Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Genetically modified organism

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Molecular Manipulations - 24-4-2015 at 10:52

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
"Scientists behind 'golden rice' GM crop to receive humanitarian award from the White House"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-behind-...

Good to know the White House can recognize real applied science that will benefit millions. +1 Islama Obama:D
From the link:

Quote:

Environmental campaigners opposed to golden rice have organised the destruction of experimental field trials on the grounds that the GM rice represents a high-tech “quick fix” to vitamin A deficiency without addressing the underlying problems of poverty and poor nutrition.

Just read that again. They have organised the destruction of experimental field trials. Field trials:D
They're basically saying, "Don't experiment with this (not so) new technology, because *we* already know it won't really solve the problem." Despite it having all the qualities of a solution to the problem, that's about as arrogant as it can get. "Just because it has vitamin A where as white rice doesn't, doesn't mean it will solve the vitamin A deficiency causing tens of millions of cases of blindness and death each year." "It's just a "quick fix"."
At least we (almost) agree that it's a quick fix. Fuck me.:mad::mad:

blogfast25 - 24-4-2015 at 11:22

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
Good to know the White House can recognize real applied science that will benefit millions. +1 Islama Obama:D


Islama Obama?

Care to explain that?

[Edited on 24-4-2015 by blogfast25]

Fulmen - 24-4-2015 at 11:46

Quote:
on the grounds that the GM rice represents a high-tech “quick fix” to vitamin A deficiency without addressing the underlying problems of poverty and poor nutrition.


This is a classic example of allowing perfection to be the enemy of good. Sure, in a perfect world this might not be the perfect solution, but it's nevertheless an improvement that will help a lot of people. Ant it's not done by some evil megacorp to maximize profits:
The company announced in 2004 that it had no continuing interest in the commercial exploitation of golden rice but would continue to support its development as a humanitarian project.

Sometimes I wish we could put the protesters on trial for crimes against humanity.

blogfast25 - 24-4-2015 at 12:29

It's also an example of how zealots always end up over-reaching. Can't really use the 'safety' argument? Just make up something else! Anything, anything to avoid admitting there might be something positive about GM foods...

Molecular Manipulations - 24-4-2015 at 12:32

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  

Islama Obama?

Care to explain that?

Joke from Shameless, some people (not me) believe his birth certificate is fake, and he was in fact born in a Muslim country. This is likely false (and I couldn't care less), but the joke's still funny IMHO.

crazyboy - 24-4-2015 at 13:19

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Crazyboy: I used quote marks because organisms that have been genetically modified by cross breeding or chemical or radiative mutagenic techniques are... genetically modified organisms. No getting around that.


I know what you're trying to say, which is why I'm telling you that you are wrong. I often hear from pro GMO people that all our food is "technically a GMO" because of selective breeding or chemical mutagenesis. This is misinformation. GMOs are made by genetic engineering ie gene knock-out, gene insertion, site directed mutagenesis.

Yes you modify the genome by chemical mutagenesis or selective breeding, that doesn't make it a GMO. A MacBook is a computer, my MacBook is my personal computer. Is my MacBook a PC? No clearly not.

blogfast25 - 24-4-2015 at 13:20

MM:

Thanks for clearing that up. I'd be loathe to think that some who take a rational view on GMOs happen also to belong to the 'Obama is a secret Muslim' or 'birther' fringe-nut groups. Weirder things have happened of course.

blogfast25 - 24-4-2015 at 13:26

Crazyboy:

It's what's known as 'a distinction without a difference'. Much like the difference between a PC and a computer, in fact. It's not worth squabbling about because the argument that selectively bred/chemo or radiative mutagenic varieties have also undergone genetic modification is a good one and made in good faith.

[Edited on 24-4-2015 by blogfast25]

Chemosynthesis - 24-4-2015 at 13:35

Whenever I see criticism of GMO crops, I don't normally see both sides of the risk/benefit analysis portrayed. I really hope I don't popularize it by making light of it.... My favorite arguments revolves around prions. We could make new prions in GMOs. Yes, I suppose. The likelihood of any prions forming would be miniscule, and we test the newly inserted proteins, so they would need to have chaperon effects on previously present ones, which is unlikely, as well as allow development from unicellular organism to adult plant/cow/whatever, which is even less likely... but I can't help but shake my head and point to how the USDA and scientists are making headway in preventing prions that already exist naturally!

