Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Moonshiners' 'Thumpers': Myth or Reality?

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blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 15:02

Being a homebrewer (but not a distiller) I've many times come across the concept of the so-called 'thumper', a device used by (mostly illegal) alcohol distillers to alledgedly boost the EtOH content of their distillates.

This site here:

http://homedistiller.org/equip/designs/thumper

... makes a well meaning attempt at illustrating how a thumper is supposed to work its miracle.

The explanation remains in my view complete hogwash and I posit to the plenum that unheated thumpers simply cannot work and are part of moonshiners' mythology.

A device into which the vapours from the primary still are condensed and then reboiled would of course be a different matter and NOT the type of 'thumper' that this thread is about. That set up would merely constitute two distillations in series and would indeed boost EtOH content, if large enough in size.

I won't develop my arguments against an unheated thumper just yet, instead preferring to see what other members have to say about the subject, in particular our resident distiller Zombie.

So, what say you all?

Dr.Bob - 15-2-2015 at 15:29

If the steam from the first distillation heats the second pot, them it becomes a second stage of distillation. We used to have a reflux head that acted somewhat like that for certain distillations.

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 15:36

Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob  
If the steam from the first distillation heats the second pot, them it becomes a second stage of distillation.


You are merely parroting what the linked to site claims.

Not once have I come across a report that objectively compared EtOH yield with or without unheated thumper.

An unheated thumper loses much heat (if it didn't nothing could condense in it).

If this concept worked, doesn't it occur to you it would be exploited in other types of distillations?


[Edited on 15-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Magpie - 15-2-2015 at 15:38

The writer seems like he's speaking from experience. But without reading this too closely it seems like bullshit, ie, it's violating thermodynamics.

I'm presuming the following:

1. The vapor from the still is at saturation, ie, not superheated.
2. The alcohol concentration in the thumper is equal to or less than that of the saturated vapor entering.

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 15:45

Magpie:

And not a measurement in sight!

Have a quick look at the excel spreadsheet he offers: pure, irrelevant BS.

The violation of Thermodynamics is clear: separation of EtOH and water costs energy, yet the thumper (unheated) LOSES energy.

[Edited on 15-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Fulmen - 15-2-2015 at 16:05

It will act like a distillation stage, perhaps not too efficient but that's another matter. Between any liquid and gas en equilibrium will try to form. Lets say the vapor concentration out of the boiler is 50% (roughly 9 wt% EtOH in the mash) and is condensed and kept at it's boiling point, then what? A new equilibrium between the liquid and the gas will be established (75-80 wt% in the gas). There is no heating requirement, in fact there MUST be some heat loss for this to occur. As long as the stage doesn't provide net heat (no liquid phase will form) or a full condensation occurs, some distillation will happen.

Actually:
Forget that, this would best be described as "fractional condensation". Unless the distillate from the thumper is returned to the first stage the net separation is given by the composition of the vapor out of the first stage. The result will be two fractions, one lower than the vapor and one higher.
If the condensate from the thumper is returned to the still a full distillation step will occur, and this will require extra energy.

[Edited on 16-2-15 by Fulmen]

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 16:17

Fulmen:

How do you explain that to increase the EtOH content in the vapour phase leaving the thumper energy MUST be used (as with any separation process it is endothermic), yet no energy is added to the thumper (quite the contrary)?

Have you seen some of these setups? How anyone can believe these would boost EtOH is truly beyond me. It smacks a lot of the old 'HOH' scam, to be honest.

Magpie - 15-2-2015 at 16:25

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  

Have a quick look at the excel spreadsheet he offers:


What spreadsheet?

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 16:26

Start distilling with an empty thumper. Vapour comes over at T, with mole fraction x of EtOH.

Condensate starts forming in the thumper, at mole fraction x of EtOH and the thumper starts heating up slowly until temperature is roughly T.

Any vapour that comes off the thumper then also has mole fraction x of EtOH.

'Nothing to see here', as they say.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 16:29

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
What spreadsheet?


Look at the page I linked to in the opening post: he offers a spreadsheet download about half way down the page: thumper.xls it is called.

subsecret - 15-2-2015 at 16:30

Perhaps if you put a fractionating column on the OUTPUT of the thumper, you'd get a more concentrated vapor. But then you could just put one on the still and forget the thumper altogether. The truth is, that if the alcohol solution in the thumper is less concentrated than the vapor, there will be loss. To achieve the maximum "azeotrope efficiency," one would need to use a massive column, and the still pictured in the linked website shows no such thing.

Fulmen - 15-2-2015 at 16:31

Blogfast: I stand corrected, I didn't read the description close enough.

Luke - 15-2-2015 at 16:42

it works at boosting alcohol content. Source, i've seen it work.

Its really loud though. The one i saw was using metal, maybe wood would be quieter.

Also you dont start with an empty thumper, you usually fill it with some alchol before you start.

Another thing to mention is besides claiming to increase final abv it cleans the spirit up a bit. So even if it didnt boost abv you'd still do it for the better flavour profile.

maybe it works because the heat required to boil the higher abv liquid in the thumper is less than the lower abv steam coming in. Water vapour can carry much more energy than alcohol vapour.




[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Luke]

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 16:46

Quote: Originally posted by Luke  
it works at boosting alcohol content. Source, i've seen it work.




In what way have you "seen it work"? Did anyone compare EtOH content with and without thumper? Have any numbers? Advocates of HOH scams also claim they've seen it work, w/o of course presenting the slightest shred of evidence.

The rest of your comment is unscientific bullcr*p.

Magpie - 15-2-2015 at 16:49



I'm going to have to reset my security setting on my computer before I can look at that spreadsheet.

From another website (kgb):
Quote:

The "second pot" is called a thumper keg because when steam is run through it, it makes a thumping sound. We found one person that described the sound as "POP! POP! Thumpa-thumpa-THUMP! Pop! Pop!" Read more http://www.kgbanswers.com/what-is-a-thump-keg-used-for-on-a-...


Well now, if "steam is run through it" then it is indeed another still. :D

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 16:50

Let me see if I can answer this correctly.

Take a wash containing approx 10% EToH, and split it between two containers. Pot, and thumper. Mass wise about 70% in the pot, and 30% in the thumper. Therefore there is Much more thermal energy in the pot.
The primary (pot) will boil at approx 190*f due to the EToH boiling point of 172.6*f, and the water boiling point of 212*f..
What is coming out of the primary pot is mostly EToH vapor, and very little water vapor. Lets say for arguments sake about 80 / 20 or 160 proof Alcohol.

