Sciencemadness Discussion Board - UK/Europe question, explosive or propellant

UK/Europe question, explosive or propellant

Little_Ghost_again - 28-12-2014 at 02:59

Hi
I dont want to go into detail yet but I wondered if anybody knew where in the UK the line is drawn between rocket fuel and terrorist explosive.
I know in the states you have alot of leeway with explosives but in the uk things are different.
In another thread I mention a school project where we are making rocket cars in small groups(mostly CO2 powered), I had assumed I was the only one considering a hybrid rocket motor or something like that.
Apparently NOT! Someone else in my class had a similar idea and decided upon solid fuel rocket, his group want to use KNO3 and sugar mix 65/35 ratio.
I heard this morning though that the kid with the mix has been arrested under anti terror laws and is being held without a solicitor or adult present (allowed under terror rules), so this got me thinking.....................
At what point in the UK do you need a explosives license? and how much KNO3 can you add to sugar before you get arrested and lose your rights? Things have gone too far and this is stupid, I know for a FACT that he had 100g of KNO3 because he got it from me. Obviously they dont know that yet as my door hasnt been kicked in, but I am sure it will be over the next few days, so from scientist to terrorist in one easy step!
BTW the kid is same age as me 14 and was arrested last night, he hasnt tried any of the motors out yet they have just been made and left ready for next term

forgottenpassword - 28-12-2014 at 03:13

It's best not to give chemicals to other people for exactly this reason. You manage to own potassium nitrate without getting yourself arrested, your friend obviously can't control his impulses to go around shouting that he can make a bomb and gets himself arrested! Problem for you is that he's going to tell them that you gave it to him.

People don't get arrested for nothing. He was obviously making an exhibition of himself in earshot of someone who was concerned or alarmed by his words. No reason not to go ahead with your solid rocket propellant as planned, though!

Little_Ghost_again - 28-12-2014 at 03:54

Quote: Originally posted by forgottenpassword

It's best not to give chemicals to other people for exactly this reason. You manage to own potassium nitrate without getting yourself arrested, your friend obviously can't control his impulses to go around shouting that he can make a bomb and gets himself arrested! Problem for you is that he's going to tell them that you gave it to him.

People don't get arrested for nothing. He was obviously making an exhibition of himself in earshot of someone who was concerned or alarmed by his words. No reason not to go ahead with your solid rocket propellant as planned, though!

He got arrested because he tested one in the garage and it went off with a bit of a bang, someone called the police because it sounded like a shot gun blast. The police went around there looking for illegal weapons like guns.
He isnt the type to go boasting hence why I let him have it, The police up where I am have some very fucked up ideas. I now order all chemicals via mum and dads company. When we first moved in because the house had been empty for 2 years we decided to turn all the heating on for a few weeks even though it was summer, we put a polly tunnel up as well. We had been here 11 weeks when the police did a drugs raid based on the amount of electric used had suddenly increased.
They didnt take into account that the house was empty for two years!! So when we moved in and started work etc on the house the electric bill shot up and the electric company contacted the police.
They were utterly convinced we had a cannabis farm somewhere on our property, They even had some emails from my dad to the electric company asking for the electric to be connected quickly as I had drugs that needed to be kept very cold and it was a hot summer.
They produced them as proof! Until my dad pointed to the fridge with my drugs in and said read the fucking labels they are chemo drugs. They still took them away and had them looked at, by the time I got them back they were fucked.
My mum and dad have to pay for my treatment so it wasnt cheap!
I will carry on with my experiments and they are welcome to arrest me, the problem is the law allows them to take away your rights if your a suspect terrorist, so in theory they could stop me having treatment for a few days.
What gets me is it isnt a controlled chemical here so why the fuss? Many things go bang in garages (they do in our garage anyway), when did people start thinking it was ok to grass up there fucking neighbor? When exactly did the UK become so unfriendly? Its appalling that people think its ok to go poking there nose in other peoples lives.

forgottenpassword - 28-12-2014 at 04:08

To be fair, if most people hear a loud bang they're going to think 'gun' rather than 'potassium nitrate/sugar solid rocket fuel propellant test'. Maybe they thought someone had shot their wife?! It goes on, you know.
As for Scotland being unfriendly: I think it's been the case for at least 2000 years. Hadrian didn't have a wall built for nothing!
Personally I prefer discrete science rather than loud bangs. If people have no reason to interfere then they won't. If they do have a reason then their first port of call is the police. Obviously in this case you don't have much choice, though! It helps to live in a remote location regardless, I think!

