Sciencemadness Discussion Board

It finally happened, the police showed up

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j_sum1 - 14-9-2015 at 20:58

Compatible with 24/29 (at least unless your glassware has a bit of a lip). I just felt that I would get a more solid seal more easily. Also it has proved advantageous in that the longer contact surface means it is more forgiving in the case of a chip or breakage.

It is to be expected but even though I chose pretty carefully, there are still items that I would like to add to the kit. I can see that the 500mL RBFs are going to be the most used flasks. I bought some stainless steel keck clips. I really could use some traps. A parallel joint distillation adapter will help me to get full value from my graham condenser. I bought a thermometer adapter that will double as a cold finger when necessary. (Push some butane from a can into that thing and it stays nice and cool. I used this process for a sublimation the other day.) I made a lab jack. I can see a need for some glass tubing and spare thermometer adapters to fit them into. There is always stuff. But at least my lab is slowly shaping up. It has taken a year to get this far though.

NedsHead - 14-9-2015 at 21:41

I purchased the same thermometer adapter in 24/29 and I'm glad I did because the one that came with the kit is rubbish, because I have started out with a 24/29 kit I'll most likely stick with that joint size, it would be to costly to change now. my last purchase was a magnetic stirrer/hotplat off Ebay for $250 and next week I'm picking up a used fume cupboard, I cant wait to finally be able to work indoors.

Here is the stirrer


DSC_1241.jpg - 1.6MB
I don't know why it's sideways

j_sum1 - 14-9-2015 at 22:30

Nice stirrer. Colour me envious.
What kind of beaker is that? Looks like a beer mug.

NedsHead - 14-9-2015 at 22:49

it's just a 1000ml plunger type coffee pot, dime a dozen. I mostly use it for filtering large volume.

NeonPulse - 23-9-2015 at 18:58

Funny enough this story is pretty common nowadays. I've had the piggies show up at my door with exactly the same story and a photocopy of an X-ray of my neatly packaged glassware courtesy of Aus customs. They only wanted to see it was not being used for meth production. They didn't come as soon as it arrived either as though they were waiting for me to whip up a quick batch of blue and bust me red handed... Lesson: if you don't want them at your door source local products. Although now many suppliers require an EUA stating the glass won't be used illegally and these do get handed to authorities anyway. Chinese glass is inferior . After a few batches of nitric there is was a hairline crack in the top of the 1l RBF near the mouth.

Tdep - 24-9-2015 at 01:21

Glad it went well for you too Neon. That week delay is commonplace and, gotta hand it to them, kinda clever. "Oh hey no this glassware box just turned up today.. i was going to ah... give it to my grandson.. for a display... yeah." Wait a week until the iodine is on reflux and bam. But another somewhat positive story thanks Neon.

KesterDraconis - 25-9-2015 at 06:31

Well, I'm feeling the heat now. Nobody has showed up at my door, but recently, in my area, the police have begun a serious crack down on drugs. You see them going from house to house in camouflage uniforms, black masks and helmets, bullet proof vests, and assault rifles, making arrests and searching homes. Sirens are blaring every now and then, but they've been doing it mostly quietly so they can sneak up. I'm sure most of its being done at night as well, where I don't see it (but, having literally seen them walking up and down the side walk of a city block where their operation was going on, I don't think they care). Since I know someone in local law enforcement I asked him, and he confirmed that this is happening, and that its actually the joint effort of local police, state police, and departments form around the area.

I don't make illegal drugs, but their is the energetics factor, and the fact that I doubt any of the police officers around here (and in this operation), would take kindly to "its a home lab!", since in their minds lab means meth. Besides, I would really blame them if they busted down the floor, found my glass ware and arrested me. After all, they've been working nonstop combing the whole town like this. I mean, I I were one of them, I wouldn't really care about "stupid excuses" while being that tired.

aga - 25-9-2015 at 10:55

Pre-empt it and go and talk to the police before they bust your door down.

jtate - 4-10-2015 at 09:53

My friend, you are very naive.

The police act like your their friend because they want you to co-operate. They had a warrant in their back pocket because they will use force if necessary.

They probably had an audio recording or body camera on which you did not notice. In any case ever wonder why cops always do things with at least two officers present? It is for evidential purposes in court.

Trust me, even if they do not do a follow-up raid, your name is added to a database somewhere and your name will never be taken off it. And there is no positive outcome from being on that database.

jtate - 4-10-2015 at 10:12

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
100% on board w/ Blogfast.

What is in the US constitution, and without a doubt Aus, Great Brit, and MOST other free nations???

Innocent until PROVEN guilty. Suspicion of impending loitering is NOT a crime. Possession of Lab Glass is NOT a crime (in this case).
Grounds for a warrant? I would go ahead, and ask to see this warrant today, and SUE THE SHORTS OFF OF THEM!!! As has been said here already. You're talking 100g's at least to settle.


Quaint ideas of innocent until proven guilty and "free nations" but the US has the highest incarceration rates in the world.

And the reality of the innocent until proven guilty concept is that it isn't true. Most governments have the power to imprison under the catch-all term "security", some of them indefinitely without trial.

Also, read up on the Open Letter Series: Working with Dstl where a former Dstl scientist with an ongoing research contract and security clearance got backstabbed by Dstl/police/Crown Prosecution Service. E.g.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=63837

At the scientist's remand hearing whose transcript I have reviewed, the police/CPS basically lied to the magistrates that they found bombs in the scientist's house. The magistrates of course assume the police/CPS are telling the truth, and approved custody. Only later when the forensics lab showed they were not bombs, was the scientist released from prison. But everyone has forgotten the lies the police/CPS peddled to the magistrates to approve custody.

Little_Ghost_again - 8-10-2015 at 03:11

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
I don't want to ring the dinner bell but I'm sure you all know that LEO's of the world read these forums.

There's one thing I can't wrap my head around. IF glass-ware is NOT illegal there how on earth could they get a warrant?

That is a presumption of Guilt.
They can suspect anything, and everything under the sun but they have to have legal grounds for a warrant. NOT suspicion.

Either the cop lied or your jurisdiction has a rouge judge. For some reason I suspect both... Color me Jade (ed)

Glad to hear it went well, unless they gave you a lap top, and you're really posting from prison... Knock twice (if you are in prison), and we'll bust you out. ;)

In the UK you are utterly wrong, we have many laws that when arrested you are arrested on suspicion of [ insert crime here], in my own experience not very long ago after school, I was out in the park with some friends, they were kicking a ball about and I had to watch as I wasnt feeling great.
As you may know I take drugs for a serious illness and on the day I had in my wallet 2 pills of oxycontin (40mg each) and 2 x 5mg Diazepam (I can fit at times so also carry a rectal diazepam tube), I didnt have them in the main packet as its bulky and could make me a target for mugging (oxycontin is a bit of a hit at the moment here), So I take the label with my name on and put what I think I might need in a baggy and stuff in my wallet.
Two police approached us and asked to search us, I saw no reason why not and agreed. BIG MISTAKE, I was arrested on SUSPICION of possessing a class A drug or controlled substance.
I was lucky as it was around 6pm by the time I got the police station and the duty doctor was called and there in 15 mins.
My parents were informed and also turned up at roughly the same time.
The really silly thing was they brought my main box of pills that now has no label on as I carry it with me (cut off with the box label). So duty doc confirms the tablets by looking in the BNF and being scotland he calls my GP (doctor) who confirms yes I am prescribed the tablets.
BUT I have the box with no label on confiscated from my parents as it dosnt have a prescription label!!! I was released with no charge after roughly an hour. So in the UK we have loads of offenses that start with the phrase 'On Suspicion Of' no proof needed to be arrested, no proof needed to be charged for many things, as some things you can be charged with include.....
You are charged with the offense of being suspected of carrying/possessing...... They leave it to the courts to sort out now.

iExplore - 27-11-2015 at 04:49

Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again  
So in the UK we have loads of offenses that start with the phrase 'On Suspicion Of' no proof needed to be arrested, no proof needed to be charged for many things, as some things you can be charged with include.....
You are charged with the offense of being suspected of carrying/possessing...... They leave it to the courts to sort out now.


It's a bit more complicated than that.

I can't think of a single offence that is purely a "suspicion" offence. You are arrested on suspicion because arrest is part of the investigation process in the UK. It requires actual or suspected involvement in a crime AND reasonable grounds for believing the arrest is necessary.

Being arrested also triggers certain safeguards, including time limits for detention etc. Being arrested can sometimes be beneficial both to you (because of the protection the status brings) and to the police (it gives them further powers including warrantless searches).