You essentially have the chance go trade a known problem with the minuscule risk of recreating it on a smaller scale... so, still likely to reduce prion diseases. Now, you may introduce other problems (largely from GMO induced policy rather than necessarily the organisms themselves), but we manage to have these problems today anyway. If you reduce pesticide use, which is fossil-fuel intensive as well as polluting from runoff, we have a known target benefit to account for. I view it similarly to antibiotics. Did antibiotics cause such massive overpopulation that humanity went extinct? No. Worst case scenario with antibiotics is that resistance proliferated to the extent we are just as vulnerable as we were before their advent. Is this really a net loss, or did we capitalize on decades of relative impunity? Consider bacteria have more labile plasmid DNA than eukaryotes. In one sense, this means the college genetics, molecular biology, and possibly some biochemistry labs are risking much more unforeseen consequences than one might consider with golden rice or BSE-free cattle. High schools even have been known to demonstrate some of these, apparently.

Quote: Originally posted by crazyboy  
I know what you're trying to say, which is why I'm telling you that you are wrong. I often hear from pro GMO people that all our food is "technically a GMO" because of selective breeding or chemical mutagenesis. This is misinformation. GMOs are made by genetic engineering ie gene knock-out, gene insertion, site directed mutagenesis. Yes you modify the genome by chemical mutagenesis or selective breeding, that doesn't make it a GMO. A MacBook is a computer, my MacBook is my personal computer. Is my MacBook a PC? No clearly not.
Even ignoring radiation induced mutations for some odd reason, I am not sure I agree with you on the actual practical difference in effect. Just because the preferred technique to KO or KD a gene has changed doesn't mean natural viral insertion doesn't knock in the entire viral genome in an organism, or that a coding region point mutation resulting in missense truncation of an active site isn't a functional knockout. Likewise, a SNP in a promoter can cause a knockup/down. Transposons can cause gene duplication, removal, reversal, or merely an insertion at a new location. Did you know up to 85% of at least one strain of corn's genome is comprised of various types of transposons? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19965430
Pretty fascinating. Our genomes, much as our transcriptomes, vary much more than people often think. Our protein expression levels help set our circadian clocks, and vary throughout a 24 hour cycle. Our infant hemoglobin wasn't the same as when we matured either.

Just because we are so much more efficient at willfully manipulating these changes doesn't invalidate that the techniques naturally occur. Indels and point mutations both also occur in somatic hypermutation for immune responses, and no one seems to be concerned about that natural immune response (though few are probably aware). The difference is what force/will/selectivity is involved in carrying out the changes over a particular timescale.

I don't care if someone altered a genome with heat shock, lipofectamine, modified HSV, CRISPR, etc. other than professional curiosity. We don't call them different organisms based on technique.
In fact, the last time I heard anyone ask outside of a techniques conference or dissertation defense was to ask their grad student if they were using lipofectamine solely because it was expensive and they didn't want to order more, not because they cared how they were altering a genome.

[Edited on 24-4-2015 by Chemosynthesis]

Fulmen - 24-4-2015 at 13:48

This distinction is partly semantic, partly technical and somewhat a matter of degree. The bottom line is that it's at least not totally unrelated.

With selective breeding we don't know what happens, but we nevertheless take advantage of it. We know that horizontal gene transfer can occur in nature, so even with selective breeding we take the non-zero risk of ending up with a naturally produced GMO. And that begs the question of what the distinction between "natural" and "man made" GMOs really is?

Mutagens actually rewrite DNA rather than just transpose it between organisms, if this is OK why would artificial rewritten DNA be so much worse? It's monkeys with typewriters vs. Shakespeare. Why should finding something from a pile of random scribblings be any more benign than something written with purpose?

Are we really doing something fundamentally different with GMOs or are we simply doing things more efficiently?

aga - 24-4-2015 at 13:59

The biggest opposition to GM is due to the fact that it is messing with the bits that make Life work, and that scares the bejeesus out of people.

Quite rightly too.

The same happened when atomic fission was first being explored.

Manipulating DNA sequences can, and will have unexpected results when the organism interacts with wild genes.

Unexpected as the subject is so vast and relatively new that we don't know exactly what will happen.

However there is no other way to find out, so to learn those effects it needs to be done and studied.

As i said before, Humans are a natural product of this planet, which means that the things we do are fundamentally natural acts.

Arguing otherwise is like saying that an intelligent goat that chooses to crap in a hot spring instead of in the field is deranging nature.

blogfast25 - 24-4-2015 at 14:45

aga:

Quote:
The biggest opposition to GM is due to the fact that it is messing with the bits that make Life work, and that scares the bejeesus out of people.


Turning the old, wild carrot species into the tens of agricultural varieties we know now isn’t ‘messing with the bits that make life work’? How about cross-breeding the common wolf into a Chihuahua? Creating seedless grapes, by cross breeding? The list is endless.

Quote:
Manipulating DNA sequences can, and will have unexpected results when the organism interacts with wild genes.

Unexpected as the subject is so vast and relatively new that we don't know exactly what will happen.