This is the part that I will mess up the explanation but basically the EToH carries a (+) rating on energy. This means it carries more stored energy than it took to create the vapor. (see attached)
This excess energy in turn is used to heat / vaporize the liquid in the thumper, and the small amount of carried over water from the pot does condense, and remain in the thumper.

The rhumper will exponentially be gaining a higher percentage of EToH from the pot, and a smaller amount will be leaving the thumper over any given period of time. So the increasing EToH to water ratio is actually lowering the boiling point in the thumper, and the excess energy contained in the pots EToH vapor has less, and less work to do to vaporize what is in the thumper.
The process becomes MORE efficient as the run continues, and you actually have to reduce the input power to the boiler or the run will speed up stripping more water vapor out of the thumper.

Distillers want to avoid this due to ester compounds, and organic oils that will be vaporized, and carried over to the finished product.
I hope I explained this well enough to allow you to research the exact process or mechanism that allows it to work ie: EToH excess energy.

At least this is what I heard... I stay far away from crime things.:cool:

(note)
Abstract
The vapor pressures of (ethanol + glycerol) and (water + glycerol) binary mixtures were measured by means of two static devices at temperatures between (273 and 353 (or 363)) K. The data were correlated with the Antoine equation. From these data, excess Gibbs free energy functions (GE) were calculated for several constant temperatures and fitted to a fourth-order Redlich–Kister equation using the Barker method. The (ethanol + glycerol) binary system exhibits positive deviations in GE where for the (water + glycerol) mixture, the GE is negative for all temperatures investigated over the whole composition. Additionally, the NRTL, UNIQUAC and Modified UNIFAC (Do) models have been used for the correlation or prediction of the total pressure.

I had to edit to add that this effect can be "daisy chained" until the thermal losses to the environment overcome the (+) energy contained in the EToH vapor.
Some "shinners" will run up to three insulated thumpers, and reach azeotrope on the finished product.


[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 16:51

Quote: Originally posted by Awesomeness  
To achieve the maximum "azeotrope efficiency," one would need to use a massive column, and the still pictured in the linked website shows no such thing.


That's not what we're discussing here.

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 16:57

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
This is the part that I will mess up the explanation but basically the EToH carries a (+) rating on energy. This means it carries more stored energy than it took to create the vapor. (see attached)
This excess energy in turn is used to heat / vaporize the liquid in the thumper, and the small amount of carried over water from the pot does condense, and remain in the thumper.



Complete and unadulterated NONSENSE. It carries precisely the amount of energy you put into it: Principle of Conservation of Energy.

Next we'll be talking perpetual motion machines! :D

Still, Zomb, thanks for making my point for me! ;)


[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 16:59

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  


I'm going to have to reset my security setting on my computer before I can look at that spreadsheet.



I downloaded it and it was kosher.

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 17:12

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  


I'm going to have to reset my security setting on my computer before I can look at that spreadsheet.

From another website (kgb):

Quote:

The "second pot" is called a thumper keg because when steam is run through it, it makes a thumping sound. We found one person that described the sound as "POP! POP! Thumpa-thumpa-THUMP! Pop! Pop!" Read more http://www.kgbanswers.com/what-is-a-thump-keg-used-for-on-a-...


Well now, if "steam is run through it" then it is indeed another still. :D



Both statements here are correct. Thumpers got their name due to the vapor coming into them below the level of the liquid contained inside. The resulting bubbling inside a wooden barrel has the effect of a hammering sound. It starts off pretty intense but as the temps equalize it is lees pronounced.

The thumper is indeed a secondary distillation process just as I explained in my above post.

The statement on a"Massive column" being needed for azeotrope is no longer applicable. Modern distillers are running 4 foot tall x 4 inch round, plated columns using either sieve plates or bubble caps to create hundreds or thousands of sources for vapor / liquid interaction. This is combined with Reflux inducing condensers on the top of the column to make the process almost infinite, and fractional stabilization can be reach, and maintained in very short amounts of time..

I have designed a 6 inch x 3 foot outer column, containing a 3 inch by 5 foot inner column (concentric) that combines the idea, and function of a thumper with the efficiency of a plated column.
Every drop of EToH produced is azeotrope

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

2014071516210389011.jpg - 290kBdestill_300.jpg - 69kBTrays, and Wiers.jpg - 144kB

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 17:17

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
The thumper is indeed a secondary distillation process just as I explained in my above post.



You haven't explained a goddamn thing. Instead you've violated the principle of energy conservation! :mad:

A false premise can never lead to a correct conclusion.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Magpie - 15-2-2015 at 17:21

I'm taking that statement about steam as being an outside source of steam, not the vapor from the still.

Does a thumper have a steam coil or is it just a pot?

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Magpie]

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 17:24

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
This is the part that I will mess up the explanation but basically the EToH carries a (+) rating on energy. This means it carries more stored energy than it took to create the vapor. (see attached)
This excess energy in turn is used to heat / vaporize the liquid in the thumper, and the small amount of carried over water from the pot does condense, and remain in the thumper.



Complete and unadulterated NONSENSE. It carries precisely the amount of energy you put into it: Principle of Conservation of Energy.

Next we'll be talking perpetual motion machines! :D

Still, Zomb, thanks for making my point for me! ;)


[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]


I told you I would not explain it correctly.
Let's try again.

The vapor carried is enough to induce boiling in the thumper. The concentration of EToH increases faster than the the amount of water introduced, therefore the boiling point in the thumper is reducing while the boiling point in the boiler is increasing.
This in turn creates the effect of carrying more energy than is required into the thumper.
Thus what Bert stated about introducing heat to the thumper is negated due to the excess energy introduced as the run progresses.
It can / will cause a runaway reaction where unwanted compounds begin to carry out of the thumper.
Maybe this is a better way to explain it.


[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 17:28

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Maybe this is a better way to explain it.




No, it isn't: it's the same nonsense re-hashed, 'complexified' w/o any elucidation.

Where in that beautiful design on the right is the thumper?

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 17:30

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I'm taking that statement about steam as being an outside source of steam, not the vapor from the still.

Does a thumper have a steam coil or is it just a pot?

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Magpie]


It's just a pot. The steam is the water vapor carried over from the boiler into the thumper.

at the begining or "Boil up" it is a 50 / 50 proposition, and the pot has to be brought to a hard boil. As the EToH in the thumper increases the boiler power is MORE than enough to continue the process, and eventually must be reduced.

Old school hillbillies figured this out on a second grade education.:)

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 17:35

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Old school hillbillies figured this out on a second grade education.:)


No, they haven't because they never tested anything rigorously.

