Sciencemadness Discussion Board - copper fulminate

copper fulminate

menchaca - 8-4-2003 at 03:50

Is the copper fulminate prepred in the same way that Hg or silver fulminate?
just absolut ethanol must be used?
or common 96% can be used?

thanks again!!

PHILOU Zrealone - 10-4-2003 at 05:17

Unfortunately no!

Hg(ONC)2 + 2Na --> 2NaONC + Hg
Hg(ONC)2 + Ca --> Ca(ONC)2 + Hg
Ca(ONC)2 + CuSO4 --> Cu(ONC)2 + CaSO4 (s)

Metathesis is the way to go!

Marvin - 10-4-2003 at 08:57

Reaction with Na or Ca isnt metathesis, its redox. Nor would I be happy actually doing this, what solvent? Not solid, cant be aq, would the reduction destroy the fulminate in the process?

Digestion of silver or mercury fulminate with sodium chloride is supposed to produce a solution of sodium fulminate. Many soluable TM chlorides should work as well here, but I'd expect silver to be much easier than mercry. I personally think that adding very dilute HCl to silver fulminate would work for producing a solution of fulminic acid, but excess acid, too high a Ph would probably destroy it by hydrolysis. In the specific case of making copper fulminate, copper powder will displace both silver and mercury from the corrisponding silver or mercury fulminate.

Keeping this all in solution is probably a good idea, some solid fulminates are supposed to be very unstable solids (relative to silver and mercury) and Ive read alarming things about solid sodium fulminate.

If it were me, I would make silver fulminate, and keep it wet at all times and digest with the chloride of choice. This despite the large difference in stability to physical shock of mercury fulminate. The amounts I play with I'm much more worried about the cumulative effect of toxic mercury build up than blowing bits of me apart. Silver salts are slightly toxic.

[Edited on 10-4-2003 by Marvin]

PHILOU Zrealone - 10-4-2003 at 10:31

Cu, Ag and Hg have the same electropositivity; thus none can be displaced by the other!
On the contrary a more reactive (reductive) metal like Na, Ca, Zn, Al would displace the Hg or Ag fulminate!

The process to pass from Hg(ONC)2 via NaONC to make Cu(ONC)2 that can't be made directly from Cu(NO3)2 + Ethanol + HNO3 (as Ag or Hg fulminates) IS A METATHESIS!!!!!

Edit by Polverone: not so many mad faces!

[Edited on 10-4-2003 by Polverone]

shock and horror!

Polverone - 10-4-2003 at 14:09

Quote:

Cu, Ag and Hg have the same electropositivity; thus none can be displaced by the other!

I never thought that I would catch Philou Zrealone in error! It is shocking and amazing

But Cu, Ag, and Hg certainly do not have the same electropositivity! Copper wire in silver nitrate solution soon becomes coated with silver crystals as the more electropositive copper is oxidized and less electropositive silver cations reduced.

PHILOU Zrealone - 10-4-2003 at 15:48

Ok you got me on the words!
I was refering on electropositivity as opposed to electronegativity!
Electronegativity of Hg, Ag, Cu is 1,9 and thus electropositivity is 2,1!

You spoke about electric potential and there it is true that Ag(+) is a stronger oxydiser than Cu(2+) and Cu(+) and Hg(2+) a little more than Ag(+)!
Thus Cu will displace Ag(+) and Hg(2+) salts and Ag will displace Hg(2+); but if the effect is strong with highly soluble nitrate salts it will be another story for the very unsoluble Hg and Ag fulminates- read very slow and uncomplete --> USELESS!
The use of Zn, Al, Mg, Ca, Na will help a lot because potential difference is bigger what gives some drive force to the reaction and with a proper choice, you will get a soluble fulminate salt that will allow nearly all metathesis one could think off!

:cool:

Marvin - 12-4-2003 at 14:31

Mercury fulminate with fine copper powder works very well, though I cant remeber which book I read it in. It might well be mellor volume III, which I dont own a copy of, so I cant check. Its not grindingly slow or incomplete to all intents and purposes, that isnt how redox works, which is one of the few nice things about redox generally. Solubility of silver fulminate is about 1g/litre at room temp so I wouldnt call this highly insoluable either.

