Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Why DMF is controlled?

chromium - 6-10-2005 at 12:25

I plan to purchase some dimethyl formamide for experiments in home lab. I have friendly supplyer who has it in catalogue and probably will sell it to me.

I know that DMF is in lists of controlled substances but are there some particular reasons for this? Will it seem especially suspicious if one wants to have it?

I know it can be used ( as many other organic solvents ) for illegal extractions and as reaction environment for various legal and illegal syntheses. Is this all bad it has or are there more straight connections with drug making or other illegal activities? (If so then i will better give up)

Sandmeyer - 6-10-2005 at 13:13

At least in EU the reason is since it is classified as a poison.

bio2 - 6-10-2005 at 13:24

.........I know that DMF is in lists of controlled substances...............

Don't know your country but this is not correct. Don't believe everything you hear and then take as fact go to the source which is easy with the internet.

Controlled Substances are prescription drugs with very few exceptions.

Listed Essential Chemicals do not include DMF which is a common lab solvent. and are not illegal to own or purchase. Selling requires 2 years record keeping and each has a thresh-hold amount.

The UN countries are party to this list thru treaty. They are listed here to try and clear the confusion and endless nonsense which is posted on this topic.


List I
1. N-Acetylanthranilic acid
2. Anthranilic acid
3. Benzaldehyde
4. Benzyl cyanide
5. Ephedrine
6. Ergonovine
7. Ergotamine
8. Ethylamide
9. gamma-Butyrolactone (GBL)
10. Hydriodic acid
11. Hypophosphorous acid
12. Isosafrole
13. Methylamine
14. 3,4-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone
15. N-Methylephedrine
16. N-Methylpseudoephedrine
17. Nitroethane
18. Norpseudoephedrine
19. Phenylacetic acid
20. Phenylpropanolamine
21. Phosphorous (Red)
22. Phosphorous (white or yellow)
23. Piperidine
24. Piperonal
25. Propionic anhydride
26. Pseudoephedrine
27. Safrole
List II

28. Acetic anhydride
29. Acetone
30. Benzyl chloride
31. Ethyl ether
32. Hydrochloric acid
32a. Hydrogen chloride gas
33. Iodine
34. Methyl ethyl ketone (2-Butanone)
35. Methyl isobutyl ketone
36. Potassium permanganate
37. Sulfuric acid
38. Toluene

Sandmeyer - 6-10-2005 at 13:37

Quote:
Originally posted by bio2
Listed Essential Chemicals do not include DMF which is a common lab solvent. and are not illegal to own or purchase.


Chloroform and benzene are also common lab-solvents, but as an individual you can't buy them -- at least not in EU. I have heard that certain american meth "chemists" use "freon" as a extraction solvent in their shitty ephedrine reductions (due to attreactive B.P). Some people are really like made for DEA.

[Edited on 6-10-2005 by Sandmeyer]

vulture - 6-10-2005 at 14:58

Listed substances does not necessarily mean they are drug precursors.

Sodium cyanide isn't a drug precursor, yet buying it will raise suspicion, don't you think?

chromium - 6-10-2005 at 15:15

Quote:
Originally posted by vulture
Listed substances does not necessarily mean they are drug precursors.

Sodium cyanide isn't a drug precursor, yet buying it will raise suspicion, don't you think?


Yes, but to prove that i have no intention do poison anybody may be easyer than to prove that i have no intention to make drugs.

Thanks to everyone though.

bio2 - 6-10-2005 at 15:56

......Listed substances does not necessarily mean they are drug precursors. ..........

Thankyou for saying that.

EU laws I am not familiar with but what it boils down to is if you will buy chemicals then a relationship has to be built with preferably a local supplier.

In todays climate liability is a major concern to chemical dealers but I seriously doubt there is a LAW prohibiting the sale of benzene to individuals this is a policy of most companies.

