Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Vinegar to Glacial Acetic Acid Via Charcoal

Vinegar to Glacial Acetic Acid Via Charcoal

learner - 21-3-2006 at 05:48

Trying to Find Info On Johann Tobias Lowitz's 1789 method of concentrating Dilute acetic acid by repeatedly passing over charcoal. I can find very little info other than that he obtained GAA in this manner.

evil_lurker - 21-3-2006 at 18:12

Just buy the stuff... its not worth the hassle to make it.

Find the right photo chemistry store and have them order you a coupla gallons for around $35 or so each.

BromicAcid - 21-3-2006 at 18:48

Maybe it's not worth the hassel, but maybe it would be fun? Way to shoot someone down right off the bat. Personally I would be interested in this method. But I don't get how it would work. I really don't know that much about activated carbon, 'one of nature's mysteries' I would explain if pressed but my first impression is that it would work to remove the acetic acid from the water considering it sucks up all the other oganic stuff you usually use it to get rid of. So how would it concentrate it, does it absorb water appreciably, I never noticed.

lordmagnus - 21-3-2006 at 18:48

Couldn't you distill pickeling vinegar to an extremely high concentrations of acetic acid?

BromicAcid - 21-3-2006 at 18:53

Now there is a huge thread on that somewhere around here, I think at least three pages on if you can distill OTC vinegar to get concentrated acetic acid, we got hung up on if there was an azeotrope or not and I don't know if anyone came to a consensus on the issue.

leu - 21-3-2006 at 19:38

CRC's Handbook of Chemistry and Physics lists an azeotrope of acetic acid and water as boiling at 76.6 degrees Centrigrade and being composed of 97% water and 3% acetic acid. The industrial method for the preparation of glacial acetic acid is distillation using sulfuric acid as a drying agent. An old post, unfortunately currently unavailable:

lugh
(Moderator)
11-22-02 16:37
No 382358
References
(Rated as: excellent)

A calculated amount of potassium or sodium bisulfate may bee used instead of concentrated sulfuric acid, in producing the so called "soda acid" Prior to the introduction of synthetic acetic acid, this was the most anhydrous form of glacial acetic acid available. Some patented methods of distillation are DE220705, US1463209, FR612595, FR449035 and US1196329 Electrolytic purification methods can bee found in US1104978 and US1210792 Some methods of concentration by distillation of acetic acid are GB218271, GB218272, FR594925, GB204196, GB187603, US1477076, GB230447, GB296794, GB3000923, GB356741 and GB298137 Some non patent references are Chem Ztg 55 881 (1931), Chem and Met Eng 36 657 (1929), Ind Eng Chem 24 722 (1932) & 23 482 (1931) and Z Agnew Chem 20 148 (1916) Concentration of acetic acid by adsorption is disclosed in GB332983 and Z Physikal Chem 29 326 (1925) Removal of water by selective adsorption is patented in GB314913, US1492717, US1492718, US1817993, GB338187, DE230171, DE282263 and DE292959 Concentration of acetic acid by freezing is the subject of GB378463 and GB378463 Some more applicable references are US2275802, JACS 54 1429 (1932), 53 2881 (1931) & 58 2585 (1936), JCS 1751 (1910) and Ind Eng Chem 20 1379 (1928) Probably the most effective drying agent available to most bees would be anhydrous copper sulfate

[Edited on 22-3-2006 by leu]

Darkblade48 - 21-3-2006 at 22:47

Wow, azeotrope at 97% water and 3% acetic acid? That's surprising, considering that household vinegar is already 5% acetic acid

JohnWW - 22-3-2006 at 01:57

Is the real aim of the exercise then to produce acetic anhydride, for acetylation reactions on alcohols and phenols? That would involve a dehydration, probably either by reaction with acetyl choride in the presence of pyridine (which forms the hydrochloride), or by (on a solid substrate like AlPO4) dehydration at 700ºC to ketene which can then react with further acetic cid to form the anhydride.

