Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Society for Amateur Scientists

Society for Amateur Scientists

Magpie - 18-4-2015 at 13:55

In another thread blogfast25 suggested that US recreational chemists should form an association for mutual support. Something like that has existed for some time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Amateur_Scientists

It seems, like everything else, this now resides on facebook.

Zombie - 18-4-2015 at 14:10

It appears that association is now defunct but another has been formed to replace it.

http://www.openscientist.org/2013/09/an-association-for-amat...

Worth looking into further.

Magpie - 18-4-2015 at 14:43

Interesting, Zombie. I take it you saw the link to the facebook page for the Association of Amateur Scientists. It is at the bottom of the page in the Wiki article I linked.

As I peruse these articles I see how this could work well for mathematicians, computer programmers, nature observers, astronomers, theoretical physicists, and others that don't have a component that scares the public/authorities. Physics with high voltage, chemistry with hazardous reagents, and biology with risky microbes may find it hard to be accepted. These latter forms are a big part of sciencemadness.

[Edited on 18-4-2015 by Magpie]

Loptr - 18-4-2015 at 14:51

Yeah, but even pytotechnics are more accepted in society when it is does as part of a guild or group. I have been to a couple Crackerjacks shows, and I have heard they are pretty popular around Northern Va.

As long as it seems to be associated with an *official* organization, it might be more able to pass the initial sanity checks.

blogfast25 - 18-4-2015 at 15:43

Interesting that such initiatives have already existed although they seem to have gone a little dormant currently. I wonder seriously why that is. In a society that highly appreciates science and technology and has undoubtedly numerous 'citizen scientists', creating an umbrella organization should not be extremely difficult (although these things are never easy either, of course).

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

Physics with high voltage, chemistry with hazardous reagents, and biology with risky microbes may find it hard to be accepted. These latter forms are a big part of sciencemadness.

If the latter is true, then creating an initiative using SM as a temporary platform could be starting point.

I honestly believe there is strength in numbers and unity. If the current climate of intimidation worsens, then ‘hiding’ as some here advocate, is not a solution to anything. Secrecy makes one only look more suspicious, IMHO.

And why hide something if you’re not doing anything illegal? Be PROUD of what you’re doing!

It could be a good idea to see how other hobbyists engaging in potentially hazardous activities are organised (assuming they are, of course). Hobby rocketeers spring to mind: potentially dangerous and with potentially nefarious misuses like home-grown terrorism.

Something I think that urgently needs doing is getting a better, more objective gauge on the size of the 'harassment problem'. How prevalent is the problem of hobbyists having their homes raided for no good reason? What's the general 'mood' among citizen scientists with regards to the relation between their hobby and LEO?

[Edited on 19-4-2015 by blogfast25]

blogfast25 - 18-4-2015 at 16:21

Actually, that link by Zombie, links to the CSA, which appears well on its way:

http://citizenscienceassociation.org/

Definitely worth looking into more.

violet sin - 18-4-2015 at 17:22

Just signed up for the CSA

blogfast25 - 18-4-2015 at 17:42

Quote: Originally posted by violet sin

Just signed up for the CSA

Hurray, first SMer (I presume) inside of CSA!

Zombie - 18-4-2015 at 18:01

I''ve looked thru the site. Apparently they are a fledgling association looking to recruit members..At the present time they are offering free membership, and allowing new members to have an input on the structure f the association.

I will look around a bit more to find more info.

At the present time it does appear to be something I might like to be a part of. As has been said... Strength in numbers.

Very good suggestion Mr. Blogfast. Sometimes one word changes everything.

blogfast25 - 18-4-2015 at 18:30

Zombie:

My main reservation with regard to CSA is that their definition of 'citizen science' is not exactly 'amateur science' as we see it here at SM, although there is definitely some overlap.

You're right that they're 'allowing new members to have an input on the structure of the association', which could be a great motive for SMers to get in on the ground floor and help shape it. With internal influence it might be possible to steer some of the Association's attention to the legal plight of some of its members, including hobby chemists. It potentially beats having to build something from the ground up, of course.

violet sin - 18-4-2015 at 18:39

They had an optional, anonymous survey prior to actually filling out the membership form. Both separate pages to ensure anonymity. It asked several questions like " what perks would you consider enticing to join and pay membership?" Paraphrased. They had some predetermined answers and an other box where you could elaborate. You don't have to join to complete the anonymous survey and help give them input. For the above question I opted other, and put access to research papers/journals. They also said after the working framework is up, what kind of special interests should they focus on. I othered-in, validation of serious home/DIY scientists.

