Sciencemadness Discussion Board - [RESEARCH] My interpretation of the Texas anti-glassware law

[RESEARCH] My interpretation of the Texas anti-glassware law

Cou - 12-3-2016 at 17:31

Please don't put this in Detritus, because it's the first attempt on this forum to analyze the risk of buying glassware w/o a permit in Texas, instead of just bashing the law and going "OH TEXAS ANTI-SCIENCE DRACONIAN FASCIST DUMB LAW" with no research or thought.

From health and safety code title 6 chapter 481:

Sec. 481.081. CHEMICAL LABORATORY APPARATUS TRANSFER PERMIT. (a) A person must obtain a chemical laboratory apparatus transfer permit from the department to be eligible:

(1) to sell, transfer, or otherwise furnish an apparatus subject to Section 481.080(a) to a person in this state;

(2) to receive an apparatus subject to Section 481.080(a) from a source outside this state; or

(3) to receive an apparatus subject to Section 481.080(a) if the person, in receiving the apparatus, does not represent a business.

(2) is the biggie if you want to order glassware from a company outside Texas, and have it shipped to you. So for example, an order from Elemental Scientific, HMS Beagle, or even a China-based company such as Laboy Glass. If I interpreted this right, you can legally get glassware this way:

1) Drive to a town right across the border with Oklahoma/Arkansas/New Mexico/Louisiana.

2) Rent a P.O. box in that town's post office.

3) Have the glassware order shipped to that P.O. box.

4) Make a 2nd trip to pick up the package once it's shipped.

5) Drive it back home in Texas.

This doesn't violate the Texas glassware law, however you might be breaking some law about importing glassware, or driving glassware across state borders, and I can't find any law related to that.

Now zts16 is one of the many Texas amateur chemists who has bought lots of glassware with not a peep from law enforcement. He argues that the law is only used against actual meth cooks. Similarly, someone in this forum called DPS and DPS said "there are no cases of that law used against someone who was not manufacturing drugs". It therefore seems that this law is never enforced, so there's nothing to worry about. Also the fact that the law is very obscure and no one knows about it. Probably one of those dumb laws in the books that no one enforces, like the one that says it's illegal to take more than 3 sips of an alcoholic beverage at a time while standing up.

But now take a look at this:

Quote: Originally posted by parmenides123

I spoke with a lady named Jeanne Malone who is the head lady in charge at the DPS chemical precursor program, she informed me that they do regularly investiigate and prosecute people for using those items without a permit drugs/explosives or not. After that anonymous conversation I made this account and went into emergency order cancel mode. In order to get that permit your house has to be inspected and you have to have locked safe or locker that is bolted to a wall to hold the glass. You have to give them a list of exactly everything you will be doing with, if you have any criminal record you are denied. You go into all sorts of investigative databases. I have no illicit intentions, Im a chemistry major and from conversations with my professors and lab techs, ive come to the conclusion you cant do any kind of real deal chemistry without most of those items. Its a really sad state.

Do they mean to say that if you get glassware, you're screwed, even if you never made meth? But zts16 pointed out that of course they would say that, because DPS isn't gonna say "oh go ahead and buy glassware, it's illegal but we don't care".

Now after all this, I still haven't decided if it's safe to buy glassware. So I used google scholar to search court cases. I searched for "chemistry laboratory apparatus" and Sec. 481.138 (the section that defines criminal punishment for having unregistered glassware) and in both searches, only one court case came up. Perhaps this is the only time in legal history that the law was used, which was in 2009? Here is the court case: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=155217417421899...

This was a man who manufactured methamphetamine. But then the mention of that law is in the footnotes only; while the law was mentioned in court, it appears that it was never applied to the sentence. And the man didn't even use glassware, it seems that he made the meth in a plastic bottle and glass jars.

So if this Google Scholar search is accurate, it appears that the anti-glassware law has NEVER actually been used in a Texas court case in the history of that law since it was made in 1989. And therefore a Texas amateur chemist has nothing to worry about. In the miniscule chance that you're the first one for whom the law is brought up in court, it may get thrown out because you're not making drugs or explosives.

However I'll need to do a more thorough search. My brother is a lawyer, he might be more skilled at searching court cases.

I'll also have to do an arrest record search. It's entirely possible that the law was used for an arrest/search warrant and SWAT raid, but the subject was convicted in court of something unrelated to the glassware law.

