Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Mine platinum from the dust next to highways

deltaH - 28-5-2016 at 22:35

6.8g Pt/ton of dirt next to the highway is a pretty impressive grade!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5GPWJPLcHg

Damn, I wish I lived in a country were catalytic converters were mandatory :mad:

Zephyr - 28-5-2016 at 22:52

Wow, thanks for sharing this very cool video. Maybe highway dust will become a valuable commodity one day...

deltaH - 28-5-2016 at 23:59

Pleasure! Mind you, the dirt immediately on the down stream side of the road could be pretty rich as the road dust would wash over to there from rainfall, unless there are gullies and storm drains :mad:

[Edited on 29-5-2016 by deltaH]

ficolas - 29-5-2016 at 05:27

6.8g/ton isnt probably the amount, he suposed the whole beat was platinum.
In what country arent catalytoc concerters mandatory? :o
It doesnt seem fair that some countries are able to pollute more than others, but politics are politics, they should be imposed everywhere

aga - 29-5-2016 at 07:54

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
6.8g Pt/ton of dirt next to the highway is a pretty impressive grade!

Sounds like fun !

$214 for collecting/processing a ton of road-dust sounds less attractive.

deltaH - 29-5-2016 at 07:59

wow, that much? ... and I get to do chemistry? I'll take it :)

unionised - 29-5-2016 at 08:15

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
6.8g Pt/ton of dirt next to the highway is a pretty impressive grade!

Sounds like fun !

$214 for collecting/processing a ton of road-dust sounds less attractive.

Possibly more attractive than processing a ton of platinum ore.
Occurrence in the earth's crust is something like 4 or 5 mg/ ton.
It would be interesting to know if there are valuable amounts of other metals- like Cu and Pb in road dust.

deltaH - 29-5-2016 at 08:42

Actually its a little more than what's found in Platinum ore. South Africa has the largest reserves of platinum in the world. This is from one of our platinum mining companies:

Platinum grades.JPG - 67kB

Source: http://www.mintek.co.za/Pyromet/Platinum/Platinum.htm

So as you can see, there's more in this road dust than platinum ore and you don't have to blast, dig and mill it!

[Edited on 29-5-2016 by deltaH]

unionised - 29-5-2016 at 10:10

Yes, but I don't think you will be able to extract lots of nickel, cobalt etc from road dust to cover most of the cost.

MeshPL - 29-5-2016 at 10:22

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2976623/Road-dust-can...

Cody wasn't the first one to think about it.

Here's a paper on a subject:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15050388

But it is 12 years old and since that amount of platinum in exhaust catalysts may have increased.

Sewage also contains precious metals:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/1199...

careysub - 29-5-2016 at 13:47

So, how much roadway do you need to vacuum up dust from to get, say, 100,000 tonnes (2000 troy ounces of Pt*) and what would be the cost of doing so?

Three things make a mine: an ore body of sufficient concentration, an ore body that is accessible, and an ore body that is large enough to payback the cost of opening the mine with profit.

The road-dust only satisfies the first part. Low concentration ores can be mined for profit only because they can be extracted in bulk at a low cost.

*This is way insufficient to open a processing operation, really. A reliable source of one million tons would probably be needed to get even a second look.

aga - 29-5-2016 at 14:46

Ore is much easier to get in kiloton quantities.

Dust is harder to catch.

Edit:

Perhaps people who live in high-density cities would donate their used hankies ?

plantinum-from-snot.com is born.

[Edited on 29-5-2016 by aga]

j_sum1 - 29-5-2016 at 17:30

I would think that if you are sweeping the streets anyway then a lot of the donkey-work is done. All that is required is to divert the sweepings to a processing facility. I think that there are a lot of harder ways of getting a viable ore.

The idea has merit. Especially for urban areas.

unionised - 30-5-2016 at 02:22

What might be profitable is to sweep up the dust (roads get swept anyway), sieve it to remove most of the stuff that nobody wants, (maybe roast it to remove rubber dust- just to save weight) and then sell it to an existing platinum mine to chuck in with their beneficated ore before the smelting process.
Much less investment in equipment- albeit at some considerable transport cost.

j_sum1 - 30-5-2016 at 02:35

Added to that idea...
Most cities of amy size have a rail lin. It is common for more goods to go into a city than come out. So filling a railcar or two with dust and transporting it out could be reasonably cost-efficient. If the sweeping, the infrastructure, and the processing are already in existence then it is largely a logistics exercise.

Sounds like a sensible course of action to me.

unionised - 30-5-2016 at 04:10

Recycling the PGM would also be more environmentally friendly: Pt etc are toxic

aga - 30-5-2016 at 04:17

Depending on rainfall, getting your hands on the dust might be economically viable.

Rain washes stuff into the sewers/storm drains.

Periodically these need to have the silt cleaned out, which is a service that the town council generally pay for, as the waste (in the UK at least) is classified as 'contaminated' due to the oils & tars from the tarmac.

The waste companies have to pay to dispose of the silt.