BTW Perry's Chemical Engineers' Handbook, ch.13, does not seem to list a water-acetic acid azeotrope, although it lists a water-propionic acid one with 94.7% propionic acid.

Desiccants

MadHatter - 22-3-2006 at 02:17

What about other desiccants ? Aren't there other materials that would be suitable in extracting
the H2O out of the mix ? I found that dried out rock salt works well in dehydrating ethanol.
Just a few thoughts.

S.C. Wack - 22-3-2006 at 03:09

This azeotrope only seems to exist in certain CRC's and nowhere else. I don't think that there are any azeotrope tables in my (23rd, 1939) edition.

Simple distillation of acetic acid of any concentration gives a weaker distillate and a stronger residue, it's that simple.

Anyone with access to the RSC archive can take a look for themselves, this is the article that I referred to in the earlier thread: http://dx.doi.org/10.1039/JS8621500270

evil_lurker - 22-3-2006 at 03:20

I didn't mean to intentially shoot down learner this one, but I have BTDT. Sure it can be prepared in the lab, but it just so happens that acetic acid is one of many chemicals that for all intents and purposes is better left to large scale industrial production. The reason why is because acetic acid just totally violates the ideal gas law or whatever its called... it can be distilled feasibly, but only when there is a high enough concentration of acetic acid to begin with... all the water is azeotropically removed first leaving only pure acid remaining.

The only practical home method I used to know of for concentrating vinegar is to add in a alkaline metal carbonate, boil off the water, and then add that to concentrated sulfuric acid and distill. The catch to that is your basically exchanging one acid for another and it takes forever to boil off all the water and distill the final product.

However after looking at the US1492718 patent, I think that this might be a much more viable method. You start off with anhydrous sodium sulfate (which just happens to be cheaper than dog poop) and adding it to vinegar over 38C then cooling it to form Glauber's salt (sodium sulfate decahydrate) and filtering off the acid. That is good, because anhydrous sodium sulfate can absorb 1.2 times its own weight in water then crystalize out of solution. I also did not know this, but according to the patent, if Glauber's salt is heated above its crystalization point of 38 degrees, then supposedly near anhydrous sodium sulfate is precipitated... that means that you could simply heat things up a bit, then filter off the sodium sulfate and you would be good to go for another round saving massive amounts of time.

Still though it would require over 20 gallons of vinegar to make 1 gallon of GAA once losses are factored in and eat up a lot of time.

garage chemist - 22-3-2006 at 05:02

What's up with all the people trying to use vinegar?
Vinegar is possibly the worst precursor to GAA you can use, with about 5% acetic acid content.

There is a product sold for descaling, cleaning and for food use (after dilution of course) that consists of 25% acetic acid and nothing else but water (it says so on the back). It carries a warning sign saying "Irritant" and "Caution: Do not consume undiluted".
It is called "Essigessenz" in germany, and the appropriate english name for it would most likely be "spirits of vinegar" or "essence of vinegar".
I use this product all the time when aqueous acetic acid is required. Perfect for making sodium acetate by adding Na2CO3, which happens to be sold as "washing soda" for about 1€ per 500g.

I have heard that a product consisting of 60% acetic acid is sold for use in commercial kitchens, though apparently it is only sold to commercial users.

If you need GAA, go to the pharmacy and let them order a liter for you. It is absolutely not worth the effort to make it yourself, even when you have 25 or 60% acetic acid.

I tried to distill the 25% AcOH through a column once, and the boiling point remained constant at 100°C. The distillate contained as much acetic acid as the residue!
I think it was due to my column being ineficient, since the liquid didn't wet the glass but condensed as small droplets inside it. I think it was contaminated with silicone oil, I heard that silicone oil does this and renders the column ineffective for fractionation of watery liquids.

jack-sparrow - 22-3-2006 at 05:49

1) Couple months ago , I prepared about 2.3 kg of acetic acid containing about 1-2 percent water. You can distill out water over a glass helices column (1 inch wide * 6 feet tall) then distill out acetic acid. The temperature change is drastic from 100 to 115 degC when the water is gone. I did not check however if the distilled water contained acetic acid because GC columns dont like water. If you have a little bit of water in acetic acid, there is no problem to remove it.