[Edited on 28-12-2014 by forgottenpassword]

HgDinis25 - 28-12-2014 at 04:21

Regardless of anything, arresting a 14 year old UK citizen, with no priors, because he had Potassium Nitrate is completly fucked up. However these clowns were able to go one step further. They arrested him as a terrorist and took his rights away. A 14 year old boy arrested as a terrorist...

IMHO, the only terrorists here are the police that arrested him and did such cruel act. Taking an innocent civilian, incarcerating him, removing all of his rights, and scaring the shit out of him is exactly what terrorism is all about. What those police officers are doing is a crime and a violation of the Human Rights Declaration.

They're the ones who are the terrorists!

Little_Ghost_again - 28-12-2014 at 05:09

Lets be clear about this, he is 14 and has had NO contact with legal council or his parents or a adult appointed to be present at his interviews, it is the only thing in the UK you can do this by.
Under any other circumstances he would have had legal council and a adult present during interview.
But what about innocent until proven guilty?
There was meant to be protection in these laws so they were used only in extreme circumstances, we were promised that they would never be used against people without a extreme reason.
I know this kid and he is one the good ones, he will not be handling this well at all, he wont be at court until weds. This hearing will be the one we hope he is released but its a closed hearing so who knows.
I doubt it was ever meant to go bang, and so what it made a noise.To me this is a very very bad sign of just how few rights we now have, if anything this kind of thing makes me have much less respect for the law and those that make them.
I hope the arse holes responsible for arresting him are locked up for this. I have no idea why they havnt turned up here yet, unless they are planning a raid or something. Makes me wonder what they going to say about some the stuff I have lol

forgottenpassword - 28-12-2014 at 05:33

If his parents had the inclination and enough money they could certainly get a good lawyer to press charges and make heads roll on a number of counts. I'm guessing that they don't and won't, though.
Yes, the whole business is fucked up, but what can you do: call the police?!

It's best never to give anyone a reason to call the police on you, but frankly making an explosion in a residential area IS giving someone cause to call the police, as evidenced by the fact that someone did!

As I said before, you manage to own this chemical without getting arrested. He had it for a few days and got arrested. Maybe he shouldn't have had it.

[Edited on 28-12-2014 by forgottenpassword]

Little_Ghost_again - 28-12-2014 at 06:16

Quote: Originally posted by forgottenpassword

If his parents had the inclination and enough money they could certainly get a good lawyer to press charges and make heads roll on a number of counts. I'm guessing that they don't and won't, though.
Yes, the whole business is fucked up, but what can you do: call the police?!

It's best never to give anyone a reason to call the police on you, but frankly making an explosion in a residential area IS giving someone cause to call the police, as evidenced by the fact that someone did!

As I said before, you manage to own this chemical without getting arrested. He had it for a few days and got arrested. Maybe he shouldn't have had it.

[Edited on 28-12-2014 by forgottenpassword]