People also 'use' amulets to 'achieve' things.

And now you're talking HEATED thumpers anyway. A different subject ALTOGETHER.

Where's the thumper in your right hand design?

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 17:39

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Maybe this is a better way to explain it.




No, it isn't: it's the same nonsense re-hashed, 'complexified' w/o any elucidation.

Where in that beautiful design on the right is the thumper?

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]


None of those designs contain a thumper. The images are to clarify the statement about "massive columns".

The best way for me to allow you to understand this would be for me to suggest you set up a simple distillation rig, using another vessel as a thumper, and then a product condenser from there.

When you monitor temps in both vessels, and see the change in all aspects from power input required to switching mole fraction in each container to final power input required to maintain a Constant rate of product collection, perhaps you could explain all of this correctly.
I am much more of a mechanic, than a chemist so the ling is still lost on me. BUT the process is not.

I'm not being a smart ass, I hope you understand. Having you perform the process, and explain the mechanism would benefit everyone. The experiment can be carried out with a can of beer.

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 17:41

Quote: Originally posted by Luke  
it works at boosting alcohol content. Source, i've seen it work.

Its really loud though. The one i saw was using metal, maybe wood would be quieter.

Also you dont start with an empty thumper, you usually fill it with some alchol before you start.

Another thing to mention is besides claiming to increase final abv it cleans the spirit up a bit. So even if it didnt boost abv you'd still do it for the better flavour profile.

maybe it works because the heat required to boil the higher abv liquid in the thumper is less than the lower abv steam coming in. Water vapour can carry much more energy than alcohol vapour.




[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Luke]



YES! Ehat is exactly how / why it works.:D

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 17:44

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
The experiment can be carried out with a can of beer.


Even that is largely baloney. To be certain of any conclusions any comparison (thumper/no thumper) would need to be done rigorously and with accurate EtOH determinations. Not 'proof', not 'bubbles', not 'dammit, it puts hairs on your chest!' but rigorous chemical determination of ABV.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 17:45

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Old school hillbillies figured this out on a second grade education.:)


No, they haven't because they never tested anything rigorously.

People also 'use' amulets to 'achieve' things.

And now you're talking HEATED thumpers anyway. A different subject ALTOGETHER.

Where's the thumper in your right hand design?

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]



No, they haven't because they never tested anything rigorously.

I'm pretty sure they tested their results. Maybe not on a fancy Gas mass spectrometer, but yeah... They knew how to proof hootch.:)

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 17:49

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Maybe not on a fancy Gas mass spectrometer, but yeah... They knew how to proof hootch.:)



Even refractive index would be accurate enough. 'Proofing hooch' means nothing. Nothing to modern distillers either, BTW.

Yours is a belief system, not science.

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 17:51

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
The experiment can be carried out with a can of beer.


Even that is largely baloney. To be certain of any conclusions any comparison (thumper/no thumper) would need to be done rigorously and with accurate EtOH determinations. Not 'proof', not 'bubbles', not 'dammit, it puts hairs on your chest!' but rigorous chemical determination of ABV.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]



This is why I suggest You carry out the experiment or perhaps Any other member of the forum.
I do not have the equipment set up yet to do this in the manner needed to document the process or results.
I Have been around stillin' long enough to tell you that thumpers DO increase ABV, and for the very reasons I seem to fail to be able to explain.

I'm sure there is a scientific article somewhere that deals with this, and I will see what I can do about finding one or more..

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 17:58

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  

I'm sure there is a scientific article somewhere that deals with this, and I will see what I can do about finding one or more..


You won't find it. If the principle (of energy generation ex nihilo! :D) worked, petroleum distillers would have refineries FULL of thumpers, in the same way that if the 'HOH' scam worked every carmaker would be using it in their engines.

Lady Thermodynamics is not for turning.


[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 18:07

http://homedistiller.org/equip/designs/thumper

http://homedistiller.org/equip/jesse

Not scientific but perhaps more information. The first link contains a link to a spread sheet that shows the math on how this works.
I hope it helps. :)

I have to go put my head in the oven now. Thanks Bert!:D

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

blogfast25 - 15-2-2015 at 18:13

The first page I linked to on my opening post.

The second one is another one who buys into the myth, from that same site.

Want more of these? I have tens of them!

Hint: truth is not arrived at by majority or by consensus. It is what it is and stands alone, independent of the beholder.

Bert? 'Splain?


[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 18:27

Bert started the thread! :mad:

Seriously. I would love to perform this as an experiment, as in practice I know it works. (I knew a guy that knew a guy).

There are thousands of thumpers running in the US alone, and every one of them is there for a reason. Increased ABV of the final product.

Did you check that link in the first site? The numbers prove the concept,. Understood I can post up numbers as well. They mean nothing without verification.

It should be around a month before I have a lab complete enough to run this myself, and Hopefully by that time I will have learned enough to present the idea concisely enough to qualify as valid.

Perhaps if you wouldn't mind my asking for your assistance in the parameters, and methods required to make this a viable experiment, I think it would make a fine first step for me.

LOL I just looked back, and saw it was you that started the thread... Entrapment!!! :D
I should have known it was a duck call I heard.


[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

Chemosynthesis - 15-2-2015 at 18:40

Those are very impressive still pictures. Someone here mentioned that the thumpers are insulated. Is this common/mandatory? The reason I ask is that I am curious about temperatures in the still, and the vapor, versus the temperature of the thumper. This would help correlate heat energies.

Magpie - 15-2-2015 at 19:06

This a fairly simple situation and we should be able to figure it out without doing an experiment, although that would be the ultimate proof.

Thought experiment:

There is no heat transfer into or out of this apparatus:

A pot still is producing a vapor that is 50% alcohol. This vapor is being sparged into the bottom of an open beaker containing liquid 50% alcohol at the same temperature as the vapor. Vapor will come off the liquid surface of the beaker.

Is this an accurate representation of a thumper in operation? If so, is the vapor coming off the surface of the liquid going to be richer in alcohol than 50%?

If so, then it is acting like another stage, as Dr Bob has stated.

subsecret - 15-2-2015 at 19:12

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Awesomeness  
To achieve the maximum "azeotrope efficiency," one would need to use a massive column, and the still pictured in the linked website shows no such thing.


That's not what we're discussing here.


How is it detrimental to the discussion? Do you have a problem with the entire post or just that sentence?

-

As I see it, the thumper is like a liquid fractionating column, the problem being that there's no return to the pot.. As long as the temperature is kept just above the BP of alcohol, it could work to increase efficiency. As the thumper fills and becomes more diluted, efficiency would decrease.