You wouldn't get charged on sus, The charge would be for the actual commission of the offence - because, after all, the allegation is that you did actually commit it.

Whether or not you are charged is a decision made by a different body called the CPS. They will only charge you if certain conditions are met: likelihood of a successful prosecution and whether prosecution would be in the public interest. If there's no evidence, they are not going to charge you. Heck, if they can't even show a prima facie case, they're not going to make it past half time anyway and the prosecutor will find the judge tearing them a new arsehole for bringing it to court.

j_sum1 - 5-12-2015 at 19:54

Ok. I got my visit today. I was at the movies with my family and my FIL answered the door. They said that they would come back and turned up just at the same time that I did.

I took them directly to my lab, It was a mess since it is a shared space with storage, gardening, paint and Christmas decorations. I haven't done any significant chemistry for a few weeks but have made some acquisitions and so there was crap all over the bench.

The "offending" glassware was still in its bubble wrap.

I was really unimpressed with how little they wanted to look at. They wanted to see that package and nothing else. They asked about the disassembled battery and erlenmeyers on the bench and that was it. They didn't even look at my chemicals or any of the other significant quantity of glassware that was in boxes on the shelves.

They accepted my story on why I had a lab and informed me that they would take a note of my details so that if I had any future glassware orders I would not get another visit.

I made them sign my lab book though. I figured that I should at least get a souvenir.

[Edit]
The whole visit was less than five minutes.
One of the cops walked off with a sizable chunk of dog poo on his shoe. I guess everyone gets a souvenir!

[Edited on 6-12-2015 by j_sum1]

2015-12-06 13.28.36.jpg - 248kB

TheAlchemistPirate - 5-12-2015 at 20:09

That's nice to hear j_sum. In my county home drug labs(for methamphetamine) are everywhere. There are more estimated drug labs here than any other county in this area of the country. I really need to start a lab notebook to hopefully help when the police finally get around to me.

Hawkguy - 5-12-2015 at 20:43

Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate  
That's nice to hear j_sum. In my county home drug labs(for methamphetamine) are everywhere. There are more estimated drug labs here than any other county in this area of the country. I really need to start a lab notebook to hopefully help when the police finally get around to me.


If you like gardening better then meth, come up here to canada

TheAlchemistPirate - 5-12-2015 at 22:22

Quote: Originally posted by Hawkguy  

If you like gardening better then meth, come up here to canada


I'm not sure what you meant by this. I don't make any kind of illegal drugs and don't ever plan to. I meant that there are labs around our area that do and I might be seen as part of that group. Nevermind if you meant something else.

Tdep - 7-12-2015 at 01:26

Good to see another happy ending story, thanks for sharing jsum_1! Sounds like virtually identical events as to me, good to know the police are consistent across the different states.
The writing in the lab notebook was a great idea, I would have asked that if I'd thought of it.

j_sum1 - 7-12-2015 at 01:45

Yeah. I figured some time ago that the lab journal was my symbol of legitimacy. It was always my plan to get them to sign it if they turned up. Actually, it is better than that. I have the business card of the senior detective constable and I glued that in as well. Now, if ever I get neighbours asking questions or any issues of any kind, I can pull out the journal and show that the police have checked out my lab.

Besides, it is kind of cool to have an entry like that in the journal. :)

Little_Ghost_again - 2-1-2016 at 10:06

Quote: Originally posted by iExplore  
Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again  
So in the UK we have loads of offenses that start with the phrase 'On Suspicion Of' no proof needed to be arrested, no proof needed to be charged for many things, as some things you can be charged with include.....
You are charged with the offense of being suspected of carrying/possessing...... They leave it to the courts to sort out now.


It's a bit more complicated than that.

I can't think of a single offence that is purely a "suspicion" offence. You are arrested on suspicion because arrest is part of the investigation process in the UK. It requires actual or suspected involvement in a crime AND reasonable grounds for believing the arrest is necessary.

Being arrested also triggers certain safeguards, including time limits for detention etc. Being arrested can sometimes be beneficial both to you (because of the protection the status brings) and to the police (it gives them further powers including warrantless searches).

You wouldn't get charged on sus, The charge would be for the actual commission of the offence - because, after all, the allegation is that you did actually commit it.

Whether or not you are charged is a decision made by a different body called the CPS. They will only charge you if certain conditions are met: likelihood of a successful prosecution and whether prosecution would be in the public interest. If there's no evidence, they are not going to charge you. Heck, if they can't even show a prima facie case, they're not going to make it past half time anyway and the prosecutor will find the judge tearing them a new arsehole for bringing it to court.



Sorry missed this!

No most offences are charged as on suspicion of, the reason being the legal presumption is still (just about anyway) INNOCENT until proven guilty. But its even more slightly complicated, forget my case as its in Scotland and different again.

But in England there is Illegal and Unlawful (we do legal shit in school in a class called citizenship!!), only 4 crimes are Unlawful they include Murder and theft, I forget the others, These are crimes, ALL other offenses are statutory instruments and therefore not unlawful but illegal.

So if your done for Murder you would be charged with something like..... you are charged with the offense that you did unlawfully murder XyZ on the [insert date] blah blah blah.

With other crimes you are charged with...... You are charged on suspicion that contravened section (whatever) blah blah. As I said you cant be charged as guilty as you havnt gone to court yet, so it has to be on suspicion of or sometimes the wording is slightly different but same kind of thing.

Otherwise you could walk into a magistrates court and appeal if found guilty simply based on the fact that you were presumed guilty even before the hearing.

Scotland is even worse and way more complicated.

Hawkguy - 2-1-2016 at 17:46

In my case, since I was pretty prepared for a police peekaboo, the lab was free of any offending material. I dont make drugs, but stuff like strong acids, iodine, or bleach can often be taken the wrong way. Anyway. They spent more than half the time looking for a 'second lab', a smaller, more criminal setup. Apparently that isnt uncommon, and theres been recent cases up here where after a preliminary inspection, a second setup with bombs or drugs has been found. Just found it odd that them poking around my bedroom, washroom, etc, took time away from the inspection of the actual lab in which they could have potentially compiled evidence.

Also, when you let the first two guys in, and they talk to you in the garage, two more that I didn't know about also came in, and searched the house upstairs. Well, not like a top to bottom strip search of the hous . But they would walk around and look in drawers, closets, under laundry, etc, pretending to loiter, or be lost in the house. It gives the impression of teenagers who attempt to inconspicuously browse a corner store, whilst stealing.

[Edited on 3-1-2016 by Hawkguy]

[Edited on 3-1-2016 by Hawkguy]

Hawkguy - 2-1-2016 at 17:56

Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate  
Quote: Originally posted by Hawkguy  

If you like gardening better then meth, come up here to canada


I'm not sure what you meant by this. I don't make any kind of illegal drugs and don't ever plan to. I meant that there are labs around our area that do and I might be seen as part of that group. Nevermind if you meant something else.


I was joking that if you don't like hard drugs, "chemicals", many Canadian farmers offer a 'greener' alternative to treat your ailments. Yeah I know you don't make drugs, and I see what you're saying. The cooks, no matter how small a portion of the home chemist population, give all of us a bad name.

[Edited on 3-1-2016 by Hawkguy]

JJay - 2-1-2016 at 18:05

I do most of my work in a public co-op type location where I have actually met and held conversations with FBI agents. A couple of days ago, I left some flasks, adapters, and condensers out to make them available to the public, and when I got in yesterday, I discovered that someone had been researching how to make ecstasy on one of our computers.... Ironically, this discovery occurred as I was discussing chemistry with one of our members who actually is a member of law enforcement. I obviously don't have the necessary chemicals for that, and I don't know who it was (nor do I really care--probably a high school student), but I hope whoever it was enjoys the selection of small test tubes that will be available in the future.

Hawkguy - 2-1-2016 at 18:09

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
I do most of my work in a public co-op type location where I have actually met and held conversations with FBI agents. A couple of days ago, I left some flasks, adapters, and condensers out to make them available to the public, and when I got in yesterday, I discovered that someone had been researching how to make ecstasy on one of our computers.... Ironically, this discovery occurred as I was discussing chemistry with one of our members who actually is a member of law enforcement. I obviously don't have the necessary chemicals for that, and I don't know who it was (nor do I really care--probably a high school student), but I hope whoever it was enjoys the selection of small test tubes that will be available in the future.