If there are ridiculous laws like these then starting a company as a sole proprietor is very easy I have only once in 15years been asked "what do you want that for?" but then I am a legitimate small research company and don't walk in as some dumbass to order something I don't know how to use..

gorilla - 6-10-2005 at 16:03

"Chloroform and benzene are also common lab-solvents, but as an individual you can't buy them -- at least not in EU"

This is patently false: you can.

BromicAcid - 6-10-2005 at 18:20

A better question would be "Why is DMF so expensive?" The cheapest that I found it from my normal sources is $25 for 100 ml, pretty steep in my book, although a 55 gal drum was only $2300, a steal! :D

The_Davster - 6-10-2005 at 18:26

Wow Bromic, expensive from your source. If I were so inclined, and had a use for it, I could get it for 30something/L.

Sandmeyer - 7-10-2005 at 02:58

Quote:
Originally posted by gorilla
"Chloroform and benzene are also common lab-solvents, but as an individual you can't buy them -- at least not in EU"

This is patently false: you can.


In my country, as a non-corporation you can't, and I live in Eu. The practical enforcement of the market restrictions seem to varie between member-states, I'm sure there is a difference in situation between Poland and Norway. But according to: http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/chemicals/legislation/m...

Chloroform may not be used in concentrations equal to or greater than 0,1 % by weight in substances and preparations placed on the market for sale to the general public and/or in diffusive applications such as in surface cleaning and cleaning of [...]

It's in the same regulation place as tetrachloromethane.

Benzene:

May not be used in concentrations equal to, or greater than, 0,1 % by mass in substances or preparations placed on the market. However, this provision shall not apply to:

(a) motor fuels which are covered by Directive 85/210/EEC;

(b) substances and preparations for use in industrial processes not allowing for the emission of benzene in quantities in excess of those laid down in existing legislation;

(c) waste covered by Directives 75/442/EEC (4) and 78/319/EEC (5).

gorilla - 7-10-2005 at 05:14

I think that the EU regulations restrict the use of various compounds within products for general sale. It is not illegal to sell the compounds as is.

unionised - 7-10-2005 at 07:57

Did you read this
"Chloroform may not be used in concentrations equal to or greater than 0,1 % by weight in substances and preparations placed on the market for sale to the general public and/or in diffusive applications such as in surface cleaning and cleaning of [...] "?

I only ask because that is precisely the piece of legislation that does ban the sale of chloroform to members of the public.
Chloroform is greater than 0.1% chloroform.

BTW, I think DMF is frowned upon because it can be used (together with POCl3) to formylate activated benzene rings, and that is a stage in the synthesis of some drugs. I'm not certain of the details, but it gets a lot of mentions in Pihkal.

[Edited on 7-10-2005 by unionised]

gorilla - 7-10-2005 at 12:39

"Did you read this"Chloroform may not be used in concentrations equal to or greater than 0,1 % by weight in substances and preparations placed on the market for sale to the general public and/or in diffusive applications such as in surface cleaning and cleaning of [...] "?

I only ask because that is precisely the piece of legislation that does ban the sale of chloroform to members of the public.
Chloroform is greater than 0.1% chloroform.
"

Of course I read it. Did you not understand my point? Chloroform sales are not prohibited to private persons.

KidCurry - 8-10-2005 at 10:49

I live in the EU, if a company were to sell chloroform to an individual (unless he/she has a permit) they would loose their license pretty quickly. I.e, it is prohibited here.

[Edited on 8-10-2005 by KidCurry]

unionised - 8-10-2005 at 13:30

Gorrila, keep reading it until you understand it. (Or get someone to explain it to you.)
It is forbidden to sell chloroform to individuals in the EU and that's the bit of legislation that forbids it.

JustMe - 8-10-2005 at 16:56

Reaching way back here regarding the original question... correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but if memory serves, I believe that DMF is a solvent that (at one time) was one of the more desirable one's to use for synthesizing hallucinogens. But as I said, relying on memory from something I read in the 1970's.

So that is one reason it would be controlled.

