Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Nuclear fusion has never achieved break-even energy output in fusor (A BIG LIE)

Savior - 12-2-2015 at 08:30

I just can't understand?

First, what means break-even energy output?
In my opinion, it means "to achieve more energy than is put in to initiate or power it".

Second, they talk about some "losses"! What losses???
There's no any losses in fusors. For example, any heat/light/radiation that escapes - it ESCAPES AS HEAT - which is not a loss, but just another form of energy.

If I used a fusor to heat a room, it wouldn't have any loss, correct? Any "losses" would directly heat my room, and any fusion would heat my room for free.

It would be like powering electric heater and paying for it (as usual). And aditionally get free energy from any successful fusion.

Correct?

[Edited on 12-2-2015 by Savior]

Loptr - 12-2-2015 at 08:57

Reference?

Fulmen - 12-2-2015 at 08:58

They aren't trying to build a giant space heater. If you can't produce electrical energy from the heat then it is considered a loss.

Chemosynthesis - 12-2-2015 at 09:03

^This. Just because energy is produced, doesn't mean it is useful. You lose some energy in friction, heat, escaping particles, etc. that is not harnessed in providing work. At least, not work you want. Sometimes work is done where you don't want it, creating wear and tear.

This plays into break even energy, as there are always losses in efficiency somewhere down the line. Whether you pay for it, or the sun, Big Bang, whatever is the question.

Varmint - 12-2-2015 at 09:33

These are nuclear physicists not climate "scientists", so you can trust them.

careysub - 12-2-2015 at 09:55

Quote: Originally posted by Savior  
I just can't understand?

First, what means break-even energy output?
In my opinion, it means "to achieve more energy than is put in to initiate or power it".

Second, they talk about some "losses"! What losses???
There's no any losses in fusors. For example, any heat/light/radiation that escapes - it ESCAPES AS HEAT - which is not a loss, but just another form of energy.

If I used a fusor to heat a room, it wouldn't have any loss, correct? Any "losses" would directly heat my room, and any fusion would heat my room for free.

It would be like powering electric heater and paying for it (as usual). And aditionally get free energy from any successful fusion.

Correct?

[Edited on 12-2-2015 by Savior]


Breakeven means that the device is capable of powering itself, in a sense (but not a practical sense, really doing this via producing electricty requires many times breakeven).

It would be far cheaper (capital cost wise) to simply run the electricity through a resistance unit to heat your room.

If the fusor produced enough fusion to measurably increase the heat output of the unit (given the inherent limitations in making these sorts of measurements) the room would contain lethal levels of radiation.

neptunium - 12-2-2015 at 18:13

i dont know if you ever played with a fusor but it does get pretty warm pretty quickly !
But thats hardly the point as said before.
if you are looking at the whole system from a thermodynamic stand point then of course nothing has been lost !
but the purpose of these device is either neutron generation or ,was, to generate cheap reliable safe electrical energy from thermonuclear fusion, and it just does not measure up to that .

Savior - 12-2-2015 at 20:36

But they will anyway use heat to generate electricity, just like in todays fission and coal power plants! And all radiations (neutrons, x-ray, uv, gamma, bremsstrahlung, light) will convert to heat. Additionally neutrons can be used for making gold or something.

Looks like I need to test it. Make fusor, put it underwater and use same quantity of electric energy to boil same amount of water using normal heating, and with fusor...and if more water evaporates with fusor, I am successful. Also if 10 times more water evaporates it means 10 times more energy is produced.

Posting results here if I succeed!

[Edited on 13-2-2015 by Savior]

phlogiston - 13-2-2015 at 01:51

You are correct in principle, and more water will boil than without fusion.
But the amount of energy is extremely minuscule. You will not be able to detect a difference with the amount of steam generated just from the energy you put into the system.

Before you seriously embark on an experimental test of your idea, first calculate the amount of power from the rate of fusion in a typical fusor, and the additional rate of steam you expect from that.

Fulmen - 13-2-2015 at 02:36

Quote: Originally posted by Savior  
But they will anyway use heat to generate electricity

Quite true, but they never operate at anywhere near 100% efficiency. In order for heat to be useful you need high temperatures, for instance it will be hard to utilize the heat produced by the fusor power supply that operates at fairly low temperatures.

careysub - 13-2-2015 at 06:25

Quote: Originally posted by Savior  
...And all radiations (neutrons, x-ray, uv, gamma, bremsstrahlung, light) will convert to heat. Additionally neutrons can be used for making gold or something.


However, unless heavily shielded, a portion of those ionizing radiations will convert to heat in your body, after creating free radicals that will scramble your DNA (even at low levels).
Quote:
Looks like I need to test it. Make fusor, put it underwater and use same quantity of electric energy to boil same amount of water using normal heating, and with fusor...and if more water evaporates with fusor, I am successful. Also if 10 times more water evaporates it means 10 times more energy is produced.

Posting results here if I succeed!


Please post if you succeed in making a fusor at all, with pictures. It is certainly doable.

But you don't show even elementary familiarity with the physics or math involved, so you won't succeed.

You can look up the operating parameters of existing fusors quite easily and determine in the space of a few minutes (if you can do the simple math involved) to tell how much heat they really generate from fusion.

I could do it (if I timed myself it would be less than three minutes surely, mostly spent in finding the material on-line). But I won't.

I am not responding to your posts any more unless you show a level of familiarity with nuclear physics, and the ability and willingness to do basic calculations that I had when I was 13 years old and in 8th grade (I was a smart kid, but still...).

[Edited on 13-2-2015 by careysub]

whiteshadow - 23-4-2015 at 01:33

A fusor is a device that uses an electric field to heat ions to conditions suitable for nuclear fusion. The machine has a voltage between two metal cages inside a vacuum. Positive ions fall down this voltage drop, building up speed. If they collide in the center, they can fuse. This is a type of Inertial electrostatic confinement devicer
And what careysub told might be correct!
please post the pics of it if u succed

neptunium - 23-4-2015 at 04:56

the electrical field does not heat the plasma Whiteshadow.. the central negative (cathode) pole is mostly hollow so the accelerated ion pass though it and on rare occasion collide with other ions coming from all directions . I thought about making one myself back in 2008... but abandoned the idea when I couldn't get any deuterium

[Edited on 23-4-2015 by neptunium]

careysub - 23-4-2015 at 05:20

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
...I thought about making one myself back in 2008... but abandoned the idea when I couldn't get any deuterium

[Edited on 23-4-2015 by neptunium]


You do know that United Nuclear is offering high grade heavy water now, right?

neptunium - 23-4-2015 at 16:47

yeah i know .... just kind of lost interest a little bit you know

IrC - 23-4-2015 at 17:16

I have 120 gm of D2O from UN. My question is where can an individual buy it at lower cost.

j_sum1 - 23-4-2015 at 18:31

If I recall correctly, Argent Scientific http://argentscientific.com/ intends to stock D2O in the near future for Australian users.

ave369 - 30-7-2015 at 11:55

I don't think a fusor heats up faster than a hot water heater consuming the same wattage. Otherwise we would ride trains pulled by fusor-heated chugga-chugga steam locomotives by now.

hissingnoise - 31-7-2015 at 11:27

Quote: Originally posted by Varmint  
These are nuclear physicists not climate "scientists", so you can trust them.

Poor, clueless moron!