2) Darkblade48 : Household vinegar is simply made from diluting industrial glacial acetic acid which is produced by the Monsanto process consisting in the carbonylation of methanol.

3) Evil_lurker : I would be afraid that sodium sulfate would also trap the acetic acid in the crystalline clusters and you would lose a considerable amount of it.

12AX7 - 22-3-2006 at 07:02

Re: 2) -- you sure of that? I think most products have to be as natural as possible, i.e., why they don't allow industrial ethanol in alcoholic drinks -- legally has to be fermented. Vinegar is a fermented product, too. Seems to me there's a faint odor of ethanol in vinegar, too (despite being distilled?) although I might be remembering wrong or confusing the smell.

Tim

jack-sparrow - 22-3-2006 at 07:31

I would not put my hand in the fire but the Monsanto process is THE cheapest way to make bulk acetic acid. You get methanol from the water-syngas process which is a cheap process too. The fermentation process seems to be a long one which is limited by the scaleup possibility. Acetic acid is one of the most mass produced chemical in the world. You need a fast and efficient way to generate huge quantities. I would think that it is the best source to make 5% aa solution for domestic market. By the way, Eastman offers food grade, Kosher glacial acetic acid !!!

look here http://www.eastman.com/Product_Information/ProductHome.asp?P...

In the case of ethanol, there are a lot of process to make it. In alcoholic drinks, it always come from the fermentation of natural sugars which generates also other flavors along with alcohol. Making a drink with absolute ethanol and fruit juice is a anti-gastronomic way to get hungover.

By the way, "natural" is a very confusing word because people tends to forget that there are no differences between natural and artificial chemicals when isolated in a pure form. Fermentation produced ethanol or synthetic ethanol is the same molecule. If it is pure, there are no possible distinctions. Same thing for vanilla, vitamin C or sodium bicarbonate.

evil_lurker - 22-3-2006 at 12:10

Unfortunately here in the USA, most phamacies only carry only pre-made stuff and compounding phamacies don't want to fool around with amateur chemists. Thats the reason why ppl want to use vinegar is because it is the most readily available acetic acid source there is.... the 20%+ stuff can be fairly difficult to find and if you had to order it would cost just as much to ship as the glacial due to extra water weight.

IIRC, the clear vinegar in the stores is actually the dark stuff that has been filtered over activated charcoal to remove impurities.

S.C. Wack - 22-3-2006 at 13:30

No studur, all vinegar (by definition) is made by fermentation.

[Edited on 22-3-2006 by S.C. Wack]

SC Wack is right

jack-sparrow - 22-3-2006 at 13:44

SC Wack : You are right. I went on the Heinz website and they state that their distilled white vinegar comes from corn. Which is known source of ethanol.
http://www.heinz.com/jsp/consumer_faq.jsp

In wikipedia, they state another process :

Quote:

Most vinegar today is made in submerged tank culture, first described in 1949 by Otto Hromatka and Heinrich Ebner. In this method, alcohol is fermented to vinegar in a continuously stirred tank, and oxygen is supplied by bubbling air through the solution. Using this method, vinegar of 15% acetic acid can be prepared in only 2–3 days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid

The Monsanto process is for the industrial glacial acetic acid

garage chemist - 22-3-2006 at 14:38

In Germany, pharmacies only carry pre- made stuff too.
If you want a chemical, they will always have to order it for you.
The catch is that pharmacies can order it (since they are authorised to do so) and are also authorised to sell chhemicals to the public if they have no reason for being suspicious of illegal use of the chemical. The worst they can do is to decline the request.
If you are old enough and don't order stupid shit like e.g. KNO3 (no pharmacy is going to sell you that! They know exactly that most people who want chemicals are trying to make illegal fireworks) chances are good that you will get what you want.