Sandmeyer - 8-10-2005 at 18:29

Quote:
Originally posted by JustMe
Reaching way back here regarding the original question... correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but if memory serves, I believe that DMF is a solvent that (at one time) was one of the more desirable one's to use for synthesizing hallucinogens. But as I said, relying on memory from something I read in the 1970's.

So that is one reason it would be controlled.



Speculations, speculations, it has nothing to do with drug synthesis, DMF is under poison schedule: http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/DI/N,N-dimethylformamide.html hence a simple citizen can't purchase it.

It is more common to find a formylation procedure using N-methylformanilide associated with drug synthesis, than it is using DMF, yet capitalist lackeys have not put either on a precursor list, distinguish poison schedule from precursor 'schedule'.

https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/07860.htm

https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/44863

unionised - 9-10-2005 at 00:59

DMF isn't very toxic compared to plenty of other chemicals. (Oral LD 50 in rats 2800 mg /Kg, about twice as toxic as methanol or eth glycol, though LD50s don't tell the whole story).

I couldn't find it on the poisons list
(here's a copy http://www.tameside.gov.uk/licensing/poisons.htm)

Google found no pages with the phrase "poisons rules" and the word formamide.
On the other hand, it found plenty of references to formamide and "controlled substance", including some which point out that posesion of DMF and ergot is a felony in New York.

What did you mean by "speculations speculations"?

[Edited on 9-10-2005 by unionised]

gorilla - 9-10-2005 at 03:46

"Gorrila, keep reading it until you understand it. (Or get someone to explain it to you.)
It is forbidden to sell chloroform to individuals in the EU and that's the bit of legislation that forbids it."

Son, nowhere does it explicitly forbid the sale of chloroform to individuals. Besides if you actually read the document, particularly article 2, you will see that exceptions that allow listed substances to be marketd and sold. Do you have difficulty maintaining stable relationships? I just wondered.

unionised - 9-10-2005 at 04:37

Article 2 says
Member States shall take all neccessary (SIC!necessary)measures to
ensure that the dangerous substances and preparations listed in the
Annex may only be placed on the market or used subject to the
conditions specified therein.Such restrictions shall not apply to
marketing or use for Research and Development or analysis purposes.

In order to buy the stuff you would need to persuade the supplier that you are undertaking research and I think any individual would struggle with that- some small companies would too.

Chloroform
-
May not be used in concentrations equal to or greater than
0,1 %by weight in substances and preparations placed on
the market for sale to the general public and/or in diffusive
applications such as in surface cleaning and cleaning
fabrics.
Without prejudice to the application of other Community
provisions on the classification,packaging and labelling of
dangerous substances and preparations,the packaging of
such substances and preparations containing them in
concentrationsequal to or greater than 0,1 %shall be
legible and indelibly marked as follows:詮or use in
industrial installations only ・
By way of derogation this provision shall not apply to:
(a)medicinal or veterinary productsasdefined by Directive
65/65/EEC (13 ),aslast amended by Directive 93/39/
EEC (14 );
(b)cosmetic products as defined by Directive 76/768/
EEC (15 ),aslast amended by Directive 93/35/EEC (16 )."

OK, that's a bit long winded and has some bits that aren't important here. Cut those out and you are left with

"Chloroform
May not be used in concentrations equal to or greater than
0,1 %by weight in substances "..."on
the market for sale to the general public "

" substances and preparations containing" [chloroform and such] "in
concentrations equal to or greater than 0,1 %shall be
legible and indelibly marked as follows:'For use in
industrial installations only '
"

I really don't see that as leaving much scope for selling chloroform OTC. Possibly as a drug, but you would need a prescription at least.


The only people I really have a problem maintaining relationships with are those who call me "son" without being qualified.

Sandmeyer - 9-10-2005 at 04:56

Quote:
Originally posted by gorilla
"Gorrila, keep reading it until you understand it. (Or get someone to explain it to you.)
It is forbidden to sell chloroform to individuals in the EU and that's the bit of legislation that forbids it."