[Edited on 13-3-2016 by Cou]

[Edited on 13-3-2016 by Cou]

Mailinmypocket - 12-3-2016 at 18:14

Why couldn't you just have it shipped from Elemental or another U.S. based vendor? It won't go through customs and therefore not be subject to scrutiny like items from out of country (and even then, I'm sure lots of glassware comes in and is seen by customs and is sent along its merry way to Texan hobbyists). Yes you technically bought it and imported it without applying for a permit for glassware. But if there are no large safety issues or drugs/explosives hanging around should you be "investigated", then what is the worst that can happen? A fine? A warning?

It seems like this law stresses you a little more than it should. What happens if a person takes up a genuine interest in doing responsible safe home chemistry and never thinks to look up laws regarding glassware specifically? Lots of people would search for perhaps "is amateur chemistry legal in XXXX country?", which gives pretty varied results. Would this person be severely prosecuted? Seriously doubt it especially in the absence of other crimes being committed.

I guess I'm just trying to say that the law is there for other purposes than to prosecute responsible yet perhaps naive hobbyists.

Now go order an erlenmeyer and have some fun!

Cou - 12-3-2016 at 18:20

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket

But if there are no large safety issues or drugs/explosives hanging around should you be "investigated", then what is the worst that can happen? A fine? A warning?

It's a felony to receive unregistered glassware.

Sec. 481.138. OFFENSE: UNLAWFUL TRANSFER OR RECEIPT OF CHEMICAL LABORATORY APPARATUS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person sells, transfers, furnishes, or receives a chemical laboratory apparatus subject to Section 481.080(a) and the person:

(1) does not have a chemical laboratory apparatus transfer permit as required by Section 481.081 at the time of the transaction;

(2) does not comply with Section 481.080;

(3) knowingly makes a false statement in a report or record required by Section 481.080 or 481.081; or

(4) knowingly violates a rule adopted under Section 481.080 or 481.081.

(b) An offense under this section is a state jail felony, unless it is shown on the trial of the offense that the defendant has been previously convicted of an offense under this section, in which event the offense is a felony of the third degree.

[Edited on 13-3-2016 by Cou]

[Edited on 13-3-2016 by Cou]

Mailinmypocket - 12-3-2016 at 18:56

Circumventing the law probably is too in one way or another. The amount of trouble you are willing to go through just to avoid being a "criminal" for buying a 125ml erlenmeyer is far more suspicious than just ordering it to your door like a normal person and answering questions if and when they come up!

Texium - 12-3-2016 at 20:33

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket

Circumventing the law probably is too in one way or another. The amount of trouble you are willing to go through just to avoid being a "criminal" for buying a 125ml erlenmeyer is far more suspicious than just ordering it to your door like a normal person and answering questions if and when they come up!

Yes, and I've tried to tell him the same thing many, many times in other threads like this that he's started as well as countless U2U messages, a couple of which he refers to in the OP.

Cou, you're really beating a dead horse now with your continued obsession with this topic. Buy some glassware, or don't, I don't really care either way, but next time you post on here it better not be about this law (or Donald Trump, for that matter).

[Edited on 3-18-2016 by zts16]

aga - 13-3-2016 at 00:29

Given that it is a bit of an obsession, and clearly the consequences are worrying enough that you have not acquired glassware, your best course would be to explain all this to the police (or some branch of the law) and ask for clarification and/or permission.

If they say 'No.' then you're in the same position you are now, yet with a record that you asked, which would be slightly better than nothing.

If they say 'OK' and give you something in writing, you can do what you like, within reason.

Repeatedly asking/saying stuff here is utterly pointless. Nobody here is an expert in Texan law, and neither is there any infuence from SM on Texan State Legislators.

It's like repeatedly asking a bunch of Carpenters the precise details of the triple heart bypass operation you are about to undergo : we do not know. Ask the surgeon.

Amos - 13-3-2016 at 07:38

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Repeatedly asking/saying stuff here is utterly pointless. Nobody here is an expert in Texan law, and neither is there any infuence from SM on Texan State Legislators.

It's like repeatedly asking a bunch of Carpenters the precise details of the triple heart bypass operation you are about to undergo : we do not know. Ask the surgeon.

More important, it's barely relevant at all. Cou seems to be the only Texan chemist that is even remotely phased by the law. It's like we're being asked to spoonfeed peace of mind.

arkoma - 13-3-2016 at 13:27

Under a strict interpretation of the glassware law your damn coffee maker is illegal--it's a FILTER FUNNEL fer chrissake.