If you could work out how to profitably process the silt (and dispose of the residues) you'd simply offer a free disposal service to the waste companies, and they'd collect/transport the silt to your facility for free.

deltaH - 30-5-2016 at 08:54

The nice thing about ordinary PGM ore is that the value metals are associated with sulphide minerals that can easily be concentrated out of the waste powdered rock (called gangue in the industry) by the cheap process of flotation.

During flotation, air is bubbled through the stirred slurry of ore, water and the sulphides, being naturally hydrophobic, stick to the rising air bubbles. At the top, you get a grey froth which spills over a weir and is then vacuum filtered continuously in drum filters.

The concentrate is then sent straight to the smelter if I remember correctly.

Now with this road dirt, the PGM metals in the catalyst is supported over inert oxides like silica and titania, which unfortunately is chemically similar to gangue, so difficult to concentrate it by flotation as these materials are hydrophilic.

The fire assay that Cody used in the clip was a neat trick, but not feasible because of the enormous amounts of lead used and wasted.

It would really be ideal to have some kind of simple physical method of concentrating the dirt, but I can't think of any just now.

As far as wet chemistry is concerned, leaching out all the metals with acid and oxidant is probably the most accessible, but not a very good method cost-wise.

Time for vinegar, air and salt again :D

I'm glad some people are starting to toy with the idea, I agree that mines are more feasible economically, but unfortunately I don't own one. Does anyone care to donate a platinum mine? I'd even settle for rights to the ore body, see I'm not greedy :P

[Edited on 30-5-2016 by deltaH]

100PercentChemistry - 30-5-2016 at 09:09

Sound like a lot of work but sounds fun!
I'm assuming it's from the converter or is it from the asphalt itself?

[Edited on 5-30-2016 by 100PercentChemistry]

[Edited on 5-30-2016 by 100PercentChemistry]

deltaH - 31-5-2016 at 11:52

From the converter.

aga - 31-5-2016 at 12:06

Any vinegar salt and air notions regarding Pt dissolution ?

Perhaps add pepper (chilli) ?

What the hell ! go organometallic !

[Edited on 31-5-2016 by aga]

unionised - 31-5-2016 at 13:23

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
The nice thing about ordinary PGM ore is that the value metals are associated with sulphide minerals that can easily be concentrated out of the waste powdered rock (called gangue in the industry) by the cheap process of flotation.

...

The concentrate is then sent straight to the smelter if I remember correctly.
...

[Edited on 30-5-2016 by deltaH]


I suspect that, give the tonnage of material put through a smelter, adding a few tons of road dirt to the "concentrate" wouldn't be a problem. The "concentrate" from flotation still has gangue in it. You would be adding a little more dross, but quite a lot more Pt.

deltaH - 1-6-2016 at 23:01

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Any vinegar salt and air notions regarding Pt dissolution ?

Perhaps add pepper (chilli) ?

What the hell ! go organometallic !

[Edited on 31-5-2016 by aga]


If you had very thin platinum plating on some electronic components, I suspect you could well leach it using a solution of salt, vinegar and hydrogen peroxide, as we did with gold. In this case you would form chloroplatinic acid which is analogous to chloroauric acid.

HOWEVER, here we have platinum supported over extremely high surface area catalyst support. This is not just ordinary silica or titania, it's fumed silica and titania (typically) with specific surface area's of 300+ m^2/g and ~50m^2/g, respectively. These are powerful adsorbents because of those large surface areas, much like activated carbon adsorbs things like crazy. So even if you did oxidise the precious metal here, those chloroplatinic acid ions would probably still stick like mad to the silica.

In fact, you prepare these catalysts by impregnating this carriers/supports with a solution of chloroplatinic acid and they adsorb on.

This is the problem. Leaching these things off is not a favourable equilibrium, which necessitates multiple washings and concentrating the resulting very dilute solution. All this makes it extremely impractical.

[Edited on 2-6-2016 by deltaH]

deltaH - 1-6-2016 at 23:12

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
The nice thing about ordinary PGM ore is that the value metals are associated with sulphide minerals that can easily be concentrated out of the waste powdered rock (called gangue in the industry) by the cheap process of flotation.

...

The concentrate is then sent straight to the smelter if I remember correctly.
...

[Edited on 30-5-2016 by deltaH]


I suspect that, give the tonnage of material put through a smelter, adding a few tons of road dirt to the "concentrate" wouldn't be a problem. The "concentrate" from flotation still has gangue in it. You would be adding a little more dross, but quite a lot more Pt.


I quite agree with you, I don't see any other economical way to recovering this beside smelting. Only high temperatures can negate the strong adsorption of metal on these catalyst supports.

High temperature sinters the material which destroys the very high specific surface area of the support and also sinters the metal nanoparticles into larger particles that can coalesce even further.

Ideally though, it would be nice if some process could be found to pre-concentrate the dirt so that you don't have to smelt such a low grade.

deltaH - 1-6-2016 at 23:24

I do have an idea as to how to pre-concentrate the dirt before smelting.

Since the catalyst support consist typically of fumed silica/titania/zirconia etc. nanomaterial with very high specific surface area, one can use surface chemistry to one's advantage.

In a solution of high pH, these inorganic oxides charge up like crazy and you form colloidal solutions of them. Sand doesn't do that because there isn't enough surface area to significantly charge up, so the electrostatic repulsion between sand particles due to this surface charging is negligible, but not for silica nanoparticles.