Assertion without even an attempt to provide a scintilla of evidence. Pure opinion, nothing else. You also grossly underestimate Mankind’s understanding of molecular biology at this point in history.

Unintended consequences can never be fully anticipated but that is true of any technology, ‘new’ or ‘old’ for that matter. Our entire approach to agriculture (for instance) has had consequences, many of which aren’t particularly desirable. It’s hardly unique to anything and not to GMO either.

People fear what they don’t understand, yet lazily refuse to inform themselves on the current state of the art science. In your case, QED.

You demand more research, yet refuse to acquaint yourself with even the basics of molecular biology (had you done so you wouldn’t be using meaningless phrases like “[…] when the organism interacts with wild genes” and other blinders above).

Quote:
However there is no other way to find out, so to learn those effects it needs to be done and studied.


2,000+ studies done in the last 10 years alone.

Quote:
As i said before, Humans are a natural product of this planet, which means that the things we do are fundamentally natural acts.


Bollocks (not to mention irrelevant). By no stretch of the imagination can something like a ‘car’ be described as ‘natural’.

Zombie - 24-4-2015 at 14:57

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  


Quote:
As i said before, Humans are a natural product of this planet, which means that the things we do are fundamentally natural acts.


Bollocks (not to mention irrelevant). By no stretch of the imagination can something like a ‘car’ be described as ‘natural’.



I kind of giggled at that one... We're not what I would describe as "environmentally friendly".

I don't think ten million years of GMO's could do the damage that we have done in 2 centuries. I am sure we (as a species) will never know...

[Edited on 4-24-2015 by Zombie]

blogfast25 - 24-4-2015 at 15:11

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  

I kind of giggled at that one... We're not what I would describe as "environmentally friendly".



No, but that wasn't my point. We are the only species that shapes its own future by deliberate, reason-based actions (granted, we're not always very good at it), that's 'culture', not 'nature'.

'Natural' really is a bit of a red herring, especially in the context of this debate: we've been altering genomes since the advent of agriculture and these interventions aren't 'natural' either. Anti-GMOers, going by the frequent use of the word 'natural' in their campaigning materials, seem to think they are, ergo 'better'.

[Edited on 24-4-2015 by blogfast25]

Fulmen - 24-4-2015 at 15:24

I agree, the whole concept of "natural" is a red herring. Being mawled by a grizzly or getting sepsis from a bacterial infection is completely natural, it doesn't mean it's in our best interest. The only thing that matters is if the food is overall healthy, not why it turned out that way. If anything GMOs should be safer than other foods as they have been tested much more thoroughly than other foods.

aga - 24-4-2015 at 15:55

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
We are the only species that shapes its own future by deliberate, reason-based actions

What utter crap.

I suppose we're the only tool-using species too, and magically Better than ants.

We're not.

We're just a Current species blindly fiddling about with the brains we have and doing things (hopefully) differently.

How we have Applied our new found knowledge is hardly any cause for celebration.

Amos - 24-4-2015 at 16:21

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
We are the only species that shapes its own future by deliberate, reason-based actions

What utter crap.

I suppose we're the only tool-using species too, and magically Better than ants.

We're not.

We're just a Current species blindly fiddling about with the brains we have and doing things (hopefully) differently.

How we have Applied our new found knowledge is hardly any cause for celebration.


I would say that a percentage of our actions are deliberate and reason-based, some humans more than others. But other animals do that, too, if perhaps less often. There's no hard line that separates us from other animals. But I do feel that the more we know, the more we have a responsibility to not screw everything up for other lifeforms and for future generations.

blogfast25 - 24-4-2015 at 16:35

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
We are the only species that shapes its own future by deliberate, reason-based actions

What utter crap.

I suppose we're the only tool-using species too, and magically Better than ants.

We're not.

We're just a Current species blindly fiddling about with the brains we have and doing things (hopefully) differently.

How we have Applied our new found knowledge is hardly any cause for celebration.


Keep the straw men coming, aga. Burn them before you leave.

I don’t believe we are ‘better’ in any moral or ethical sense of the word, nor did I imply that. ‘Reason-based’ implies no moral judgement. ‘Better/worse’ doesn’t come into my reasoning and I thought that was rather clear. I also thought you knew me better than that.

You don’t believe technology development requires Reason? We don’t apply logic to do these things? We just ‘blindly fiddle about with the brains we have’? No Reason, no motivation or targeted efforts? When you carry out some experiment or other you’re just… I dunno… blindly ramming things together for no particular reason, not based on anything that came before or might come of it? Your goal is not to achieve some level of understanding? Because if you do want to achieve that, that's called Reason

Quote:
How we have Applied our new found knowledge is hardly any cause for celebration.