I nominate Cou for "Texas Drama Queen" forum title

carrant - 14-3-2016 at 20:59

Cou,

In reading
Texas Health and Safety Code, Chapter 48

please pay close attention to the list of definitions.

(5) "Controlled substance" means a substance, including a drug, an adulterant, and a dilutant, listed in Schedules I through V or Penalty Group 1, 1-A, 2, 2-A, 3, or 4. The term includes the aggregate weight of any mixture, solution, or other substance containing a controlled substance.
(6) "Controlled substance analogue" means:
1. (A) a substance with a chemical structure substantially similar to the chemical structure of a controlled substance in Schedule I or II or Penalty Group 1, 1-A, 2, or 2-A; or
2. (B) a substance specifically designed to produce an effect substantially similar to, or greater than, the effect of a controlled substance in Schedule I or II or Penalty Group 1, 1-A, 2, or 2-A.
...
(53) "Chemical laboratory apparatus" means any item of equipment designed, made, or adapted to manufacture a controlled substance or a controlled substance analogue, including: ...

Looking at
Texas Administrative Code (TAC), Title 37, Part I, Chapter 13, Subchapter E, RULE §13.101

We have the same definition

(2) Apparatus--An item of chemical laboratory equipment covered by this subchapter, that is designed, made, or adapted to manufacture a controlled substance or a controlled substance analogue. This term: ...

In looking at the definitions and going through some substitutions, the wording would seem to indicate that a permit is required if you are going to be dealing with controlled substances and/or their analogues.

Maybe that's why you can buy a coffee maker nearly everywhere in the state.

Now if coffee becomes a controlled substance then we are all doomed!

If you are still concerned, then to circumvent the law you probably need to order and receive the apparatus out of state.

As indicated by
Texas Administrative Code (TAC), Title 37, Part I, Chapter 13, Subchapter E, RULE §13.103, Permit Exception

(10) is a recipient who places an order to receive and receives the precursor or apparatus while located outside this state.

Here is a set you can buy off of Craigslist in the metroplex.
Since they are close enough to Oklahoma you might be able to get them to meet you across the border.
Organic Chemistry Giant Deluxe Glassware Set - $650 (Denton)

If you are still looking for peace of mind then find a lawyer, pay them a few $k and get their interpretation of the statutes. The law is a complicated beast!

Good luck!

careysub - 15-3-2016 at 00:06

If Cou has a mind to travel he can probably get an SM member who is not in Texas to act as his agent, and do the order and receipt. People on SM are pretty helpful. Two long days of driving will get you to almost anyplace in the CONUS from Texas, make it a four day adventure - and that is the worst case.

j_sum1 - 15-3-2016 at 03:17

Good idea careysub.
Make a week of it and spend three days eating bad (or good) food with a friend and doing interesting stuff in the lab.

Texium - 15-3-2016 at 06:53

Or he could just drive less than an hour to Denton and buy that really nice array of glassware that carrant suggested, which certainly looks to be worth the money, considering it comes with a heating mantle and has pretty much every piece of glassware that one would use regularly and then some. It would be sold by an individual and not be traceable by the government. If he's careful and doesn't break any, he could conceivably not need to buy glassware again, or at least not for a very long time.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 15-3-2016 at 10:06

With all this effort spent freaking out about Texas, you could have gotten a permit by now.

aga - 15-3-2016 at 11:31

Hooray !

So Cou has a working solution and we can stop hearing all about how Texas is so difficult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKFuc8CdvoA

Cou - 15-3-2016 at 13:18

@ carrant, I just called DPS and they said that a permit is required for the glassware, whether or not it's being used for controlled substance. And minors cannot have the permit, the parents however can.

That craigslist deal is quite good.

[Edited on 15-3-2016 by Cou]

carrant - 15-3-2016 at 14:15

@Cou,
Perhaps you should ask the craigslist poster in Denton to meet you in Thackerville, OK. Buy his set and be done with it.
OR
Visit HobbyTown USA on Walnut Hill in Dallas and pay cash for an eflask and RBF OTC.

On a side note - I'm not sure calling TxDPS is the best source for your answer. If you really want to know you should consult with a lawyer.

As an example, call your local TX police station and ask them if you can buy a silencer/suppressor or SBR/SBS. Chances are they will tell you no, they are not legal to own, but that is not a correct answer. (I use this example because I've chatted with family members in law enforcement and they were 100% convinced silencers/sbrs were illegal).

Good luck!