In fact, such colloidal silica and such are sold commercially, e.g. brand name Ludox (if it still exists).

If anyone is wondering how the pH causes the surface to charge, the surface of these inorganic oxides typically contain lots of hydroxyl groups and these can be deprotonated at high pH. In fact, it is these surface hydroxyl groups that make these materials very hydrophilic.

So perhaps all one has to do is prepare a slurry (aka thick mud) of the dirt, add cheap caustic soda to raise the pH, then tumble the dirt for some time (cement mixer?) to mechanically assist the conglomerated catalyst particles to break up into colloidal particles that enter into solution.

Finally filter and boil down the filtrate and then smelt the resulting dark solids. You aught to have a high grade concentrate consisting of a mixture of sodium silicates, PGMs and silica gel and other metal contaminants.

If you want to save on energy and have lots of liquor containing the colloidal materials to process, simply dig a very shallow hole over a wide area, buy cheap thick black plastic sheeting used by builders to protect floors while painting, lay it in the hole and pour your filtrate into that to evaporate in he sun, taking care to only have a few cm's depth in the sheet plastic or you might develop holes and leaks by the pressure exerted onto the plastic and dirt/twigs beneath. Obviously summertime is best.

Heck, all you really need to start is a pick-up truck, cement mixer, brooms and shovels, some cheap labour, plastic sheeting and water.

If you want to smelt it yourself, you'd need to buy a furnace, $$$

Better would be to assay the concentrate and then sell it on ebay for spot price of PGM content minus some x percent to make it attractive and make the real hard work somebody else's problem :D

[Edited on 2-6-2016 by deltaH]

deltaH - 2-6-2016 at 00:09

Okay, so who will volunteer to mix up a bucket of road dirt with some sodium hydroxide and water, settle, decant and boil down to the filtrate to see what you get?

I suggest 30-50% road dirt by weight to water (depending on what you use to mix it with), and 1% sodium hydroxide by weight of dirt (might get away with less, but this feels like a good value to start with).

One could also buy one of those paint mixing impellers from the hardware store and mix it with a power-drill in large plastic containers.

One might not even need to filter, just leave the bucket to stand overnight and then carefully decant the supernatant liquid from the settled solids.



[Edited on 2-6-2016 by deltaH]

aga - 2-6-2016 at 11:39

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
Okay, so who will volunteer to mix up a bucket of road dirt with some sodium hydroxide

Hi. I think we've met before :)

So, for the dullest amongst us, the high pH will cause the nanoparticles of the stuff we want to end up in the Liquid bit yes ?


aga - 2-6-2016 at 11:57

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Recycling the PGM would also be more environmentally friendly: Pt etc are toxic

Wouldn't that mean that you can make organometallics with Pt, seeing as 'toxic' means it can be absorbed into living systems ?

If the organic molecule was reactive enough to Pt and Big enough, perhaps that'd defeat the 'stickiness' problem of the substrate.

deltaH - 2-6-2016 at 21:03

Quote: Originally posted by aga  


So, for the dullest amongst us, the high pH will cause the nanoparticles of the stuff we want to end up in the Liquid bit yes ?



Yup, that's exactly correct.


aga - 3-6-2016 at 08:29

I've identified a few low points on the autovia (highway/motorway) where the rain will have washed particles into a gulley, so i think that will be a good place to start mining.

Also safer than sweeping the edge of the road.

Assuming that we can get anything at all, how is the presence of Pt to be tested ?

deltaH - 3-6-2016 at 11:45

Be careful to be sure your gulley has the 'pay dirt' and that it didn't wash away. I suppose it's prospecting after all, some spots will be rich, others poor.

There is a kind of cheap furnace for melting jewellery DIY:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/FREE-SHIPPING-Electric-Meltin...

Problem is these furnaces don't get anywhere near PGM melting temperatures.

Cody got it right by using lead metal as a 'solvent' to dissolve out the PGMs, the lead later oxidising away to lead dioxide and thus leaving behind the PGM component, but I don't fancy having lead contaminating everything.

Maybe another metal could be used? This would need researching in the literature.







aga - 3-6-2016 at 15:38

Well, 'prospecting' kind of Requires some way to tell if you found PayDirt.

No point sticking a heap of sand into a whole lot of Energy if there is no Pt in there (in this case).

Some method for detecting the presence of Pt would possibly be more of an 'invention' than processing the paydirt.

It'd certainly help find where the paydirt is.

careysub - 3-6-2016 at 17:22

Here is a Bureau of Mines account of platinum assaying from 1920:
https://books.google.com/books?id=m7XPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA48&a...

Quite a lot of work, it seems. There must be more modern methods?

deltaH - 3-6-2016 at 17:52

The most convenient method for fast ore assaying is probably x-ray fluorescence (XRF).

They even make handheld versions:

http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/xrf-xrd/delta-handheld/

Not cheap though :mad:

You probably need to prospect for the rest of your life to pay that thing off lol

Then again, one might be able to MacGuyver an Arduino, x-ray tube and detector together to measure 'something', whether one would get useful results is another matter.

