Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Potassium Permanganate Held at Post Office

Potassium Permanganate Held at Post Office

JJay - 4-2-2016 at 12:14

I recently ordered a kilogram of potassium permanganate. I don't have a specific use for it, but it's a very useful reagent, and uses for it do pop up from time, so I figured I should have some on hand. I know that potassium permanganate is a watched chemical in the U.S even though it isn't listed... in fact, I remember hearing about a raid just a few doors down from my dorm room in college where someone was using it to make drugs. Generally, though, permanganate is not a significant chemical for law enforcement unless purchased in large quantities, or so I believe....

I'm certainly not planning on doing anything illegal with the permanganate or any of the rest of my chemicals, but it just occurred to me I did have a cold a few weeks ago and do have about half a box of cold pills left... and I did of course have to sign a DEA form for those. I thought nothing of that when I ordered the permanganate, but the delivery status on it is "Held at post office, Retrieved from full parcel locker," and usually my mail is received by an agent. Does this mean I'm going to have to sign for it personally?

I'm not particularly concerned ether way, but I'm not too keen on the DEA seeing that I've purchased two methcathinone precursors over the course of a month, even though the purchases were actually unrelated and the quantity that could be made from them is very small. Also, I am entirely uninterested in methcathinone. Is it likely that I'm going to have to explain my permanganate purchase or talk to any DEA agents regarding these purchases?

chemrox - 4-2-2016 at 12:46

Don't offer your lab notes or any other data! Just sign for it and don't answer questions. You are not obligated to justify a purchase to the goddamned PO! The most likely reason it was held was the seller required a signature to protect you.

aga - 4-2-2016 at 12:48

To pre-emt or to not pre-emt ?

Hmm. Tricky one.

The main thing would be Why it is being held ransom at stamp-point in your post office ?

If it is to get you to show up, go there, armed with a bit of paper with your name, address and phone number on it, which is to be handed into the postal people before you sign for the package.

Explain that you want them to have this info in case what you bought causes any bother, and will help sort it out much quicker for all concerned.

Much better to have a Contact Call before armed people show up at your door.

JJay - 4-2-2016 at 13:47

Oh wait a sec... Permanganate actually is listed but it is on List II with a threshold of 55 kg. Apparently it is used for purifying cocaine. What a hassle....

Edit: Update: They let my agent receive it. My guess is that a signature was required for the package and they tried to deliver when the agent wasn't around. Anyway, I haven't flushed my half box of cold pills yet, LoL.

[Edited on 4-2-2016 by JJay]

BromicAcid - 4-2-2016 at 14:02

I wouldn't be worried about it for being on a watched list. I would be worried because potassium permanganate is an oxidizing agent. If someone shipped it to you and it is not shipped per the regulations in 49 CFR §172.101 then and investigation can be carried out. It is possible sometimes to be caught in the crossfire, especially if someone drop shipped it to you without their own identifying information. Of course if the package is leaking you have a whole different issue.

JJay - 4-2-2016 at 14:04

Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid

I wouldn't be worried about it for being on a watched list. I would be worried because potassium permanganate is an oxidizing agent. If someone shipped it to you and it is not shipped per the regulations in 49 CFR §172.101 then and investigation can be carried out. It is possible sometimes to be caught in the crossfire, especially if someone drop shipped it to you without their own identifying information. Of course if the package is leaking you have a whole different issue.

TBH I highly doubt that 49 CFR was followed but I'll know for sure when I pick up the package.

BromicAcid - 4-2-2016 at 14:15

You as the buyer would not be liable as far as I know, the onus falls on the person shipping the package. Just suggesting that may be a possibility, one more likely than a red flag unless for some reason you already had several other red flags.

XeonTheMGPony - 4-2-2016 at 15:24

Tell them it is for your maganees green sand water filter. it is used to reoxidize the green sand for hydrogen sulfide removal along with iron.

JJay - 4-2-2016 at 15:29

It looks like it actually was followed... I don't see hazardous chemicals shipped by air very often, but apparently, it is ok for less than 5 kilograms of permanganate.

arkoma - 4-2-2016 at 17:12

I've ordered it from Loud Wolf in California, delivered right to my door in rural Ar-Kin-Saw w/no problems.