Feel free to go speak your mind. The survey took like 10min or so. Not bad

[Edited on 19-4-2015 by violet sin]

Texium - 18-4-2015 at 19:43

I really like this idea. I will also look into joining that association. The only concern that I have with it is that there may be a possibility of some intra-institutional conflict between SMers and other members of the organization if we end up being a large population among the group and the founding members begin to feel as if we are taking over in some way. It's definitely worth a try though. If it doesn't work out, well, perhaps we could start our own association if the current ones won't suit our needs. As previously stated, SM is a great platform to get something like that started if necessary. I mean, we already have many elements that are required for such an organization, and it wouldn't take a ridiculous amount of additional effort to get it off the ground.

Zombie - 18-4-2015 at 19:48

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Zombie:

My main reservation with regard to CSA is that their definition of 'citizen science' is not exactly 'amateur science' as we see it here at SM, although there is definitely some overlap.

You're right that they're 'allowing new members to have an input on the structure of the association', which could be a great motive for SMers to get in on the ground floor and help shape it. With internal influence it might be possible to steer some of the Association's attention to the legal plight of some of its members, including hobby chemists. It potentially beats having to build something from the ground up, of course.

I would have to believe that members of your caliber, and many of the other highly educated members here would be a great asset to their association.

Someone on my level is good for building numbers, and the occasional bright idea (not to sell myself short but look at the company I am keeping).

Perhaps a "joining of forces" between Science Madness, and the association (Admins. blessing of course) could be a huge leap for both.

Just thinking out loud but I'm sure you all get the idea. I didn't see where they have a forum. I might have missed that so far...

Zombie - 18-4-2015 at 19:55

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

I really like this idea. I will also look into joining that association. The only concern that I have with it is that there may be a possibility of some intra-institutional conflict between SMers and other members of the organization if we end up being a large population among the group and the founding members begin to feel as if we are taking over in some way. It's definitely worth a try though. If it doesn't work out, well, perhaps we could start our own association if the current ones won't suit our needs. As previously stated, SM is a great platform to get something like that started if necessary. I mean, we already have many elements that are required for such an organization, and it wouldn't take a ridiculous amount of additional effort to get it off the ground.

Your post came up just as I was posting. While I do not know what is required technically speaking to establish an association I imagine you are also correct that SM has the member base to be a force in any right.

Perhaps we could design a club "Patch", and ride mopeds!

I can envision a couple hundred guys wearing Lab Coats, pocket protectors, and thick clear safety glasses taking over the local Dairy Queen parking lot.

Sorry for that...

blogfast25 - 19-4-2015 at 05:54

Yesterday I completed the no obligations Membership Questionnaire:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q62P9GY

But I haven't signed up yet.

Zombie - 19-4-2015 at 12:01

KUDOS!!! I value your insights so I am certain they will have real value for the A.A.S. as well.

The Volatile Chemist - 19-4-2015 at 13:40

Shit.... I Just thought of starting The Esoteric Chemists Society five days ago and was in planning phase :/ Still doing it. I'll post something in whimsy tomorrow describing it. If anyone thinks it's a good idea then, we could get something started....I'm sure you all think it's one of my typical lame Ideas, but it's lasted 5 days in my head, and I still think it's a good Idea, so.....

We'll wait and see...

phlogiston - 19-4-2015 at 13:57

The Society for Amateur Scientists published some interesting projects/articles over the past decades.
They also contributed a great column for some time to New Scientist called 'The Amateur Scientist"
http://amasci.com/amateur/sciam1.html

Brain&Force - 20-4-2015 at 09:14

Yay, I get to plug Rador Labs!

A lot of our goal involves informing the public about amateur chemistry and fighting chemophobia. We could always use some help with getting videos and other materials out. Praxichys helped us outline stuff for keeping the group organized, but we haven't heard from him in a while.