[Edited on 4-6-2016 by deltaH]

deltaH - 3-6-2016 at 18:16

Aga will probably want to know how XRF works...

The innermost electrons of atoms are in low energy (more stable) orbitals whose values are largely independent of the chemical environment the atom finds itself in (as opposed to higher energy valence electrons whose energy very much depends on the chemical environment it's in, i.e. the chemical bond).

Anyway, the orbital energy of these innermost electrons are in the range of x-rays, so shining an x-ray of a higher energy onto elements causes some of these innermost electrons to take up that photon and then be ejected from the atom (break orbit so to speak).

You are then left with a vacancy in that orbital of one electron. An electron from a more outer and higher energy orbital can then 'drop an orbit' or multiple orbits to fill the vacancy in the core orbital. In doing so, it simultaneously emits a photon whose wavelength is the difference between it's current orbital and the vacant one it enters. Remember, that the orbits around atoms are quantised and come in fixed increments.

These emitted or fluorescent photons are characteristic of the orbital energies for the atom and so can be used to infer what elements are present and by calibration to intensity, how much.

[Edited on 4-6-2016 by deltaH]

aga - 4-6-2016 at 01:22

Don't think i have any x-ray sources lying around.

Seems there has been much research on platinum recovery, which is no surprise.

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/rpsj/51/1/51_1_48/_pdf

deltaH - 4-6-2016 at 03:21

Interesting idea, but I still prefer a concentrate and smelt approach for simplicity.

I have seen clips on youtube where people build very simple arc furnaces, e.g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTzKIs19eZE

This should get hot enough to smelt the concentrate directly, without any additives.

deltaH - 4-6-2016 at 03:41

The nice thing of using caustic soda to concentrate with is that the resulting solids will consist of an alkaline mix which ought to form molten glasses with the materials used for catalyst support, so it should work great for smelting.

You just need to hit 1800C to melt platinum, but these simple electric arc can even melt tungsten if left long enough :o

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur_Ye2E_KoQ

unionised - 4-6-2016 at 03:47

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
Quote: Originally posted by aga  


So, for the dullest amongst us, the high pH will cause the nanoparticles of the stuff we want to end up in the Liquid bit yes ?



Yup, that's exactly correct.


That's the claim, but I don't see why it's likely.
I can easily imagine that the Pt will stick to whatever is present that doesn't dissolve in the NaOH solution.
For example, there is going to be some rust, some rubber and some cellulose present in the road dust.
Why won't the Pt nanoparticles stick to those, rather than dissolving into the liquid phase?

deltaH - 4-6-2016 at 04:21

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
Quote: Originally posted by aga  


So, for the dullest amongst us, the high pH will cause the nanoparticles of the stuff we want to end up in the Liquid bit yes ?



Yup, that's exactly correct.


That's the claim, but I don't see why it's likely.
I can easily imagine that the Pt will stick to whatever is present that doesn't dissolve in the NaOH solution.
For example, there is going to be some rust, some rubber and some cellulose present in the road dust.
Why won't the Pt nanoparticles stick to those, rather than dissolving into the liquid phase?


I don't propose fully hydrolysing the catalyst support, just forming a colloidal solution by charging up the surfaces of the nanoparticles. There is a difference.

The PGMs would either (a) continue to stick onto the colloidal particles of catalyst support or (b) if the conditions are such that they too are repelled off the surface, then they will themselves remain in colloidal solution.

Think about it, if conditions are so extreme to repel the PGM particles off the surface of the catalyst support, those same conditions will not have them stick to any other surface present in the dirt, they too would charge up at high pH!

aga - 5-6-2016 at 07:34

Today around 21.5kg of roadside dirt was collected in a 15 litre recycled paint bucket.

To add to the excitement i counted the cars for 5 minutes : 93 passed by, on a sleepy Sunday afternoon.

After sieving, there was 9.0 kg of dust and 12.5kg of rubble, twigs, bits of plastic etc.

~12 litres of tap water was added to the finer dust-like portion and stirred with an axe-handle to mix.

Adding water to the dust makes it hard to stir. Better adding the dust to the water.

The mixture measured at pH 7.5.
The water here is very high in calcium/magnesium carbonates, so i suspect the dusty stuff is slightly acidic.

152g of NaOH was added, which brough the pH to 12.5
A further 57g and 114g were added (total 323g) raising the pH to 12.8

The mixture was then stirred for several minutes and left to settle overnight.

A beer was then cracked open and the photos uploaded :)

raw.JPG - 242kB separated.JPG - 236kB fine.JPG - 175kB slurry.JPG - 236kB

battoussai114 - 5-6-2016 at 08:26

Aight, I want to try this too. Except it's been raining like hell (does it rain in hell?) :(

Anyone knows how well Pt group particles seep into wet soil? There are these water retention lakes (tiny lakes, more like ponds) beside the roads here and if the Pt doesn't go through soil very easily there should be extra high concentration in the bottom of these ponds, and I could easily get samples once the weather gets sunny and the water evaporates.