Herr Haber - 4-2-2016 at 17:33

Back when I was younger and spills occured often I managed to color / disclor most of the furniture and carpet in my room. Crystals of different salts were growing on the wood of the shelves

Can you imagine the relief when I discovered that H2O2 would clean the Brown KMnO4 stains?
This day I managed three things:
- Discover another way to make oxygen without having to go through electrolysis
- Discover more about oxydation states (I had acces to pretty much nothing as books were concerned)
- Made my mother happy ! There were so many stains of KMnO4 around from my experiments...

But I perfectly understand the feeling of concern when ordering a chemical for one reason and discovering it can have several illegal uses afterwards :-/
My lab is now well stocked and I dont order new chems often but I remember one day receiving a package that had been opened by customs. They seemed to have been interested by the Lithium Carbonate (ok, looks like cocaine) but made a mess with a 500 grams package of aluminium that they opened but didnt bother to close well. Sigh...

j_sum1 - 4-2-2016 at 19:03

Quote: Originally posted by arkoma

I've ordered it from Loud Wolf in California, delivered right to my door in rural Ar-Kin-Saw w/no problems.

http://www.loudwolf.com/store/
Looks like a really useful source.
(posting link cos it might help someone.)

Bert - 4-2-2016 at 20:46

Postal System + ignorant shippers + hazardous materials = potential legal problems

Sorry. Lots of people put potentially dangerous things into a package, take it off to the post office, ship it out without a friggin' CLUE of what the regulations are. Permanganate is an oxidizer. Bulk oxidizer = UN class 5 Hazmat.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAZMAT_Class_5_Oxidizing_Age...

Exclusion amounts and shipping surface with proper labeling might make it OK- IF the shipper had researched the requirement, properly labeled, packaged and declared the contents. Ship it in a plain brown box and trust to luck? There ARE automated systems to inspect parcels in transit these days.

Buying chemicals from small time eBay sellers can be a crap shoot. Buying from etablished, legally compliant shippers is more expensive for good reasons- Including the massive time and effort required for regulatory compliance.

I have received a Chinese shipment of bulk Chems labeled "T-shirts"! Not a hazardous chemical, but I'd guess a Hazmat from that supplier would have shipped the same way.

If you know anyone who drives a truck, works in the postal system or commercial cargo forwarding, please sympathize with their desire to get through their day without a toxic, flammable or explosive surprise...

(Edit)
http://m.ebay.com/itm/SURVIVAL-PACK-Potassium-Permanganate-6...

So, what happens to a semi trailer when the cargo shifts and crushes THAT package, allowing the contents to mix...

[Edited on 5-2-2016 by Bert]

Dr.Bob - 5-2-2016 at 06:25

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

http://m.ebay.com/itm/SURVIVAL-PACK-Potassium-Permanganate-6...

So, what happens to a semi trailer when the cargo shifts and crushes THAT package, allowing the contents to mix...

Oh, oh, oh, I know... :-) That was one of my favorite things to do in high school. One of the teachers I suggested it to even was dumb enough to do it inside, on her desk. Thankfully, not under the sprinkler head. After that, we did all of my suggested experiments outside...

Etaoin Shrdlu - 5-2-2016 at 10:46

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

(Edit)
http://m.ebay.com/itm/SURVIVAL-PACK-Potassium-Permanganate-6...

So, what happens to a semi trailer when the cargo shifts and crushes THAT package, allowing the contents to mix...

Well, he's clearly familiar with hobby pyrotechnics so I would hope he knows to separate oxidizers and fuels in different packages. Everything I've gotten from him has been packed very professionally (incl. multiple bagging for liquids) but I haven't yet ordered any incompatible materials in the same shipment so I can't say for sure.

MrHomeScientist - 5-2-2016 at 11:15

Why speculate when you can take 2 seconds to read the description:
"For safety sake, we will package and ship these two items separately."

Just sayin'.

careysub - 5-2-2016 at 12:37

Regarding Schedule II: take a look at the actual DEA manual for people who handle chemicals.

It is ~68 pages long, and deals entirely with Schedule I, except for one single page warning about the legal consequences of knowingly providing Schedule II substances to drug cooks.

In other words, they are not really tracking Schedule II at all (or they forgot to tell the people actually selling and shipping the stuff about it). It is more of a "seller beware" thing.

JJay - 5-2-2016 at 20:13

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

I have received a Chinese shipment of bulk Chems labeled "T-shirts"! Not a hazardous chemical, but I'd guess a Hazmat from that supplier would have shipped the same way.