Son, nowhere does it explicitly forbid the sale of chloroform to individuals. Besides if you actually read the document, particularly article 2, you will see that exceptions that allow listed substances to be marketd and sold. Do you have difficulty maintaining stable relationships? I just wondered.


Benzene and chloroform are under market restrictions, a company can't legally sell it to an individual without a permit, how many times do you need to hear it?
Quote:
DMF isn't very toxic compared to plenty of other chemicals. (Oral LD 50 in rats 2800 mg /Kg, about twice as toxic as methanol or eth glycol, though LD50s don't tell the whole story).


It's a law, don't expect it to make any sence...
Quote:
What did you mean by "speculations speculations"?


I mean what I said - DMF regulation has nothing to do with "the synthesis of halluciongens". Have you seen the EU-list of drug-precursors? DMF is not even on the american list of watched substances nor drug precursors.
Quote:
Google found no pages with the phrase "poisons rules" and the word formamide.
On the other hand, it found plenty of references to formamide and "controlled substance", including some which point out that posesion of DMF and ergot is a felony in New York.


There are many formamides, like N-methyl formamide and it is used in the Leuckart process to make meth and MDMA, it is a watched chemical hence your google hits, DMF has nothing to do with it. It is possible that possesing ergot and DMF is a felony in USA, in some places there (and possibly in Saudia Arabia) it's a felony to posess a 3-necked flask.

[Edited on 9-10-2005 by Sandmeyer]

gorilla - 9-10-2005 at 05:45

As I suggested in the first place: some substances are restricted for marketing and sale in consumer products. A private individual can however buy these substances quite legally. This is why there are several suppliers who will sell chloroform for example to the private individual in the UK. I know of several in Germany too.

This seems to be what the law states and what experience shows. Good enough for me.

Sandmeyer - 9-10-2005 at 05:50

Quote:
Originally posted by gorilla
This seems to be what the law states and what experience shows. Good enough for me.


That's what I ment by saying that the situation in practice regarding the enforcement of the legislation is likely to vary between member states. It is possible that you could buy it. In my country I could never buy these compounds. Cocaine is also fully possible to buy, it does not mean it is legal to sell it.

Ramiel - 9-10-2005 at 06:13

Legislation is only ever a list of <html><i>prohibitions</i> and therefore, any activity not prohibited by legislation is legal. The sale of cocaine to anyone is illegal because there are specific laws in place prohibiting its sale and possession.

The phrase "placed on the market for sale to the general public" is probably the point of contention here, right? This is fairly definitely termed as a lawyer may say - it doesn't leave any wriggle-room. So if one was to say "this item is not 'marketed' to the 'general public'" then I would assume that it would be legal.

I believe there is an analogous problem with the law when people are giving away Marijuana... where the possession may not be criminal - and police can't enforce the criminal code pertaining to the sale of an 'illicit substance'. Rather clever really.

Sandmeyer - 9-10-2005 at 07:21

Yes, but as a company you could get punished for selling it - call it what you like. It is possible that his supplier was ignorant regarding the legislation and still sold it, or he knew but still wanted to make profit, or the authorities of the country in question don't care to enforce certain legislations, god knows.

Take Holland, it is party to the 1961 Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs. This convention prohibits cultivation and trade of naturally-occurring drugs, yet one still can have a coffeshop (company) and sell shrooms and pot in Holland, authorities don't enforce the law in practice, it only exist on paper to please the US war on "drugs". I would not be surprised if there are countries within EU who are in the simillar manner relaxed towards certain chemical restrictions, but the legislation still exists - even if only on a piece of paper.

[Edited on 9-10-2005 by Sandmeyer]

woelen - 9-10-2005 at 10:17

Well, I am Dutch and indeed, as long as drugs have a natural origin, the authorities are quite relaxed. Things, however, are changing slowly, because of troubles around these so-called coffeeshops. They attract a certain class of people, who are not welcomed by the people, living in the neighbourhood of these coffee-shops. So, quite some coffeeshops are closed again or banned to areas at the border of the cities.