[Edited on 5-6-2016 by battoussai114]

[Edited on 5-6-2016 by battoussai114]

aga - 5-6-2016 at 08:42

I did a quick survely of the roads here and they all have run-off water channels leading down to the rivers/sewers, which basically means that any Pt in the rainwater will end up in the sea.

Your 'holding pond' sounds like a good place to get better Pt concentrations.

unionised - 5-6-2016 at 09:12

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  


Think about it, if conditions are so extreme to repel the PGM particles off the surface of the catalyst support, those same conditions will not have them stick to any other surface present in the dirt, they too would charge up at high pH!

I did think about it.
You say "if conditions are so extreme to repel the PGM particles off the surface of the catalyst support..."
Well, what if they are not?
What if the Pt sticks to the remaining sludgy stuff?
What's to stop it doing so?

Do you know that road dust is full of carbon black, both fromunburned fuel and from rubber tyres?
There's no strong reason why it will develop any charge at all.
And it's a conductor. So, in principle electrostatic forces will attract any charge particles to the surface.

So there's lots of sticky carbon for the Pt to stick to.
Do you have a reason to think it won't, or is it just wishful thinking.


deltaH - 5-6-2016 at 11:19

Aga, this is wonderful! I'm excited to see what you recover from the supernatant liquid. Thank you for assisting with the experimentation once again.

Your pH value sounds good, I think even 11 would have been ok. I would have tumbled or mixed the mud for some time to assist mechanically in breaking up the agglomerated catalyst particles, call it a gentle milling, but let's see how this turns out as is.

Unionised, no, not wishful thinking. Carbon blacks charge up negatively and form colloidal solutions in even weakly alkaline solutions, see http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.langmuir.5b02017 (figure 2 and the paragraph preceding in particular).

Quote:
The carbon black and diesel soot particles formed stable colloidal suspensions when dispersed in water. Although not necessarily representative of those suspensions formed in n-dodecane, such suspensions do enable aqueous electrophoresis studies to be conducted. The variation of both zeta potential and intensity-average particle diameter with solution pH for both colloidal substrates is shown in Figure 2. Carbon black aggregates are highly anionic (−30 to −45 mV) between pH 6 and pH 11. Below pH 6, the gradual reduction in surface charge leads to their progressive aggregation, from an initial characteristic sphere-equivalent diameter of 200 nm in alkaline media to flocs of more than 800 nm at an isoelectric point (IEP) of approximately pH 4.2 and micron-sized aggregates with appreciable cationic surface charge at pH 2–3. The diesel soot particles exhibit broadly similar behavior, but with some subtle differences. The aggregates formed in alkaline media are somewhat larger, with sphere-equivalent diameters of 400–440 nm and zeta potentials of around −40 mV; they remain more or less stable from pH 11 to around pH 4, with an isoelectric point at approximately pH 3. Micron-sized aggregates are formed between pH 2 and pH 3.


The same hold for most other materials you might care to mention. Most materials exposed to the element have surfaces that are well oxidised. That usually implies that their surfaces are peppered with -OH groups which are easily deprotonated at high pH, leading to negative charging and repulsion of particle to particle.

Things just don't stick well at high pH, it's one of the first things I learned in chemistry.










aga - 5-6-2016 at 11:53

Slight confusion over pH here and i appologise in advance to my most erstwhile tutors if i've messed this bit of maths up :

323g NaOH
=8.08 mols

12 litres of water
so [OH<sup>-</sup>] = 8.08/12 = 0.6733
pOH = -log(0.6733) = 0.1717 ~=0.2

pH = 14 - pOH
therefore the pH should be 13.8

... yet the digital meter reads a pH of 12.8.

Where did 3.42 x 10<sup>23</sup> ions of the OH<sup>-</sup> go ?

[Edited on 5-6-2016 by aga]

deltaH - 5-6-2016 at 12:33

There was probably something reacting with the very basic -OH to form something less basic, any number of inorganic oxides may have been responsible. Wishfully thinking it is the catalyst support material ;) but probably not.

It's a good sign, so don't worry about it. So long as your pH is above 10, I'd say we're good. I just hope you have enough supernatant liquid to decant. Might need to filter if not.

The tough bit is going to be smelting the concentrate. I think the carbon electrode arc is your best bet and simplest to rig. You'd need a high current source for the arc though, got a welding transformer or any largish transformer whose secondary you can rewind with thick cables?

The other challenge is going to be sourcing a high temperature refractory brick or making your own. NB. Get/make the type used for alkaline melts since your concentrate will be highly alkaline, these are derived from magnesium oxide and not the white alumina silicates. if you use an alkaline refractory, you won't need a crucible, just bore out the centre, careful not to crack it.

If you can only find the alumina-silicate bricks, then coat the inside with powdered magnesium oxide mixed with a little salted water. The chlorides will cement the MgO particles together at high temperature while the partial hydrolysis when mixed with a little water will make the paste set after mixing so that it temporarily stays put until you fire it for the first time.



aga - 5-6-2016 at 12:43

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
There was probably something reacting with the very basic -OH

How DARE they ?!?!

This bucket was clearly marked 'not for chemical reactions' so they have no excuses at all.

I will go and have a Word with them right now.

A stick welding rig exists as do various refractory bricks, so i just need some carbon rods.