That was one of the most beautiful things I have read on the forum today, your response that is. Is this lika a community center, or educational thing attached to a corporation/ university?

By the way, I can beat your example of high schooler stupidity. At my school, some grade 11 or 12s were doing a lab in the Bio room. I dont know why they didnt turn off the bunsen burner gas, or why it wasnt lighted in the first place, but a hazmat unit had to come and pull two unconscious kids out of the room. They were taken to a hospital. What geniuses.

[Edited on 3-1-2016 by Hawkguy]

JJay - 2-1-2016 at 18:16

It's a hackerspace. We have some university affiliations, but it is open to the community.

We have been talking about putting in barbed fittings for natural gas, but I think it's a better idea to hook them to propane tanks.

[Edited on 3-1-2016 by JJay]

arkoma - 2-1-2016 at 20:12

Bravo j_sum. My LOGBOOK has saved me twice when the coppers show up "looking for the meth lab". Nevada and California. I *sigh* expect them here in Arkansas.

*edit* Folks, a BOUND notebook written in INK is important two-fold.

1) As drunk as you are, if you scrawl it all down you can repeat it, even if it is a S.N.A.F.U.

2) The Police Clan Lab team told me, "You guys that keep notes ain't the ones we have to worry about."

[Edited on 1-3-2016 by arkoma]

JJay - 2-1-2016 at 21:03

Oh and I do of course keep a lab notebook.

j_sum1 - 2-1-2016 at 21:26

Quote: Originally posted by arkoma  
Bravo j_sum. My LOGBOOK has saved me twice when the coppers show up "looking for the meth lab". Nevada and California. I *sigh* expect them here in Arkansas.

*edit* Folks, a BOUND notebook written in INK is important two-fold.

1) As drunk as you are, if you scrawl it all down you can repeat it, even if it is a S.N.A.F.U.

2) The Police Clan Lab team told me, "You guys that keep notes ain't the ones we have to worry about."

[Edited on 1-3-2016 by arkoma]

I also pasted in the detective's business card.
Now, that's my kind of scrapbooking!

Texium - 2-1-2016 at 21:52

I have a lab notebook, but so often I forget to write stuff down, so then I sit down for an hour trying to recollect all of the things I've done in the lab over the past month and fill out three to four pages of solid writing. Really it's more like a journal than am official lab notebook, as I write in paragraphs and tend to meander into unrelated topics, but I think it would still be helpful to have in the event of a police raid, and it will be fun to look back on in the future.

JJay - 3-4-2016 at 11:20

I can't say for sure, but I think law enforcement may have brought out a canine team a few days ago. I saw a husky with a short looped leash in the style that they use on police dogs wandering around on the public right of way next to my lab. It looked just like a TSA dog, and it approached me but didn't sniff me for more than a brief instant like TSA dog. The owner, who had apparently just let him out of his car, about 20 feet away, called him back but didn't look at me or acknowledge me in any way before driving off. Who knows... maybe he was just rudely letting his dog use the facilities, but it's a strange place for that. I've been doing some experiments with some pretty complex apparatus and OTC chemicals (including lithium batteries), and a lot of people have seen them, and I can see how that could attract some attention. Obviously, I don't have anything illegal, so it wasn't too concerning.

Oh and the reason I mention this: Someone who identified himself as a government security contractor did stop by today and asked for a tour (my lab is in a hackerspace, so that's ok). He didn't seem to be very interested in membership and had a lot of unusual questions about explosives. I got his business card in case I want to teach any classes.



[Edited on 3-4-2016 by JJay]

aga - 3-4-2016 at 14:07

I had to google what a 'hackerspace' is.

So your lab is in a shared space where Other People come and go (through your lab) as they please ?

If so, Weird concept.

WGTR - 3-4-2016 at 14:37

I wouldn't be too concerned about "government security contractors". He's most likely a civilian working on a project that involves energetics, and was interested in what you're doing. That is, unless he had a federal ID.

Darkstar - 3-4-2016 at 15:21

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
I had to google what a 'hackerspace' is.

So your lab is in a shared space where Other People come and go (through your lab) as they please ?

If so, Weird concept.


The presence of cigarette butts and empty beer cans are a strong indicator that aga has used your hackerspace recently.

Loptr - 3-4-2016 at 17:16

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
I can't say for sure, but I think law enforcement may have brought out a canine team a few days ago. I saw a husky with a short looped leash in the style that they use on police dogs wandering around on the public right of way next to my lab. It looked just like a TSA dog, and it approached me but didn't sniff me for more than a brief instant like TSA dog. The owner, who had apparently just let him out of his car, about 20 feet away, called him back but didn't look at me or acknowledge me in any way before driving off. Who knows... maybe he was just rudely letting his dog use the facilities, but it's a strange place for that. I've been doing some experiments with some pretty complex apparatus and OTC chemicals (including lithium batteries), and a lot of people have seen them, and I can see how that could attract some attention. Obviously, I don't have anything illegal, so it wasn't too concerning.

Oh and the reason I mention this: Someone who identified himself as a government security contractor did stop by today and asked for a tour (my lab is in a hackerspace, so that's ok). He didn't seem to be very interested in membership and had a lot of unusual questions about explosives. I got his business card in case I want to teach any classes.



[Edited on 3-4-2016 by JJay]


Being a "government contractor", and working for the company that currently has the contract to run the TSA's scanning program, including the X-ray, sample analyzers for drugs and explosives, body scanners, and full body scanners, I would have to say anyone identifying themselves as a "government security contractor" is likely nobody that either was interested in what you where doing, afraid of what they saw you doing and wanted to see your reaction to their attempt to scare you, or was simply just wanted to sound more official with regards to their questions.

The authorities are not going to try to scare you, or even bring the government or security into the discussion when making contact. They will try and be average joe shmoe that is just like you, and have something in common. They want to get evidence that can be taken to court to possibly stop you from being able to continue your hobby. Hence, the "connection" and "similarity" approaches, as you are more likely to dish out the real goods during contact.

It's possible that they did work for a contracting company, and perhaps, took interest in the fact you were doing what you are doing.

[Edited on 4-4-2016 by Loptr]

JJay - 3-4-2016 at 18:53

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
I had to google what a 'hackerspace' is.

So your lab is in a shared space where Other People come and go (through your lab) as they please ?

If so, Weird concept.


I have a locked cabinet for storing chemicals and 3-neck flasks. But yeah, pretty much.

JJay - 3-4-2016 at 19:34

Quote: Originally posted by Loptr  


Being a "government contractor", and working for the company that currently has the contract to run the TSA's scanning program, including the X-ray, sample analyzers for drugs and explosives, body scanners, and full body scanners, I would have to say anyone identifying themselves as a "government security contractor" is likely nobody that either was interested in what you where doing, afraid of what they saw you doing and wanted to see your reaction to their attempt to scare you, or was simply just wanted to sound more official with regards to their questions.

The authorities are not going to try to scare you, or even bring the government or security into the discussion when making contact. They will try and be average joe shmoe that is just like you, and have something in common. They want to get evidence that can be taken to court to possibly stop you from being able to continue your hobby. Hence, the "connection" and "similarity" approaches, as you are more likely to dish out the real goods during contact.

It's possible that they did work for a contracting company, and perhaps, took interest in the fact you were doing what you are doing.

[Edited on 4-4-2016 by Loptr]


He didn't give me the business card for his contracting company or say exactly what he did for them other than teach classes occasionally... he gave me one for his small business, and I didn't ask a lot of questions since I don't hire government contractors.

I agree that the government probably wouldn't send in a security contractor identifying himself as such to snoop around or intimidate. I am pretty darn sure that dog was a law enforcement dog of some variety though.

macckone - 4-4-2016 at 09:23

In my experience, law enforcement visits fall into three categories.
1) hostile and involve shouting and guns drawn but can become friendly
if you aren't hostile and there is nothing there for them to arrest you over.
2) friendly where they always give you a business card that includes
their agency and often their supervisors phone number. Note that
friendly can include some level of intimidation because that is how
they 'achieve compliance'.
3) covert where they pretend not to have anything to do with law enforcement.

The first two are much less scary (at least to me) than the third as you
know what your rights are.

Chiron - 4-4-2016 at 12:08

I understand the ice problem in Australia but even so, due process is due process. What's wrong with the state of civil rights when a warrant can be obtained without due cause or evidence? In the U.S. we have Constitutional due process against unreasonable search and seizure, but even so we now have police kicking people's doors in for anything at all. My friend got his car searched at a road block because a cop got a phone warrant from a judge, and they were doing it to many cars in line. No due process at all. Just blank warrants with a judge's signature already on it, and they fill in the blank.