I expect he got the reaction a bit wrong and it went bang, the big difference is I live MILES from ANYONE! our nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away and is a farm, my friend lives in the village.
I dont know exactly what happened but it couldnt have been that big a bang and even if it was why use the anti terror laws? a few grams of a non controlled chemical made a loud noise in an experiment that went wrong..............SO FUCKING what!! Ok call the police if your that way inclined but what has got me is the total lack of fucking sense by the police, he is a white kid nice house no background and nothing to indicate that he is a terrorist.
These new laws are being used wrongly, freedom is clearly an illusion now in the uk.
My dad made a point the other day........He said that when he was growing up during the cold war they had a constant fear of nuclear war, the IRA was bombing people on the uk main land etc etc so in the UK we have had terrorism for a long time, these laws having fuck all to do with terrorism or fighting it. Its about control.
9/11 didnt happen in the UK and yet we have reacted to it far more than the states where it did happen, no one stops you over there carrying guns or making bombs to blow up trees on you tube, so why do we feel the need to hold people for WEEKS without them even being allowed legal advice or contact with the outside world.
I hope our local MP steps in here and gets a sheriff court to hold a special session monday. Dont forget he hasnt done anything at all wrong, making a loud bang even with KNO3 isnt illegal, he hasnt been charged with any offense and yet his rights have been denied him.
Its about time people woke up in the UK and stop taking the piss out of dictatorships because we are living in a far worse country than those that our government condemn. Good job he only made a big bang and not film taking the piss out of the government.
I dont think older people get just how much this affects people my age, in scotland they are trying to get the vote for 16 and 17 year olds. I hope people of that age group do vote if they get the chance. Dad is concerned about my lab and has told me to just say its his stuff, but why should I? I have called the BBC etc but they cant report it apparently.
I know some will think my friend messed up, but he really isnt like that. I am guessing he made the exhaust nozzle too small and it went bang, it couldnt have been that bad as he didnt have much KNO3 and has been trying out loads of different exhaust shapes, I was due to sell him some more KNO3 as he was getting low

Scr0t - 28-12-2014 at 18:42

Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again

Makes me wonder what they going to say about some the stuff I have lol

It's no laughing matter. You are potentially involved in some anti-terrorism investigation, you have no expectation that they will be reasonable or rational, maybe they will or maybe they wont.

You have admitted to providing material support to a suspected terrorist. Simply accessing this site with its energetics forum could misconstrued as a terrorist act

Little_Ghost_again - 29-12-2014 at 05:02

Well 4 am this morning I was arrested, at 5 am a doctor declared I was unfit to be held in custody and I was released on police bail. I am under a gag order and the whole thing is now under what is called D notice (google it), I am technically breaking the order by telling this but this afternoon a special hearing is being held and my friend WILL be released, after that its a matter of them trying to cover there arse.
I know its not a laughing matter but i refuse to run away from these people, I am appalled my parents and other adults paid so little attention and showed such apathy that slowly our rights got eroded away because complete arse holes got voted in.
They havent charged me with any crimes and I seriously doubt after this afternoon they will try and continue with this.

Little_Ghost_again - 29-12-2014 at 09:31

Mad update
I got a call and have to return in the morning to the police station where I will be formerly charged with conspiracy to cause an act of terrorism or some shit or other.
They had the cheek to ask me to present myself!! I think I will wait for them to come and get me. I have no idea where they get these idiots from,

forgottenpassword - 29-12-2014 at 09:49

That IS quite mad. Are they aware that your friend was making rockets for a school project, rather than bombs for a terrorist attack?! It seems like there's a fundamental misunderstanding somewhere. Unless he's confessed to making pipe bombs or something. I suspect that that's precisely what they've tricked him in to 'confessing'.

Keep your chemicals to yourself next time! You can't even trust your friends not to get you involved in terrorism charges these days! Well, it'll make an interesting anecdote once it's all blown over.

It's an absurd court appearance where two fourteen year old boys submit their homework assignment sheets as evidence in their defense! I think even a bad lawyer could get you off this one. But what are they thinking in the first place?! Watch out for insane people, they are unpredictable!

[Edited on 29-12-2014 by forgottenpassword]

Scr0t - 29-12-2014 at 12:26

I know what it's like. I was arrested when I was teenager for one of my experiments and while I managed to get off without a criminal record the whole process is drawn-out and was very stressful on both me and my family.
The experience did teach me some valuable lessons though, the two most important being...
1. Don't get caught
2. Keep your trap shut

Don't let these bastards intimidate or deter you you from pursuing your interests.

Have they searched your premises/computer?

It's things like this make me angry and fill me with contempt for such people. What they are doing fosters disrespect for the law and is thus counterproductive and arguably an abuse of the law.

The police must love these new anti-terrorism powers and so they probably try to frame everything in terms of terrorism so that they can utilize them like a kid with a shiny new toy. It's not like we didn't already have laws to deal with these issues.

It's not just them though it's the CPS that determined the charge and to press forward with this.