If you are primarily concerned with the solubility, I dont see how a better reducing agent would be faster, its the concentration of the ions in the solvent in contact with the surface area of the metal being oxidised that make the biggest difference here. Unless that is you are producing secondary reducing agents like hydrogen which are partially solable in the medium and thus break the surface area problem.

Using sodium or calcium metal sounds downright dangerous, and I suspect they are strong enough to reduce the fulminate itself, even assuming a suitable solvent can be found.

My idea about silver and sodium chloride wont work. Only half of the silver is precipitated according to one of my older books, becuase it forms a silver fulminate/ sodium fulminate double salt. Same problem with potassium. Copper chloride may or may not work. I think it stands more chance.

The same method with mercury fulminate is supposed to work properly (one of the Faraday lectures I think), though the key word here is 'digest'.

Replacing the metal atom in mercury fulminate isnt automatically metathesis, this is the exchange of the radical componants of salts. If you add copper powder for example, to produce copper fulminate and mercury metal, its not metathesis.

What about

Boob Raider - 13-4-2003 at 20:34

Having a solution of Hg(ONC)2 in NH4OH and adding dilute NaOH solution in it. Wouldn't that ppt. out the Hg from the complex and leave NaONC in or out of solution.
Actually, I think Hg(OH)2 will be soluble in NH4OH and NaONC won't. This is just a thought, may or may not work.

[Edited on 14-4-2003 by Boob Raider]

PHILOU Zrealone - 14-4-2003 at 05:23

I just wonder how soluble is Cu fulminate?
If it is unsoluble (what I think) it will coat the Hg fulminate grains very fast reducing the speed of reaction!Because Cu(2+) will have to pass the Cu fulminate coating!

In all my books where fulminate is mentionned they speak about Na fulminate to be used for precipitation reactions of various fulminates; Cu included!
True that there is a mention about the Cu powder as a way to make it but no doubt purity and isolability is much easier when you start from a very soluble Na fulminate!

Na or Ca methanolate?Would do the job!
I really think Na2S and CaS will get you somewhere since HgS is hell unsoluble (solubility is inferior to 1 molecule per liter!!!! Ks = 2*10e(-49))!

Marvin - 14-4-2003 at 11:54

PAS Smith has a reference from 1894 that uses dilute sodium amalgam to make sodium fulminate from mercury fulminate. This can be done and it sounds a lot safer than I thought, so you got me there.

In a 'doh' moment I remebered fedoroff, and this is the most detailed information on copper fulminates.

The synth it mentions for Copper(I) fulminate is copper amalgam acting on silver fulminate in an atmosphere of hydrogen, I think copper turnings would work. This is a water insuluable powder which is pretty much expected for a psuedohalogen copper(I) compound, Id have thought of this before, but what I assumed we were trying to make was 'copper(II) fulminate', the fact copper metal reduces copper(II) ions to copper (I) should have tipped me off about this, dumb dumb dumb.

Copper(II) fulminate isnt listed. Assuming this exists, Id expect it to be water soluable, but from what I'm reading this isnt whats is usually refered to as 'copper fulminate'.

There are quite a few complexes that copper fulminates form, and this branch of chemistry seems to be a mess. In particular mixing sodium fulminate with copper(I) chloride at RT produces copper(I) disodium fulminate as a ppt, and at 80C, sodium copper(I) fulminate. A copper(II) nitrite solution acting on a sat solution of sodium copper(I) fulminate produces copper(II) dicopper(I) fulminate ppt. What with fulminate being a psudohalogen, I should have furthur suspected this chemistry might be dominated by complexes.

What with the increased complexity, and problems using the less toxic silver compounds, I nolonger plan to try any of these at least in the near future.

PHILOU Zrealone - 2-6-2003 at 06:36

There is also a mention about a trimeric fulminic acid --> fulminuric acid...some kind of cyanuric and isocyanuric acid isomer!

Cyanuric acid is (-C(OH)=N-)3
Isocyanuric acid is (-CO-NH-)3
Fulminuric acid is (-CH=N(O)-)3
or (-C=N(OH)-)3 where the carbon is trivalent (carbon is not always tetravalent ex C=O, R-NC (carbylamines)!
Thus we have trimerisation of the possible isomers of cyanic acid:
HO-C#N cyanic acid
HN=C=O isocyanic acid
H-C#N->O
HO-N=C

Fulminuric acid is unstable (but a little more than fulminic acid) and displays unsoluble explosive salts that are heat sensitive.
More stable and powerful than usual fulminates!