I'd guestimate about 8 to 10 litres of supernatant.

[Edited on 5-6-2016 by aga]

deltaH - 5-6-2016 at 12:54

Fantastic news! Sounds like you have matters well in hand.

Don't worry if your supernatant doesn't turn completely clear, it's not supposed to. Colloids scatter light.

You just don't want the large particles of dirt when you decant. Hopefully you get a greyish liquid. If not, give it a swirl and wait only a few minutes before decanting.

In fact, there might be no need to wait terribly long at all, just long enough to separate out the bulk of the big particles.

I'm clocking out for tonight.

[Edited on 5-6-2016 by deltaH]

deltaH - 5-6-2016 at 23:08

Quote: Originally posted by battoussai114  
Aight, I want to try this too. Except it's been raining like hell (does it rain in hell?) :(

Anyone knows how well Pt group particles seep into wet soil? There are these water retention lakes (tiny lakes, more like ponds) beside the roads here and if the Pt doesn't go through soil very easily there should be extra high concentration in the bottom of these ponds, and I could easily get samples once the weather gets sunny and the water evaporates.

[Edited on 5-6-2016 by battoussai114]

[Edited on 5-6-2016 by battoussai114]


battoussai114, sorry, but I do not know. I can speculate that since the PGM catalysts are made by impregnating low density supports materials, the result is a low density material and so I would guess that they concentrate in the top layer of pond sediment? You'd have to try and see.

deltaH - 5-6-2016 at 23:16

I wonder who owns this dirt from roads? Is it the government's because they own the roads? What if it's a toll road?

If so and if there's any money in it, they would lay claim to it ASAP, but I imagine that it would be hard to enforce it.

A new kind of poaching would spring up. Roadside poaching or roaching. People doing it would thus be called roaches, which fits as presumably they would come out at night to sweep up the dirt.

I can just see the reality TV series in my mind...

Unfortunately, this is all fantasy for now lol

[Edited on 6-6-2016 by deltaH]

aga - 6-6-2016 at 12:33

It's Mine all Mine.

That's why us 'roaches call it 'mining'.

Here's what the top layer of the dust/mud/NaOH looks like after 24hrs or so :

24hrsinNaOH.JPG - 121kB

[Edited on 6-6-2016 by aga]

deltaH - 6-6-2016 at 21:07

This looks super fantastic aga! Now you just need to boil it down or if it's hot and sunny outside, put it in a tray to evaporate for a few days.

If you do go the heating route, be wary not to lose it by splattering as it might get thick at the end.

What's it's volume btw?

You could probably get more of it out with a couple of repeated wash and decants if you really wanted to, but you're probably not to hung up on getting maximum recovery just now.

Well done!

PS. Sorry, didn't mean to call you a roach, tactless moment, just thought it was funny that road poaching = roaching.

[Edited on 7-6-2016 by deltaH]

deltaH - 6-6-2016 at 21:48


WARNING:

Please people take great care not to be hit by cars, drivers don't always pay to much attention to the shoulder of the road and at night it gets worse! High visibility is key, wear reflectors and bright colours if collecting the dirt and be vigilant of traffic at all times! Working at night is not advisable and if you really must, attach signal lights to your body for maximum visibility.


[Edited on 7-6-2016 by deltaH]

aga - 7-6-2016 at 00:32

Pt miner's safety manual :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BrivBSv20Y

The liquid is a kind of murky suspension of a lot of the fine material, which will have included quite a lot of organic material.

Do you think it should be coarse-filtered before evaporating off the water ?

If not, the result will probably be a mud cake.

[Edited on 7-6-2016 by aga]

deltaH - 7-6-2016 at 00:57

I wouldn't filter it, the fines may also contain PGMs. I'd just get rid of the water, i.e. oven, sun, boil etc.

Then time to smelt the sucker in an arc.

When you get to that stage, make sure to leave it in the arc long enough. You need extremely high temperatures to melt PGMs (1800C), which isn't achieved quickly. Also, insulate, insulate, insulate. A small box design of refractory bricks is best.

[Edited on 7-6-2016 by deltaH]

unionised - 7-6-2016 at 13:11

Just out of idle curiosity, what do you plan to use as a crucible?

aga - 7-6-2016 at 13:37

I've got 1 of these :

http://artisanfoundry.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=110

Embarassingly i cannot remember if it's an A1, A2, A3 etc.

NaOH certainly chews through whatever that material is : i used to have two ...

For this particular melt i plan on making something from fire bricks.

Whether any particular available brick works well for this (or not) is totally unknown at this time, at least to me.

deltaH - 10-6-2016 at 11:00

Any update on the evaporation of the colloidal concentrate?



aga - 10-6-2016 at 11:27

The thick brackish brown liquid got poured off and left out in a bucket.

Over the past 2 days it's been 36 C+ during the day.

I'll go take a photo. 1 sec.

Edit:

This is the liquidus in the specialised evaporation apparatus ;)

liquid.JPG - 151kB

Approx 4.3cm reduction in height of the liquid over the past 4 days :

evap.JPG - 166kB

The mud left in the original bucket :
mud.JPG - 197kB


[Edited on 10-6-2016 by aga]

MrHomeScientist - 10-6-2016 at 11:40

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Where did 3.42 x 10<sup>23</sup> ions of the OH<sup>-</sup> go ?