This kind of crass generalisation is almost devoid of any meaning. What we do ranges from the ridiculous to the sublime, from the highly harmful to the highly beneficial. Cause for celebration? Sometimes yes, often not.



blogfast25 - 24-4-2015 at 16:38

Quote: Originally posted by Amos  
There's no hard line that separates us from other animals.


I fully agree (and evidence for it is strongly on the rise). But it doesn't contradict what I wrote.

In addition, the fact that humans are also often deeply irrational doesn't change the fact that we are capable of very high level reasoning.

[Edited on 25-4-2015 by blogfast25]

Amos - 24-4-2015 at 16:39

I don't mean this as a shot at you, blogfast, as you've certainly seen me do the same before, but I can't help mentioning that the emotional response you may be having to aga's last post isn't entirely reason-based.

We're still animals, and we're still flawed. But I do think we're farther along and have a better sense of what we're doing and better REASONING for why we do it.

blogfast25 - 24-4-2015 at 16:47

Quote: Originally posted by Amos  
I don't mean this as a shot at you, blogfast, as you've certainly seen me do the same before, but I can't help mentioning that the emotional response you may be having to aga's last post isn't entirely reason-based.



No one's responses are fully reason-based, or do you think aga's (or yours for that matter) are?

He's annoyed me several times on this thread and I make no attempt at hiding it.

As regards his fears about some kind of leaking of genes or DNA of transgenetic organisms into the 'wild', it would help a lot if he could simply concretise these fears at least a little.

[Edited on 25-4-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 24-4-2015 at 17:33

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Amos  


In addition, the fact that humans are also often deeply irrational doesn't change the fact that we are capable of very high level reasoning.

[Edited on 25-4-2015 by blogfast25]



This statement is entirely subjective. We have no REAL comparator. The only qualification of this statement is an assumption based on what you believe.

WE actually have NO CLUE as to what the earth would be or what would "naturally" transpire without OUR interdiction.

Your statement there reminds me of "God Loves You".

There is NO way of proving it is correct in any form.

That edited strangely. I was replying to mr blog, and it was his quote I am replying to. Not amos...

[Edited on 4-25-2015 by Zombie]

Amos - 24-4-2015 at 17:52

Quote:
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Amos  


In addition, the fact that humans are also often deeply irrational doesn't change the fact that we are capable of very high level reasoning.

[Edited on 25-4-2015 by blogfast25]



This statement is entirely subjective. We have no REAL comparator. The only qualification of this statement is an assumption based on what you believe.

WE actually have NO CLUE as to what the earth would be or what would "naturally" transpire without OUR interdiction.

Your statement there reminds me of "God Loves You".

There is NO way of proving it is correct in any form.

That edited strangely. I was replying to mr blog, and it was his quote I am replying to. Not amos...

[Edited on 4-25-2015 by Zombie]


Yeah, what's the big idea, attributing that to me!? ;)

As for my response to you, "mr blog", I was just trying to show that there's an in-between to both of yours arguments that might satisfy both of you.

Aga, could you go into a little more detail about what you mean by the genetics of genetically modified organisms "escaping"(not sure if you actually said that) into the wild? If what you're trying to say is that it might throw the ecosystem off, then I'm tempted to agree, but I feel comfortable enough knowing that the modifications are pinpointed to only change the minimum amount of DNA necessary to effect a desired trait. So simple things like adding a source of vitamin A to common white rice seem very unlikely to negatively impact the ecosystem.

If one of your concerns is the potential buildup of pesticide or herbicide tolerance in various other species such as pests or weeds, then yes, I second that concern.

Edit: I have no idea what's causing the quote function to be used on this message. Probably Zombie and his aliens.

[Edited on 4-25-2015 by Amos]

Zombie - 24-4-2015 at 18:03

That's what happened to me... The quotes fouled up. Maybe Chemo genetically modified it?

I'm a little scared now...

blogfast25 - 25-4-2015 at 04:51

Whoever made the following statements:

Quote:
This statement is entirely subjective. We have no REAL comparator. The only qualification of this statement is an assumption based on what you believe.

WE actually have NO CLUE as to what the earth would be or what would "naturally" transpire without OUR interdiction.


We DO have a comparator: we can compare the products of Man’s most sophisticated reasoning with that of his smartest animal ‘competitors’. It’s a world of difference (show me an animal species capable of producing a science paradigm like Quantum Physics or building a cathedral)

Yes to the second phrase but I don’t see what it has to do with anything. I’m not passing a value judgement on Reason, only claiming it can produce astonishing results.

Quote:
If what you're trying to say is that it might throw the ecosystem off, then I'm tempted to agree,


Explain what you mean by “throw[ing] the ecosystem off”. Is it not reasonable to assume, based on past experience with agriculture (e.g.), that if there did occur some ‘leakage’ into the ‘wild’ we would simply intervene and take counter-measures? That it's unlikely that the ecosystem as a whole would be compromised?