:cool:

PHILOU Zrealone - 2-6-2003 at 06:48

I meant that fulminuric acid is more stable than fulminic acid!Thus less unstable and not "more" unstable as I wrote by inadvertancy

a123x - 15-7-2003 at 21:57

How sensitive is copper fulminate to friction, shock, and static? I'm considering making it in the future(once I get TNP and one other nitroaromatic made). Is copper fulminate about the same as mercury fulminate or even more sensitive like silver fulminate is from what I understand. A comparison to AP would be good to know. I would just consider making mercury fulminate but I don't have any mercury metal to use.

Madog - 16-7-2003 at 05:35

heres the stuff on itfrom federoff volume 3

cufulminate.png - 41kB

a123x - 16-7-2003 at 10:06

Thanks. It is good to know that about it being less sensitive to impact than mergury fulminate. I'll probably use the synth on powerlabs except replacing Hg with Cu. I wonder if denatured alcohol would work in the synth or not.

can't do that

Polverone - 16-7-2003 at 21:19

IIRC, only silver and mercury fulminate can be made directly. All others are made by displacement reactions between silver or mercury fulminate and different metals.

a123x - 16-7-2003 at 22:48

Always a bloody catch. Oh well, I'll just look into a more suitable primary then. Potassium picrate sounds a little weak but if it can at least DDT in confinement it might be usable and isn't particularly sensitive. I'd prefer potassium styphnate but resorcinol to make styphnic acid is hard to come by. Oh well, that's off topic anyway.

Any fulminate!

Theoretic - 21-7-2003 at 08:49

Quote:
"Fulminic acid is made by the action of nitric acid on alcohol."

The magic phrase! And I've met it in about 10 websites about fulminic acid!
Now CF is easy, isn't it? CuO + fulm. acid.
Or a fulminate of any metal you can get an oxide of.
A word of warning: fulm. acid is explosive and about as toxic as HCN.

Madog - 23-7-2003 at 21:11

wow, very nice, im gona have to try to verify.
anyone have a cluewhat the reaction would be?

ethyl nitrate is made via 70% HNO3/ethanol and distill off the ethyl nitrate, it is said that higher concentrations cause the HNO3 to do other reactions.

but, we see in the Hg fulminate thing, we use 70% acid, i wonder whats going on, damn.

i just tok a small amunt of ethanol i used sucessfuly for fulminate production, put it in a test tube and added a little 70% HNO3 which i also used inthe same synthisis, all i got was some warming. i smelled it and i think i could smell the ethyl nitrate, it has a damn low boiling point.

so, from what im lookingat here it says it must be somekind of reaction with the Hg nitrate and ethly nitrate.

perhaps high conc HNO3/ethanol makes fulminic acid?

Theoretic - 24-7-2003 at 06:40

Just after I made that post I've written a balanced equation for the reaction:
3HNO3+2C2H5OH=>3HONC+CO2+6H2O
High conc. HNO3... I suppose so.

Madog - 24-7-2003 at 08:27

i just found what i wanted, here we go

i wonder what makes the eaction happen at low conc with the synth of Hg fulminate.

fulminate.png - 104kB

Madog - 24-7-2003 at 10:14

i just added some absolute ethanol to concentrated HNO3, very vigourous. then added a little Cu nitrate solution, no ppt.

Theoretic - 25-11-2003 at 08:26

Any nitogen oxides observed? Then it was an oxidation, better reaction control needed. Gas evolution otherwise than NOx? Then the reaction probably did happen. No bubbling? Then, I think, ethyl nitrate has been produced. No precipitate has been produced for good reason, it isn't produced when you add H2O + CO2 to calcium nitrate, for example? What I mean is that fulminic acid is weak and the acidic environment doesn't allow the precipitation to occur. Dilute solutions could help.

Marvin - 25-11-2003 at 11:23

Its supposed to be an oxidation, you do get nitrogen oxides formed or you dont form any fulminic acid.

The problem is that fulminic acid is a partially oxidised product, and if left to its own devices will never occur in high concentration or yeild as it will be destroyed as fast as its formed. This is why the synthesis of silver and mercury fulminates work, they are virtually insoluable in the reaction mixture, so they ppt the fulminate ion protecting it from furthur oxidation. Its also the reason why virtually all other fulminates have to be made through silver or mercury. They dont form highly insoluable salts, so the reaction fails.