@ Chemosynthesis: I'd think that the thumper should be insulated only if it's below he BP of alcohol.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Awesomeness]

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 19:14

In the case of wooden thumpers no insulation is needed for obvious reasons.

Every distiller I have spoken with all around the world will agree that insulating a metal thumper is best for thermal efficiency, as well as insulating the entire system from boiler to connecting plumbing.

The kicker comes in... Most distillers are so proud of their stills, and craftsmanship, that covering them up is almost a sin.

Reality of it is YES a still will run more efficiently if insulated but they run just fine while exposed to the atmosphere.

There are really only three schools, and two classes of distillers (excluding fuel producers)
Commercial distilleries. They are just as proud of their gear so no insulation
Hobby distillers / moonshiners. Too proud to cover up.
Technical craft distillers. Some insulate but most don't.

It could be likened to a chemist spray painting all his apparatus flat black.

1/2 the enjoyment is looking at your beat up, pogged together handy work.:D

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

Oscilllator - 15-2-2015 at 20:59

blogfast25 it seems to me that your argument that bumpers violate the second law of thermodynamics is based on the assumption that the flow rate into the bumper is equal to the flow rate out of the bumper. If this assumption was correct then yes of course the bumper wouldn't work.

However if the flow rate out of the bumper was significantly less than the flow rate in, then the energy required to provide additional separation could be obtained from the portion of the vapour that condenses and does not leave the bumper. This avoids violating the laws of thermodynamics and can even account for heat loss to the environment.

Personally, I think what happens is this:
The hot vapour leaves the still at a concentration of 50% (for example). This vapour travels into the bumper where it condenses, heating the water.
Once enough of the vapour has condensed, the temperature in the bumper will be raised to the extent that it is above the boiling point of ethanol. When this happens, water will still condense in the bumper, however the the ethanol will not. This means that the ethanol concentration in the vapour phase has been increased to above 50%, and the energy for this separation has been provided by the condensation of water vapour in the bumper.
Note that if the bumper were to be completely insulated then the temperature of the liquid in the bumper would increase until it was equal to the vapour temperature, at which point the ethanol vapour would no longer increase in concentration. So we can see here that heat loss to the environment is actually essential for this process to work.


I hope this helps explain the process and serves as a lesson in not being to hasty in dismissing a process just because rednecks do it, and it initially seems like it shouldn't work ;)

Magpie - 15-2-2015 at 21:32

Based on the equilibrium diagram for the ethanol-water system:

If the liquid in the thumper is at 50 wt% ethanol and the incoming submerged vapor from the still is at the same concentration, the equilibrium vapor in the thumper will be at 76 wt% ethanol.

So I'm going to have to reverse myself and eat some crow.

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 21:38

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
This a fairly simple situation and we should be able to figure it out without doing an experiment, although that would be the ultimate proof.

Thought experiment:

There is no heat transfer into or out of this apparatus:

A pot still is producing a vapor that is 50% alcohol. This vapor is being sparged into the bottom of an open beaker containing liquid 50% alcohol at the same temperature as the vapor. Vapor will come off the liquid surface of the beaker.

Is this an accurate representation of a thumper in operation? If so, is the vapor coming off the surface of the liquid going to be richer in alcohol than 50%?

If so, then it is acting like another stage, as Dr Bob has stated.



Close...

The mixture in the boiler is approx. 10% alcohol
The begining of the run or heat up will produce approx 60% alcohol/ 40% water vapor due to the different volitilities.
The vapor is inject to the bottom of the flask/thump, and that flask contains the SAME 10% mixture as the first (boiler).

The first moments of the process will begin filling the flask, and emptying the boiler. As the alcohol becomes more concentrated in the flask the boiling point is lowering thus creating an environment where LESS energy is required to form a new round of vaporization.

While this is happening the temperature in the boiler is rising due to the boiling point increasing, and the input power remaining the same.

As the process continues it creates a progressive action / reaction. Eventually the spent liquid in the boiler will be 1 - 3 ABV, and be boiling near 212*f, and the flask will be at or near 160 ABV with a boiling point near 185*f

It is easy to understand once you sample the results.:D

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 21:44



Quote:Oscillator

blogfast25 it seems to me that your argument that bumpers violate the second law of thermodynamics is based on the assumption that the flow rate into the bumper is equal to the flow rate out of the bumper. If this assumption was correct then yes of course the bumper wouldn't work.

However if the flow rate out of the bumper was significantly less than the flow rate in, then the energy required to provide additional separation could be obtained from the portion of the vapour that condenses and does not leave the bumper. This avoids violating the laws of thermodynamics and can even account for heat loss to the environment."


This is exactly right.
You are extracting approx. 40% water from the boiler, and 60% alch.
The thumper is passing approx 20% water, and 80% alch.

The boiling point in the thumper is lower that when it began.

Edit:
"I hope this helps explain the process and serves as a lesson in not being to hasty in dismissing a process just because rednecks do it, and it initially seems like it shouldn't work ;)"

I love you!:D

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

Luke - 15-2-2015 at 22:25

does anyone know how to post a pic? I thought it might help explain it a little.

Magpie - 15-2-2015 at 22:47

I know that making moonshine is a batch process so concentrations must be changing both in the pot and in the thumper as the batch proceeds.

But if the thumper operates as in my last post then it's alcohol content has to be steadily decreasing. This concentration should decrease until the outgoing vapor in equilibrium with it matches that of the incoming vapor from the pot. At this point a steady state would be reached and no alcohol concentration increase across the thumper would exist. But the pot is steadily decreasing in alcohol concentration also so maybe a steady state is never really reached. It seems that this would depend on batch size, thumper size, etc.

Chemosynthesis - 15-2-2015 at 22:55

[img]hotlinkable_url_here[/img] note that I had to turn my BBCode off in the right hand options of my post, for you to see my pseudo code.

It does sound to me as though this is a second stage distillation that thermally equilibrates while the abv. increases with condensation. I was trying to envision this similar to how Magpie had thought it up as well.

Luke - 15-2-2015 at 23:35

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I know that making moonshine is a batch process so concentrations must be changing both in the pot and in the thumper as the batch proceeds.

But if the thumper operates as in my last post then it's alcohol content has to be steadily decreasing. This concentration should decrease until the outgoing vapor in equilibrium with it matches that of the incoming vapor from the pot. At this point a steady state would be reached and no alcohol concentration increase across the thumper would exist. But the pot is steadily decreasing in alcohol concentration also so maybe a steady state is never really reached. It seems that this would depend on batch size, thumper size, etc.