It is advantageous to tell the pharmacy from which supplier they should order, because it can get very expensive otherwise (they don't search for the cheapest supplier).

chromium - 22-3-2006 at 15:59

Quote:

Originally posted by evil_lurker
You start off with anhydrous sodium sulfate (which just happens to be cheaper than dog poop) and adding it to vinegar over 38C then cooling it to form Glauber's salt (sodium sulfate decahydrate) and filtering off the acid. That is good, because anhydrous sodium sulfate can absorb 1.2 times its own weight in water then crystalize out of solution.

I once did similar thing with magnesium sulfate. It works but almost all acetic acid gets absorbed by drying agent. You probably need some special device to press acetic acid out of that powder. I did not find a way to do this. So i gave up and decided to use sulfuric acid and sodium acetate route.

leu - 22-3-2006 at 18:38

Unless one is unable to obtain GAA, there's no reason to consider purifying vinegar by such means, it's just too expensive in terms of time and energy

Just because an azeotrope isn't listed in a particular edition of CRC or Perry's Handbook doesn't mean it can't exist in our universe

Many combinations of compounds exhibit azeotropic behavior even though Lecat or Horsley don't list them, let alone such abbreviated lists as are in the Handbooks

According to Kushner, Tatsievskaya, Babich & Serafimov Zh Fiz Khim 40 3010 (1966); CA 66 39364b; acetic acid and water don't form an azeotrope at 50 mm Hg :cool:

learner - 22-3-2006 at 20:21

Reacting vinegar with sodium bicarbonate and boiling off the water to get sodium acetate. What does it typically look like as it boils down, It started of quite clear but as it is getting less and less it is getting darker and darker and I can't imagine it leaving white crystals of sodium acetate. The vinegar was distilled cane sugar variety, very clear, and the boiling vessel is large stainless steal pot.
Edit, its not as dark as I thought just looked dark in dark kitchen, but it is quite yellow is that normal.

[Edited on 23-3-2006 by learner]

neutrino - 22-3-2006 at 20:49

Are you sure of the neutrality of the solution? If the solution was acidic the steel might have been attacked slightly.

learner - 22-3-2006 at 23:34

It was neutral but has become slightly on the basic side as it has become concentrated.

praseodym - 23-3-2006 at 01:16

Wait, why would it be basic? What is it that have caused this increase in pH?

neutrino - 23-3-2006 at 03:19

Any residual sodium bicarbonate would have become the slightly basic sodium carbonate. I still don't see where the impurities would come from. Such a weak base would have a hard time attacking steel.

learner - 23-3-2006 at 04:48

Yes that would explain it being basic quite well, adding a bit more vinegar(fizzing) got it back to neutral. The stainless steel pot doesn't look like it has reacted in anyway. The vinegar I started with(8litres) was distilled and very clear with that crystal clear sparkle that good clean vinegar has, it got yellower as the water boiled off and now down to 2litres has the colour of yellow printer ink in a bottle but still has that sparkle that white vinegar has and looks clean despite being yellow . I also might note that this is my second attempt, the first time I used Cleaning vinegar which is just high acetic acid content vinegar and had similar allthough darker results, but put it down to possibly the fact that I boiled it off outside on a grill over a wood fire and thought that smoke might have adulterated it. This second time Standard distilled vinegar and boiled off inside on the gas stovetop, but similar results allthough lighter. The stainless steel pot is in common for both times. I had read to do it in a glass or iron pot but having nothing that size just went with the stainless steel pot I allready had. I'll finish evapotating it tomorrow and post the colour of the crystals I end up with.

[Edited on 23-3-2006 by learner]

[Edited on 23-3-2006 by learner]

evil_lurker - 23-3-2006 at 11:12

Its probably the heat at the bottom of the pot causing slight thermal decomposition.

unionised - 23-3-2006 at 12:14

Loss of residual CO2 perhaps?
Since vinegar is made from fermented stuff it's quite possible that some sugars etc get carried over in the distilled product. These would caramelise when boiled in weak base.