Searching someone's home because a chem set came through customs is because of how hobby chemistry is perceived, not just the ice problem. When you tell someone you enjoy doing chemistry at home the first thing they joke about is if you're making explosives or drugs.

Also LEOs have quotas to fill and I guess searching the homes of teenagers who enjoy doing chemistry is a way to keep getting funding.

chemrox - 4-4-2016 at 14:03

You are not required to explain glassware purchases. If you feel compelled to speak (ill advised) say you're selling on ebay. I got totally zonked on solvents decanting them during a rain storm and had a visit. Since I was feeling guilty and stupid I answered as above. What kind of chemistry was I doing? Environmental of course. However, I do have a pharmacy license and that allowed me to reply whereas had I been sober my standard reply would have been, "I prefer not to answer questions." No search warrant .. no cause.. and why would someone who actually does chemistry make meth? It's a stupid synthesis (15 methods I know of) and utterly no challenge. The unfortunates that use the shit are dying from it. The only conceivable excuse would be to provide a less lethal higher quality product as a service to the freaks.

arkoma - 4-4-2016 at 14:48

Quote: Originally posted by Darkstar  


The presence of cigarette butts and empty beer cans are a strong indicator that aga has used your hackerspace recently.



ROFL

macckone - 6-4-2016 at 20:24

Quote: Originally posted by chemrox  
You are not required to explain glassware purchases.

This is only true in some jurisdictions.
In texas, not having answered this question on a form before ordering said glassware is a felony.
In Australia my understanding is you are required to answer questions regarding certain items but not others and it varies by jurisdiction.
other countries you have to fill out forms to purchase items like 12% hydrogen peroxide and just a record of someone with the same name importing it is probable cause with no warrant under terrorism statutes.
In california certain chemicals are considered an immediate danger automatically eliminating a need to get a warrant for public safety.
In drug searches in the USA a suspicious odor is sufficient for an immediate search without a warrant as drugs can be easily discarded, but the evidence may get thrown out by a judge.

Loptr - 7-4-2016 at 03:10

A warrant is alway required, so one will be in hand when your door comes off its hinges. There are exceptions like public view through a window or the belief and justification that it was an existencial circumstance where a life was on the line, but they will lose the ability to take anything they find that is against the law into court with them to prosecute you. So yo better believe they will have a warrant, as too many cases have been screwed up because of that very reason. Not to mention the district attorney would have a chat with the chief of police, and next thing you know, you're gone, indefinite desk duty, or following the horses around because you chose not to get a warrant.

:)

(I am taking this police academy thing with my city because I have no life and my wife originally made me, but its actually turned out to be pretty cool. Oh, I could so turn that place on its head, and have so many ideas how they could be more effective and efficient with regards to techniques and technologies, etc., but I am not so sure I want to do that, especially when talking about the technologies I have produced. No one wants a big brother local police department.... but I would be awesome lol)

chemrox - 7-4-2016 at 09:25

I should have mentioned I was talking about the US not TX or CA. Australia is not really a free country if there is such a thing anymore. The Brits watch everything you do. Like old puritan communities in parts of the US. Pacific Grove, CA once had a law requiring one's house shades and curtains to be partially open. GB has cameras everywhere and cops to monitor them all day and night. I won't be going there. Even Germany during the Reich wasn't that intrusive... well maybe not. In my state odor is not sufficient ground to search but they will if there are other suspicious indicators. There are occasional incidents with people making or storing pyrotechnics. When one of these blows the schoolmarms get busy. Meth labs are pretty obvious. The people are flaky (not like in the '60's) and identify themselves as freaks any number of ways. It' a good idea to check local and state regs and try to comply. Since the whole ugly "precursor" thing got started there are avenues to getting legal with them in most places (not including CA and TX). In my state one can obtain a precursor license to cover Meam, I2, ether, acetone, NaOH (can you believe this shit?), etc. In other words if it's a chemical by any schoolmarm definition it's a precursor). My license doesn't cover lysergic acid or ergotamine. It does cover 3,4,5-trimethoxy benzaldehyde and other actual precursors. In other words if it's on a DEA list of no allowable quantities the license doesn't help. I'm still puzzled why state cops would know about a customs matter. However just because someone sends you something doesn't mean you ordered it or have to accept it. Deny everything and refuse to open packages if requested to do so. Always say you should ask your attorney before doing anything. At least if they push it and arrest you, you've asserted your rights and will get out of it if you stick to your guns and refuse to help make the case against you. People get in trouble when they feel guilty and try to explain. Nearly all criminal convictions are the result of people "cooperating."
One more thing: in my state giving false information to the cops is a crime. But you're never required to talk to the cops. For example saying, "I don't know why that was sent to me and I want to talk with an attorney.." would be legal and advisable. Something shows up at your address with cops in tow doesn't mean you ordered it. How would you know? You might have ordered it and you might think it's something you ordered but without opening it and reviewing the packing slip you really don't know. The packing slip is not enough. Consider there are pill addicts that order drugs online all the time. Some of these get confiscated but usually there's no effort to prosecute the would be recipient because he hasn't received it. Succesful prosecutions require cooperation in these cases. Don't *ever* cooperate. There was a bee on the old alt.chem.drugs listserve that talked his ass off and went to prison for 10 years. His story is on lyceaum or erowid somewhere. He called himself, Eleusius. His story is a model of what not to do. He was guilty as hell but he could have gotten out of it. Find the story and read it. As far as TX is concerned I'd get whatever glassware permissions are required and be damned sure I wasn't doing anything that wouldn't pass an impromptu inspection. This is not a drug forum and making drugs is illegal anywhere. So whatever you make be sure it isn't on a list. Explosives or the material to make them are asking for trouble unless you get pyro license.

[Edited on 7-4-2016 by chemrox]

arkoma - 7-4-2016 at 10:12

Ah, the daze. Eleusis, Zwitterion, *sigh*. Volunteer State?

*edit* OFF TOPIC I had a daggum Amstrad PC with TWO, count 'em, TWO 5 and quarter floppy drives and 512k memory with a 8088 intel but my prize possesion back then was my acoustically coupled modem. My first "hard card" was 10 megabytes and I wondered how the fuck I'd ever fill it up.

ON TOPIC:

Read about Strike if ya want to know what NOT to do. Don't give interviews to Dateline at your chem company with a damn monitor in the background with a BEE on it fer chrissake!

[Edited on 4-7-2016 by arkoma]

aga - 7-4-2016 at 11:12

You had a co-processor too ?!?

Jammy git.

Edit:

I'd only have had one for the nerd-cred, not cos i would appreciate it for any maths tasks.

[Edited on 7-4-2016 by aga]

Loptr - 8-4-2016 at 00:32

Man, you two need to clean the cobwebs out of your ears. ;)

Loptr - 8-4-2016 at 00:42

Quote: Originally posted by chemrox  
I should have mentioned I was talking about the US not TX or CA. Australia is not really a free country if there is such a thing anymore. The Brits watch everything you do. Like old puritan communities in parts of the US. Pacific Grove, CA once had a law requiring one's house shades and curtains to be partially open. GB has cameras everywhere and cops to monitor them all day and night. I won't be going there. Even Germany during the Reich wasn't that intrusive... well maybe not. In my state odor is not sufficient ground to search but they will if there are other suspicious indicators. There are occasional incidents with people making or storing pyrotechnics. When one of these blows the schoolmarms get busy. Meth labs are pretty obvious. The people are flaky (not like in the '60's) and identify themselves as freaks any number of ways. It' a good idea to check local and state regs and try to comply. Since the whole ugly "precursor" thing got started there are avenues to getting legal with them in most places (not including CA and TX). In my state one can obtain a precursor license to cover Meam, I2, ether, acetone, NaOH (can you believe this shit?), etc. In other words if it's a chemical by any schoolmarm definition it's a precursor). My license doesn't cover lysergic acid or ergotamine. It does cover 3,4,5-trimethoxy benzaldehyde and other actual precursors. In other words if it's on a DEA list of no allowable quantities the license doesn't help. I'm still puzzled why state cops would know about a customs matter. However just because someone sends you something doesn't mean you ordered it or have to accept it. Deny everything and refuse to open packages if requested to do so. Always say you should ask your attorney before doing anything. At least if they push it and arrest you, you've asserted your rights and will get out of it if you stick to your guns and refuse to help make the case against you. People get in trouble when they feel guilty and try to explain. Nearly all criminal convictions are the result of people "cooperating."
One more thing: in my state giving false information to the cops is a crime. But you're never required to talk to the cops. For example saying, "I don't know why that was sent to me and I want to talk with an attorney.." would be legal and advisable. Something shows up at your address with cops in tow doesn't mean you ordered it. How would you know? You might have ordered it and you might think it's something you ordered but without opening it and reviewing the packing slip you really don't know. The packing slip is not enough. Consider there are pill addicts that order drugs online all the time. Some of these get confiscated but usually there's no effort to prosecute the would be recipient because he hasn't received it. Succesful prosecutions require cooperation in these cases. Don't *ever* cooperate. There was a bee on the old alt.chem.drugs listserve that talked his ass off and went to prison for 10 years. His story is on lyceaum or erowid somewhere. He called himself, Eleusius. His story is a model of what not to do. He was guilty as hell but he could have gotten out of it. Find the story and read it. As far as TX is concerned I'd get whatever glassware permissions are required and be damned sure I wasn't doing anything that wouldn't pass an impromptu inspection. This is not a drug forum and making drugs is illegal anywhere. So whatever you make be sure it isn't on a list. Explosives or the material to make them are asking for trouble unless you get pyro license.

