

Even if you did, you'd be tied with him. And since he's chronologically first...

Tsjerk - 15-11-2014 at 12:41

What is the definition of a polymer (as in the rules)?

The Volatile Chemist - 15-11-2014 at 12:45

Darn.... I spent a lot of my day making something for the competition, Barium bistartratocuprate(II), and the final product would have only been 632.27 g/mol :/ Hard to beat that most recent one. Do we even consider mercury, iodine, and silver OTC? They hardly are.
Regarding my experimentation today, I at least got some Fehling's solution and calcium bistartratocuprate(II) out of it. Turns out the latter still is an ok indicator for sugar type (Like Fehling's solution, a potassium/sodium double salt). Although it's not exactly for the competition; as it can't beat the two posted above, and I can't donate anyways (Like what are you even using donations for?); I still am posting pictures of the procedure, kind of pretty. I proved the bistartratocuprate(II) complex formed, with glycerin. The below link proves glycerin gives a positive Fehling test:

http://books.google.com/books?id=f5EtAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA302&a...

Sorry about image size.

The first one is the test run precipitate, the second is the cuprous oxide precipitate, the third is the real run, and the fourth is the filtered off calcium bistartratocuprate(II).

[Edited on 11-15-2014 by The Volatile Chemist]

Texium - 15-11-2014 at 13:08

The donations go to the winner (if they donated). It's the prize money essentially.
Also, it looks looks like an interesting compound that you made. I'll have to check it out.

And in the Skype group, Praxichys explained in detail how each of the reagents he used can be OTC, so his submission does count.

[Edited on 11-15-2014 by zts16]

Brain&Force - 15-11-2014 at 13:30

A polymer is anything that's a long, indefinitely repeating unit. You must be able to give a structure and formula. Proteins and DNA are not allowed unless they are synthesized, not extracted.

NexusDNA asked if disaccharides are OK. They are.

blogfast25 - 15-11-2014 at 13:43

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

Darn.... I spent a lot of my day making something for the competition, Barium bistartratocuprate(II), and the final product would have only been 632.27 g/mol :/ Hard to beat that most recent one.

No, no: easy peasy, actually!

Still, very nice compound indeed.

Tsjerk - 15-11-2014 at 13:59

What is the definition of a polymer (as in the rules)?

Amos - 15-11-2014 at 14:01

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

What is the definition of a polymer (as in the rules)?

Read about 3 posts up...

HeYBrO - 15-11-2014 at 14:50

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

Alright, here's a little something to get this started...
Copper(II) acetylsalicylate (or copper aspirinate) weighing in at 843.69 g/mol.

Damn it! that was the first thing that came to mind! and i have all the photos of the synth too!

Good job everyone who entered so far!

Tsjerk - 15-11-2014 at 14:52

What is the definition of a polymer (as in the rules)?

aga - 15-11-2014 at 14:56

more than one monomer conjoined ?

Praxichys - 15-11-2014 at 15:00

Quote: Originally posted by HeYBrO

Damn it! that was the first thing that came to mind! and i have all the photos of the synth too!

Post them anyway! I am interested to see how you did it.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 15-11-2014 at 15:02

A polymer is anything that's a long, indefinitely repeating unit. You must be able to give a structure and formula.

So a long chain of definitely repeating units is okay?

aga - 15-11-2014 at 15:08

No.

A polymer violates the Spirit of the Competition.

The idea is to make a single, non-polymeric compound, complex (and/or hydrate) with lots of mass.

Making polymers would be tantamount to cheating.

Edit :
It was me that missed the joke this time ES. DOH !

[Edited on 15-11-2014 by aga]

[Edited on 15-11-2014 by aga]

Brain&Force - 15-11-2014 at 15:32

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu

A polymer is anything that's a long, indefinitely repeating unit. You must be able to give a structure and formula.

So a long chain of definitely repeating units is okay?

You people know what I mean! :mad:

Amos - 15-11-2014 at 16:34

Tsjerk has asked what the definition of a polymer is three different times in this thread. No wonder I have déjà vu...

blogfast25 - 16-11-2014 at 04:43

You people know what I mean! :mad:

Unfortunately we don't, Sir. For instance if someone managed to synth a low MW polymer (say MW = 5000), wouldn't that be allowed? I mean, how cool would it be if a backyard chemist prepared a low MW polyethylene (e.g.) with OTC materials!