Chemosynthesis - 25-4-2015 at 05:22

Zombie, you mixed up an "rquote" for the "/rquote" early on in that post and it threw off any further quotation attempts. Easy mistake to make, and I do it when I post in a hurry sometimes. Make sure you group your "rquote" with "/rquote" and your "quote" with "/quote".

blogfast25 - 25-4-2015 at 05:29

Appeal to aga (and Amos):

Try and formulate some of the fears you have regarding 'interaction' of transgenic organisms with the wider, living environment. It would make any further debate more focused. Reasoning in a vacuum gets us nowhere.

aga - 25-4-2015 at 05:31

Yes, sorry.

I will try to make my next post contain actual useful information.

May be a while.

blogfast25 - 25-4-2015 at 05:37

Thanks. Look forward to it.

Amos - 25-4-2015 at 06:38

I was the one saying that it might potentially put an ecosystem out of balance. Genetic modifications that allow crops to either a) mimic or directly synthesize a pesticide to prevent themselves being eaten by pests, or b) withstand powerful herbicides meant to kill weeds, are the two that concern me.

Overusing pesticides, and producing cultivars that directly integrate pesticide or pest-deterrent production into their genome may force the pests that formerly ate them to evolve, developing resistance to the chemicals as a way to allow themselves to get at our crops once more. In response, we may have to develop other, new pesticides to combat the pests. Now, some pesticides may have harmful health effects on humans, and luckily, we test the crap out of them before they're used. But while a huge number of potential pesticides can probably be engineered if we really have to, how many of them will be safe enough for humans to consume in trace amounts in their food? And how many of those will be safe enough for limited release into the surrounding environment? And if it gets to the point where we're out of options, will the government just okay the least dangerous of the available choices?

Another thing, still under topic a, is that if we do end up breeding into existence a pest that is resistant to several formerly effective pesticides, what's to stop that pest from attacking farms that don't have the resources necessary to use the newer, less conventional pesticides? Or destroying vulnerable plant species in the wild? I find it to be a dilemma similar to how prevalent antibiotics are in today's world, and how more and more we are hearing about cases multiple-antibiotic-resistant bacteria that prove hard to treat.

The second area of concern works similarly: what if we accidentally breed into existence a series of weeds that can't really be killed by any of today's means? Do we just develop stronger and stronger herbicides and blanket the ground with them? Then we have a whole new set of worries about our food's safety and the health of the environment in response to the new herbicides.

God no, I'm not worried about the genetic material of GMOs somehow leaking out and causing mutations or whatever other crazy theories have been perpetuated. I just think that producing GMOs like those mentioned above, which largely seem to be about increasing yields for profit, should be regulated; after all, there are much better improvements to crops that we could seek, like making them hardier in certain climates, using less water, less fertilizer, or being more nutritious.

blogfast25 - 25-4-2015 at 08:01

I think it’s important to understand that the long history of agriculture is essentially the chronicle of a long battle between farmers and weeds/pests and the potential of the latter to develop resistance to herbicides/pesticides. That problem much predates GM crops.

Information on resistant weed species:

http://weedscience.org/

From: https://gmoanswers.com/ask/why-are-genetically-modified-crop...

Quote:
Firstly, there is the context and type of GM crop technology being used. This currently falls into two main types: insect-resistant crops, which are specifically designed to make a crop resistant to a specific pest or pests and can be found in widespread use in corn and cotton crops around the world, and herbicide-tolerant crops, where the GM technology allows crops to tolerate application of specific herbicides (notably glyphosate) for improved weed control, and which can be found in widespread use in the crops of soybeans, corn, canola, sugar beet and cotton.

The GM insect-resistant (GM IR) technology provides a form of protection against pests and often replaces insecticides as a form of control. In corn and cotton, the use of GM insect-resistant technology has resulted in major reductions in the usage of insecticides that have been traditionally used to control the pests the GM technology now controls. For example, between 1996 and 2011, the use of insecticides on these crops in the countries using the technology has fallen by nearly 240 million kg of insecticide active ingredient.

The GM herbicide-tolerant (GM HT) technology allows farmers to simplify and improve their weed control through the use of one or two herbicides that are effective against a broad range of weeds, instead of having to often rely on the use of a larger number of herbicides that are more selective in their ability to control weeds. In other words, the adoption of this GM technology has resulted in a change in the profile of herbicides used in many countries. In some, mostly developing countries, the GM HT technology has also enabled farmers to significantly improve their weed control by replacing hand weeding, which is unpopular and difficult to find people willing to do. Not surprisingly, the impact of adoption of this technology on herbicide usage varies by crop, country and time. Using the United States as an example, in the early years of adoption across all crops, GM HT technology use resulted in significant aggregate reductions in the volume of (weight of active ingredient) herbicides used in crops such as corn and canola. However, there were differences among the crops, and in some, such as soybeans, the average amount of herbicide active ingredient applied remained largely unaltered, or increased in the case of sugar beet.