Etaoin Shrdlu - 15-3-2016 at 15:13

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

And minors cannot have the permit, the parents however can.

Save the funds for one and ask your parents. Don't they support your hobby now?

As far as I know, no one will actually care if you do this border-hopping rigamarole as long as you don't get caught with a drug lab, but the safest thing is still a permit.

Cou - 15-3-2016 at 15:15

Fun fact: I forgot the name of the store, but this small hobby shop in the DFW area was selling florence flasks OTC, which actually require a permit of both the seller and buyer. Guess they don't know about the law, or it just isn't enforced...

aga - 15-3-2016 at 15:22

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

Fun fact: I forgot the name of the store

Sigh.

Ok. Here we go. Try to concentrate.

H is for Hydrogen
He is for Helium
Li is for Lithium
P is for Potato
...

Bert - 15-3-2016 at 16:42

For the sake of the children, please violate TX letter of the law, fully document your actions and call TX "dept. of pubic safety from scary glassware", demand to be arrested and have ACLU make a test case of this.

j_sum1 - 15-3-2016 at 18:46

@Cou
I, for one, am looking forward to the end of Tx glassware discussion. (Yes I know that I don't have to read it, but look at my posting history. You can tell I'm hooked.

)

It seems like the letter of the law in Tx is slightly more restrictive than other places (except now perhaps the EU), but the actual application allows for some flexibility. (Refer to zts16's experience.)

Now that you have been presented with several sensible options, why don't you act on one and see what happens. I can't wait to see some chemistry from someone who is so enthusiastic and who obviously has a penchant for order and fine details. It should be amazing!

Cou - 17-3-2016 at 12:12

After extensively searching Texas court cases on Google Scholar, I can't find a single case of someone who was convicted solely for having glassware. If the police got a search warrant, it was always due to reports of drug dealing, or the smell of methamphetamine, or some complaint. If they didn't get a warrant, drugs were discovered during an unrelated arrest, such as for a DUI. And in every single case, the charge was based on the fact that they either possessed methamphetamine or precursor chemicals such as phenylacetone. Glassware was merely used as evidence to build a case against them, however the glassware law was NOT used in the sentence, only the possession of a controlled substance was.

This is the only case where the glassware law was remotely used in a sentence (From 1993!) but still, he had sold precursor chemicals. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=504057940126970...

The law is briefly mentioned in the footnotes here, however not mentioned once in the court case, which did involve drugs. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=104015615523365...

I found at least one case where a wiretapped phone conversation was used to get a search warrant against a drug trafficker.

But who knows, some poor soul who blabbed a bit too much to the DPS could be the first one.

Now as for being ARRESTED for having glassware, and later convicted when the cops happened to find drugs in the area, I dunno about that.

[Edited on 17-3-2016 by Cou]

aga - 17-3-2016 at 13:00

Buy the glass and avoid incriminating compounds, including precursors and intermediates.

Hopefully you'll soon be posting some great writeups about the Chemistry you have done.

With any luck, so will i.

Keep a log book. Date, reaction, intention. Full workings-out.

[Edited on 17-3-2016 by aga]

Cou - 19-3-2016 at 22:53

Just went check out that chemistry set on craigslist, it turned out to be kind of incomplete. Most of the flasks weren't even ground-glass joined, and not much variety, and it was missing adapters for distillation. Not worth $650.

At this point, it seems that the best course of action for a Texan home chemist is to have a glassware order shipped to a friend outside of Texas, go pick it up there, and bring it back, since the glassware law explicitly states an exception for this. Barring any importation laws.

The issue with the permit is that it only applies for one purchase. Forgot to buy 1 flask? Gotta submit another permit and wait a month.

Texium - 20-3-2016 at 07:06

Hm, true I didn't notice the lack of distillation adapters. That's rather disappointing. I wonder why they aren't there, considering that assortment of stuff would be rather useless without them. Still, though it might not be the best set for a beginner, it's still some good stuff. A few gems in it, like the giant sep funnel, the Soxhlet extractor, and the Schlenk flask.

aga - 20-3-2016 at 11:42

Ebay !

There's some good kits to be had ! I got several pieces/sets from ben0315 a couple of years back, and they're all still ok despite me abusing them (apart form the bits i smashed).

Like this :-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Organic-Chemistry-Laboratory-Glass...

egAAOSwxH1UBc8f

If you're thinking that you'll need other stuff, and have the available $, get a hotplate/stirrer as well, also a vac pump, buchner filter setup, stirbars, etc etc.

