Sciencemadness Discussion Board

An Amateur organizing organisation for chemistry

The Volatile Chemist - 30-4-2015 at 06:59

EsoCheS

The Esoteric Chemist’s Society fills a gap for amateurs that would only otherwise be filled completely by professional organizations. The ACS organizes, through the Chemical Abstracts Service, professional publications that move forward chemistry. No such organization at this moment exists for legitimate amateur chemists.

The title of EsoCheS, The Esoteric Chemist’s Society, derives from the esoteric qualities of pure research for the amateur chemist. There is little desire to publish a new path or complex, or data collected, if it doesn’t end with a bang, or bright colors. Still, important information can be gathered by amateurs. Such information is mixed among discussion on discussion forums such as Sciencemadness.org, a community for English-speaking amateur chemists. Nonetheless, the finding of needed information can be difficult, despite its existence, due to the lack of organization of the data spread throughout books and websites. Thus, an organization for the collectivization of data for amateurs is necessary to remove the clutter from data, and make it easier to access.

Since the title of the society portrays that members are interested in process, research, and data, not just product, other enterprises by this amateur society in regards to these qualities would eventually form. Such might be for the open-sourcing of data, or entry into competitions as a group.

Also, the organization itself represents an idea of amateur experimentation. Thus subjects relating to any form of experimentation, any science or math may become sub-focuses of the society.

This organization will work best with a large hierarchy of members, constantly changing according to activity within the society, and profitability of the endeavors of the members. Nonetheless, a single owner is necessary to keep focus, as an organization board or democracy is easily led astray by sub-committees and secondary projects from its original goal. Underneath the owner will be a board of at least 5 members, which will make defining decisions for the organization, creating sub-committees for the organization. The board will affirm issues with a 2/3 majority. Affirmation may be nullified by the owner unless all members of the board agree to the affirmation of the proposal. Any member of EsoCheS may submit a proposal. The board’s existence will be initiated by the joining of the twentieth member, and the original members be chosen by the owner. These original members will determine a board member’s term length and the subsequent choosing process for new board members.

As the owner of this newly created organization, I, Nathan Pimental, invite any members of the Sciencemadness.org community to apply for membership in EsoCheS, for the betterment of amateur chemistry as a whole.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As most of my ideas, if you think it sucks, tell me. I've been thinking about this for a while though, it seemed necessary. The goal of this is also to give everyone who does research an ability to publish their results, regardless of prestige.

[Edited on 4-30-2015 by The Volatile Chemist]

blogfast25 - 30-4-2015 at 08:05

The (proposed?) name “Esoteric Chemist’s Society” should be enough put anyone off permanently. Just look at the dictionary definition of ‘esoteric’. In this day and age, nobody, apart from a few nutters of course, is going to be attracted to an organisation that is associated with ‘secretiveness’ and ‘closedness’, for instance. Madame Blavatsky is long dead, thankfully.

Also, if your initiative is aimed at amateurs/hobbyists the name should reflect that quite clearly, IMO.

Despite having spent a few hundred words on trying to explain the objective of this exercise, it remains far from clear to me what it is you want the ‘ECS’ to achieve.

At this point I can’t seriously dismiss the possibility of a belated April fool’s prank.


[Edited on 30-4-2015 by blogfast25]

The Volatile Chemist - 30-4-2015 at 08:08

Lol, I'm too dumb for sophisticated April fools pranks. The goal is to organize published research by amateur chemists into a database easily searchable and free to access. The SM Prepub. subforum doesn't seem very good at getting things past pre-publication.
I guess the name could use change. Any suggestions, or is it just a bad idea?


[Edited on 4-30-2015 by The Volatile Chemist]

blogfast25 - 30-4-2015 at 08:18

Any SM member can publish their results at SM. It's up to the author to choose the format of the write-up, from very formal to very informal. SM pages are widely indexed by Google and easy to find.

SM isn't very searchable but using Google's domain-specific searches greatly alleviates that problem.

What do you feel would 'ECS' improve on this situation?

Going by your 'Peppertree Labs' thingy, I think you're a bit of a dreamer.