This is exactly right, alcohol content decreases as the batch goes on. This is a good thing in pot distillation though as different compounds come over at different times.

The still operator will take small samples throughout the run and then decide which ones to put into the final spirit. Usually the first quarter or third of the run is discarded, and the last third is discarded.

The stuff in the middle of the run is called the hearts and is diluted to 65% abv and then aged on oak.

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 00:25

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I know that making moonshine is a batch process so concentrations must be changing both in the pot and in the thumper as the batch proceeds.

But if the thumper operates as in my last post then it's alcohol content has to be steadily decreasing. This concentration should decrease until the outgoing vapor in equilibrium with it matches that of the incoming vapor from the pot. At this point a steady state would be reached and no alcohol concentration increase across the thumper would exist. But the pot is steadily decreasing in alcohol concentration also so maybe a steady state is never really reached. It seems that this would depend on batch size, thumper size, etc.


As I understand what you are saying is mostly correct.

The point that makes it work is the alcohol is evaporating into the thumper where the heated or vapor state alcohol is is hotter than the liquid state. As this hot vapor passes thru the liquid alcohol it attracts more alhc., and the vapor becomes more concentrated. The water in the thumper is hot enough to create this situation.
The liquid alch. is looking for a way out, and the vapor bubble allows this to happen.

I really can't explain it any better. It's based on percentages or mole fractions, density, and heat required to separate the two changing mixtures.
It works on a curve, and not linear.

The more alcohol that enters the thumper the lower the boiling point is.
The more alch. that exits the boiler the higher the temp gets

It is in essence a self feeding machine until the Alch is gone, and then the temps. equalize, and the process goes back to exactly what BlogFast states. Impossible.

Mole fractions, and heat required to process.


thumper.jpg - 13kBVapor-Liquid_Equilibrium_Mixture_of_Ethanol_and_Water.png - 15kB

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 00:29

Quote: Originally posted by Luke  
Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I know that making moonshine is a batch process so concentrations must be changing both in the pot and in the thumper as the batch proceeds.

But if the thumper operates as in my last post then it's alcohol content has to be steadily decreasing. This concentration should decrease until the outgoing vapor in equilibrium with it matches that of the incoming vapor from the pot. At this point a steady state would be reached and no alcohol concentration increase across the thumper would exist. But the pot is steadily decreasing in alcohol concentration also so maybe a steady state is never really reached. It seems that this would depend on batch size, thumper size, etc.


This is exactly right, alcohol content decreases as the batch goes on. This is a good thing in pot distillation though as different compounds come over at different times.

The still operator will take small samples throughout the run and then decide which ones to put into the final spirit. Usually the first quarter or third of the run is discarded, and the last third is discarded.

The stuff in the middle of the run is called the hearts and is diluted to 65% abv and then aged on oak.



We HAVE to hang out Luke. But you have to toss out less hootch...:D

Luke - 16-2-2015 at 00:35

Who said anything about tossing stuff out? Goes back into the reflux still to make vodka :)
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Quote: Originally posted by Luke  
Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I know that making moonshine is a batch process so concentrations must be changing both in the pot and in the thumper as the batch proceeds.

But if the thumper operates as in my last post then it's alcohol content has to be steadily decreasing. This concentration should decrease until the outgoing vapor in equilibrium with it matches that of the incoming vapor from the pot. At this point a steady state would be reached and no alcohol concentration increase across the thumper would exist. But the pot is steadily decreasing in alcohol concentration also so maybe a steady state is never really reached. It seems that this would depend on batch size, thumper size, etc.


This is exactly right, alcohol content decreases as the batch goes on. This is a good thing in pot distillation though as different compounds come over at different times.

The still operator will take small samples throughout the run and then decide which ones to put into the final spirit. Usually the first quarter or third of the run is discarded, and the last third is discarded.

The stuff in the middle of the run is called the hearts and is diluted to 65% abv and then aged on oak.



We HAVE to hang out Luke. But you have to toss out less hootch...:D

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 00:51

Quote: Originally posted by Luke  
Who said anything about tossing stuff out? Goes back into the reflux still to make vodka :)


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Quote: Originally posted by Luke  
Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I know that making moonshine is a batch process so concentrations must be changing both in the pot and in the thumper as the batch proceeds.

But if the thumper operates as in my last post then it's alcohol content has to be steadily decreasing. This concentration should decrease until the outgoing vapor in equilibrium with it matches that of the incoming vapor from the pot. At this point a steady state would be reached and no alcohol concentration increase across the thumper would exist. But the pot is steadily decreasing in alcohol concentration also so maybe a steady state is never really reached. It seems that this would depend on batch size, thumper size, etc.


This is exactly right, alcohol content decreases as the batch goes on. This is a good thing in pot distillation though as different compounds come over at different times.

The still operator will take small samples throughout the run and then decide which ones to put into the final spirit. Usually the first quarter or third of the run is discarded, and the last third is discarded.

The stuff in the middle of the run is called the hearts and is diluted to 65% abv and then aged on oak.



We HAVE to hang out Luke. But you have to toss out less hootch...:D


You're my new BFF!

Fulmen - 16-2-2015 at 01:27

Blogfast is right, the claims as I understand them violate physics. What comes out of the first stage is appr. 50/50 EtOH/Water (assuming a constant 10% in the boiler), we can all agree on this right? Well, if nothing is returned back into the still, the total product will be 50/50 no matter what you do. An unheated thumper can split this into two products by partial (or fractionate) condensing, in theory you could get a final product of ~75% but only by producing a corresponding amount of 25% in the thumper. And if you were to mix these together afterwards you will end up with the same 50% that came out of the still. There is no way around this as the total product must be the same as the vapor composition leaving the still.

Now if the distillate from the thumper is returned to the boiler you have a full second stage capable of producing a net product above 50%. But in order to reboil the condensed liquid you will have to add more energy, so the claim of producing a net purer product without any extra energy is false.

[Edited on 16-2-15 by Fulmen]

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 02:58

The first statement is incorrect. re: 50 /50.

The vapor coming from the boiler is going to be more EToH vapor due to it's higher volatility. 60% ABV.

There is math to figure it but from real world experience a 10% ABV mash / wash will always deliver at least 120 proof or 60% ABV. This is true in all cases due to the Alch evaporating at a lower temp than the water.

The mixture of 10% will boil at approx 189 -190*f. At this temp the water itself can not evaporate so what little does is actually a phase product in the aclh vapor.

you all have to get the 50 / 50 notion out of your thinking. There is only one time this will ever happen in distilling, and that is when the final condensate is bottled. It never happens inside a boiler or thumper.