If you can also afford a Soxhlet, get one, and it can get used once, then stay put for a year or so just like mine

JJay - 20-3-2016 at 16:13

On thing to keep in mind -

The Texas Administrative Code can be changed at any time by the Governor of Texas without any legislative approval required - all it takes is an executive order.

Since that part of the Administrative Code is not really law but really just enforcement policy, it's not clear to me that there would be any ex post facto protection if the code were changed.

Cou - 20-3-2016 at 16:54

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

On thing to keep in mind -

The Texas Administrative Code can be changed at any time by the Governor of Texas without any legislative approval required - all it takes is an executive order.

Since that part of the Administrative Code is not really law but really just enforcement policy, it's not clear to me that there would be any ex post facto protection if the code were changed.

In that case, it wouldn't be too hard to get the glassware "law" repealed if a group of chemists, professional and amateur, in Texas got together to mass-email the senator. Who happens to be Ted Cruz, and he's quite busy right now.

JJay - 20-3-2016 at 17:02

He's a U.S. senator - you'd want to contact the state congress about that. Or possibly the governor... although I don't see why a governor would want to ask a legislative body to take away some of his power, even if he's not planning on using it.

Cou - 20-3-2016 at 17:12

Sorry, meant to say the governor Greg Abbott.

As much as I've been thinking of such a campaign from a society of texan chemists, it would be quite hard to find people to get on board. Most professional chemists don't take too kindly to home chemists. If you don't believe me, look at /r/chemistry on reddit. And they wouldn't be fond of any laws that encourage home chemistry. We'll at least have to wait until the presidential election is over, since it's taking most political attention. My plan would be to erect some political signs on the roadside, or flyers on poles, with an email for recruitment into a group and assembly.

What about a local district representative, what kind of power do they have?

Either way, just one person can't do shit, if you try emailing them yourself, they will likely send back an automated message and not take it seriously. it needs to be a group effort.

I just sent an email to the governor, asking if he's aware of this regulation, since the law is so obscure that many texas politicians probably don't even know about it. Hell, when I called DPS, the first guy had no idea what I was talking about, they had to call back the next day.

[Edited on 21-3-2016 by Cou]

JJay - 20-3-2016 at 18:32

I personally would not bother with signs over something like that. I'd just contact the ACS and local chemistry societies, perhaps speak with glassware companies about funding, circulate a petition, etc.... I don't know if there is any sort of referendum process in Texas, but a petition does count for something.

WGTR - 20-3-2016 at 18:33

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the problem with just getting the permit? So far as I know, it's free. If there's a requirement for locked storage, a closet door with a lock would probably be fine. Locked storage is a good idea anyway. The lab could be a backyard picnic bench by the water tap.

I've never bothered to get a permit up to this point, as I live in an apartment, and all of my chemistry is done at work (even the hobby stuff). I'm getting ready to move, hopefully to a house with some land. If I do, then I'll just get a permit and buy some stuff. I'd probably still use the glassware at work, but I'll see what I can learn about the process.

It sounds, in a roundabout way, that you're going through a lot of effort to avoid breaking any laws. Why not take all of that energy and channel it towards the minimal effort it would take to set up a lab and get a permit? The permit requirement isn't intended to keep you from buying glassware, home-school people do it all the time. It's intended to discourage those with a guilty conscience from secretly acting on their nefarious deeds. Do you have a guilty conscience? :cool:

I've mentioned it before, but before the home visit, just remove anything from the premises that resembles improperly-stored this or that, like that 5 gallon barrel of acetone that you have in your bedroom closet, or that kilo of sodium cyanide that you left on the kitchen counter. Plan out some innocuous experiments with your intended purchase, so that you're ready to provide examples of what you intend to do with your glassware. Plan on being friendly and agreeable with the kind officer. You want the visit to be very simple and uncomplicated. Don't start rambling about conspiracy theories, or how dumb you think the law is. And that's about it.

Cou - 20-3-2016 at 20:20

Quote: Originally posted by WGTR

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the problem with just getting the permit? So far as I know, it's free. If there's a requirement for locked storage, a closet door with a lock would probably be fine. Locked storage is a good idea anyway. The lab could be a backyard picnic bench by the water tap.

I've never bothered to get a permit up to this point, as I live in an apartment, and all of my chemistry is done at work (even the hobby stuff). I'm getting ready to move, hopefully to a house with some land. If I do, then I'll just get a permit and buy some stuff. I'd probably still use the glassware at work, but I'll see what I can learn about the process.