If you know anyone who drives a truck, works in the postal system or commercial cargo forwarding, please sympathize with their desire to get through their day without a toxic, flammable or explosive surprise...

T-shirts? That is pretty bad. I've read lots of stories about mislabeled imports, but the worst I've seen was a funnel shipped as a "switch" - my guess is that whoever filled out the manifest just didn't know what it was.

I'll never forget the time someone shipped me 3 kg of deeply discounted sodium metal via vanilla priority mail. Wrapped in plastic....

[Edited on 6-2-2016 by JJay]

alking - 20-3-2016 at 10:25

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

I'll never forget the time someone shipped me 3 kg of deeply discounted sodium metal via vanilla priority mail. Wrapped in plastic....

[Edited on 6-2-2016 by JJay]

I actually lol'd, that's the best one so far. Was it at least adequately air tight sealed or just kind of spun in siran wrap?

[Edited on 20-3-2016 by alking]

Camroc37 - 20-3-2016 at 11:43

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

I recently ordered a kilogram of potassium permanganate. I don't have a specific use for it, but it's a very useful reagent, and uses for it do pop up from time, so I figured I should have some on hand. I know that potassium permanganate is a watched chemical in the U.S even though it isn't listed... in fact, I remember hearing about a raid just a few doors down from my dorm room in college where someone was using it to make drugs. Generally, though, permanganate is not a significant chemical for law enforcement unless purchased in large quantities, or so I believe....

I'm certainly not planning on doing anything illegal with the permanganate or any of the rest of my chemicals, but it just occurred to me I did have a cold a few weeks ago and do have about half a box of cold pills left... and I did of course have to sign a DEA form for those. I thought nothing of that when I ordered the permanganate, but the delivery status on it is "Held at post office, Retrieved from full parcel locker," and usually my mail is received by an agent. Does this mean I'm going to have to sign for it personally?

I'm not particularly concerned ether way, but I'm not too keen on the DEA seeing that I've purchased two methcathinone precursors over the course of a month, even though the purchases were actually unrelated and the quantity that could be made from them is very small. Also, I am entirely uninterested in methcathinone. Is it likely that I'm going to have to explain my permanganate purchase or talk to any DEA agents regarding these purchases?

Yep, they think you are making Meth or something of the likes. Just go get your stuff and don't buy any Phosphorus or Iodine for a while.

Metacelsus - 20-3-2016 at 11:52

Methcathinone would be made with permanganate + cold pills, not methamphetamine.

JJay - 20-3-2016 at 12:42

Quote: Originally posted by Metacelsus

Methcathinone would be made with permanganate + cold pills, not methamphetamine.

Right. Methcathinone is supposedly easy to make, but it's not very popular AFAIK, so I assume it's either super bad for you, has unpleasant side effects or just isn't very effective. I can't think of any offhand, but I believe that some other cathinone analogs have use in medicine.

Cathinone is more popular than caffeine in some Asian countries, but it is illegal in most of the Western world.

j_sum1 - 20-3-2016 at 12:44

So, tell us what happened JJay. Did you pick it up? Were there any issues?

JJay - 20-3-2016 at 12:50

There were no serious issues; the permanganate had been labelled in accordance with Federal law and for that reason was apparently held in a separate area from regular mail, which delayed delivery by a day for some reason.

JJay - 20-3-2016 at 13:25

Quote: Originally posted by alking

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

I'll never forget the time someone shipped me 3 kg of deeply discounted sodium metal via vanilla priority mail. Wrapped in plastic....

[Edited on 6-2-2016 by JJay]

I actually lol'd, that's the best one so far. Was it at least adequately air tight sealed or just kind of spun in siran wrap?

[Edited on 20-3-2016 by alking]

It was coated with mineral oil and wrapped in heavy plastic, then sealed in double Ziplock bags.

S.C. Wack - 20-3-2016 at 13:33

Was this like a decade ago and from the NW? If not, this is not uncommon.

A big regional hardware store here will sell me pounds of permanganate no problem. Sears is or was a common source for people elsewhere.

arkoma - 20-3-2016 at 13:58

I've ordered it from "loudwolf", no problems.

JJay - 20-3-2016 at 14:11

I've seen permanganate locally but only mixed with sodium sulfate, which I'm not sure how to remove.