[Edited on 7-4-2016 by chemrox]


Yes, absolutely, never respond to a direction from someone delivering a package with following said action.

The problem with chemicals and other things of that nature is they will be more likely to pursue you considering you might be manufacturing, while a pill addict is a dime a dozen. If you order marijuana or other drug to be shipped into the country and it gets caught up in customs, you might get someone dropping by to either attempt a controlled delivery, but in all likelihood I would imagine the most you would receive is a nastygram. If the same things happend with that egotamine tartrate, you better believe their foot would be up your ass first chance they had.

Also, nearly all criminal convictions occur after the commission of an actual crime, so while you do have to fight for yourself to ensure you aren't cast in poor light, there is still a good chance you can prove your innocence. I would have said differently a while back, but I have had a new found relationship with the police department since my wife has made me begin a citizens police academy program they offer because I work too much and need to get out of the house. I also have a newfound respect for them, and will be going on a ride along with the narcotics division here in the next couple of weeks. I have gotten to see a lot, and while there are a lot of rocks that I have met, and a few of them in the narcotics division, I have been pleasantly surprised. Tonight I was able to do "training" with the K-9 division--that was awesome!!! In fact, my hands still smell like marijuana from the towels used to train the dogs; all the other main drugs were there too, but the smelliest was definitely the marijuana. Next week is police firearms training at a shooting range located on a local Army base. :cool:

I will be eligible to volunteer with them after completion of the program, and plan to do so, simply because I have had such a good time.

[Edited on 8-4-2016 by Loptr]

a nitrogen rich explosive - 24-4-2016 at 09:40

@Tdep

What variety of perchlorates?

(Viz. what do you think the UK police would say if they found 100 grams of heptanitropentane hidden in a barn...)

Yay, 10km/s high explosives!!

NedsHead - 24-4-2016 at 16:24

Quote: Originally posted by chemrox  
Always say you should ask your attorney before doing anything. At least if they push it and arrest you, you've asserted your rights and will get out of it if you stick to your guns and refuse to help make the case against you.[Edited on 7-4-2016 by chemrox]


I would add to this by first stating that you would like it noted for the record that you are 100% willing to comply and assist them with the investigation, but I would like my lawyer to be present for any further questioning, be sure to remain tight lipped and don't fall for any of their baited questions until your lawyer is present

a nitrogen rich explosive - 29-4-2016 at 11:09

I do really need to start keeping a better lab notebook.

What would the police think if they found a lab notebook full of experimental primary explosives?

aga - 29-4-2016 at 11:28

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  

What would the police think if they found a lab notebook full of experimental primary explosives?

They might , ahem, Bang! you up !

a nitrogen rich explosive - 30-4-2016 at 10:18

Oh dear...

My popcorn is indeed an energetic material. I use 300 grams of it as a primary explosive.

alive&kickin - 20-5-2016 at 22:04

Loptr, prove my innocence! You've got to be kidding! No way in hell would I stoop so low! Someone proves my guilt, lets me go, or has a real good lawsuit against them from the sleaziest lawyer I can find that's looking for a big payday. Sorry for the rant, but one thing that really burns me is police or other law enforcement thinking they're above the law and it's up to me to prove I've done nothing wrong. Don't get me wrong, they're not all like this but a few bad ones leave a bad taste in your mouth for all of them.

j_sum1 - 29-5-2016 at 17:06

Got another visit last night. Thoroughly annoying. It couldn't have come at a more inconvenient time.

We are selling our house and have been working hard all weekend to get it ready for real estate agent photos today and open home next weekend. That involved sorting and packing half of our stuff in the garage, copious amounts of cleaning, and lots of painting and repairs. All this while wrangling kids. I had just put in a 12 hour day with another six to go -- the second such day in a row. I was surrounded by packing boxes and delocalised furniture. There are tools all over the place. I have five different colours of paint on me and dust and plaster in my hair and eyes. The shed is chaos -- lab stuff pushed to one side and painting gear, power tools and gardening equipment littered all over the place. And these guys have some questions about a glass order that I made that I can hardly remember in the circumstances. It seems that a Dean Stark trap looks like it is the kind of thing a drug lab might want and so it got stopped at customs.

I took them to my lab, made them step over the lawnmower, showed them the tin and magnesium in my element collection, told them my story (which they already knew), listened to them swear for a while and told them what a Dean Stark trap was. They all but told me I was an idiot for being interested in chemistry and told me that I should make purchases through my place of work (which I am not allowed to do). They warned me about buying any more glassware -- especially splash heads and condensers. They said that the DS trap looked like a meth pipe (with a tap??) and when I expressed my incredulity they informed me that the #%#@&! meth heads will use a light bulb if they need to. (At which point I thought, but didn't say, "Why are you guys hassling me and not the people who buy light bulbs? The problem is not the glassware -- that is incidental to the issue.")

Anyway, the long and short of it is that they will release my Dean Stark and even though they have identified me as one of the good guys I can expect a visit every time they x-ray anything I have purchased. I apologised for the chaos that is moving house time and walked them past the drop-saw that was sitting in the doorway and said goodbye.


It was mid evening on a Sunday night when they came around, for goodness' sake.
More than a little irked I am.

macckone - 29-5-2016 at 17:25

At least in your country they are civilized enough to knock. In the land of the free they just knock the door down and trash the place.

diddi - 29-5-2016 at 23:00

lucky you. j_sum the recalcitrant :)

j_sum1 - 30-5-2016 at 15:09

Addendum

My Dean Stark arrived yesterday. Looks sweet. Not that I have an immediate use for it -- I can't see that I will be doing any chemistry for a couple of months.
It occurred to me that maybe that wasn't the thing held up at customs. I bought a drying tube a while back from reacware and it had a 24/29 joint instead of a 24/40 that I ordered. It didn't matter to me but I let them know and they insisted on sending a replacement. That is probably the thing that was intercepted.

So, either they release it, overlooking (or not realising) that it does not match the description of the DS trap I gave the police. Or I get yet another visit...

A spare drying tube was probably going to be a handy thing. nm.

100PercentChemistry - 30-5-2016 at 15:37

I try to keep a lab notebook and some msds sheets. I also have saftey posters on the walls:D I would try to do a different hobby as well. Like I have a robotics lab for robots and telescope for astronomy as well as a microscope for some biology.

skip - 30-5-2016 at 16:02

I understand the bullshit about buying glass for some ppl. But I never knew why a dean stark was needed, if you distill into a sep funnel then return the solvent after seperation and keep the water to mesure progress.

j_sum1 - 30-5-2016 at 16:25

A DS has its place I think. This one was a mere 14 bucks. It was sold as part of an essential oil kit -- for which it is well suited.
I think the main advantage of a DS is the set and forget feature. When the ratio of the component you are removing is very small and it comes over slowly and there is consequently a lot of the distillate to return to the original flask -- I think then a Dean Stark is probably useful.

I speak from a theoretical position having never actually used one. But I will try drying some toluene and dehydrating some oxalic acid at some stage.


@100%chem
I also keep a lab book and if you look earlier in this thread you will see that I had the police sign it on their previous visit. I also had evidence of many other projects in my shed. But they were not looking to see if the things I was doing were legit. Rather they wanted me to justify something that they really had no knowledge of. I think that was the main difference between the two visits.