If people have a few hennep-plants for personal 'joy', then nobody makes problems of that.

Chemical drugs is another matter. As soon as a meth-lab is discovered, it is dismantled and all stuff is taken away and the people involved get into deep trouble. On the other hand, the use of chemical drugs, strangely, is tolerated to a certain extent. So, making them is strongly prohibited, but if you can get your hands on some pills, then the use of these pills is not punished.

unionised - 9-10-2005 at 13:26

The fact that I could buy CHCl3 from some dodgy supplier as an individual isn't important. The point is its illegal.


There are many formamides and none of them is on the UK poisons list (which is probably required to mimic the EU one very closely) otherwise Google would find them.
There's probably a reason for it. While many laws are totally arbitrary, the UK list of poisons rather dully only lists the nasty (and relatively common) ones so its no great suprise that DMF seems not to be on it. I haven't got the EU equivalent but if someone can provise a link I'm sure many of us would like a look.

chromium - 9-10-2005 at 14:51

Chloroform and benzene can not be used in "substances and preparations placed on the market for sale to the general public"

This just seems to forbid selling to everyone. Selling only to some particular individuals who have certain properties ( like being chemistry teacher or keen hobbyst ) is not selling to general public. There may be other laws that forbid any selling to any individual but this probably is not one of them.

Laws in modern world are so complex and messed up that you will never know for sure what is legal and what not.

[Edited on 9-10-2005 by chromium]

Madandcrazy - 27-1-2006 at 08:39

Some suggestions to my last Topic which was closed by vulture. This thread was not found by me in the forum.

Is the formic acid usful for the suggestion, decompose it by continuing with
NaOH, the synthesis ends with the known reaction or is the synthesis possile with
n.n-dimethylchloromethane ?

O=COOH + ClCH2N(CH3)2 + NaOH(sat.)
-->
O=CHOCH2N(CH3)
O=CHCH2N(CH3)
or
O=CHN(CH3)2

A incursion is using chloroamin and formamide for a step of the synthesis subtitute
the NH2 group with the Hydrogen atom.
O=CH-NH2 + NH2Cl
-->
O=CH-NHNH2
-->
O=CH-N(NH2)2


[Edited on 27-1-2006 by Madandcrazy]

unionised - 29-1-2006 at 07:06

"O=COOH "
Pardon?

mick - 29-1-2006 at 16:00

DMF is a high boiling industrial solvent, 140oC. Handled with caution it should be OK. You should try not to inhale the vapours, I think is worse for a woman but it is bad for everyone.

mick

Madandcrazy - 1-2-2006 at 07:30

Excuse me unionised for the error in the formula, formic acid of course O=COH.

I mean the possibilty in the reaction or the decomposition of the formic acid.

O=HCOH + NaOH + ClHN(CH3)2
-->
O=HCOH + NaOH + ClCH2N(CH3)2
OH-CHOClCH2N(CH3)2

more is when for instance chloromethane is reakted with
the chloroamin or the formamide in a spezial ;) solvent to the

ClNHCH3 or O=CHNHCH3



[Edited on 2-2-2006 by Madandcrazy]

sparkgap - 1-2-2006 at 08:22

What the... ? Formic acid is H-(C=O)-OH ! :o

I forsee a neutralization, a loud *BANG*, and a cloud of (possibly) noxious gases in the route you propose.

Oh, and some of your valences are just plumb wrong.

sparky (~_~)

Madandcrazy - 2-2-2006 at 07:38

Yes you have absolute right for my errors posting about formlas H-(C=O)-OH sparky, you know something about cooling by careful neutralizating a chemical reaction with a acid.

I meant in this thread only some about DMF or any useful
chemicals for futher ;) syntheses like n,n-diaminoformamide.

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by Madandcrazy]