[Edited on 30-4-2015 by blogfast25]

Etaoin Shrdlu - 30-4-2015 at 09:55

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
an organization for the collectivization of data

Oh, my head.

I also don't see what advantages this has over the sciencemadness board, unless you're intending to start a journal or chemistry hackspace.

blogfast25 - 30-4-2015 at 09:57

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
I also don't see what advantages this has over the sciencemadness board, unless you're intending to start a journal or chemistry hackspace.


That's the crux of course: what would 'ECS' do that SM isn't already doing?

The Volatile Chemist - 30-4-2015 at 11:45

Point proven, though indexing doesn't pull together what's already out there. Besides, Oelen's text only database isn't indexed by Google, and sciencemadness forum posts get less priority over adds and stores on Google.
Quote:
Going by your 'Peppertree Labs' thingy, I think you're a bit of a dreamer.

Unnecessary insulting.

blogfast25 - 30-4-2015 at 11:59

Explain what you mean by "Oelen's text only database".

You're probably confounding high Google rank with indexing: Google indexes anything that's linked to by another page. Ranking high is quite another thing but some of SM's pages actually do rank high. I regularly find my own SM posts in Google, for example.

I'm not trying to insult you: how are you going to lead 'ECS' if you're so sensitive to even mild criticism? :(

I repeat the question: 'what specifically would ECS do that SM doesn't already do?' How would it constitute an improvement over the current state of affairs?


[Edited on 30-4-2015 by blogfast25]

Loptr - 30-4-2015 at 12:01

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Point proven, though indexing doesn't pull together what's already out there. Besides, Oelen's text only database isn't indexed by Google, and sciencemadness forum posts get less priority over adds and stores on Google.
Quote:
Going by your 'Peppertree Labs' thingy, I think you're a bit of a dreamer.

Unnecessary insulting.


It's perfectly fine to be a dreamer.

If, by Rudyard Kipling (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/175772)
If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;

TVC, don't take anything that is said here to heart. I see your goal of a more structured approach to this than SM provides, where members are really members, moreso than simply having an account on a web forum. You want more legitimacy, and that is completely fine. Now, if only the nay-sayer would keep the response to constructive criticism, and not resort to ad-hominem. If you are dreamer, so what, does that mean your ideas are less valid as a general rule? (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem)

[Edited on 30-4-2015 by Loptr]

blogfast25 - 30-4-2015 at 12:05

Quote: Originally posted by Loptr  
Now, if only the nay-sayer would keep the response to constructive criticism, and not resort to ad-hominem. If you are dreamer, so what, does that mean your ideas are less valid as a general rule?


If you put the bar for ad hom that low, the expression loses all meaning, Loptr. If being a dreamer is fine, then how is it ad hom?

It would be more interesting to hear your own constructive criticism or support.

[Edited on 30-4-2015 by blogfast25]

Loptr - 30-4-2015 at 12:19

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Loptr  
Now, if only the nay-sayer would keep the response to constructive criticism, and not resort to ad-hominem. If you are dreamer, so what, does that mean your ideas are less valid as a general rule?


If you put the bar for ad hom that low, it loses all meaning, Loptr. If being a dreamer is fine, how is it ad hom?

It would be more interesting to hear your own constructive criticism or support.

[Edited on 30-4-2015 by blogfast25]


I wasn't responding to criticism of the idea, but rather criticism of the individual.

By saying "going by your peppertree labs thingy, I think you're a bit of a dreamer" in the context of a response to an idea, you are attempting to discredit the idea based on the perceived inability of someone to materialize a plan. That is typically what is intended when said in that context. That is ad hominem, so no lowering of any bars.

And it doesn't matter if it's alright to be dreamer, it obviously isn't alright to you, which why you would make that distinction. Why else make a statement like that?

[Edited on 30-4-2015 by Loptr]

The Volatile Chemist - 30-4-2015 at 12:22

I already implied that I understood there was little purpose for EsoCheS other than for the organization of data, and for structure. Try to keep it on topic, drop the Latin debate.
How was my reaction 'sensitive'? the usage of the word thingy indicates, along with your latter usage of single quotations around ECS, that your intentions were for me to react to the phrases, not let them hang as a suggestion, as it was a personal comment.

blogfast25 - 30-4-2015 at 12:41

Quote: Originally posted by Loptr  

[…] you are attempting to discredit the idea based on the perceived inability of someone to materialize a plan. That is typically what is intended when said in that context.