If it came to a legal contest they really don't have a case. They have to demonstrate intent and there is just no evidence that I am either capable or equipped to do drug-related chemistry. But that does not stop the current interactions from being a PITA.

Herr Haber - 31-5-2016 at 05:38

Quote: Originally posted by chemrox  
and why would someone who actually does chemistry make meth?


Br
Ba

:)

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 02:36

I posted in another thread about some chemicals i found on a list. i am in the Uk and after reading this and seeing some utterly confusing documents and websites supposed be inform the public, j_sum1 a serious question...have you ever stopped to wonder if all this is worth it?

You mention work and ordering isnt allowed, so i assume you work in chemistry?? If so then i guess yes i can see why people interested in and working in a science area would also have it as a hobby.

In my own case i am not of working age just yet, and to be fair i dont study chemistry at school (a mistake). I have an interest in chemistry that is slowly developing but i do begin to wonder if its really worth the risk. So many rules and stiff penalties for getting it wrong, and yet no clear guidance on what is allowed and what isnt.

I hope they dont bother you again, is there not a point where the visits become (cant think of the word :() and you are able to report them for picking on you, sorry had a brain fade and cant think of a simple word!!

j_sum1 - 9-6-2016 at 03:01

I am a school teacher and teach chem among other things. Amateur chem has been invaluble for increasing my skill set. But it is pretty important to draw a line between school stuff and personal stuff.

I see no good reason why I should not have a drying tube or DS in my glassenal. Nor do I object to police doing standard checks. But once my situaation is known to the police I should not be having to repeatedly justify my actions. That last visit was plain rude.


As an aside, my replacement drying tube never arrived. They said they would release the package. But since I described a deanstark trap and had temporarily forgotten about the tube I guess they felt justified in calling it a meth pipe and trashing it. I won't pursue the matter but that's mostly because of shifting house and having a million things going on. If there is ever another visit I will be asking them a lot more questions and documenting everything.

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 04:03

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
I am a school teacher and teach chem among other things. Amateur chem has been invaluble for increasing my skill set. But it is pretty important to draw a line between school stuff and personal stuff.

I see no good reason why I should not have a drying tube or DS in my glassenal. Nor do I object to police doing standard checks. But once my situaation is known to the police I should not be having to repeatedly justify my actions. That last visit was plain rude.


As an aside, my replacement drying tube never arrived. They said they would release the package. But since I described a deanstark trap and had temporarily forgotten about the tube I guess they felt justified in calling it a meth pipe and trashing it. I won't pursue the matter but that's mostly because of shifting house and having a million things going on. If there is ever another visit I will be asking them a lot more questions and documenting everything.


Harassment was the word i forgot!

I assume they are fully aware you teach chemistry, so at what point do there visits stop being routine checks and start to become harassment?

My concern being i am not a teacher i am a noob, if people like yourself are being harassed then what hope is there for people like me.

I have read through the forum a fair bit, and out of interest i have read some of the other more...........narrowly focused forums, what i dont really understand is with so many 'raids' visits or whatever you want to call them, why is the proportion of prosecution of drug factories going down?

I know nothing of how these things operate but to my thinking none of this makes any sense.

Surely if your a big drug producer you would be careful enough to have a good cover, at least something that would allow you to buy large amounts of glass and chemicals without anyone raising an eyebrow.

And yet few news stories on the internet of businesses etc being looked at. Having read advice given on here and elsewhere to people in places that makes glass hard to get, it would seem that if you were a one man operation then to avoid knocks and visits you would choose the jam jar chemistry methods, after all it would make little sense to buy small amounts of glass when it is likely to get you a visit.

I am basing this on your experience of being known to have a valid reason and interest, so if i was a drug maker i would avoid glassware like the plague.

Surely the police have actually busted drug makers, i wonder how many of them living in normal houses and making drugs actually used real glassware? I dont know but would guess few.

So what is the point of keep using resources to target someone that has already been cleared? Without trying to sound like i wear a tinfoil hat :D, does start to look like the purpose if to make people interested in chemistry simply give up, this would then make it much easier to do drug busts.

My logic behind the last bit being, if you make hobby chemist's give up then by default anyone left buying chemicals are the drug people!

My final rant/concern. At what point did innocent until proof of guilt, change to probably guilty so prove your not?

The kind of chemistry i like, is probably at the end of the scale where i am the only person remotely interested! And yet even with the things i like and enjoy experimenting with, i find it difficult to fully enjoy my hobby when i worry every time i order something.

Dont get me wrong i dont order things on the banned list, although i am no longer sure what some of these are!! I do own some chemicals that it appears i shouldnt own, i got some nitric acid off Amazon. My assumption was seeing as it was freely available on a reputable site then it was ok, only a little later did i discover its a no no.

So i guess i need to dilute it, the problem then becomes i end up with alot of nitric acid! If i get a visit 10 bottles of Nitric acid is going to look worse than the original 1 ltr i purchased.

Sorry for going on, i doubt i would be so concerned had i not read threads like yours.

I do hope you are left alone from now on.

j_sum1 - 9-6-2016 at 14:49

Round here it is mostly a matter of red tape, checking boxes and butt covering. The customs guys have orders to xray and report anything suspicious and so they do. The police have orders to follow up everything that the customs guys find and so they do. In the case of my drying tube, I didn't describe it accurately (because I forgot it was coming and that was because of my circumstances.) Because I had not demonstrated a legitimate use for that specific item, they could not tick the box and so it would have been held back.

Next time I will have my lab journal with me again. I'll get the names and numbers of the officers. I'll get them to write down exactly what information they have received and what they are investigating. Then I can invite them in to look at the things they specifically need to see. In other words I will help them to tick all the boxes they need and make sure that it is documented by me as well as them.

Yes it seems reasonable to have my name and details on some list of approved people. But that would mean creating a whole new administrative category and probably mean scheduled checks on what I am doing. That's not going to happen. So I will cooperate with the occasional visit as it happens.

I don't think the system is that flawed. My beef is really with the timing and the manner of the last visit. I think it will be to my advantage to have names of the various officers and details written down so that I can name-drop as needed and build up a bit of familiarity. After all, if I am a known quantity then it is more likely that they will use their discretion and leave me alone.

NEMO-Chemistry - 11-6-2016 at 16:42

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Round here it is mostly a matter of red tape, checking boxes and butt covering. The customs guys have orders to xray and report anything suspicious and so they do. The police have orders to follow up everything that the customs guys find and so they do. In the case of my drying tube, I didn't describe it accurately (because I forgot it was coming and that was because of my circumstances.) Because I had not demonstrated a legitimate use for that specific item, they could not tick the box and so it would have been held back.

Next time I will have my lab journal with me again. I'll get the names and numbers of the officers. I'll get them to write down exactly what information they have received and what they are investigating. Then I can invite them in to look at the things they specifically need to see. In other words I will help them to tick all the boxes they need and make sure that it is documented by me as well as them.

Yes it seems reasonable to have my name and details on some list of approved people. But that would mean creating a whole new administrative category and probably mean scheduled checks on what I am doing. That's not going to happen. So I will cooperate with the occasional visit as it happens.

I don't think the system is that flawed. My beef is really with the timing and the manner of the last visit. I think it will be to my advantage to have names of the various officers and details written down so that I can name-drop as needed and build up a bit of familiarity. After all, if I am a known quantity then it is more likely that they will use their discretion and leave me alone.


I understand what your saying, but there is still supposed to be innocent until guilty.Most of you are way older than i am, so i wonder when you started chemistry if you ever seriously thought in X number of years this kind of thing would happen?

What worries me is the trickle principle of loss of normal rights, just how long before you go into a supermarket and but some beer, then because your on a data base of owning car you are stopped 'just in case you been drinking'?

We cant blame terrorism for all this, terrorism has been around alot longer than i have. As i pointed out none of the rules remotely impact the terrorist or drug producer in continuing.

Drugs is a good example, as long as there is a significant profit for all in the chain, then no amount of regulation or rules will stop it.

I know little of America so apologize in advance, but it seems to me America has some of the most strict laws there is regarding certain drugs, the penalties from what i have seen on TV or really severe, and yet has it put any kind of dent in the drug trade?

So is it really about control of drugs or terrorism prevention, or without sounding conspiracy tinfoil type, is it becoming more about overall control? I worry mainly because when most here were my age there was more freedom, what frightens me more than anything is when i am your age and look back, will i think this was the golden era of freedom for me?

I still think considering how much information and how many databases you must be on as a teacher, some common sense should be used and maybe some money saved.