Question: will the amount of prize money be published as more participants donate? That could make it very attractive to other possible participants, thereby increasing the money pool even more!

And then there's this that worries me (from the OP):

Updates will be posted biweekly regarding any extensions or reductions of the challenge time.

Extensions I can see the point of but reductions? That could cut someone's considerable effort completely off, on the basis of some whim!

I will publish the competition on my blog, with invites to join.

[Edited on 16-11-2014 by blogfast25]

bismuthate - 16-11-2014 at 05:15

Reductions will only be used if nobody has interest in or is working on a project for this competition. We'll ask in this thread if anybody wants it too remain open multiple times.

Thanks for the support!

[Edited on 16-11-2014 by bismuthate]

[Edited on 16-11-2014 by bismuthate]

blogfast25 - 16-11-2014 at 05:35

Reductions will only be used if nobody has interest in or is working on a project for this competition. We'll ask in this thread if anybody wants it too remain open multiple times.

Thank's for the support!

Great, ta. I've now linked to the challenge, may it bring in a few more takers.

Mesa - 16-11-2014 at 10:36

Without meaning to beat a dead horse, can you give a bit more info on the definition of a polymer within the scope of the competition?

I've got all the required reagents to produce a few different heteropolyacids with molecular weights of about 3,000g/mol. They also form complex's with certain organic/inorganic compounds(the heaviest I've found that provided a structure was about 50,000g/mol.)

The polyacids are all described as either monomers or dimers in lit. and my understanding is that polymers and complex's are mutually exclusive properties however It kinda feels like I'd be "violating the Spirit of the Competition." Or at the very least, interpretting the rules fairly subjectively

.

I'd prefer not to commit to wasting the H3PO3 I have left without reason as well.

Brain&Force - 16-11-2014 at 11:13

Thanks for featuring us!

The amount of prize money will be updated as well so people know what's at stake.

As for the definition of a polymer in this challenge...someone help me...

Tsjerk - 16-11-2014 at 11:15

Sorry for same post over and over, something must have gone wrong somewhere. At least I didn't do it on purpose.

I found the answer in the complete rules though, first I only read the rules in the first post.

Brain&Force - 16-11-2014 at 11:32

Basically, excluding proteins and DNA you must give a molecule with a definite formula. You can link things together as long as you can tell us just how many things were linked together.

The Volatile Chemist - 16-11-2014 at 11:35

Right. Mesa, be sure to read the rules in the Google docs document. I'm not so certain as to how OTC your procedure is. And the whole problem of polymers is simply that the competition is just NOT ABOUT them. It doesn't matter how cool it would be if it were OTC or if it were a short polymer or whatever.
Regardless, anyone else gonna post?

Etaoin Shrdlu - 16-11-2014 at 11:36

Thanks for featuring us!

The amount of prize money will be updated as well so people know what's at stake.

As for the definition of a polymer in this challenge...someone help me...

Limit the number of times the same organic molecule can be attached through covalent bonds? It's a tricky question.

Mesa - 16-11-2014 at 12:07

@The Volatile Chemist: My original post was made with those points in mind, It wasn't an attempt to "cheat" in order to win/kudo's.

The restrictions regarding molecular weights of starting materials and polymers as final products is to keep the competition fun/interesting, and not a "lazy free win" scenario.

Given that the highest mol weigh of the starting material I planned to use was a base element, I was in two minds as to which catagory(interesting or lazy) it fell into.

The target compound(s) I had in mind is phosphotungstic acid, using tungsten metal and phosphorus acid. I assume the "poly" in heteropolyacid is outdated nomenclature, given it is not a polymer.

[Edited on 16-11-2014 by Mesa]

blogfast25 - 16-11-2014 at 12:40

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

Right. Mesa, be sure to read the rules in the Google docs document. I'm not so certain as to how OTC your procedure is. And the whole problem of polymers is simply that the competition is just NOT ABOUT them.

Says who? You?

Polymers/oligomers are chemical compounds of high MW, so the competition may not be 'about them' but valid backyard polymer research within the rules should not be excluded just because you say so.