Since the mid-2000s, in the main crops of corn, cotton and soybeans in the United States, the average amount of herbicide applied to crops has tended to increase. The main reason for this has been increasing incidence of weed species becoming resistance to the main herbicide used with GM HT crops, glyphosate, and increasing recognition among farmers, coupled with both public- and private-sector weed scientist recommendations, that weed-management programs should diversify, and not rely on a single herbicide for total weed control. Farmers have therefore increasingly incorporated one or two other herbicides, in addition to glyphosate, into their weed-management programs.

The development of weed species resistant to herbicides should, however, be placed in context. Nearly all weed species have the potential to develop resistance to herbicides, and there are hundreds of resistant weed species confirmed in the International Survey of Herbicide Resistant Weeds. Reports of herbicide-resistant weeds predate the use of GM HT crops by decades. The development of weeds resistant to herbicides is therefore a problem faced by all farmers, not just those using GM HT technology. In fact, GM HT technology offered a solution to controlling some weeds that had developed resistance to mainstream herbicides used in soybeans in the mid-1990s. The use of herbicides on conventional (non-GM) arable crops in the United States is equally affected by weed-resistance issues, and herbicide use patterns on conventional crops have followed the upward trends that have occurred in GM HT crops.

Secondly, any examination of the impact of GM crop technology should also consider the alternative if GM technology were not used. Past practices for weed or pest control from the days before GM technology was first used are unlikely to reflect what current farmers would likely use, because of the development of new pesticides and other control methods, the withdrawal of some old pesticides, changes in farm practices and experience and a desire amongst farmers to maintain or improve levels of weed or pest control, rather than accept poorer levels of control that may have occurred in the past. Any reasonable assessment of what the "alternative" pattern of pesticide use on crops would be in the absence of GM crops should therefore take these factors into consideration, and a common approach used to do this is to consult weed or pest control scientists and advisors as to what they think are likely alternative pest or weed control programs that would currently be applied if GM technology was no longer used. This is an approach I have used in numerous studies in peer-reviewed journals of pesticide-use change with GM crops (an example reference is provided at the end). In summary, the key findings of this research shows that the conventional alternative to GM crops invariably result in higher levels of pesticide being used relative to the current levels with GM crops. This means that while, for example, total herbicide use with GM HT crops in the United States has increased in recent years, it would have likely risen by even greater amounts if conventional (non-GM) technology had been used instead.

Lastly, any consideration of pesticide use change impacts with GM crops should assess the associated environmental impact. While the amount of pesticide applied to a crop is one way of trying to measure the environmental impact of pesticide use, this is not a good measure of environmental impact, because the toxicity and risk of each pesticide is not directly related to the amount (weight) applied. For example, the environmental impact of applying 1 kg of dioxin to a crop or land is far more toxic than applying 1 kg of salt. There exist alternative (and better) measures, which have been used by a number of authors of peer-reviewed papers, to assess the environmental impact of pesticide use change with GM crops, rather than simply looking at changes in the volume of active ingredient applied to crops. In analysis I have been involved in undertaking for several years on pesticide use change impact with GM crops, we analyzed both active-ingredient use changes and utilized the indicator known as the environmental impact quotient (EIQ) to assess the broader impact on the environment (plus impact on animal and human health). The EIQ distills the various environmental and health impacts of individual pesticides in different GM and conventional production systems into a single “field value per hectare” and draws on key toxicity and environmental exposure data related to individual products. Developed at Cornell University in the 1990s, it provides a better measure to contrast and compare the impact of various pesticides on the environment and human health than weight of active ingredient alone. It is, however, an indicator only (primarily of toxicity) and does not take into account all environmental issues and impacts.

Our latest analysis, covering the period 1996–2011 (see reference at the end) shows that GM traits have contributed to a significant reduction in the environmental impact associated with insecticide and herbicide use on the areas devoted to GM crops. Since 1996, the use of pesticides on the GM crop area was reduced by 473.7 million kg of active ingredient (an 8.9 percent reduction), and the environmental impact associated with herbicide and insecticide use on these crops, as measured by the EIQ indicator, fell by 18.3 percent.