Let’s keep it simple before you start debating how many angels fit on the tip of a pin, shall we?

I believe the idea is indeed rubbish, based on the poor description in the OP and that Peppertree Labs is hardly a shining example of organisational skills. Nothing TVC has said so far has convinced me otherwise. That's my opinion, plain and simple.
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
[...]along with your latter usage of single quotations around ECS, that your intentions were for me to react to the phrases, not let them hang as a suggestion, as it was a personal comment.


Single quote marks are often used for mere emphasis, nothing more.

I don’t think your idea will fly but really do wish you all the best with it. :)

Loptr - 30-4-2015 at 12:51

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  

Let’s keep it simple before you start debating how many angels fit on the tip of a pin, shall we?

I believe the idea is indeed rubbish, based on the poor description in the OP and that Peppertree Labs is hardly a shining example of organisational skills. Nothing TVC has said so far has convinced me otherwise. That's my opinion, plain and simple.


You admitted to it, no cause for any further debate.

...and like I have to count the numbers of angels that can dance on a pin, everybody knows its 42. :cool:

[Edited on 30-4-2015 by Loptr]

blogfast25 - 30-4-2015 at 12:57

Quote: Originally posted by Loptr  
You admitted to it, no cause for any further debate.



I admitted to NOTHING, okay? :mad: Don't create a straw man.

Judging someone's ability to pull of a major project by the results of a past project may not be accurate but it isn't ad hominem.

[Edited on 30-4-2015 by blogfast25]

pneumatician - 1-5-2015 at 07:08

exist many "public" labs like this, but... also exist the industrial secret, so... this is ridicoulus :) nobody here publish anything you could do rich, so some labs are public and some are secret. and by "secret" you can call "esoteric", "masonry", etc

http://biocurious.org/

you see the mad science projects?

https://experiment.com/
http://scifundchallenge.org/
http://www.rockethub.com/
https://walacea.com/

blogfast25 - 1-5-2015 at 07:19

Quote: Originally posted by pneumatician  
[...] nobody here publish anything you could do rich, [...]


I don't think the proposed purpose of 'ECS' is financial.

The Volatile Chemist - 1-5-2015 at 08:16

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by pneumatician  
[...] nobody here publish anything you could do rich, [...]


I don't think the proposed purpose of 'ECS' is financial.

Just to confirm, it was an Open-Source Idea, not a make a lot of money idea. If you ever see 'PTL Labs', in the future, though, that'll be me. Maybe I am a dreamer. See you around.

Texium - 1-5-2015 at 08:49

I don't think that yet another organization is necessary. I kind of understand why you want to do this, but stuff already exists that fits the functions that you describe. Of course, SM is already a great medium to communicate with other home chemists. Also, Rador Labs, although it garnered similar criticism to this ECS when it was first proposed, is becoming more developed, doing some good, and there are plans to expand our horizons and get a more cohesive and professional front at some point. Nathan, I think that if you'd come back to Rador Labs and participate in the Skype groups more, you'd be satisfied.

aga - 1-5-2015 at 13:32

Given the very Nature of the oddbods involved in amateur Science, a Society doesn't really work too well.

I can only speak for myself, so my own relationship with Societies is not one of mutual co-operation.

Basically they tend to become power-bases for some ego or another, at which point i lose all interest in being a member - this is basic human nature, and unavoidable.

Like as not, SM is about as perfect as it gets.

Minimal control, no stringent requirements on members and little to no attempt to organise it's members.

Polvervone et all should take a moment to pat themselves on the back and accept a heartfelt Well Done from this oddbod at least.

Edit:

As for Rador - what is the Point ?

A more Youthful oriented Science Group ?
What on earth would that mean ?

I would prefer to see the talented members of Rador doing more Science, more Experiments and posting more frequently here, there or anywhere, rather than endless discussions about what the next Big Rador thing will be.