The more things one arbitrarily excludes the more it feels contrived. Let it be as free as possible, that's the scientific spirit!

[Edited on 16-11-2014 by blogfast25]

The Volatile Chemist - 16-11-2014 at 12:43

Quote:

an attempt to "cheat" in order to win/kudo's.

Of course not, I know.
Regardless, all of these sound interesting. Does making [Al₁₃(OH)₃₂]⁷⁺ count?

blogfast25 - 16-11-2014 at 12:44

Quote: Originally posted by Mesa

@
The target compound(s) I had in mind is phosphotungstic acid, using tungsten metal and phosphorus acid. I assume the "poly" in heteropolyacid is outdated nomenclature, given it is not a polymer.

I do wish contenders would keep their ideas to themselves until after the competition and discuss any doubts with the organisers in private.

Play your cards close to your chest!

bismuthate - 16-11-2014 at 12:47

I'd like to know is what has over 50,000g/mol. That's insane

Also TVC feel free to make that if you can isolate only that aluminate

[Edited on 16-11-2014 by bismuthate]

blogfast25 - 16-11-2014 at 12:52

I'd like to know is what has over 50,000g/mol. That's insane

Most high viscosity elastomers have MWs of over 200,000 g/mol,

Albumin is over 50 k, easy.

bismuthate - 16-11-2014 at 12:56

Albumin is a protein and an elastomer is a polymer so they don't count.

aga - 16-11-2014 at 13:28

The current Prize Pot should be disclosed at this point, or at least Soon.
Donators would know more if they disclosed their 'donations' along with their submissions.

blogfast25 - 16-11-2014 at 13:37

Donators would know more if they disclosed their 'donations' along with their submissions.

In what way would they 'know more'?

IMHO submissions should be kept between the participant-donor and Rador. It would prevent people from submitting because someone else has already submitted something that beats theirs. It would increase prize money and keep the suspense going. Later ALL submissions could be revealed and the respective submitters post their write ups in SM.

[Edited on 16-11-2014 by blogfast25]

Etaoin Shrdlu - 16-11-2014 at 13:43

I agree with blogfast. Right now this competition is just going to trend upwards until it hits the top of a curve where everyone gets discouraged and concedes.

I would like to see a running total of donations, though. That would probably help maintain interest. I donated and I doubt I'll even submit anything.

aga - 16-11-2014 at 13:46

An increasing Prize Pot would encourage Interest.

I meant that Donors should disclose their donations, so that those who can add up would have a clue as to the Pot size, rather than waiting for an unverifiable disclosure by the organisers.

Edit:

I agree with bloggers.

All submissions should be secret until Disclosure Day, otherwise people might get disheartened with their sub-Mega gramme/mol submissions, and some interesting chemistry be explored, yet not posted.

[Edited on 16-11-2014 by aga]

blogfast25 - 16-11-2014 at 13:54

Yes, agreed with ES and aga. Disclose if you donate, but keep the actual submission to yourself. Questions about allowability: ask Rador in private.

[Edited on 16-11-2014 by blogfast25]

Texium - 16-11-2014 at 14:02

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think that if someone sees that someone else made a heavier compound than the one that they submitted, then they'll try to make something heavier. (like I'm trying to do now...) If anything, seeing the submissions actually helps fuel the competition. Also it prevents the inevitable event of two people making the same compound without knowing. If they're submitted as they're finished, the first person to submit would earn the leading spot. If they waited until the end, there would be no way to know for sure who made it first, and they'd have to split the money or something (which I doubt will be that much anyway, at least for this first competition).

I propose that the choice to post the compound before the deadline or not should be up to the person posting it.

aga - 16-11-2014 at 14:09

that's a good idea.

bismuthate - 16-11-2014 at 14:25

Antimony Ferrocyanide
Sb4(Fe(CN)6)3*(H2O)25
1573.2702 g/mol
5g of antimony from a nearby welding supply was added to 40mL of 39% muriatic pool acid.
It is left to react for 2 days.
Decant the solution.
Mix this solution with 6g of potassium ferricyanide obtained from impure blue toner and 6g of sodium metabisulfite in 40mL of water.
3K4[Fe(CN)6]+4SbCl3=Sb4[Fe(CN)6]3+12KCl
Filter and dry the precipitate.
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/87jprnifb6tdpud/AACuptOR9fzKQCR7k...