"Just because an azeotrope isn't listed in a particular edition of CRC or Perry's Handbook doesn't mean it can't exist in our universe". True, but that fact that someone distilled the acid to better than the reported azeotrope does and, unless I missed the point that's what this means.
"Couple months ago , I prepared about 2.3 kg of acetic acid containing about 1-2 percent water. You can distill out water over a glass helices column (1 inch wide * 6 feet tall) then distill out acetic acid. The temperature change is drastic from 100 to 115 degC when the water is gone"

(The azeotrope seems only to be listed in the older versions- I think it was a mistake and has been remove from later versions of the CRC book.)

Magpie - 23-3-2006 at 12:42

Whether or not there is an azeotrope was also hashed out in the 5 page thread "acetic acid/sodium hydroxide."

Here is one of my posts from that thread that may be of use:

"Vinegar at 5wt% acetic acid is 1.6 mole% in acid. According to the vapor-liquid equilibrium data I found at the library the liquid and vapor composition at this liquid concentration are very nearly equal. This I believe makes concentration of the acid by distillation impossible or at least impractical.

I also checked "Azeotropic Data" by Gmehling et al (1994). There were 52 citations! Pressures ranged from 1.07 kPa to 5864.7 kPa with 31 citations at 101.7 kPa (atmospheric pressure). All of the references indicated "none" for existence of an azeotrope.

Needless to say I'm giving up on distillation of vinegar. "

I did made some 65% acetic acid (from vinegar) via calcium acetate distillation with hydrochloric acid.

@ OP

jack44556677 - 24-1-2019 at 21:25

I couldn't find his books / words, but I think I've found the process.

https://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10545

https://books.google.com/books?id=d8lCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA372&...

Basically, the chemical process of adsorption was discovered by Lowitz and he went charcoal mad as a result, I would too. He found that some of the acetic acid is being absorbed into the charcoal (adsorption) where it can become much more concentrated than it can easily become in/with water. By continually dripping / soaking and swirling the vinegar over the charcoal powder (with or without distillation / heating from below causing ultimately plain water to distill over) you end up with concentrated acetic acid in the charcoal that you can extract out again with another solvent. According to the sciencemaddness link above, the concentration can go as high as maybe 30% with no distillation/heat and maybe more like 40% with distillation. Those numbers seem to be contradicted by the book I linked to above, which suggests that by alternating between freezing the high percentage vinegar and seperating the solids, then continuing to distill with more charcoal powder that GAA can indeed be obtained.

The way he (and others from the time) describe it, it sounds as if there may actually be small GAA crystals inside / with the charcoal powder..... My understanding is that if you could just get a few seed crystals, just slowly dripping regular vinegar over it will slowly build the crystal bigger.

zed - 1-2-2019 at 17:35

I was impressed by an older post. 2006..Garage Chemist:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Germany, pharmacies only carry pre- made stuff too.
If you want a chemical, they will always have to order it for you.
The catch is that pharmacies can order it (since they are authorised to do so) and are also authorised to sell chhemicals to the public if they have no reason for being suspicious of illegal use of the chemical. The worst they can do is to decline the request.
If you are old enough and don't order stupid shit like e.g. KNO3 (no pharmacy is going to sell you that! They know exactly that most people who want chemicals are trying to make illegal fireworks) chances are good that you will get what you want.

It is advantageous to tell the pharmacy from which supplier they should order, because it can get very expensive otherwise (they don't search for the cheapest supplier).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's a big world, and regulations are wildly inconsistent.

In the U.S., ordering KNO3 in order to make fireworks, or whatever.... Would probably be considered innocuous.

Well, I checked. Pyrotechnics suppliers limit you to 1lb per year w/o a license. Other folks may be less restrictive.

GAA we can buy without restriction, but it isn't cheap.