I wouldn't be surprised if GCHQ has infested your computer with some of their finest malware via QUANTUMINSERT and then next render you to a black site in Diego Garcia for a bit of the old 'enhanced interrogation'.
More seriously though your telecommunications are probably flagged by the above party as more 'interesting'.

Loptr - 29-12-2014 at 12:37

I wish you the best of luck, little ghost.

This doesn't sound like a good situation. I would recommend doing whatever it takes to remove yourself from the situation, even if that means being extremely humble and apologetic. This is all a simple misunderstanding, right?

Whether we like it or not, these people hold our freedom, and those around us, in their hands.

It's best to not call them out on their grades in school, call them names, or confuse them with schematics.

It's time to live to fight another day.

[Edited on 29-12-2014 by Loptr]

Have you made the paper, yet? Link maybe?

[Edited on 29-12-2014 by Loptr]

Little_Ghost_again - 29-12-2014 at 14:12

It wont make the news yet as the original arrest was under a D notice
http://www.dnotice.org.uk/danotices/danotice_05.htm

Yes this was purely homework, the suggestion was we use citric acid and sodium carbonate to make a rocket car in small groups, a couple of us are not in any of the teams and do our own thing. I decided using a hybrid rocket and my friend a solid fuel motor.
These are very very small cars and the motors tiny, he was given 100g of potassium nitrate by me and had already used 60g on experiments with it. I am using acrylic tube and H2O2 and a catalyst to make oxygen.
I have all kinds of chemicals and yet they have only taken the potassium nitrate away even though strictly speaking it belongs to a company and not me, mum has written to them to complain of theft on behalf of her company lol. Its a royal fuck up, There are some really serious microbes in dads lab at the moment and yet they are not interested in that, they are not interested in the 2 ton ammonium nitrate in the barn. There sole focus was the 400g of potassium nitrate I had (mum had technically).
My friend is not allowed to talk to me but did call to say he has told them the truth and I will do the same. Part of me wants this to go to the court so it can be used to show just what a fuck up the new law is. The police had no expert with them and during my first arrest could hardly string a chemical sentence together!
I was asked if I made explosives, did I intend to use the potassium nitrate as a car bomb!!! WTF I dont even drive at 14!
Did I know how to make explosives? Did I believe in the political views of IS??? Way way over the line questions, I was allowed a adult present and a solicitor my dad sat in with us.
in the end my solicitor tore holes in the questions and I was released without charge, now they want me back to charge me with 4 crimes!! the solicitor thinks they are completely off the scale and have NO chance in hell of even making it to court.
In the mean time my dad is going to apply for an explosives license just because he dosnt want any more hassle. They asked what forums I belong too I said no comment to that one as I belong to this and a few electronics sites.
They asked why I had so many circuit boards and I just replied because I do electronics, they asked if I could make a electronic device to control a bomb! I said no a self guiding quad copter was about the best I could do and a electronic fuse was beyond me lol

Scr0t - 29-12-2014 at 17:03

A lot of these "over the line" questions may just be the attempts of a partly incompetent interrogator at "escalation". Anyone with half a brain will not answer yes even if they did sympathize with IS.
It's done to scare and make you admit to a lesser crime so that you're not as bad as they make out but they will then hit you with the lesser crime that you admitted to.

Usually this method is combined with "isolation" to make you stew in a cell but I gather they did not do that to you.

The fact that they are pressing forward with this shows a different strategy to what I experienced and more along the lines of throw shit at a wall and hope some sticks. Whereas with me they only bothered to charge me with that they thought most likely to stick and didn't bother with anything else (different country and time, different strategy).
What a waste of taxpayers money these people are... don't they have anything better to do?

Bert - 29-12-2014 at 19:37

Hi.

A few observations:

Never lie to a policeman. Refuse to answer any non "life or death" questions without a lawyer present. Never provide more than the BARE MINIMUM of information to ANY questions, and only what your lawyer councils you to respond with. Never be hurried by your inquisitors.

Do not post online or share in any electronic medium ANY information contradictory to that which you provided to a policeman, prosecutor or other authority.

And STOP POSTING HERE until this is all settled.