Theoretic - 26-11-2003 at 01:44

Marvin:
What you say probably does happen with an excess of HNO3 (or maybe even with the stochiometric amount), but otherwise, (with an excess of alcohol) I think, the partially reduced N atom would be integrated into the fulminic acid, which would be much less likely to be destroyed with an excess of alcohol.
Madog:
"i just added some absolute ethanol to concentrated HNO3"
As I said above, It would be better to have excess ethanol in the reaction zone... or maybe even generally, so adding the HNO3 to alcohol would probably work better. To test the results copper acetate would be better that strong-acid copper salts.

KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun) - 27-11-2003 at 13:22

I've read in some books that excess nitric must be used.
I think if there's excess alcohol, the nitrous acid (from oxidation of ethanol with nitric acid to acetaldehyde) will react with the excess alcohol forming ethyl nitrite instead of reacting with acetaldehyde (to form isonitrosoacetaldehyde/glymonoxime)
mechanism of formation of fulminic acid mentioned in chemistry of powder and explosives is differente from the one in chemistry of explosives
COPAE: HC(=NOH)COOH is nitrated by nitrogen dioxide which is present to form nitroisonitrosoacetic acid (O2NC(=NOH)COOH). this losses carbon dioxide to form formonoitrolic acid (HC(NO2

=NOH) wich decomposes further into nitrous acid and fulminic acid.
COE: HC(=NOH)COOH <s>   ></s> HON=C + HCOOH
I assume the reaction mechanism mentioned in COPAE is more appropriate. what do ya guys think?

Theoretic - 6-1-2004 at 05:41

I think nitration of Anything with NO2 isn't straightfroward, becaus it's a radical and leads to at least two different products, so it seems unlikely. The splitting of the molecule straight to fulminic acid seems very ready, the fulminic acid molecule is there almost complete. The COPAE route seems unlikelier still, as decarboxylation doesn't proceed spontaneously.
BTW, where did the product that seems to come from formaldehyde and not acetaldehyde come from? I don't see how formaldehyde could form at all. The combination of a carboxylic acid is also possible, and that's what is likely to hapopen as I will explain later on. The formaldehyde derivative seems unlikely unless the acetic acid that is the product of the reaction of the acetaldehyde derivative reacts with nitrous acid.
It also seems a waste to let HNO3 do the oxidation, maybe some H2O2 is permitted by the gods of chemistry, thus using nitrous acid for the product-forming reactions (directly, not derived from nitric acid), and H2O2 as the oxidizing agent?

KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun) - 7-1-2004 at 20:46

<blockquote>quote:<hr>It also seems a waste to let HNO3 do the oxidation<hr></blockquote>NaNO2 and H2O2 is more expensive than nitric. HNO3 oxidizes the alcohol to acetaldehyde and turns into nitrous acid which is needed to react with the acetaldehyde. due to unstabliy of HNO2 which is increased by higher T some NOx also forms and escapes from reaction vessel so we need excess nitrous acid. when using EtOH there'll be quite excess nitrous acid.
1. HNO3 + CH3CH2OH <s>   ></s> HNO2 + CH3CHO
2. HNO2 + CH3CHO <s>   ></s> HC(=NOH)CHO + H2O
3. HC(=NOH)CHO + H2O + HNO3 <s>   ></s> HC(=NOH)COOH + HNO2 + H2O
4. HC(=NOH)COOH + H2O + HNO2 <s>   ></s> HON=C + HCOOH + H2O + HNO2
5. HON=C + HCOOH + H2O + HNO2 <s>   ></s> HON=C + HCOOH + H2O + 0.5H2O + 0.25NO + 0.25NO2
6. HON=C + HCOOH + 1.5H2O + 0.25NO + 0.25NO2 + 0.5Hg(NO3

2 <s>   ></s> 0.5Hg(ON=C)2 + HNO3 + HCOOH + 1.5H2O + 0.25NO + 0.25NO2
so:
2HNO3 + CH3CH2OH + 0.5Hg(NO3

2 <s>   ></s> 0.5Hg(ON=C)2 + HNO3 + HCOOH + 1.5H2O + 0.25NO + 0.25NO2
summarized reaction for intermediates mentioned in COE:
4HNO3 + 4CH3CH2OH + 2Hg(NO3