[Edited on 2-2-2019 by zed]

[Edited on 2-2-2019 by zed]

Quieraña - 25-8-2019 at 10:11

I am really curious about the charcoal filtration method. To me it sounds as if some form of crystal or adduct is created and I wonder if you even have to powder the charcoal. Maybe like aquarium charcoal those little rocks would be could be even better because there would be more little pockets I don't know you know but I wonder if the amount of time you let the vinegar sit and gets soaked up in the charcoal makes a difference or not though I'm leaning towards the former. Also has anybody followed almost the instructions in the name of it glacial acetic acid I would wonder if you just froze the vinegar and collected the liquid? Again all I have are my thoughts on this no application at this time but physical practice towards actual production of OTC to not-so-OTC chemicals is in the mail so to speak, as in I feel the need to get back into the practice as the temperature outside is starting to fall being almost September and since I do all my chemistry outside. Great stuff guys you have contributed to not just more knowledge education but more curiosity and that in and of itself the curiosity is a gift because it ensures a purpose for living besides just existing day to day. Yeah without chemistry without science in general I am so bored.. until I am actively practicing chemistry I am vicariously doing the experiments right next to you in spirit so thank you for your descriptions your pictures your humor and even some of the rough criticism I've seen though rarely.

Quieraña - 25-12-2019 at 08:26

Hello again and Merry Christmas to those of you who celebrate Christmas and Happy Holidays all others. Anyways looking at these posts above, somebody had mentioned an industrial process of oxidizing essentially a fermentation tank to make ethyl alcohol in h2o with constantly stirred water and aeration and time. This makes me wonder: could I simply take denatured alcohol (95% etoh, ~5% meoh and <1% denatonium) and perhaps strong hydrogen peroxide ( since I'm at this time limited only to over-the-counter chemicals AZ I'm in a credit bind and some Catalyst, be it as a base or acid, even say copper seems actually likely perhaps passing ethyl alcohol through a copper tube really the whole purpose once you get to acetaldehyde you've got acetic acid coming right around the corner if you let it sit out in the open, or in that aquarium tank which is what I'm visualizing anyways with constant and continuous aeration until you cannot but smell glacial acetic acid emanating from said tank. And as far as I understand it is not possible to dehydrate acetic acid to the anhydride by way of Oleum, absolute sulfuric acid, and acetic acid in its highest Purity as the acid. If it's not about the experimentation but simply acquiring the chemical GAA and all you have like myself is OTC chemicals then this is exactly what I would do: I would take any kind of vinegar it wouldn't matter if it's balsamic or white distilled although distilled white vinegar is what I would prefer given it's absolutely clear and lime or slaked lime added to it drying the salt that forms calcium acetate simply taking this salt and add sulfuric acid to it in the form drain cleaner from Lowe's (the high-test one that's pink not black as that stuff is gross although you could probably use the black one even though it looks terrible) and then simply distilling that. I don't have a distillation setup so it's simply not a likely possibility at this time. When I finally have proper lab equipment including quartz glass test tubes (hmm, makes me wonder if there sapphire glassware) and a wonderful distillation setup with multiple distillation columns Etc, I'm going to go ahead and make myself a ketene lamp and go from there now that is one of the easiest ways and then there is the methyl acetate method I can't remember that one I think it's methyl acetate and sulfuric acid distilled but I'm not 100% sure on that I read it in a book in prison and write it in a journal in a pile of papers somewhere I'll dig through the paper and find it I quote it directly from the book it was a classroom textbook on chemistry and it was in the back just before the appendix started. No I'm not a hundred percent sure that that's exactly what was described but methyl acetate or it wasn't ethyl formate I think it really was methyl acetate shouldn't wonder if it's ethyl acetate I'm missing something I don't know shouldn't that work ethyl acetate and sulfuric acid? And as acetate is a common replacement for acetone especially in countries that fear acetone. Now I just made that up in theory so I don't know if it works but I cannot see in my mind why not.

annaandherdad - 25-12-2019 at 08:50

Quote: Originally posted by jack-sparrow

Saw this old comment by jack-sparrow and had to add something. I know someone here (Rich Muller) who entertains audiences by telling them that it is illegal in the US to sell wine that is not radioactive. This of course alarms certain people.