[Edited on 16-11-2014 by bismuthate]

cpman - 16-11-2014 at 14:54

I've got an idea for a compound with over 5500g/mol with OTC reagents. Unfortunately, I don't know if I'll be able to do the entire synthesis to completion... I guess I'll try in about a week. (I've got a break from school then...) Also, seperating it in the final step may be hard...

[Edited on 11-16-2014 by cpman]

Metacelsus - 16-11-2014 at 17:35

Would it be allowed to isolate the protein ovalbumin (45 kDa) from egg white? I think I can pull it off.

It has a definite structure, with a well-defined molecular weight.

j_sum1 - 16-11-2014 at 17:46

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese

Would it be allowed to isolate the protein ovalbumin (45 kDa) from egg white? I think I can pull it off.

It has a definite structure, with a well-defined molecular weight.

Isn't there a limit on the molecular weight of reagents used?

Brain&Force - 16-11-2014 at 17:50

Falls under protein classification.

So nope.

Metacelsus - 16-11-2014 at 19:10

I'm thinking about making certain stearic acid esters. I can probably get over 1700 g/mol.

Mesa - 16-11-2014 at 20:13

Quote: Originally posted by Mesa

@
The target compound(s) I had in mind is phosphotungstic acid, using tungsten metal and phosphorus acid. I assume the "poly" in heteropolyacid is outdated nomenclature, given it is not a polymer.

I do wish contenders would keep their ideas to themselves until after the competition and discuss any doubts with the organisers in private.

Play your cards close to your chest!

I apologize, I kinda figured the first post I made had pretty much given the game away already. My bad

Praxichys - 17-11-2014 at 07:09

The current prize is $19 USD

Many of you have donated without submitting an entry. Thank you for your contributions!

Keep the compounds coming! If I end up winning, I will set up another challenge personally so that I might donate the funds to someone in need of laboratory supplies.

Amos - 17-11-2014 at 07:51

Though it isn't set in stone or anything, the competition organizers and I have been toying with the idea of giving part of the award to whoever has controlled first place for the longest time stretch, which is not mutually exclusive with the winner for heaviest compound. It may not be in your best interest to wait until the end to submit your compounds!

Determining Molecular Mass

WGTR - 17-11-2014 at 08:32

From:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Mtth5g59dEIC&pg=PA38&am...

[Edited on 11-17-2014 by WGTR]

blogfast25 - 17-11-2014 at 09:48

Freezing point depression is really not easy to put into practice.

blogfast25 - 17-11-2014 at 09:52

Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now

Though it isn't set in stone or anything, the competition organizers and I have been toying with the idea of giving part of the award to whoever has controlled first place for the longest time stretch, which is not mutually exclusive with the winner for heaviest compound. It may not be in your best interest to wait until the end to submit your compounds!

Well, I'm sorry but personally I'm opposed to that too. What if a submitter submits late into the completion because his synthesis is simply more complicated than most? Why should he be 'punished' for that?

This thing is being over-engineered. The rules should have been clear BEFORE the start of the competition, not changed DURING it.

[Edited on 17-11-2014 by blogfast25]

Etaoin Shrdlu - 17-11-2014 at 10:42

I'm opposed to it as well. Come on, I donated under the assumption whoever synthesized or extracted the heaviest compound would win. So did many other people. Could the rules not be changed while the competition is running?

If you want another prize for "longest king of the hill," set up a donation pool for that. I'll toss a few dollars in.

Brain&Force - 17-11-2014 at 11:45

You're right, we should have been more clear about the rules. The problem is that we didn't realize that people would wait until the last minute to submit, as we were hoping for a steady stream of submissions.

By the way, who is the current leader and what is the highest mass?

[Edited on 17.11.2014 by Brain&Force]

Amos - 17-11-2014 at 11:55

I believe it is still Praxichys's silver(I) tetraiodomercurate(II), with 923.94 g/mol.

And yes, I like the idea of having a separate pool better too.