2 <s> </s>excess HNO3<s> ></s> 2Hg(ON=C)2 + 4HCOOH + 6H2O + NO + NO2
summarized reaction for intermediates mentioned in COPAE:
8HNO3 + 4CH3CH2OH + 2Hg(NO3

2 <s> </s>excess HNO3<s> ></s> 2Hg(ON=C)2 + 4CO2 + 12H2O + 3NO + 3NO2
if COE is right boilibg a solution of Hg(NO3

2 glymonoxime and H2O2 should yield MF.
(anyway happy regularing

)

Theoretic - 8-1-2004 at 08:02

It looks like COPAE's reaction only differs in that formic acid is oxidized with more nitric acid, forming CO2 and NOx, which is undesirable. So it turns out that two different reaction routes lead to essentially identical outcomes. The formic acid oxidation happens more readily than the oxidation of alcohol, so in a way, COPAE wins!
"(anyway happy regularing

"
Thanks!

BTW, can nitrous acid react directly with alcohol? If so, then:
C2H5OH + 2HNO2 => 2HONC + 3H2O is possible!

KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun) - 9-1-2004 at 13:59

"can nitrous acid react directly with alcohol?"
yup but it makes ethyl nitrite
both ethyl nitrite and ethyl nitrate can form in a MF batch

Theoretic - 10-1-2004 at 03:06

What I mean is that nitrous acid bonds to the intermediates in the process by eliminating an oxygen from itself and two hydrogen atoms from the organic molecule, could it bond to ethanol (and generally alcohols) directly? Apparently it bonds to the methyl group of acetic acid, could that hapen to ethanol? If so, then after the elimination of fulminic acid from the reaction product of ethanol and HNO2, methanol is left, which could react similarly. Thus fulminic acid would be produced full yield based on alcohol (and somewhat on nitrous acid too, since seedy oxidations by HNO3 with undesirable NOx are avoided)!
Or is the carboxylic group of acetic acid required to promote the reaction?Also, would higher temperatures inhibit ethyl nitrite formation?

KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun) - 11-1-2004 at 20:56

"Apparently it bonds to the methyl group of acetic acid"
as showed it bonds to the methyl group of acetALDEHYDE but if acetic acid works ... I read somewhere that methylene group in neighborhood with a carbonyl group reacts with nitrous acid to form the isonitroso compound, thus EtOH can't react the way you explained.
"It looks like COPAE's reaction only differs in that formic acid is oxidized with more nitric acid"
Overall, sounds like that. but remember COPAE doesn't mention any formic acid to form, it passes through disparate intermediates

Theoretic - 12-1-2004 at 07:44

"I read somewhere that methylene group in neighborhood with a carbonyl group reacts with nitrous acid to form the isonitroso compound"
Which means acetic acid or acetone and nitrous acid will produce HONC full yield, no oxidations and all!

[Edited on 12-1-2004 by Theoretic]

acid

ME - 10-4-2004 at 02:49

I'm no chemist , so i dont know if this will work.
KNO3 + H2SO4 = HNO3 + K2SO4
Why not:
MF + HCL = F,acid + MgCl
....Just an idea.

Marvin - 11-4-2004 at 02:28

Unfortunatly fulminic acid is chemically unstable and tends to decompose if you try to make it. Trying to form the acid from a salt and HCl causes it to hydrolyse IIRC.

Nick F - 11-4-2004 at 03:51

It's the same with nitrotetrazoles that I'm playing with at the moment - the salts are quite stable, with mercuric nitrotetrazole being proposed as a replacement for lead azide, but the free acid has been known to detonate spontaneously.

KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun) - 14-4-2004 at 12:57

HCl reacts with fulminic acid forming (mono)chloroformoxime I don't at what conditions though
(Nick F: I'm very interested in you're tetrazol advantures.. I remember the story from the older threads... what about making a thread dedicated to tetrazols generally? or have you already done it on E&W?)