This is a bit old to jump in, but remember that hydroxides can have quite a bit of water of hydration; KOH in particular can be up to 15% water by weight. I always use more hydroxide than calculated to account for this unknown.

aga - 10-6-2016 at 11:58

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
This is a bit old to jump in, but remember that hydroxides can have quite a bit of water of hydration

Better late than never !

Yes, the NaOH i get locally is of dubious purity, let alone hydration state.

deltaH - 10-6-2016 at 23:22

This is looking very good, looks like it might be done in a few more days.

I have been thinking about the smelting step. I am a bit dubious whether 1800C can be uniformly reached without flushing a graphite crucible with argon gas. (like what they did in that clip when they arc smelted tungsten). So since you probably don't have argon gas to prevent the crucible from enflaming, I suggest using a lower melting alloying metal which can be dissolved out later, say with nitric acid, to leave behind a PGM residue

The problem is that the only metal I can think of that would do the job well is silver. Furthermore, you need the silver to be thoroughly deposited evenly over the catalyst. Fortunately, this is easy to do with silver nitrate. So I would wet the residue with a concentrated solution of silver nitrate, let dry, then smelt. The silver nitrate would rapidly decompose to silver particles within the material depositing everywhere internally.

Silver has a low melting point and is inert, so it's easily smelted in an amateur context. A large silver bead is also easily collected.

Then the silver bead can be dissolved in boiling nitric acid to once again make a solution of silver nitrate (which can be re-used in the process) and leave behind a residue of PGM powder which can then be dissolved in hot aqua regia to yield an orange solution if successful.

If you don't have silver nitrate, you can prepare it easily from a small piece of silver and nitric acid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6hPgGV_qAg

j_sum1 - 10-6-2016 at 23:36

I am watching this all with interest.
Actually though, my thoughts are trending in a different direction. I think I might follow Cody's procedure to the letter and end up with a little pinhead of PGM. This will be good for the element collection -- after all, for my collection what I want is the story behind each element. And a little impure bump dragged off the road edge says a lot more than a cm of Pt wire.

aga - 10-6-2016 at 23:51

Still got that mol of AgNO3 i bought from hegi.

Hitting 1800C+ with a rigged up arc should work.

More worrying is silver's boiling point ...

unionised - 11-6-2016 at 02:25

i think you might need to look at magnesia or zirconia crucibles to stand up to the molten alkali.

deltaH - 11-6-2016 at 02:59

Yes, the magnesia was mentioned already due to the basiscity of the concentrate.

I think it's a must if you're smelting straight.

As for the silver, yes, useless in an arc. That version would be for a improvised gas or charcoal furnace.

Aga, I really think you need to make yourself a magnesia crucible.

deltaH - 11-6-2016 at 03:02

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
I am watching this all with interest.
Actually though, my thoughts are trending in a different direction. I think I might follow Cody's procedure to the letter and end up with a little pinhead of PGM. This will be good for the element collection -- after all, for my collection what I want is the story behind each element. And a little impure bump dragged off the road edge says a lot more than a cm of Pt wire.


Welcome jsum! :)

battoussai114 - 11-6-2016 at 08:49

It's been sunny for a couple days and the ponds are slowly drying (very slowly since lately it hits 17ºC outside at best).
Anyone has experience with those gravimetric concentrators used in mining? I've seen mentioning of Falcon Concentrators in a platinum extraction patent and I'm curious about how these work.

minstarmin - 12-6-2016 at 16:30

Only Cody's Lab would have thought up something like this. :P

aga - 13-6-2016 at 05:55

Quote: Originally posted by minstarmin  
Only Cody's Lab would have thought up something like this. :P

Quote: Originally posted by MeshPL  
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2976623/Road-dust-can...

Cody wasn't the first one to think about it.

Here's a paper on a subject:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15050388

But it is 12 years old and since that amount of platinum in exhaust catalysts may have increased.


Edit:

Drawn a blank on 'lantern batteries' out here, so had to order some graphite rods from ebay :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162029034602?_trksid=p2057872.m274...

[Edited on 13-6-2016 by aga]

deltaH - 14-6-2016 at 23:26

Rods look good. How's the concentrate evaporation proceeding? Should make masses of sodium carbonate at the end because of the high soda content. Hoping all that alkali will act as a flux to melt the silica content of the concentrate, forming sodium silicate rich melts.

aga - 15-6-2016 at 03:30

Heatwave ! 41 C yesterday, and very windy.

There's about an inch left to evaporate off.

ptmush.JPG - 231kB

blogfast25 - 15-6-2016 at 11:04

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Heatwave ! 41 C yesterday, and very windy.

There's about an inch left to evaporate off.



What's evaporating off there?

aga - 15-6-2016 at 11:50

Water.

It's an old paint bucket: the flaky bits are paint.

deltaH - 15-6-2016 at 12:41

Colour looks a lot lighter than before or is that just the bright sunlight?

blogfast25 - 15-6-2016 at 12:50

Finally got round to reading all of this thread. I've gotta say I'm quite sceptical of some of deltaH's assumptions. I guess we'll find out soon now.