[Edited on 11-17-2014 by No Tears Only Dreams Now]

gdflp - 17-11-2014 at 11:58

Can we submit a compound if it is currently in a desiccator, but hasn't dried to a powder yet? I've got a compound drying that will beat 1573.27 by a large factor. BTW I think that bismuthate's antimony ferrocyanide is currently the winning compound.
[EDIT] Fixed typo

[Edited on 11-17-2014 by gdflp]

Praxichys - 17-11-2014 at 12:08

Yeah. I too am surprised at the number of revisions the rules have had since this thing began. Any revisions were supposed to be minor, and only to reinforce the spirit of the competition by enabling us to close potential loopholes, not change the dynamics of the game itself. So far, this has been kind of a disaster.

I also have no idea why it was posted a day earlier than it should have been published, back when we were still working out the details.

Rador Labs needs to get more organized. We have people making executive decisions on a project that is supposed to be collaborative, and nobody knows what is going on anymore. Further, any discussion about potential changes to the competition should be internal to RL and definitely not discussed here in the submission thread.

[Edited on 17-11-2014 by Praxichys]

aga - 17-11-2014 at 12:16

A drunken challenge is so much easier to manage

blogfast25 - 17-11-2014 at 12:25

The problem is that we didn't realize that people would wait until the last minute to submit, as we were hoping for a steady stream of submissions.

Well, I for one am not waiting until the last minute, but I've yet to synthesize the damn thing! Surely it doesn't run for a month for no reason?

blogfast25 - 17-11-2014 at 12:29

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

Further, any discussion about potential changes to the competition should be internal to RL and definitely not discussed here in the submission thread.

True. RL will learn with the next challenge. It'll have to if it wants to be anything of a successful challenge organiser for the future.

BTW, has anybody bothered announcing the challenge at Versuchs Chemie? Large forum, many bright sparks! Could ask 'pok' to do it... You see, all these things should have been done WAY before the competition actually started...

[Edited on 17-11-2014 by blogfast25]

aga - 17-11-2014 at 12:51

Compound Name: α-(5,6-dimethylbenzimidazolyl)cobamidcyanide
Molecular Mass: 1355.37
Donated

Sample: 1.32g
C₆₃H₈₈CoN₁₄O₁₄P
(Vitamin B12)

The photos show the full extraction procedure, detailing the PPE required.

bismuthate - 17-11-2014 at 12:57

Great procedure you really explained it well

I should try this soon even though it looks hard.
Oh yeah I donated.

HgDinis25 - 17-11-2014 at 13:10

Actualy, the callenge requieres a final PURE product.
That vitamin B12 is in a pill form so it must have excipientes of some sort (to keep it together for instance

)
No luck aga

aga - 17-11-2014 at 13:19

Doh !

And i was so close to winning ...

I suppose the fact that they're paracetemol tablets may have been discovered sooner or later.

bismuthate - 17-11-2014 at 13:45

You should try that extraction. The extractions and synths will most likely come out separate

blogfast25 - 17-11-2014 at 14:04

The photos show the full extraction procedure, detailing the PPE required.

You didn't even get your hands dirty!

aga - 17-11-2014 at 14:19

Work Smarter not Harder.

That's my motto.

j_sum1 - 17-11-2014 at 15:14

Doh !

And i was so close to winning ...

I suppose the fact that they're paracetemol tablets may have been discovered sooner or later.

Made me laugh.

The Volatile Chemist - 17-11-2014 at 15:18

Nice synths. I wouldn't worry about dynamics changing too much, the basic idea (No pun intended) is pretty cool. Antimony hexacyanoferrate(II?) was pretty cool!

Oscilllator - 17-11-2014 at 15:47

I also don't agree with the possibility of having a "longest streak" prize. My personal entry, a compound with a MW of 23000+, takes several days to recrystallise, so of course I cannot submit it until then.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 17-11-2014 at 15:55

Quick, someone make this one.

Oscilllator - 17-11-2014 at 15:59

Afraid not. That's a polymer with n=10000. Mine is a discrete molecule, 10 points for guessing what it is!

Edit: at least one person has already

[Edited on 18-11-2014 by Oscilllator]

Etaoin Shrdlu - 17-11-2014 at 16:09

Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator

Afraid not. That's a polymer with n=10000.

Psht, no. It's a discrete molecule with exactly 10,600 units, didn't you read the diagram?