In absolute terms, the largest environmental gain has been associated with the adoption of GM insect-resistant (IR) technology. GM IR cotton has contributed a 24.8 percent reduction in the volume of active ingredient used and a 27.3 percent reduction in the EIQ indicator (1996–2011), due to the significant reduction in insecticide use that the technology has allowed, in what has traditionally been an intensive user of insecticides. Similarly, the use of GM IR technology in corn has led to important reductions in insecticide use, with associated environmental benefits.

The volume of herbicides used in GM corn crops also decreased by 193 million kg (1996–2011), a 10.1 percent reduction, while the overall environmental impact associated with herbicide use on these crops decreased by a significantly larger 12.5 percent. This highlights the switch in herbicides used with most GM herbicide-tolerant (HT) crops to active ingredients with a more environmentally benign profile than the ones generally used on conventional crops.

Important environmental gains have also arisen in the soybean and canola sectors. In the soybean sector, herbicide use decreased by 12.5 million kg (1996–2011), and the associated environmental impact of herbicide use on this crop area decreased, due to a switch to more environmentally benign herbicides (-15.5 percent). In the canola sector, farmers reduced herbicide use by14.8 million kg (a 17.3 percent reduction), and the associated environmental impact of herbicide use on this crop area fell by 27.1 percent (due to a switch to more environmentally benign herbicides).


I believe the past is the best predictor of the future. So far, using a variety of strategies, challenges posed by ‘nature’s war on human agriculture’<sup>*</sup> have been met adequately. I see no reason why the advent of GMOs would change that (but I do see cases where GMO can give the edge over non GM strategies).

<sup>*</sup> (Because that's what it is of course: those wonderfully natural critters trying to steal our resources, ruthlessly and unrelentingly.)

Amos wrote:

Quote:
God no, I'm not worried about the genetic material of GMOs somehow leaking out and causing mutations or whatever other crazy theories have been perpetuated. I just think that producing GMOs like those mentioned above, which largely seem to be about increasing yields for profit, should be regulated; after all, there are much better improvements to crops that we could seek, like making them hardier in certain climates, using less water, less fertilizer, or being more nutritious.


Firstly, the GMO industry IS heavily regulated. Compare that to the ‘develop today, take to market tomorrow’ of non-GMO cross-breeding methods.

Secondly, do you have evidence that ‘making crops hardier in certain climates, using less water, less fertilizer, or being more nutritious’ really are the priorities we should currently be looking at? And if so, do you have evidence that GM strategies cannot or are less well placed to play a part in achieving those objectives?

[Edited on 25-4-2015 by blogfast25]

Chemosynthesis - 25-4-2015 at 08:02

This is not meant to discredit your post, but I want to point out that GMOs are regulated, and this is in absolutely no risk of changing any time soon. Not only is most of the research driven by government funding, which is heavily regulated in and of itself, but most research takes place in public (government, though often state government) universities with their own internal regulatory controls in addition to the numerous government scientists on staff in dedicated regulatory agencies such as the USDA and FDA, which provide oversight for food and drug related products.
I don't even work in the field of GMO food, but I am insulted when people insinuate my work is somehow not regulated (particularly given where I have worked). You may wish to consider your phrasing somewhat.
Edit- Ah, one second lag behind Blogfast. He's on his game.

I can't believe I missed this from page 1:
Quote: Originally posted by ISCGora  
Please read my post.I said "There are probably some other sources just search it."

I didn't say you need to research for me so your statement is not true also:
I read your post. You asked to explain some fallacious "research" and so I posted a scientific rebuttle link. My next statement is factual. Maybe you need to work on your reading comprehension. For you to fail to cite a legitimate source and then tell us to fill in the blanks in your convoluted logic with other sources while apparently ignoring a scientific critique is ridiculous.
Let me refresh your memory on the exchange:
You made the claim "nothing can grow after maybe 5-8 years on dirt where GMOs were farmed" and asked for debate.
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=62...
I responded in part with "Saying GMO crops do anything specific, without specifying the crop and giving actual data, is just worthless. "
Your response, rather than provide data was:
Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis  
Quote: Originally posted by ISCGora  
Okay how do you all explain results from research of Dr. Arpad Pusztai in Great Britain?

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_geneticfoo...

There are probably some other sources just search it.

It's not our job to do your research for you. Please provide some peer-reviewed literature with attached methodologies such as the history of the animals used for animal studies, instead of some random website if you want any kind of semi-educated discussion on the matter, which will probably just go over the heads of lay public anyway, and waste everyone's time. Thanks.

Also, see
1. http://academicsreview.org/reviewed-content/genetic-roulette...
2. J R Soc Med. 2008 Jun;101(6):290-8. doi: 10.1258/jrsm.2008.070372.