NEMO

I also think you take it all extremely well, maybe too well though. Maybe we all take the gradual loss of our rights to easy? Just a thought.

Db33 - 20-12-2016 at 07:19

sounds like ordering in Australia is horrible! i live in the USA and ive ordered lots of glassware on ebay but havent received a visit, should i? Im not talking about 22 liter flasks, just basic like 1000 ml flasks and condensers and stuff like that.

JJay - 20-12-2016 at 21:14

Quote: Originally posted by Db33  
sounds like ordering in Australia is horrible! i live in the USA and ive ordered lots of glassware on ebay but havent received a visit, should i? Im not talking about 22 liter flasks, just basic like 1000 ml flasks and condensers and stuff like that.


Assuming that you aren't ordering red phosphorus, iodine, benzaldehyde, acetic anhydride, etc. sold notoriously all over the Internet, and assuming that someone doesn't break shipping regulations in sending something to you and get caught, no, probably not. That doesn't necessarily mean that you won't be placed under surveillance or that the powers that be won't try to make you think the police are watching you to discourage you from engaging in any kind of illegal activity, but they need a legitimate reason to stop by your home, even if just for a friendly chat with the local chemist.

I will say, though, that when researching hydroquinone recently, I stumbled across this. It's over ten years old, but it is eye-opening: http://www.telegram.com/article/20060330/news/603300536

It appears that the DEA obtained a warrant allowing them to secretly view eBay records based on a declared import of benzoquinone. That strikes me as odd... customs officials wouldn't care about something like benzoquinone. Something else must tipped off the police... right?

dactyl - 22-12-2016 at 19:02

Perhaps it is possible the Canadian seller sold on ebay and reported the sale to the DEA which would allow the DEA to find a link between the seller and ebay.

dactyl - 22-12-2016 at 19:27

This makes it look like the Canandian company was under a separate investigation:
"In late 2005, agents in the Drug Enforcement Administration's (“DEA”) Worcester, Massachusetts office learned that a Canadian company was shipping chemicals used to make ecstasy to individuals in the United States.   One of the recipients was Diana Piesak.   Piesak, who resided with her family in Dudley, Massachusetts, was a full-time student at the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy."

source:United States Court of Appeals,First Circuit.
UNITED STATES of America, Appellee, v. Diana PIESAK, Defendant, Appellant.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1062025.html

JJay - 22-12-2016 at 20:57

It's not completely clear from the documents whether this is the same company that sent her the benzoquinone. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with ordering some benzoquinone, although along with other chemicals it might be suspicious. For example, if someone were to order benzoquinone, palladium chloride, and sassafras oil together, that would be extremely suspicious and could possibly justify a warrant. Ordering sassafras oil alone is nearly sufficient grounds for a warrant. But just benzoquinone?? It's like reading a newspaper article saying, "The police obtained a warrant after learning that the LSD manufacturer attempted to purchase sodium hydroxide from a local hardware store."

A business relationship between a seller under investigation and a buyer does not, by itself, give grounds to seize the buyer's other records. I'm still not seeing how the warrant for the initial search was justified, and she apparently didn't contest the grounds for the search. Of course, back in 2005, I think eBay made most sales public... so perhaps it's a moot point.

JJay - 27-2-2017 at 12:05

Well, I just saw a police officer in an unmarked vehicle taking position in front of my building. I guess he saw me checking out his vehicle, which looked like a cop Expedition to me (but I wasn't 100% sure) and then rolled down his tinted windows and smiled and nodded in my direction. I returned the gesture.

I wonder what they're here for... there was a lab bust next door a while back, and I suspect they occasionally place my residence under surveillance when I order glass from overseas (I actually wouldn't be surprised if that was what led to the bust, though I didn't even know my next-door neighbor). I have several pieces of of labware sitting in customs right now, but I'm guessing it's probably something that has nothing whatsoever to do with me.


[Edited on 27-2-2017 by JJay]

BasketaneCase - 25-4-2017 at 09:01

Had a very marked police van parked outside all day, because it seems that our neighbours decided that conducting a (unmonitored) grow-op under the cover of renovating a business property was a smart idea; double trouble - both that property and our property have the same landlord; triple trouble - the police discovered that the grow-op was, along with our property, using an illegal power hookup that one of the shell companies hanging off the long chain of "landlords" had been using to 'save money'.

Thankfully, Mr Bill appears to have gone home for the day, suggesting that they aren't interested in tearing our property apart to find my 'suspicious looking' sodium bicarbonate.

Also thankfully, the head end of the landlord chain wasn't willing to let the power company in to axe the electricity, literally.

JJay - 25-4-2017 at 09:27

I noticed a while back that I hadn't observed any weird police activity around my glassware purchases. I can only conclude one of three things:

1. The cops weren't actually watching my glassware purchases in the first place.
2. The cops got bored of watching my glassware purchases.
3. The cops got better at hiding their monitoring activities.

#3 actually seems rather unlikely, but I guess I will never know for sure if they were actually watching.

TheNerdyFarmer - 25-4-2017 at 10:12

I'm just waiting for a visit. I need to get my lab cleaned up though. At least I live in a relatively rural area. Plus we kind of know the police in our area and I feel like if I show them my notes and my lab space they will be cool with it.

AJKOER - 7-5-2017 at 16:00

My nightmare is not the police, but if I am arrested on some technical issue and it proceeds to trial, that's the problem.

First, the money needed for bail, a good lawyer pretrial and for trial prep is not far from $100,000.

Second, where is the jury pool of my scientifically educated peers? Answer: largely does not exist.

Third, media bias has warped peoples' opinion on anyone who knows chemistry must, without doubt, be doing something illegal.

The truth is if you admit to using a hydrogen oxygen compound, the jury goes into a state of shock, and you can rot in jail forever!



[Edited on 8-5-2017 by AJKOER]

diggit - 15-5-2017 at 04:05

I had two cops show up about 7 or 8 years ago - claimed a child had called 911 on a cell phone that was traced to my house, ROFL! The funny bit was that I was incapacitated, at the time, and I told them that I wasn't able to get up and down the stairs to the basement for over a month so, if there was a child in the house, he/she would have to be in the basement and told them that maybe they better check because halfway down the stairs there's a door that opens to the outside but the idea of checking seemed to frighten them.

It never occurred to me that it may have been because of something I'd ordered online - which totally makes sense now. I knew it was faked but I thought maybe someone at work got concerned and didn't want to let on about it and wanted someone to check on me but, of course, all they would have had to do was call and I'd been in constant contact as someone was always calling with questions, so that never really made sense.

symboom - 19-5-2017 at 14:00

Fbi agent visited me because what I ordered online this is one of the few hobbies that will cause one problems. sure I understand the fbi point of view at least I got to have the fbi admit that the investigation is demeaning still surprised I snapped at them I probably should have had an attorney to represent me. It makes one feel like a criminal for knowing chemistry. I guess my user rank of national hazard lived up to its name although im not as skilled as many of you. In some odd way it was flattering I dont consider myself that smart. This will probably be taken out of context hopefully not :-(.
Help with many of you is they have a paper of purchases you have made through a bank card and ask you what you bought it for what did you do with it.

[Edited on 19-5-2017 by symboom]

[Edited on 19-5-2017 by symboom]

JJay - 19-5-2017 at 18:07

I know gun collecting can get you visits from the ATF, especially if you sell a lot of guns. You're permitted to sell your personal guns or guns that you acquired through incidental means without a license, but the penalties for running a gun business without a license are severe, and the lines can be blurry at times. I sold a bunch of guns acquired through a defaulted storage unit a while back, and I do remember that a well-dressed gentleman who didn't buy anything showed up at 8:00 AM sharp and asked a lot of questions.

Ordinarily, law enforcement doesn't know what chemicals and equipment you bought unless you bought them at a public auction (like anywhere on eBay, for example), if you brought them through customs, or if they receive a report on the sale or shipment due to paperwork requirements. Also, they can monitor shipping declarations on USPS and probably other carriers. It is highly unlikely that sellers report sales of chemicals that they have already sold unless the law requires it; if a seller thinks you're suspicious, it is not lawful to sell you the chemicals. But if they refuse to sell you the chemicals on grounds of suspicion, it's a completely different story. They can and likely do report suspicious attempts to law enforcement.


[Edited on 20-5-2017 by JJay]

Police check on a school order

j_sum1 - 10-9-2017 at 20:08

It looks as though there is a slight change in procedure in Aus -- or at least in QLD.