That would impress me (and i feel sure many others) much more than mere Talk or pointless competitions.

Probably impress yourselves a lot more too.

If the Rador Group is interested in Science, do some ?

If it's an interest in creating Organisations, then Politics would be more suitable, and rewarding.

[Edited on 1-5-2015 by aga]

[Edited on 1-5-2015 by aga]

Texium - 1-5-2015 at 15:10

aga, our YouTube channel is updated fairly often with new videos. Also, yes, it is a more youth oriented thing to an extent, I suppose. We formed the group with the hopes to take a more active role in promoting home chemistry. As for why we do less stuff than I'd like, well, most of us are still in school and don't have the time/money/freedom required to run such an organization quite yet. If I had a better lab, more money to spend on reagents, and wasn't having to worry about SAT's and AP tests and getting into college, I'd put out a few videos myself. Yes, I know it looks bad to have these rather vague plans and show little in the way of progress towards our goals, but you can't make a full-fledged organization appear overnight. Especially not when the members are from all around the world and can't actually collaborate for real.

I've been avoiding talking about it for the most part on here, because it is still a work-in-progress, and I know how very much some of the members such as yourself hate hearing about our "politics," so don't expect to hear any more about Rador Labs for a while. We'll keep working out the kinks though, and when it's more polished you can give it a second chance.

Zombie - 1-5-2015 at 18:11

This is an interesting thread.

Lot's of banter, and some valid points on all sides.

I can add something that might bring perspective back in.

The fella that created an internet search engine... Where is he today?
The fella that started whatever group that publishes scientific data..

The fella that started DuPont? Pittsburgh Steel? National Geographic?

They all had an idea. Those ideas became part of daily life.

Nothing wrong with having an idea, and even less so in discussing it. There is NO time frame other than your own so don't sweat other peoples criticisms regarding "what have you done lately", "when will we see something", "it already exists".

Don't sweat it. I hear stuff like this all the time when I discuss concepts or partially formed ideas. Guess what? If an idea deserves becoming reality it will manifest itself in its own time. It just happens.

I have listened to "I don't see it happening" all my life. When "IT" does happen guess who sulks off, and has nothing else to say... NaySayers!


I'm not bashing anyone here. Everyone has their own point of view. No problem...
Keep in mind that ideas create reality, reality creates experience, and experience creates new ideas.

Keep those ideas coming. We need a better reality. ;)

blogfast25 - 2-5-2015 at 10:19

With all respect, Zombie but you're not adding anything here other than the rather anodyne 'Think positive!<sup>TM</sup>'.

In the marketplace of ideas, probably less than one in ten actually make it into reality or makes any significant impact on it.

Naysayers have a function: they discourage people from blowing a lot of time/cash on ideas that have little, if any, chance of surviving in the marketplace.

I know that probably rubs against your rather woolly worldview but as Claus von Bulow said to Alan Dershowitz, "we can't all be like you, Alan." ;)

[Edited on 2-5-2015 by blogfast25]

aga - 2-5-2015 at 12:57

Negative responses also (can) have another effect : the notion of 'i'll show 'em' turns up and adds Fire to the belly, and things happen.

blogfast25 - 2-5-2015 at 13:46

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Negative responses also (can) have another effect : the notion of 'i'll show 'em' turns up and adds Fire to the belly, and things happen.


I've a feeling that applies mainly for people with your personality type! ;)

Zombie - 2-5-2015 at 13:51

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  



Naysayers have a function: they discourage people from blowing a lot of time/cash on ideas that have little, if any, chance of surviving in the marketplace.

I know that probably rubs against your rather woolly worldview but as Claus von Bulow said to Alan Dershowitz, "we can't all be like you, Alan." ;)

[Edited on 2-5-2015 by blogfast25]



I'm surprised to hear you say this Mr. Blog. :o

I had the impression you were 100% for capitalism, and would actually encourage a fella or three to throw countless thousands of dollars into the global market.

As for Alan, and Santa Claus... I can only dream a better world. ;)

Edit... To actually contribute, I think it is a fantastic idea. The experience gained from swimming up stream should decidedly teach a person a few things.