[Edited on 22-4-2015 by Chemosynthesis]


My post was that our job isn't to give you citations for your argument, and that you should please provide peer-reviewed literature with the appropriate methodologies for perusal if you want an educated response. Your behavior is not how logical thinking or debate works. You need to support your point with evidence. When evidence seems to conflict, methodological and statistical comparisons are heavily relied on to integrate competing assessments. This is how science generally operates, though is applicable to all rational conversation. You don't just make a statement about leaching soil nutrients, ask someone to explain some research, then ignore their explanation and criticisms while expecting them to support your original point for you on their own time. That's lazy and unintellectual.

The appropriate response to my polite request would be to cite a peer-reviewed paper with the specifications I requested rather than expect us to go hunt for it. You would also read my suggestions, including the first link to a critique of the actual primary literature that is reported as hearsay in your non-scientific, non-peer-reviewed site. When you find something you don't understand, you ask questions about it, and then address the content rather than just dismiss it out of your ignorance and injury.



Quote:
Also two things you gave are nothing more then as you said "semi-educated discussion on the matter".
They are/contain peer-reviewed sources, unlike yours, so they are lightyears ahead of what you posted. Your source contains misleading pictures taken out of context to support a conspiracy theory in place of actual data and citation. The critique I posted summarizes how this lack of context is misleading. It appears this truly is a semi-educated discussion, as in half of the conversation is coming from an educated standpoint.... As I also predicted, it must have gone completely over the lay public's ability to understand, given your post; you can't even be bothered to read! Do you want us to actually post explanations like you asked (my first source) or not?
Quote: Originally posted by ISCGora  
Found something interesting but dont hvae time to read all:

http://ec.europa.eu/research/biosociety/pdf/a_decade_of_eu-f...
You don't have time to read it, but you want us to? Lazy. If this is the way you act with all your sources, you shouldn't have an opinion. Certainly you shouldn't be categorizing research and regulation you clearly don't come close to comprehending as "minimal." You do not have the knowledgebase to make such assessments, and it's obvious that you aren't here to have an open discussion or learn, but rather confirm a bias you hold, which is much easier than having to think, learn new information and reconsider currently held beliefs.

[Edited on 25-4-2015 by Chemosynthesis]

Amos - 25-4-2015 at 08:55

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  


Secondly, do you have evidence that ‘making crops hardier in certain climates, using less water, less fertilizer, or being more nutritious’ really are the priorities we should currently be looking at? And if so, do you have evidence that GM strategies cannot or are less well placed to play a part in achieving those objectives?

[Edited on 25-4-2015 by blogfast25]


No, I don't have evidence that those are "better" objectives, but I think it'd be nice to focus on making sure the rest of the globe has enough to eat long-term before we worry about inconsistency in our considerable food supply in the U.S., don't you think?

I understand that the industry is regulated(you guys made sure to mention that to me earlier), but I guess what I'd really prefer is caps on when and how much pesticide or herbicides can be used on crops. I don't know when or how often would be considered an appropriate level, that's for environmental analysts. And if there already IS such a system in place, my bad.

Chemosynthesis - 25-4-2015 at 09:04

Those sound like policy questions rather than scientific ones, and not specific to any particular type or technique of food source/manipulation.

Amos - 25-4-2015 at 09:08

Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis  
Those sound like policy questions rather than scientific ones, and not specific to any particular type or technique of food source/manipulation.


I don't know what questions you're referring to, or what I'm supposed to interpret this post as saying.

blogfast25 - 25-4-2015 at 09:11

Quote: Originally posted by Amos  


No, I don't have evidence that those are "better" objectives, but I think it'd be nice to focus on making sure the rest of the globe has enough to eat long-term before we worry about inconsistency in our considerable food supply in the U.S., don't you think?



Fair point. But I'm not convinced that agricultural policies in some parts of the developing world are the main or only causes of malnutrition or even famine. Extremely skewed wealth distribution, resource wars (e.g. Congo/Zaire) and often disastrous 'land reform' policies (e.g. Zimbabwe) are political problems.

In the developed world, any (relatively rare) malnutrition isn't caused by any food shortages but merely by extreme wealth distribution. No amount or type of agricultural management can change that.


[Edited on 25-4-2015 by blogfast25]

Chemosynthesis - 25-4-2015 at 09:12

Asking about opinion on the focus of applying scarce food resources, or the hypothetical of pesticide/herbicide use sound like policy questions. Science doesn't decide what should be done, but looks at what has been done, objectively, and predicts what is likely to occur if something is done, based on previous observation. Policy is subjective.

blogfast25 - 25-4-2015 at 09:37

Quote: Originally posted by ISCGora  
Found something interesting but dont hvae time to read all:

http://ec.europa.eu/research/biosociety/pdf/a_decade_of_eu-f...


He's less likely to read it because it goes strongly against the 'they just haven't done the science' anti-GMO mantra.

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