I recently made a glassware order for my school from a contact in China -- the same one that I have previously used. The shipping address was the school premises (although payment was made via a personal PayPal account since my school does not have an account.)

The package was intercepted by xray at customs and flagged since it included two 500mL flasks and a small Allihn condenser. The school received an email from the police with a request to confirm that these items had been ordered and were for legitimate use. Copies of this email were to be sent to two separate police addresses.


This has not happened before and it looks like a new policy. I don't mind the checks but I would have thought that a high school would be able to do its thing without additional investigation.

JJay - 19-4-2018 at 14:44

A neighbor got busted for meth a few days ago. Let's just say that the level of police surveillance in the area right now is both disgusting and obvious. I can clearly see an external camera mounted on a large, ugly, conspicuous vehicle sitting outside. It is pointed at my block's lane entrance, probably recording the license plates of all traffic that leaves. Clean-cut, athletic individuals, dressed as homeless people, wearing headphones and carrying military-style backpacks, have been canvassing the neighborhood. One of them passed out noisily outside my door like it was an episode of Friends. He wouldn't leave when asked, yet he took off on his own about ten minutes after I called the drunk tank to pick him up, saying on his cell phone, "He copped me," with no friendly medical personnel ever showing up. I am beyond annoyed.

aga - 19-4-2018 at 14:51

Get as far as taking a photo and become a Twitter Uber-meme.

Magpie - 19-4-2018 at 14:51

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Clean-cut, athletic individuals, dressed as homeless people, wearing headphones and carrying military-style backpacks....


I find that humorous.

JJay - 19-4-2018 at 15:28

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Clean-cut, athletic individuals, dressed as homeless people, wearing headphones and carrying military-style backpacks....


I find that humorous.


Oh, I totally get it.

JJay - 20-4-2018 at 22:12

The local harassment crew seems to have moved on. The last one I saw was a pair, one with the tactical backpack and standard issue homeless uniform and one dressed in normal clothes, both with headphones, pounding on an elderly disabled lady's front door for about ten minutes yelling, "Open up!" at 10:30 at night. A woman who lived nearby told them to get lost, and they argued with her. I was in line of sight and yelled, "That's private property." The one with the backpack took off immediately, and shortly afterward, a police car went blazing up the street at a ridiculous speed with its sirens flashing. The other one knocked for a few more minutes and then walked off muttering something about private property. There is still at least one vehicle with a visible mounted camera parked in the area. I'm pretty sure it's parked illegally but not positive. I'm not a huge fan of these tactics.

XeonTheMGPony - 22-4-2018 at 04:19

that's why they have lost all credibility in my eyes
do your job and do it well, but then they get lazy and resort to thug tactics and intimidation.

I never realized just how lazy and useless things had gotten till experimenting it.

LearnedAmateur - 22-4-2018 at 04:30

Sounds like that’s what happens when the police have a bit too much money, they can afford to literally sit on their arse all day. Where I live, the local police station is barely functioning and daily patrols require cars dispatched from nearby towns! No wonder a lot of people use drugs and such here, there isn’t much risk of getting caught unless you’re blazenly pumping fumes into the air, and even then, the chemistry kind as opposed to the kind you might exhale..

sodium_stearate - 22-4-2018 at 10:42

Yep. I know about these police tactics too because
I see them being used. They are doing it right now here
in my town. The rental house next door is currently
occupied by suspected drug dealers. So, we've got some
of the obviously dressed up cops pretending to be locals
hanging around in very obvious places at oddball times.

We also have the obligatory cop car parked at weird
hours such as 0300 AM down the block. That car usually
has the headlights on, and it is always on the wrong
side of the street facing the wrong way.

Not at all sure what they ever hope to accomplish by
trying to use these really obvious amateurish techniques,
but it is rather amusing to watch.:D

Loptr - 23-4-2018 at 08:05

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
A neighbor got busted for meth a few days ago. Let's just say that the level of police surveillance in the area right now is both disgusting and obvious. I can clearly see an external camera mounted on a large, ugly, conspicuous vehicle sitting outside. It is pointed at my block's lane entrance, probably recording the license plates of all traffic that leaves. Clean-cut, athletic individuals, dressed as homeless people, wearing headphones and carrying military-style backpacks, have been canvassing the neighborhood. One of them passed out noisily outside my door like it was an episode of Friends. He wouldn't leave when asked, yet he took off on his own about ten minutes after I called the drunk tank to pick him up, saying on his cell phone, "He copped me," with no friendly medical personnel ever showing up. I am beyond annoyed.


That is weird. Almost too weird. Bizarre, even. I wish I could share the mental video that is going on in my head right now.

Is this standard practice after something like that happens?

JJay - 23-4-2018 at 15:27

I don't know. Their tactics seem similar to what I've read about the Baltimore VCIS unit.

Anyway, they finally sent in the professionals, and they twisted my landlord's arm, so I'm going to have to give a couple people a tour of my lab tomorrow. They stopped by today. I objected, and one of them listed off a whole bunch of three letter agencies. Ok....

j_sum1 - 23-4-2018 at 15:27

It sounds like their training involved sitting down and watching a whole bunch of 1970s cop dramas.
(Cue baritone clarinet music...)


All I can say is go to the end of your driveway and set up a stand selling coffee and donuts. I mean, what could they possibly do??





[Edit]
JJay, missed your last post while I was typing.
That is sounding more serious. But on the plus side, it is sounding less incompetent. All the best.

[Edited on 23-4-2018 by j_sum1]

Loptr - 23-4-2018 at 15:35

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
I don't know. Their tactics seem similar to what I've read about the Baltimore VCIS unit.

Anyway, they finally sent in the professionals, and they twisted my landlord's arm, so I'm going to have to give a couple people a tour of my lab tomorrow. They stopped by today. I objected, and one of them listed off a whole bunch of three letter agencies. Ok....


So wait... What does this have to do with you? There was an arrest of a neighbor, and suddenly they are at your door? This is such a curious case.

JJay - 23-4-2018 at 15:35

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hajBdDM2qdg

Eh, not a whole heck of a lot, but I'm not taking any chances. The last thing I need is to get written up for a dirty window or something.

JJay - 23-4-2018 at 15:36

Quote: Originally posted by Loptr  
Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
I don't know. Their tactics seem similar to what I've read about the Baltimore VCIS unit.

Anyway, they finally sent in the professionals, and they twisted my landlord's arm, so I'm going to have to give a couple people a tour of my lab tomorrow. They stopped by today. I objected, and one of them listed off a whole bunch of three letter agencies. Ok....


So wait... What does this have to do with you? There was an arrest of a neighbor, and suddenly they are at your door? This is such a curious case.


I didn't even know my neighbor. This kind of stuff is happening all over the neighborhood.

Magpie - 23-4-2018 at 16:07

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  

This kind of stuff is happening all over the neighborhood.


I have nothing like this in my neighborhood in a fairly large city in Washington state. May we know what neighborhood you live in?

JJay - 23-4-2018 at 17:36

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
Quote: Originally posted by JJay  

This kind of stuff is happening all over the neighborhood.


I have nothing like this in my neighborhood in a fairly large city in Washington state. May we know what neighborhood you live in?



Not a good one, LoL. I am giving some serious thought to relocating. While I really do not believe that my two visitors actually represent an alphabet soup of Federal agencies (my landlord doesn't speak English well), I'm going to take the visit seriously and make sure I've crossed every T and dotted every I. I'm just imagining the horrors if they saw something like a stray extension cord with a missing ground lead.... :o

JJay - 24-4-2018 at 08:24

Well, it looks like my guests are late. Everything is all pine-fresh too....

Loptr - 24-4-2018 at 10:25

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Well, it looks like my guests are late. Everything is all pine-fresh too....


They surely would have showed up by now if they were late a few hours ago. It sounds like they were looking for something to hang around for so long, and put so much effort into having a presence in the neighborhood. I hope you don't get caught up in some sort of show of effort, or be made into an example.

Best of luck. I hope things go well for you.

JJay - 24-4-2018 at 13:39

They did finally show up but seemed to be in a huge hurry and left without issue.

j_sum1 - 24-4-2018 at 15:19

I hope that's the end of the story then.
Sounds like their inquiries about you were actually them making a show of being thorough while they were investigating someone else.

JJay - 24-4-2018 at 17:48

Yeah, I am really not too worried about having the Gestapo kick in my door at 6 AM. I think they have been using a technique called "hot spots policing." I really ought to find some better neighbors....
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