If the idea flops or fails to gain traction, so what? It's the experience, and the effort applied that really matter here. The end result??? Remains to be seen. It might just turn into something very different as the idea, complications, and realities are better understood.

My 2 bits. :cool::cool:

[Edited on 5-2-2015 by Zombie]

aga - 2-5-2015 at 13:57

OK Zomb.

Gauntlet time.

Do some Science.

I Dare you.

Zombie - 2-5-2015 at 14:09

I can make an Awesome baking soda volcano... I don't have a camera to prove it to you tho. My batteries ruptured, and reacted with the electrodes rendering it all yucky.:D

You have a point. Got it.

I'm still building my lab, building a motorcycle, raising 7 dogs, juggling a wife, and a girl friend, and running two separate businesses. To top that off I still need some Miller Time about once a week.

I have a standing order w/ Dr. Bob, and my heating apparatus is in that order... so I can't really start doing anything even if I had time.

I'm not posting much in the chemistry threads because I am learning, and don't want to muddy them up (as I did when I first started posting)

One day I will make you proud. Not today tho... :D

blogfast25 - 2-5-2015 at 15:20

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  

I had the impression you were 100% for capitalism, and would actually encourage a fella or three to throw countless thousands of dollars into the global market.



I'm an Old Leftie, Zomb. I detest this latest version of Capitalism i.e. Neoliberalism.

But that has nothing to do with this idea of TVC.

[Edited on 2-5-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 2-5-2015 at 16:06

It's all good. I understand, and still love ya!

Every yard needs a good dog. :)

[Edited on 5-3-2015 by Zombie]

Zyklon-A - 7-5-2015 at 15:18

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
If you ever see 'PTL Labs', in the future, though, that'll be me. Maybe I am a dreamer. See you around.

Wow TVC quite the forum over that?
Passive aggressive much? For shame...

blogfast25 - 7-5-2015 at 16:12

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklon-A  
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
If you ever see 'PTL Labs', in the future, though, that'll be me. Maybe I am a dreamer. See you around.

Wow TVC quite the forum over that?
Passive aggressive much? For shame...


Where did he say he quit?

Texium - 7-5-2015 at 16:42

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Zyklon-A  
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
If you ever see 'PTL Labs', in the future, though, that'll be me. Maybe I am a dreamer. See you around.

Wow TVC quite the forum over that?
Passive aggressive much? For shame...


Where did he say he quit?
He seems to have implied it, by the "see you around," but hard to tell for sure...
I bet he'll be back before too long.

Zyklon-A - 7-5-2015 at 16:43

He didn't flat-out say "I quit", but look at his Bio:
Quote:

I'm no longer an active member here at SM[...]

And his sig:
Quote:

If you Google 'The Volatile Chemist', or 'Peppertree Labs, you will find the discarded shell of an internet user.

Sounds like a quitter to me.
Not to add insult to insult or anything.

[Edited on 8-5-2015 by Zyklon-A]

Texium - 7-5-2015 at 16:48

Well damn, didn't notice that. Much more conclusive.
Still, I wouldn't be surprised if he got over it and came back. He posted here a lot and didn't seem to have a whole lot more to do.

blogfast25 - 7-5-2015 at 17:04

Fair enough. His loss as far as I'm concerned.

Zombie - 7-5-2015 at 20:01

wow. who would have thunk it.

aga - 8-5-2015 at 13:27

TVC will be back.

More action here than at Peppertree ...

blogfast25 - 8-5-2015 at 13:32

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
TVC will be back.

More action here than at Peppertree ...


"You can check out any time you like,
But you just can never leave!"

[Edited on 8-5-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 8-5-2015 at 13:42


aga - 8-5-2015 at 14:09

I have tried for that hair-do for years.

Never works.

All i get is a HeadBush.

Zombie - 8-5-2015 at 14:10

You have to drive to work with your head out the window.;)

Works for me!

blogfast25 - 8-5-2015 at 14:16

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
All i get is a HeadBush.


I thought that's what it was. AirHeadBush, in his case.

aga - 8-5-2015 at 14:17

Now i get it.

I always considered WindEeze as a hair product.