Nick F - 14-4-2004 at 14:04

I've been posting a little bit about it in the "my favourite primary explosive" thread over at the E&W Forum. There's some that I still need to write up (purification of the sodium salt, formation of the silver salt, my attempts at recrystalising the silver salt to give high bulk density...), but I won't be able to do any more experimenting until June. I'm still trying to find out more about 5,5'-azoditetrazole, other than "formed by oxidising aminotetrazole with permanganate in alcohol." The Uni library will help, I hope...
I might write a thread about it all in June, when I get more experimenting done...

The_Davster - 13-7-2005 at 13:46

Well, I attempted to make copper fulminate with seemingly bad results.

Silver fulminate was dissolved in concentrated ammonia and a piece of copper wire was placed into the solution. After 24h of sitting a blue solution resulted with the remaining copper wire and a fine layer of silver powder on the bottom. I tested the silver powder on the bottom to see if contained fulminate by lighting it...it did not explode or crackle. The silver powder was filtered out. To the blue solution was added 56% AcOH till the pH tested neutral. It became a slightly lighter shade of blue. There was a small ammount of blue precipitate on the bottom, but very little. It has not been tested for explosive properties yet. To this suposed solution of copper fulminate a few tests were preformed. First some dilute NaOH was added in the hopes to get a Cu(OH)2 precipitate and a solution of sodium fulminate. Strangly, the solution became purple, and nothing precipitated. Next some silver nitrate was added(to a fresh sample of the 'copper fulminate' in the hopes to get some silver fulminate which would confirm that I did indeed have copper fulminate solution. Immediatly upon adding the AgNO3 a white ppt resulted. It was not explosive. Unlike silver fulminate it also seemed to decompose to silver oxide after around a min indoors under atificial lighting.

So in short...I have no idea what the blue solution is.
Thoughts?

[Edited on 13-7-2005 by rogue chemist]

Copper (I & II) fulminate via Mercury fulminate

Lambda - 13-7-2005 at 15:01

Rogue chemist, have you checked out the "Handbook of Preperative Inorganic Chemistry volume 1-3" by Brauer. I seem to recall that there is a methode of Copper (I & II) fulminate synthesis via Mercury fulminate.

Your purple solution may just be (Cu(NH3)4)++ ,a Copper (II) tetramine complex.

[Edited on 14-7-2005 by Lambda]

The_Davster - 13-7-2005 at 16:02

But there has to be an anion in there as well, unfortunatly not fulminate as the tests indicated, but I am curious as to what it might be when I started with pure dry silver fulminate.

I'll have to check out the referance you mentioned.

[Edited on 14-7-2005 by rogue chemist]

Marvin - 15-7-2005 at 04:14

Sounds to me like you mostly have a mixture of copper and ammonium acetate in solution, possibly containing hydrolysis products of the fulminate.

Acetic acid won't cause the precipitation of copper fulminate, as this is highly soluable in water. Silver and mercury versions arn't.

If you want to try this again just leave water, silver fulminate and copper powder in contact. Driving off the water without decomposing the fulminate might be a little bit more tricky.

The silver test does suggest some contamination of the fulminate used.

The_Davster - 19-7-2005 at 13:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Marvin

If you want to try this again just leave water, silver fulminate and copper powder in contact.

Tried that, just some copper wire with silver fulminate under water, swirled occasionally for a few hours. Well a reaction did take place, there is silver particles around and the silver fulminate in the bottom has turned a brown green. It explodes nicely,but not noticibly different than silver fulminate. Strangly however the solution is still colorless, so perhaps copper fulminate is not as soluble as thought? Or something went wrong.

EDIT: I cannot seem to find my copy of brauer, I know I have it on disc somewhere but I cannot find it, if you were to put it up on rapidshare Lambda I would be very greatful.

[Edited on 21-7-2005 by rogue chemist]

Handbook of Preparative Inorganic Chemistry Volume 1 & 2 by G. Brauer (2nd edition)

Lambda - 20-7-2005 at 19:45

Here you are Rogue chemist, but no Copper fulminate manufacture in "Brauer", except Copper azide and Copper acetylide. The Encyclopedia of Explosives and Related Items by Fedoroff may have the information you are looking for. This encyclopedia gives excelent refferences to articals that go more abundantly into the matter.

Handbook of Preparative Inorganic Chemistry Volume 1 & 2 by G. Brauer (2nd edition) available for downloade.

Posted on 21-7-2005 by Lambda in the thread "Books":
https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2569&...