It sounds, in a roundabout way, that you're going through a lot of effort to avoid breaking any laws. Why not take all of that energy and channel it towards the minimal effort it would take to set up a lab and get a permit? The permit requirement isn't intended to keep you from buying glassware, home-school people do it all the time. It's intended to discourage those with a guilty conscience from secretly acting on their nefarious deeds. Do you have a guilty conscience? :cool:

The issue with the permit is that you have to apply for a new one every time you want to make a new glassware purchase. Forgot one flask in your last order? Gotta file another permit, go through another inspection, and wait a month first. Combine that with the long shipping times that are typical of glassware companies, and life is just too short for all that patience.

Other problem is that you have to store the glassware in a fixed, locked cabinet that's attached to the garage wall or floor.

I say the best solution for a Texan is to have it shipped to a P.O. box outside of state. Does Laboy Glass ship to a P.O. box?

But now that I think about it, if you already have a locked cabinet, you can place the order at the same time that you get the permit, and the permit and glassware should arrive at the same time. Though you're technically supposed to order it after the permit.

[Edited on 21-3-2016 by Cou]

Texium - 21-3-2016 at 05:01

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

I say the best solution for a Texan is to have it shipped to a P.O. box outside of state. Does Laboy Glass ship to a P.O. box?

I say the best solution is to just order it to your house or P.O. box at your local office like any other normal human being would. The Oklahoma thing is so unnecessary. You're really going to drive what I'd assume is at least a couple hours every time you buy glassware?

Well, it's certainly not an option for me anyway, as it takes at least 5 hours to drive to another state from Austin in any direction... I'm closer to Mexico than I am to any other state.

arkoma - 21-3-2016 at 07:16

I'm in Texarkana, Arkansas area. Bring me $400 and I'll sell you everything I've got and happily order new stuff off eBay and DOUBLE my amount of glass.

*edit*

Drama Queen

[Edited on 3-21-2016 by arkoma]

aga - 21-3-2016 at 08:57

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

and wait a month first. Combine that with the long shipping times that are typical of glassware companies

Shipping China->USA is incredibly fast.

If you and i order stuff from Ebay today, they'll immediately put them both on a near supersonic plane destined for Dallas.

Yours will then get fast-tracked to your door by DHL. 1 week max.

Mine will then be sent via glacial action to the coast, where random sea currents will take it and eventually wash it up on the shores of Spain, at which point a beachcomber will pick it up and tie it to wandering donkey, which may or may not eventually wander within 50km radius of my house.

2 months is not unusual, depending on the donkey.

arkoma - 21-3-2016 at 09:28

^^^after they chinese remember that stuff to Iberia gets aged under a pile of turnips for 6 weeks. But yes, to US 10 days, tops.

Cou - 21-3-2016 at 11:41

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

I say the best solution for a Texan is to have it shipped to a P.O. box outside of state. Does Laboy Glass ship to a P.O. box?

Well if you're reasonably close to the border, like me(1 hour away), then it's not a bad choice

aga - 21-3-2016 at 12:00

So have you placed an order yet Cou ?

If not, what are the Plans and where have you got to with them ?

Also, when the glass arrives, what is first reaction you'll do with it ?

Cou - 21-3-2016 at 13:07

Quote: Originally posted by aga

So have you placed an order yet Cou ?

If not, what are the Plans and where have you got to with them ?

Also, when the glass arrives, what is first reaction you'll do with it ?

I'm going to place 2 separate orders: The graduated cylinders and non-glassware metalware on Amazon to my house, and will have to take a trip to Oklahoma to get a P.O. box and then have Laboy Glass ship there. zts16 thinks the Oklahoma thing is unnecessary, but whatever relieves my paranoia of leaving glassware in the house is what's best.

First thing I will do is make a gas generator (3 necked flask w/ addition funnel, tube leading out that gas leaves) do stoichiometry to experiment with different concentrations of H2S in water solution, see which one is best for a "sprayable stink bomb" product, inspired by the success of this: http://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Ass-Mister/dp/B000OCEWGW/ref=lp_2595545011_1_1?srs=2595545011&ie=UTF8&qid=1458594406&sr=8-1. Yes I know H2S is toxic further above the smelling threshold.

[Edited on 21-3-2016 by Cou]

Etaoin Shrdlu - 22-3-2016 at 04:02

Cou. After you've brought the glassware to Texas, how on earth are you going to prove where you picked it up?

hyfalcon - 22-3-2016 at 04:30

Shipping documents to the PO Box I would assume.