[Edited on 30-12-2014 by Bert]

macckone - 29-12-2014 at 21:52

Unfortunately the truth is you may beat the rap but not the ride.
Little ghost never participated in the EM forum.
Although there is a thread about his model rocket project.
He could be dead before he clears his name

Bert's advice is good advice.

Little_Ghost_again - 30-12-2014 at 04:10

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

Unfortunately the truth is you may beat the rap but not the ride.
Little ghost never participated in the EM forum.
Although there is a thread about his model rocket project.
He could be dead before he clears his name

Bert's advice is good advice.

Yeah I will stop posting but will let you know the outcome, I dont post in the EM forum but do read it. If I am honest some the stuff you guys talk about and make would scare the shit out of me, there is one chemical I would love to make a crystal of and if its stable then I might just to add to my crystal collection.
Bangs and flashes dont really interest me, I like the hybrid rocket idea because of the way it works, I watched the chemistry society video from nottingham university about a lecture where they showed a small hybrid.
Utterly fascinating how they work and the amount of thrust produced.
Anyway I cant post more until this is all over

Loptr - 30-12-2014 at 08:07

I wish you the best of luck!

Fantasma4500 - 30-12-2014 at 08:10

"If people have no reason to interfere then they won't."-forgottenpassword, 2014

urgh. i kinda feel i have experience with the total opposite of this, not to mention at least 50 others i know
its totally incorrect, people may call the cops because theyre bored and what not, heavily medicated etc.
but yea, whatever information that could get you fucked you should keep for yourself

if you do chemistry, you should absolutely avoid the police or government, there will be people who will tell me the opposite, having only had positive experiences, yes that does happen. but under any circumstance dont tell a cop anything thats not life/death, even common smalltalk can get you behind bars.
i wish you good luck in this rather common case of police vs chemistry collision, again as bert also mentioned -- if they come to you say as little as possible, very likely they get bonus according to how serious 'criminals' they catch.

forgottenpassword - 30-12-2014 at 08:41

Well, you might have missed the fact that the kid made an explosion in his garage, and someone called the police thinking it was a gun shot. To me, that is certainly giving people a reason to interfere. You can play the hard done by victim all you like... You and your 50 mates who all got arrested for no reason at all. I don't think I even know that many people, let alone 50 other amateur chemists... Who also happen to have been wrongly arrested. You must be a very sociable chap... Or one of those types who exaggerates so wildly and so often that he starts to believe his own lies.

[Edited on 30-12-2014 by forgottenpassword]

Bert - 30-12-2014 at 09:50

Let's stick to OP, please take any unrelated politics/legal issues and internecine flaming to either PM's or whimsy-

macckone - 30-12-2014 at 13:39

It is a real tragedy that two school kids are being severely harassed for
something that is easily verifiable as a school project. Particularly with the
absurd terrorism charges. After reading the rules on D notices, it is obvious the
police are abusing their authority to put things under D notices.

D notices were intended to shield informants, undercover agents, officers and
methods specific to terrorism investigations. By calling anything terrorism they
can prevent release of any information regarding the case and no longer have
to apply the normal rules that apply to criminal defendants, ie. right to a lawyer
etc.

Unfortunately the new rules that went into effect require anyone distributing
KNO₃ to report 'suspicious' transactions. Little Ghost could get hung
up on that one. However the obvious defense is that he knew the kid had a
school project he was working on as he had a similar project.

aga - 30-12-2014 at 14:51

Fantasy. Pure fantasy.

Clearly you're a Jason Statham film fan.

macckone - 30-12-2014 at 15:42

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Fantasy. Pure fantasy.

Clearly you're a Jason Statham film fan.

Actually I am a fan.
Crank: High Voltage was hilarious.

Little_Ghost_again - 30-12-2014 at 15:57

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Fantasy. Pure fantasy.

Clearly you're a Jason Statham film fan.

Ah I read the U2U before I saw this, I get it now..............

Ok well the rest of the reply stands but I dont need the explanation as to why

Little_Ghost_again - 30-12-2014 at 16:15

I would prefer it if this thread was deleted, its caused a personal problem i dont want to discuss, but close it or delete it please