We have a Skype group if you're interested in joining. There's also a Skype group for SM as a whole if you want to join in...U2U me if interested.

woelen - 20-4-2015 at 22:49

The CSA in my view is quite different from what we pursue at sciencemadness. CSA does not necessarily promote people doing science at their homes in an amateur setting. What they promote is that ordinary people (citizens) can control at least to some extent the research done (e.g. the subject of research, the direction in which a certain development should go), but still that research is done in an official lab of a licensed company, university or other institution.

I also think that we do not necessarily perform research. Some of us may do so, but most of us do experiments, mainly for the fun of it, sometimes for getting a better understanding of the subject, and sometimes just because it is "cool".

Still, the CSA can be a valuable addition to society, but I do not expect much from it in terms of promoting home/amateur science.

Zombie - 20-4-2015 at 23:57

I did raise the question of what one person can do to help make changes.

I'll have to follow that route, and see where it leads.

You have to believe that grass roots are (is) better than nothing.

blogfast25 - 21-4-2015 at 05:27

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

Still, the CSA can be a valuable addition to society, but I do not expect much from it in terms of promoting home/amateur science.

The CSA is quite literally in its formative years. You (SM) can help shape it in your image.

woelen - 21-4-2015 at 06:10

We can help shape it, but completely transforming it is not what we should do. IMHO the CSA is not mainly targeted at amateur science and if we really want to promote that, then I think that a new society (or other existing society) must be used for that purpose. Such a new/other society of course can maintain good relations with the CSA.

blogfast25 - 21-4-2015 at 08:04

woelen:

I think there's more overlap between 'citizen science' and 'amateur science' than you make out, although they're not the same. There could also be some CSA-specific projects that might be of interest to SM, stuff that some SMers might want to actively participate in (that's one reason why I'm considering joining). For many 'lay' budding hobby scientists, taking part in something that goes much beyond one's own potting shed could be a very effective part of their learning curve.

Of course we're not talking about 'transforming' CSA, rather more like getting some limited influence/attention. There certainly wouldn't be much to lose by getting some feelers out. Of course CSA might cold shoulder us but there really is only one way to find out, isn't there?

The alternative is to create a new/other society, like you mentioned. Needless to say, that's not w/o its own set of problems.

Zombie - 21-4-2015 at 09:08

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

woelen:

I think there's more overlap between 'citizen science' and 'amateur science' than you make out, although they're not the same. There could also be some CSA-specific projects that might be of interest to SM, stuff that some SMers might want to actively participate in (that's one reason why I'm considering joining). For many 'lay' budding hobby scientists, taking part in something that goes much beyond one's own potting shed could be a very effective part of their learning curve.

.

I could not agree more.

I have found over, and over again that, no matter what the undertaking there is very little academic growth without outside influence.

Actually I can see where being involved in separate, yet related organizations would be very helpful for lots of us.

You have a group of fellas on one side working on new routes to chemical compounds (aka Aga's Challenges), while the other group is busy lobbying for easier access to chemicals, eliminating drawn shades, making life "real" for amateur chemists.

Without input from both groups there can really be no focus. It does no good to plead for a band aid if you don't know the nature of the injury, so to speak.

I'm convincing myself of the need to join both the CSA, and any other grass roots chemistry group that has a real goal. I kind of like the idea.

It's basically a win / win. (IMHO)

[Edited on 4-21-2015 by Zombie]

blogfast25 - 21-4-2015 at 10:17

I would be very interested in seeing some input from the other moderators and long-standing SM members about any form of SM association with/membership of CSA.

Any thoughts would be most welcome.

[Edited on 21-4-2015 by blogfast25]

violet sin - 21-4-2015 at 22:08

I believe that they would be more interested in the kind of things members put forth in the prepublications section, than anything YouTube-ish. The end goal (for me) in amateur chemistry would be, to be able to supply new content instead of just showing that I could follow others. The way there is obviously learning what has been done and beecoming intimately familiar with the process. And ya, it is kinda offputting to know how much the instrumentation used these days costs, but I'm sure if you make the right connections one could at least find affordable testing.

this is a long term goal that I have wanted since I was a teenager. I don't care if I'm 70 when it happens, but I will eventually get through the schooling to some of those coveted letters befor my name, on a lab coat. This orginization asked a lot of questions about publishing services, and I see that as a possible stepping stone to doing more. somewhere between here and professional chemistry. Maybe they won't pan out but I would like to try and step things up. My job these days has allowed me to start purchasing some lab gear for real investigations. The money can't really be justified if I'm just messing around for the heck of it. (Not going broke, lol, but it is a serious hobby for me).