This chart might ring the bells for one of you. You'll see as the vapor transfers so do the boiling points. As they transfer so does thr required power. Thus the magic thump is created. (albeit a short life span)

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

Untitled.jpg - 290kB

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

Fulmen - 16-2-2015 at 03:33

Never mind the specific numbers, they aren't important in this context. Lets just say the mash (at whatever conc) produces 50% EtOH vapor at a certain point, resulting in 50% alcohol when run straight into a condenser. With me so far? No matter what you do after the vapor leaves the boiler the total amount of water and alcohol cannot change. So if vapor leaving the boiler is 50% EtOH, you WILL get equal amounts of alcohol and water. Now it is possible to split this into two products, one being stronger than 50% and one being weaker, but you cannot change the total amounts (unless blowing vapor to the atmosphere, in which case you loose more alcohol than water).

By returning the distillate from the thumper into the still (turning it into a second stage) you can change this, but this will cost more energy.

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 04:03

Ok correct...
But that 50% now went into the thumper. By the time you reach a 50/50 ratio the boiler is almost out of alch,
., and the thumper is alch rich. The boiler is now near 200 - 205*f, and the thumper only requires approx 185*f to release it's load.
In the beginning they were equal, and required equal power. This is exactly where the magic "free" power is born.

Fulmen - 16-2-2015 at 04:10

You're missing a quite basic point here. Whatever leaves the boiler leaves. If nothing is returned then your total amount of condensed water and alcohol will be the same as with a single stage.

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 04:11

I separated this on purpose.

Every time Alch vapor passes thru heated mash /wash, it collects more alch vapor in the form of micro bubbles about to vaporize.
This is where the rise in ABV occurs in the thump. It is now approx 18% ABV (boiler 2%). This really third round of vaporization (one in the boiler) (one in the pass under the thumper liquid) (third is the thump output) collects a higher % of alch in the vapor, and leaves more water behind.
Fractional Plate distillation proves this out.

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 04:15

You have to re read this. I can't explain it any differently.

Maybe this. Run a single stage distillation, and run till all the alch has transfered. The result will be around 50-60 abv.
Do this again, and the result will be around 70 80 abv, and so on.

The thumper IS the again, and the heat is provided from the incoming vapor due to shifting boiling points.

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 04:22

Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator  

Personally, I think what happens is this:
The hot vapour leaves the still at a concentration of 50% (for example). This vapour travels into the bumper where it condenses, heating the water.
Once enough of the vapour has condensed, the temperature in the bumper will be raised to the extent that it is above the boiling point of ethanol. When this happens, water will still condense in the bumper, however the the ethanol will not. This means that the ethanol concentration in the vapour phase has been increased to above 50%, and the energy for this separation has been provided by the condensation of water vapour in the bumper.


Nope. You're telling yourself tales and falling for them.

An uninsulated box like a thumper BY DEFINITION runs colder than the condensate that forms in it.

Even raising the temperature again by means of incoming vapour means by the Laws of Thermodynamics the consensate's temperature can only reach that of the incoming vapour, as heat can only flow from hot to cold.

As a result the equilibrium composition leaving the thumper is the same as that entering the thumper, at best.

No amount of mumbo jumbo is going to change that.

I'm surprised people have such trouble seeing such elementary things.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 04:26

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
You're missing a quite basic point here. Whatever leaves the boiler leaves. If nothing is returned then your total amount of condensed water and alcohol will be the same as with a single stage.


Fulmen points to Conservation of Mass, correctly.

Where did all the water go, boys? :D

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 04:29

Please Blog. Try the experiment. It will prove you wrong.
Your theories are correct but in practical application it works.

I didn't take a nap so I'm burnt on this one. but do the experiment, and tell us how it goes. It might take you an hour or two at the most.

Brain chemistry will not prove this one out.

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 04:35

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Fractional Plate distillation proves this out.


Fractional distillation works and we know why, pal.

Thumpers are nonsense and we know why too.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 05:01



download.jpg - 5kB

subsecret - 16-2-2015 at 05:10

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
Blogfast is right, the claims as I understand them violate physics. What comes out of the first stage is appr. 50/50 EtOH/Water (assuming a constant 10% in the boiler), we can all agree on this right? Well, if nothing is returned back into the still, the total product will be 50/50 no matter what you do. An unheated thumper can split this into two products by partial (or fractionate) condensing, in theory you could get a final product of ~75% but only by producing a corresponding amount of 25% in the thumper. And if you were to mix these together afterwards you will end up with the same 50% that came out of the still. There is no way around this as the total product must be the same as the vapor composition leaving the still.

[Edited on 16-2-15 by Fulmen]


Yes... The efficiency of the thumper depends on how long it's operated before being drained of dilute alcohol. Of course, the water never goes anywhere, and it's only a matter of time before the concentration of alcohol in the thumper decreases past where it's useful to produce concentrated alcohol. As long as the temperature of the thumper is kept below the temperature of the pot but just above the BP of alcohol, there would be some increase in efficiency toward the beginning of the run. This is assuming that the inefficiency comes from the fact that the still is a good bit hotter than the BP of alcohol, so more water is carried over. The thumper's concentration would begin to decrease immediately, and you'd have no improvement in separation. If the still is hotter than it needs to be, the thumper is just a fractionating column.

From a practical standpoint, draining the thumper would lead to a lot of loss; it could be recovered.

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 05:12

As regards testing a thumper, in principle that is not necessary. It would be like having to prove you can't (by chemical means) make gold from lead: First Principles show that, so no specific experiment is needed or useful.

Having said that I'm talking to someone on the forum who MIGHT want to run such an experiment (NO guarantees that he'll accept, though).

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 05:15

Awesomeness,
Your on the right track. BUT MOST of the water is left in the boiler because you are always below the boiling point of the water.

Only a small percentage is carried to the thumper as a phase product in the alcohol..

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 05:18

Quote: Originally posted by Awesomeness  
If the still is hotter than it needs to be, the thumper is just a fractionating column.


Sigh.

The still CANNOT be hotter 'than it needs to be': the BP of an EtOH/water mixture at atmospheric pressure depends ONLY on mol fraction (ABV if you prefer) EtOH.

The thumper a 'fractionating column'??? Do you know what a fractionating column actually is? :D

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 05:20

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
As regards testing a thumper, in principle that is not necessary. It would be like having to prove you can't (by chemical means) make gold from lead: First Principles show that, so no specific experiment is needed or useful.