I confess I've no idea what compound you're getting at, though I'm looking forward to seeing the results. (Are you biosynthesizing enzymes?)

Oscilllator - 17-11-2014 at 16:10

Nono. Proteins don't count, remember? Big hint: This is an inorganic compound

Etaoin Shrdlu - 17-11-2014 at 16:32

You must be able to give a structure and formula. Proteins and DNA are not allowed unless they are synthesized [snip]

Didn't know whether you were going to argue deliberate biosynthesis was a qualifier.

Not a clue.

Metacelsus - 17-11-2014 at 17:33

Phosphotungstic acid has been mentioned, but that doesn't have a MW of 23000+.

bismuthate - 17-11-2014 at 18:07

I am going way to far to counter this.

blogfast25 - 18-11-2014 at 05:25

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu

Quick, someone make this one.

Yeah, in UNDER 24 h, so you can submit fast!

But what is it? It strikes me as neither a polymer (an oligomer maybe) nor a protein.

blogfast25 - 18-11-2014 at 05:43

Talking about this 'antimony ferrocyanide':

Antimony Ferrocyanide
Sb4(Fe(CN)6)3*(H2O)25
1573.2702 g/mol
5g of antimony from a nearby welding supply was added to 40mL of 39% muriatic pool acid.
It is left to react for 2 days.
Decant the solution.
Mix this solution with 6g of potassium ferricyanide obtained from impure blue toner and 6g of sodium metabisulfite in 40mL of water.
3K4[Fe(CN)6]+4SbCl3=Sb4[Fe(CN)6]3+12KCl
Filter and dry the precipitate.
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/87jprnifb6tdpud/AACuptOR9fzKQCR7k...

[Edited on 16-11-2014 by bismuthate]

I have serious doubts that that is what Bismuthate obtained.

Antimony is an acid former, not a base former. Sb(III) salts are almost unheard of: even SbF<sub>3</sub> in the molten state conducts electricity only poorly.

SbCl<sub>3</sub> is a prevalently covalent compound that hydrolyses very strongly in water.

Salts of antimony invariably contain the element as anions, like antimonites, antimonates or halo substituted forms of these. H2SbF7 is a 'superacid'.

Bismuthate should analyse his compound for antimony, before making these claims.

deltaH - 18-11-2014 at 07:54

If I may make a suggestion for future contests, perhaps make it a rule that contestants work from a referenced procedure that they report in the write-up and that the compound is characterised in that or another reported reference and that there is at least some cursory attempt to correlate the synthesised product to what it should be (be it m.p or appearance of crystals).

Simply growing decent crystals of the compound you made can go a long way to convincing sceptics that what you have is (a)reasonably pure and (b)what you claim... but only if compared (at the very least) to what the paper describes the crystals should look like.

Otherwise, I fear that this contest will be riddled with, "I don't believe you"'s.

Brain&Force - 18-11-2014 at 09:30

Part of the rules state that the procedure must be described. I see no reason to limit the allowed procedures to those already referenced.

I would like to see more proof that antimony ferricyanide was formed though, for the reasons blogfast25 mentioned.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 18-11-2014 at 11:08

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu

Quick, someone make this one.

Yeah, in UNDER 24 h, so you can submit fast!

But what is it? It strikes me as neither a polymer (an oligomer maybe) nor a protein.

It was from an attempt to build 3-dimensional, structured polymers similar in complexity to biomolecules. http://phys.org/news/2011-01-giant-molecule.html

The original paper is in German, I think. I do not have access. doi:10.1002/ange.201005164

unionised - 18-11-2014 at 11:27

It's one of these I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrimer

bismuthate - 18-11-2014 at 12:46

blogfast25, Sb3+ salts are actually quite common, but I'll analyze it.
I can analyze it for ferrocyanide, but how would I do so for Sb is a challenge.

The Volatile Chemist - 18-11-2014 at 12:53

blogfast25, Sb3+ salts are actually quite common, but I'll analyze it.
I can analyze it for ferrocyanide, but how would I do so for Sb is a challenge.

Are you sure the antimony was pure? Look for zinc impurities, maybe? Just a guess.
If it is pure, it's containing of Ferrocyanide should be enough.

blogfast25 - 18-11-2014 at 13:10