The more you have laying around in the lab, the more important it is to be connected to real science with solid goals. Being an active participant in several scientific communities, some more and some less professional, would look much better should some of your orders garner attention. I LOVE the community here, don't get me wrong. You all are awesome. But I wouldn't want my only proof of purely scientific interest be a site that has to kick out cooks and kewels on a semiregular basis. Again, not knocking scimad in any way at all, it's a fertile bed of creative thinking and I feel at hoeme here. Usually read at least a few hours here every night before bed. If the daily posts aren't particularly interesting, I search technochem and eventually end up reading patents/research papers if that also proves dull.

I do expect that CSA would have a totally different feel and dynamic. But that might be just the kind of thing to stir up fresh perspective and new contact's. I don't claim to be anywhere near my goal yet, so I hope this doesn't come off pompous. It's more of a statement of intent and what I think being apart of several collectives could mean to one's growth.
-VS-

Zombie - 21-4-2015 at 22:38

That is a very nice post to read Violet.

I think you sort of summed up what many of us are thinking. I don't particularly want a bunch of letters in front of or after my name but the rest of the aspirations are the same.

I'd like to find something new. Even if only on paper... I'd like to understand enough to think up anything new, and make it happen. Diversity is a means to an end, and a very good means in my opinion.

Thanks for that post. It lifted my spirit!

turd - 22-4-2015 at 06:50

Some of us here are into chemistry that is barely to not at all socially acceptable, e.g. cooking up psychoactives. If the agenda of these societies is to underline the honest and law-abiding facet of science, you might do them a disservice.

Texium - 22-4-2015 at 19:47

I got an email today saying that my application to the CSA has been accepted. Not sure what I do from here, but it appears that I am officially a member.

Zombie - 22-4-2015 at 21:23

Quote: Originally posted by turd

Some of us here are into chemistry that is barely to not at all socially acceptable, e.g. cooking up psychoactives. If the agenda of these societies is to underline the honest and law-abiding facet of science, you might do them a disservice.

Same can be said for the NRA. Not to many muggers or murders join tho.

Zombie - 22-4-2015 at 21:26

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

I got an email today saying that my application to the CSA has been accepted. Not sure what I do from here, but it appears that I am officially a member.

KUDOS! You can act as our "mole".

First things first... What's the secret handshake?

whiteshadow - 23-4-2015 at 01:54

got registered finally on CSA , GODDAMIT........you guys saw the questionnaire , they won't ask those many even if u join in nsa , but that stuff was entirely different from what we do here ........ anyways win/win as zombie quoted

The Volatile Chemist - 23-4-2015 at 08:16

So should I join, what does it do/mean, even? Or are we just infiltrating them for the fun of it?

blogfast25 - 23-4-2015 at 08:21

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

So should I join, what does it do/mean, even? Or are we just infiltrating them for the fun of it?

You can simply fill in the questionnaire without joining (join later if you like).

And NO: it's not a question of 'infiltrating' them, for 'fun' or whatever.

macckone - 23-4-2015 at 08:51

Filled out my membership information.
Basically name, e-mail, location.
I am not sure what they refuse someone on
unless it is the embargo countries as this appears
to be US based.

Supposedly about a week to receive a reply.
Guessing they only process applications once a week.

violet sin - 23-4-2015 at 16:38

It took a couple days for my approval letter. Filled out the form on April 18'th and the response came April 21'st. Good to go

The Volatile Chemist - 30-4-2015 at 08:12

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

So should I join, what does it do/mean, even? Or are we just infiltrating them for the fun of it?

You can simply fill in the questionnaire without joining (join later if you like).

And NO: it's not a question of 'infiltrating' them, for 'fun' or whatever.

I have a feeling you have something against me, have perceived me wrongly, or are generally bad at interpreting jokes.

blogfast25 - 30-4-2015 at 08:37

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

I have a feeling you have something against me, have perceived me wrongly, or are generally bad at interpreting jokes.

I have nothing against you (I hardly know you) but maybe your jokes aren't very funny?

'Infiltrating' is a very loaded word, in this context. Better avoided for that reason. Trying to work with or within an existing organisation should not be described that way. Instead of silly jokes, maybe try being serious? It doesn't hurt.