Having said that I'm talking to someone on the forum who MIGHT want to run such an experiment (NO guarantees that he'll accept, though).


That will be a blessing.

A constant output rate from the thumper must be maintained throughout the run. Just as in actual conditions.
No matter the scale, nothing more than a broken stream of product.
This rate maintains the equilibrium, just as a fractional column must not be flooded.

hqdefault.jpg - 12kB

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 05:21

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Only a small percentage is carried to the thumper as a phase product in the alcohol..



More obfuscating mumbo jumbo: what is a 'phase product'?

I'll give you this: you'd make a good thumper salesman, blinding people with pseudo-science! :D

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 05:24

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
That will be a blessing.

A constant output rate from the thumper must be maintained throughout the run. Just as in actual conditions.


G-d, your reading difficulties are terrible: WOULD, not will.

I thought it only took a beer can! :D

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 05:25

Meaning a product other than pure water molecules. A combined ethanol/water molecule.

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 05:44

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Meaning a product other than pure water molecules. A combined ethanol/water molecule.


HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAAH!

Please don't make me piss myself! :D

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 05:48

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
A constant output rate from the thumper must be maintained throughout the run. Just as in actual conditions.


Any special pixie dust I need to get? Do you have a secret formula? :D

Luke - 16-2-2015 at 05:51

I think you should try this blogfast. Then you can work out why it works. You seem to understand physics and it would be interesting for me to get that take on it.

Its going to take you you very little to set it up and if it doesnt work, you'll be able to tell everyone how wrong they are (which you seem to enjoy doing).
Btw, blogfast you kind of come off like a know it all wanker, you should probably work on that.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Luke]

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 06:00

Yeah, I said that wrong... the two are combined (not on a molecular level) into one new uniform product. Neither ethanol or water. Yet the two can still be separated via distillation.

Again I DON'T know the jargon, but I know the mechanics.


For the beer can... I think you could do this on a miniature scale.
70% in the boiler, and 30% in the thumper,

One test or control run with NO thumper, and measure the ABV of the product.

New can o beer, and add the thumper. measure the abv.

The two important aspects are keeping the boiler input tube below the thumpers liquid level, and maintaining a broken stream from the output in both experiments. '

Too fast, and it's a blow out or flooded column situation. Too slow ie: drops per second is fine.
I appreciate your taking an interest.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 06:00

Dammit, I've just figured out how it works. My bad!

The EtOH get excited by quantum vibrations in the copper particulates. These quartz like resonance vortices add astral energy to the EtOH/H2O moleculates.

When these supercharged EtoH phase products hit the thumper the anti-noise is generated, causing them to quantum oscillate and leave the thumper more so than the protonium oxide strings.

Don't waste any accurate measuments on this, just get p*ssed as farts on the product and you'll see that it works!

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 06:04

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
A constant output rate from the thumper must be maintained throughout the run. Just as in actual conditions.


Any special pixie dust I need to get? Do you have a secret formula? :D



You need to be on Crack for this to work right.
Otherwise it just sucks.;)

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 06:06

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Dammit, I've just figured out how it works. My bad!

The EtOH get excited by quantum vibrations in the copper particulates. These quartz like resonance vortices add astral energy to the EtOH/H2O moleculates.

When these supercharged EtoH phase products hit the thumper the anti-noise is generated, causing them to quantum oscillate and leave the thumper more so than the protonium oxide strings.

Don't waste any accurate measuments on this, just get p*ssed as farts on the product and you'll see that it works!

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]



I didn't really understand where or what you meant by "measurements" but the rest is 100% correct.

I can FINALLY go to bed!

subsecret - 16-2-2015 at 06:07

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Awesomeness  
If the still is hotter than it needs to be, the thumper is just a fractionating column.


Sigh.

The still CANNOT be hotter 'than it needs to be': the BP of an EtOH/water mixture at atmospheric pressure depends ONLY on mol fraction (ABV if you prefer) EtOH.

The thumper a 'fractionating column'??? Do you know what a fractionating column actually is? :D


But of course, the BP will increase as more alcohol is removed, so hotter vapor will move into the thumper.

The thumper is not an actual fractionating column, that was just an analogy for the re-distillation that happens there.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Awesomeness]

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 06:56

Somebody please give this man a light!
You win the cigar.

images.jpg - 6kB

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 07:07

Quote: Originally posted by Awesomeness  

But of course, the BP will increase as more alcohol is removed, so hotter vapor will move into the thumper.


What goes in must come out.

The only way you can enhance EtOH content is to use a high EtOH end as liquid in the thumper (higher than the EtOH mol fraction in the still's vapour). The incoming vapour then acts as a stripper. But that's 'cheating', in violation of the spirit of this thread and of course it changes nothing to the overall mass balance either.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Fulmen - 16-2-2015 at 07:07

I'll try reiterating my point once more. Forget everything about equilibriums and temperatures for a moment, OK. Lets say you have a simple 1stage still and a batch of mash. You distill this according to all good practices and end up with one liter of 60% alcohol. With me so far? Simple, plain distillation, nothing fancy. What has left the still? Roughly 600grams of ethanol and 400 grams of water, right?
Now do the same process again with a thumper added. What happens? If the still is run in the exact same manner, wouldn't the total output still be the same 600g of alcohol and 400g of water? The final condensate might be more concentrated than the previous 60%, but only if the content of the thumper is correspondingly less concentrated. As long as you don't return any condensate to the still or otherwise change the conditions of the still you cannot change the amounts of alcohol and water that leaves the still.

Just think about it for a while. And don't counter with another explanation, tell me exactly where my logic fails.

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 07:11

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
I'll try reiterating my point once more.


The problem with these people is that just like the advocates (deliberate or inadvertent) of perpetual motion machines they refuse to see the blindingly obvious.

You can't argue with faith.

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 07:22

What is also quite interesting if you look at the 'recommendations' of thumper advocates is that they hopelessly contradict each other.

"The thumper has to be heated." "No, it has to be cooled."

"The thumper has to be empty first." "No, the thumper has to be half-filled with mash."

"The thumper liquid has to be mash." "No, the thumper liquid has to be high ethanol tail ends."

Without any experimental verification anyone can claim anything, of course.

Which is also what awaits anyone who designs a decent experiment: the thumper, according to the faithful, will be "too round/too square/too full/too empty/too hot/too cold/too tall/too squat/not made of copper/made of wood/you're just an elitist/a hillbilly hater"...