Eventually at the end of his talk it emerges that the authorities distinguish industrial alcohol from that produced by fermentation by the fact that the latter contains carbon 14, while industrial alcohol, whose source of carbon is typically petroleum, does not.

Apparently the law originates from lobbyists for the wine industry.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

wakatutu - 25-12-2019 at 08:55

Oxidizing ethanol seems to be the easiest way. I've tried neutralizing vinegar with sodium hydroxide, evaporating all the water out, loading it into a RBF, adding enough sulfuric acid to neutralize the sodium ions, and vacuum distilling the whole mess. I obtained very little acetic acid, and it wasn't as pure as glacial acetic acid, it had some water in it. And the distillation was very bumpy. It seems much easier to purify ethanol from a natural or hardware store source, then simply oxidize it to ethanal and then to ethanoic acid.

[Edited on 25-12-2019 by wakatutu]

S.C. Wack - 25-12-2019 at 11:16

Quote: Originally posted by learner

Trying to Find Info On Johann Tobias Lowitz's 1789 method of concentrating Dilute acetic acid by repeatedly passing over charcoal. I can find very little info other than that he obtained GAA in this manner.

Löwitz is mentioned on the first page of the excellent 1885 book Acetic acid and vinegar, ammonia, and alum (John Gardner) from google or archive.org, but not his process, so it must not be that great. So it sounds like it's just chromatography and charcoal is the adsorbent.

Quote: Originally posted by MadHatter

What about other desiccants ?

Calcium chloride in a desiccator apparently removes water but not acetic acid.

Quote: Originally posted by evil_lurker

You start off with anhydrous sodium sulfate.

So, bisulfate isn't formed? It is said that vinegar distilled with bisulfate yields a more concentrated vinegar, beyond what one would expect from getting the undistillable crap out.

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack

No studur, all vinegar (by definition) is made by fermentation.

Er well USA definition. As leu might say, your mileage may vary.

Quote: Originally posted by learner

It started of quite clear but as it is getting less and less it is getting darker and darker and I can't imagine it leaving white crystals of sodium acetate.

This is why one separates it from undistillable crap first.

Quote: Originally posted by praseodym

Wait, why would it be basic? What is it that have caused this increase in pH?

It's the salt of a strong base and weak acid.

Quote: Originally posted by Quieraña

drain cleaner from Lowe's

I suggest concentrating their battery acid.

Quote: Originally posted by annaandherdad

I know someone here (Rich Muller) who entertains audiences

People are entertained by bullshit far more than by facts.

Quote: Originally posted by annaandherdad

industrial alcohol, whose source of carbon is typically petroleum

I wonder if more corn ethanol is used to make ethylene than the other way around, because very little ethylene is converted. 2018 had some 16 billion gallons ethanol (including 2-5% gasoline or pentanes denaturant) produced from 5.5 billion bushels of corn.

Quote: Originally posted by wakatutu

I've tried neutralizing vinegar with sodium hydroxide, evaporating all the water out, loading it into a RBF, adding enough sulfuric acid to neutralize the sodium ions, and vacuum distilling the whole mess. I obtained very little acetic acid, and it wasn't as pure as glacial acetic acid, it had some water in it. And the distillation was very bumpy.

Maybe you did everything wrong! The right way should go smoother.

Quieraña - 25-12-2019 at 12:58

The method using the ester (I think from apples) methyl acetate? This one was relatively simple once the ester is acquired.. I want to know how to make methyl acetate. Yet ethyl acetate like I said earlier is much easier to acquire and it's not sulfuric acid you add to it it's carbon monoxide so either using formic acid and some reductant I can't think of or burning charcoal like in a smoker and running that smoke into a tube and bubble that through the methyl acetate or perhaps even ethyl acetate. Please note that I have never done this and I'm not sure and so these are nothing but speculations and so for that I do apologize I don't like to waste people's time

[Edited on 25-12-2019 by Quieraña]