Mailinmypocket - 22-3-2016 at 04:33

So all this fussing about the legality of glass, all just to spray solutions of H2S around to smell it and annoy others :S sigh.

Make a sulfur dioxide generator instead and bleach flowers and other coloured things!, before H2S anyways.

Cou - 22-3-2016 at 10:28

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket

So all this fussing about the legality of glass, all just to spray solutions of H2S around to smell it and annoy others :S sigh.

Make a sulfur dioxide generator instead and bleach flowers and other coloured things!, before H2S anyways.

What about the guy who invented the "Liquid Ass Spray"? Are you gonna criticize him for spraying skatole and thiols all over the place, in the effort to find a perfect recipe?

Mailinmypocket - 22-3-2016 at 10:35

Sure, it's kind of an annoying thing to do. Assuming having the right to spray compounds into others breathing air on purpose for fun.

H2S is toxic, and I am just concerned for your health and that of other people. Imagine having an accident and making far more of it than intended, it ends up bothering neighbors etc and just attracts negative attention. Something you are clearly very concerned about already.

Cou - 22-3-2016 at 11:41

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket

Assuming having the right to spray compounds into others breathing air on purpose for fun.

I'm not trying to start a fight, but I'm not doing it "just for fun" at all. It's an effort to create a product that I can sell.

ParadoxChem126 - 22-3-2016 at 12:01

That may not be a fantastic idea, from both a chemistry and business point of view. Hydrogen sulfide is very toxic, not to mention its ability to desensitize the nasal receptors. You may be exposed to lethal levels of hydrogen sulfide without being aware. If you are new to practical chemistry, this is not a good idea for a first experiment, as it takes experience to be able to handle these materials safely.

Also, this would not be a product you should sell. It would be essentially as dangerous as selling solutions of hydrogen cyanide. Commercially they use thiols and organosulfur compounds because they are significantly less likely to be a large poison hazard.

I suggest starting with more "scientifically oriented" experiments. Perhaps experiments with metals and ions, or simpler organic chemistry experiments?

Mailinmypocket - 22-3-2016 at 12:01

You are trying to outmarket an already successful product but using a more toxic alternative, gotcha. I'm not trying to start a fight either but I am done with this pseudo-trolling.

Mailinmypocket - 22-3-2016 at 12:12

Amateur chemistry is not meant to be competitive or money making! It could certainly lead to discoveries and innovations though. You can make lots of unique yet completely non moneymaking compounds! It's about learning and enjoying the process of doing so. It's not like making a feces scented spray will make you rich anyways.

Start slow, enjoy and respect the hobby. Chances are it will not make you financially rich. Not many of us do amateur chemistry for profit, only to satisfy our hunger for science.

Edit: Cou deleted a post that makes this response out of context.

[Edited on 22-3-2016 by Mailinmypocket]

aga - 22-3-2016 at 13:22

This has gone too far Cou.

So the Texas stuff was all bogus crap just to garner attention as well ?

If i were a mod ...

Cou - 22-3-2016 at 13:27

Quote: Originally posted by aga

This has gone too far Cou.

So the Texas stuff was all bogus crap just to garner attention as well ?

If i were a mod ...

Where did you get that from? I deleted the post because I wanted to add a paragraph before someone saw it, then it became moot.

Originally the point of this thread was to discuss that law in general. Not just for my personal help. Previous discussion of the Texas law on this forum never went very far, only up to "Texas is a dumb state that infringes on freedoms, MEETING ADJOURNED."

[Edited on 22-3-2016 by Cou]

mayko - 22-3-2016 at 13:43

I don't actually have any data to back this up, but I'm pretty sure that supply far outstrips demand when it comes to bad smells.

Cou - 22-3-2016 at 13:56

Quote: Originally posted by mayko

I don't actually have any data to back this up, but I'm pretty sure that supply far outstrips demand when it comes to bad smells.

So maybe you think bad smells are a bad idea, so you decide to make fruit-smelling sprays with esters.

Do you really think anyone is gonna buy that, with all the perfumes already on Amazon?

Chemistry entrepreneurship requires heavy brainstorming.

ParadoxChem126 - 22-3-2016 at 15:38

The foundational motive for home chemists is to pursue one's interest and enthusiasm in the science of chemistry. Amateur chemistry has little to do with profit and sales. If your main motivation is making money, there exist other alternatives which would likely be much more profitable. If you find that the science itself is not interesting, perhaps you might think about choosing another hobby.