The_Davster - 26-7-2005 at 11:56

Well, I left the mixture I mentioned in my last post for a few days...there are now bright green particles floating around in a very light green solution with silver dust on the bottom of the beaker. Copper fulminate when wet burns with a bit of a crackle, much less energetic than silver fulminate, but with a pretty green flame.

Now to figure out how to separate silver from copper fulminate...time for some heavy research.

Blasty - 14-7-2010 at 20:54

There's some interesting information about copper fulminates (notice, plural, since there appear to be several of them) in Thomas Thomson's A system of chemistry of inorganic bodies, Volume 2 (see attachment)

I wonder if some of these might have potential use in making snap-like impact firecrackers. Particularly interesting for such a purpose would be the ones which explode with a red flame (fulminate of nickel by double decomposition & white fulminate of zinc) or a green flame (white fulminate of copper.)

Attachment: Pages on fulminates from A system of chemistry of inorganic bodies, Volume 2 -Thomas Thomson.pdf (538kB)
This file has been downloaded 657 times

alcohol - nitric acid - N trioxide - Cu nitrate

The WiZard is In - 15-7-2010 at 10:13

From the similarity of copper to mercury and silver in its relations
toward nitric acid, as recently discussed by Divers in his paper on "
Hydroxylamine," the authors were led to make several trials to
prepare copper fulminate from alcohol, and either copper nitrate
and nitrogen trioxide ; or copper nitrate and nitric acid ; or copper
nitrate, nitric acid, and nitruus acid, but all without success. The
active catalytic oxidising power of cupric salts, which affects the
act';.Mi of nitric acid upon copper (Acworth und Armstrong), and
so readily causes the destruction of hydroxylamine (or isonitrosyl
hydride), is sufficient to explain the failure. In proof of its being
exerted in this case, they state that when nitrogen trioxide is
passed for some time into an alcoholic solution of copper nitrate,
an abundant precipitation of copper oxalate is produced without
any evident activity of the nitrous anhydride which all along
becomes quietly absorbed by the alcohol.

[OCR by Google.com/books]

Chemical news and journal of industrial science, Volume 52
By Sir William Crookes
1885

http://tinyurl.com/25q7r6p

hissingnoise - 15-7-2010 at 10:34

N2O3 should be called dinitrogen trioxide - its correct name, to avoid confusing people starting chemistry. . .

d010060002 - 19-7-2010 at 08:13

I read through the thread, and I know that it's been gone over before, but I just read a method for making copper fulminate from scratch. I don't know if the source is reliable, but it's on googlebooks.com under The Preparatory Manual of Explosives By Jared Ledgard. Just if you guys wanted to look at it, it's page 119.

Blasty - 19-7-2010 at 12:44

Quote: Originally posted by d010060002

I read through the thread, and I know that it's been gone over before, but I just read a method for making copper fulminate from scratch. I don't know if the source is reliable, but it's on googlebooks.com under The Preparatory Manual of Explosives By Jared Ledgard. Just if you guys wanted to look at it, it's page 119.

Read the quote posted by The WiZard is In. Such a method does not work with copper. Copper fulminates have to be prepared from other fulminates. For these methods look at the file I posted in this very thread.

quicksilver - 20-7-2010 at 06:08

Use the search engine. We have discussed Legard's books at length. Some of the past discussions are valuable & will save some grief & wasted effort.
Some of the material IS valid but the citations are terrible and often the patents are wrongly numbered. SOME of the synthesis are just plain bullshit. The copper fulminate lab is a great example. Basically, one needs to work through that book to determine what's usable and what's bullshit. That in itself is a scary agenda.
I have compared edition 2 to edition 3. Legard is obviously aware that he was sloppy; but edition 3 is no prize winner either. It appears to be a book written by an educated man who has a wonderful lab at his disposal and simply was sloppy when it came to writing....OR he had the worst editor on God's Green Earth.

AndersHoveland - 28-7-2013 at 12:30

It could possibly be prepared by direct reaction between copper and another fulminate.

FULMINATING COPPER
Prep. Digest copper (in powder or filings) with fulminate of mercury or of silver, and a little water. It forms soluble green crystals that explode with a green flame.

A Cyclopaedia of Practical Receipts, and Collateral Information in the Arts, Arnold James Cooley, (1856)

[Edited on 28-7-2013 by AndersHoveland]