Dr.Bob - 16-2-2015 at 07:27

While the descriptions are not great here, it is obvious to me that the thumper is acting like a steam distillation. I have done those before, and if you pipe steam into an unheated vessel, you will heat it, with the energy coming from the first vessel, which will require heat input. So there is nothing violating the rules of thermodynmics there. This is acting as an extra "plate" or step in a distillation.

And I know that you can distill ethanol with a surprisingly short distillation column, using the sieve plates or similar vigreux type column, as stated, as I have done it before and analyzed the resultant ethanol from it, which was quite close to azetrope. I think that people are just not describing the stills well, as they do have a fractionation column involved in most cases, the thumper is just another variation on the extra reflux point.

"Can't we all just get along"

morganbw - 16-2-2015 at 07:30

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
What is also quite interesting if you look at the 'recommendations' of thumper advocates is that they hopelessly contradict each other.

"The thumper has to be heated." "No, it has to be cooled."

"The thumper has to be empty first." "No, the thumper has to be half-filled with mash."

"The thumper liquid has to be mash." "No, the thumper liquid has to be high ethanol tail ends."

Without any experimental verification anyone can claim anything, of course.

Which is also what awaits anyone who designs a decent experiment: the thumper, according to the faithful, will be "too round/too square/too full/too empty/too hot/too cold/too tall/too squat/not made of copper/made of wood/you're just an elitist/a hillbilly hater"...


Chill just a bit. You present a very valid case but please do not toss the thumper just yet. Surely someone here can/will do an article on if it works as a second distillation or not (Zombie, sir?)

Many years ago, I had thought it was simply a puke can to catch bumping.

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 07:36

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw  
You present a very valid case but please do not toss the thumper just yet. Surely someone here can/will do an article on if it works as a second distillation or not (Zombie, sir?)



If I present a valid case then give me one reason NOT to dump the thumper. You're being illogical.

As regards Zombie, he's been writing 'articles' (of faith) on the thumper by the dozen here.

Dr.Bob, on the other hand, hasn't even read the thread.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Fulmen - 16-2-2015 at 07:38

Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob  
This is acting as an extra "plate" or step in a distillation.

Not exactly. in a multistage distillation the liquid from a stage is continuously fed back into the previous stage, without this return the term "fractionate condensing" is better description of what happens.

Quote:
the thumper is just another variation on the extra reflux point

A reflux involves returning part of the condensate back to the previous stage. This can of course be done with the content of the thumper, but that will require extra energy. It's not that a thumper can't be used to produce a more concentrated product, it's the claim that this can be done "for free" that is wrong.

[Edited on 16-2-15 by Fulmen]

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 07:41

Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob  
This is acting as an extra "plate" or step in a distillation.



This not an extra plate. On a plate vapour leaves upwards and liquid phase is constantly removed. This is not the case here.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 16-2-2015 at 07:50

Okay, let me see if I'm understanding this correctly.

When you distill your...crude alcohol?, you wind up with a higher concentration of alcohol in the product. This is undisputed.

Is a thumper not a second distillation stage that will concentrate it further?

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 07:51

I'm quite convinced that a thumper is in fact slightly detrimental to the process. At a very minimum it will delay things and it also loses energy which has to be accounted for.

Insulate it perfectly, ΣΔH = 0, and it acts like a steam pipe.

Cool it (air, for instance) and you'll have to add the energy loss.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 07:53

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
Is a thumper not a second distillation stage that will concentrate it further?


Etaoin, you come very late to this discussion (no criticism intended). I'm loathe to have to repeat all the arguments already made against thumpers.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 07:56

Ask yourself why (as a secondary type argument), if enriching the volatile component in a binary distillation is so simple, we're not all doing this? Why oil refineries aren't jam packed with thumpers?

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 08:27

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
Okay, let me see if I'm understanding this correctly.

When you distill your...crude alcohol?, you wind up with a higher concentration of alcohol in the product. This is undisputed.

Is a thumper not a second distillation stage that will concentrate it further?



Yes! Using the heat supplied from the boiler.

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 08:29

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
I'm quite convinced that a thumper is in fact slightly detrimental to the process. At a very minimum it will delay things and it also loses energy which has to be accounted for.

Insulate it perfectly, ΣΔH = 0, and it acts like a steam pipe.

Cool it (air, for instance) and you'll have to add the energy loss.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]


You're on to something...

IF it is 100% efficient, and insulated it will do NOTHING except pass the vapor thru.

It is in the act of condensation, and re vaporizing the the new vapor is more concentrated. (pure)

morganbw - 16-2-2015 at 08:30

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by morganbw  
You present a very valid case but please do not toss the thumper just yet. Surely someone here can/will do an article on if it works as a second distillation or not (Zombie, sir?)



If I present a valid case then give me one reason NOT to dump the thumper. You're being illogical.

As regards Zombie, he's been writing 'articles' (of faith) on the thumper by the dozen here.

Dr.Bob, on the other hand, hasn't even read the thread.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]


You presented a Hypothesis, well sir (you know what is required:()
You have to attempt to disprove it:)

I love theory as well as anyone and am not yet in disagreement your ideas. Empirical data has always been my diet of choice, not just thought experiments.
This is pointed to you as well Zombie ( I respect data obtained by careful design of experiment way more that I respect opinions which have not been tested nor proven ((clearly enough)) ) even when they seem to be backed by physical laws.

Chemist/physicist are like lawyers. Help us understand these physical laws. It is not always black and white.

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 08:35

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Ask yourself why (as a secondary type argument), if enriching the volatile component in a binary distillation is so simple, we're not all doing this? Why oil refineries aren't jam packed with thumpers?

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]


If the earth were round, why wouldn't we try to sail around it?

I think you can use a thumper on most simple distillations but the compounds have to be close to the same boiling points. Too far apart, and the heat transferred is not enough. Too close together, and simple distillation does not work.

Perhaps it is the oddity of the BP range that makes this work?

blogfast25 - 16-2-2015 at 08:42

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw  

You presented a Hypothesis, well sir (you know what is required:()
You have to attempt to disprove it:)



Higher up I've given the example of NOT having to try and disprove the hypothesis in the case of the chemical conversion of lead to gold.

It's not necessary to conduct experiments re. the chemical conversion of lead to gold because First Principles prove beyond reasonable doubt that it can't be done.

Equally I consider 'thumpers don't work' to have been proved from First Principles.

Having said that, if my confrere (who will remain unnamed until he fully consents) agrees to carry out the experiment then we will. I'm currently off ill and couldn't do it if they paid me for it, sadly.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 08:46

Sorry to hear that Blog. (Illness)

I'm sure someone here that is credible will throw down, and run this.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]
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