Cou - 22-3-2016 at 15:53

Quote: Originally posted by ParadoxChem126

The foundational motive for home chemists is to pursue one's interest and enthusiasm in the science of chemistry. Amateur chemistry has little to do with profit and sales. If your main motivation is making money, there exist other alternatives which would likely be much more profitable. If you find that the science itself is not interesting, perhaps you might think about choosing another hobby.

The science is interesting. But like I said, there needs to be some kind of goal to achieve. Kewls might enjoy dumping chemicals together and watching them react for the hell of it, but real chemists don't just make things for the hell of it, right?

One purpose of chemistry could be to make a profitable product. For example, if perfumes were profitable (it's a saturated market so not really), I could have fun by making different esters, recording smells, and deciding which ones would be the best candidates for a fruity perfume.

Cou - 22-3-2016 at 16:22

Now to stop derailing this thread and get back on the original topic, which is discussing the Texas glassware law;

I just discovered a new hurdle for Texas amateur chemists. You won't be able to easily get a P.O. box out of state. You could just have to shipped to "General Delivery" to a post office outside of Texas, but if you're having the package shipped from China, that "general delivery" could arouse some suspicion from customs due to the fact that General Delivery mail is anonymous and associated with drug trafficking. General Delivery is so rare nowadays that I've heard of post offices refusing to keep packages, and sending them back.

That permit is starting to look mighty good now... just need a locked, anchored cabinet to keep the glassware.

[Edited on 23-3-2016 by Cou]

JJay - 22-3-2016 at 19:41

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

Quote: Originally posted by ParadoxChem126

Now this is interesting... how would you "record" the smells?

Cou - 22-3-2016 at 19:45

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

Quote: Originally posted by ParadoxChem126

Now this is interesting... how would you "record" the smells?

Everyone has a different sense of smell (H2S actually smells pleasant to me, like freshly scrambled eggs, not rotten eggs) so smell reports are unreliable. I would keep samples for reference.

Texium - 23-3-2016 at 05:00

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket

What about the guy who invented the "Liquid Ass Spray"? Are you gonna criticize him for spraying skatole and thiols all over the place, in the effort to find a perfect recipe?

I am certainly going to criticize him. Some damngus keeps spraying that crap in the science hall at my school and it never fails to derail the classes and keep people from concentrating on anything but the awful smell. An infinitely more productive invention would be a spray that reacts with the indoles and thiols in it to destroy the odor. And that's something that I've actually considered trying to make... so you can see why I'd be extremely disappointed that your ambitions amount to this.

Cou - 23-3-2016 at 06:57

After calling DPS, the head lady of the controlled substances department, Deanne Malone, says that in order to get the permit, you must have a locked cabinet to store the glassware, and the cabinet must be permanently fixed to a wall or floor, so that burglars can't take it. It also must be inside the house, not outside. They will have DPS officers inspect the cabinet to be sure it's secure (this happens within 2 weeks of sending the permit, they schedule a time to check with you). And they ONLY inspect the area with the cabinet, not the whole house.

I'm not sure if "home chemistry" is a valid excuse for the permit, probably is.

[Edited on 23-3-2016 by Cou]

chemrox - 23-3-2016 at 11:03

What does the permit cost? I pay $50 a year for a precursor permit from my state pharmacy board. Why? Because every GD chemical you can think of us on the list. (I had to correct their spelling of methylamine, they didn't have the first clue.) @Bert- yeah and while you're at it confess to intention to violate the section. @Detritus: I think your post was good. BTW: DEA does not regulate research labs. However Spectrum among other CA based re-packagers doesn't know that. More lawyer tax. Technically you might have to have an import license to buy from offshore. Nobody I know gets one. This came from a DEA guy. I think he was wrong. The import license would be for a re-packager and I know a few who don't have the license. But I digress...
Here's an interpretation and the most draconian clause of all: http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/cases/searches/ag_jc-0021.htm
Why is Tx so freaked out by home chemistry? Seems like Yahoos (pronounced "Yay-who) are the biggest meth freaks of all.. when they're not doing Oxycontin.. Oxycontin is also known as "hillbilly heroin" I heard from a sometimes reliable source that ephedrine hcl sells for 10G/pound there. I guess it come through the tunnels.

[Edited on 23-3-2016 by chemrox]

Cou - 23-3-2016 at 13:12

The permit is free.