The main problem is that we simply don't know whether the raw sample contains any Pt at all: that's a poor starting point for testing an extraction method. :(

aga - 15-6-2016 at 13:01

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
that's a poor starting point for testing an extraction method.

Hang on in there and Keep the Faith dude.

There's no tried-and-tested 'method' here.

Dangerous and Unreferenced Speculation is deltaH's speciality.

All he needs to find out one way or another is some unsuspecting idiot who will try the crazy ideas out.

Any numbskull will do, just one ... who ...

DOH !

deltaH - 15-6-2016 at 13:11

:D

Cucurbit - 18-6-2016 at 19:33

Looks promising!

Just make sure the instructions for the molecules are written on the inside of the bucket so they can read it ;)

deltaH - 22-6-2016 at 22:02

aga, have your electrodes arrived yet? Is the concentrate dry?

aga - 23-6-2016 at 00:04

No electrodes yet.

The remains of the sludge got washed out of that crappy bucket a couple of days ago and stuck on a tray. Almost dried.

sludge.JPG - 177kB

deltaH - 23-6-2016 at 00:53

Thanks for posting the pic, it looks very promising, can't wait for the next stage! Hope the electrodes arrive soon.

Chem Rage - 24-6-2016 at 13:19

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
No electrodes yet.

The remains of the sludge got washed out of that crappy bucket a couple of days ago and stuck on a tray. Almost dried.



Looks deliciously appetizing! :P

aga - 24-6-2016 at 13:33

50p a slice plus postage.

Fleaker - 26-6-2016 at 08:32

Unfortunately, even wavelength dispersive XRF will have trouble seeing the PGM content unless it is very close to the road and in a concentrated pocket.


If I tasked with the analysis of road side dirt (which is funny, because it's probably one of the few weird things I have not processed in doing this PGM chemistry as a living), I would start with a nickel sulfide collection and go from there first with base metal sulfide removal with dilute HCl, filter on a Whatman 42, ash, reduce Pd/Rh w/ borohydride, dissolve residue in microwave and run on my ICP-OES.

Hell, on 100 kg of dirt with sufficient NiS you'll probably end up with enough platinum to see :)

The jersey rebel - 9-10-2016 at 07:33

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Depending on rainfall, getting your hands on the dust might be economically viable.

Rain washes stuff into the sewers/storm drains.

Periodically these need to have the silt cleaned out, which is a service that the town council generally pay for, as the waste (in the UK at least) is classified as 'contaminated' due to the oils & tars from the tarmac.

The waste companies have to pay to dispose of the silt.

If you could work out how to profitably process the silt (and dispose of the residues) you'd simply offer a free disposal service to the waste companies, and they'd collect/transport the silt to your facility for free.


So the silt will probably contain far more PGM's since the oils and tar mixture sort of act like clay in a gold mine. The best process I can think of is to first heat it to pyrolyze the oil and tar. Then take the ash and mix it up with an oxidizer such as KNO3 to strip the carbon out. Both of these steps also serve to aggregate the particles a bit. Then put the ash in a furnace along with a bit of copper to act as a collector metal. Some flux (NaCO3/borax/MnO2) is then added and it is heated to about 1200 celcius with occasional stirring with a graphite rod. Then the copper alloy is electrorefined and the anode slimes are saved. Melt it under an arc and then you have the final product unless you are looking for extremely pure platinum which will require a lot more work

aga - 9-10-2016 at 09:00

There's a 1 litre pot of the NaOH treated roadside dirt hanging about at the back of my fume hood.

Still not found any high temperature fire bricks yet, but the plan is to follow thru on deltaH's suggested process.

The Arc is ready and temperatures in the Shed are dropping from the normal Summer 45 C (just 30 C today) so things may start happening soon ...

MeshPL - 17-10-2016 at 12:13

The real problem is that to achieve 1800C you need really good fire bricks. Typicall grog fire bricks melt at 1780C. I'm not sure what typicall insulating fire bricks are made of, but those which are not insulating are usually made of said material. Maybe expanded perlite, but this will also will likely be insufficient.

aga - 17-10-2016 at 12:40

I got some grade 28's on order, rated to 1,560 C.

(apparently grade 32 goes up to 1760 C, but there were none to be had)

Around that will be other 'normal' firebricks, which IIRC are rated to 1,300 C.

Will it Blend ?

Dunno. Gonna find out when they arrive.

Edit:

The specs say they are made of 'aluminosilicate' in varying proportions, and then have been set in a foam kinda structure.

[Edited on 17-10-2016 by aga]

yobbo II - 19-10-2016 at 16:15

Some nice (terrible expensive) bricks here

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/REFRACTORY-BRICK-HIGH-TEMPERATURE-...

How do you intent to heat this thing?

aga - 19-10-2016 at 17:15

Gotta go with what i'm gonna get.

Heating, as stated, will be an electric arc. Possibly 2000 C plus. No idea.

Those inadequate (for the purpose) bricks, stick welding rig and some graphite rods.

Dunno until i try it, then will probably still not know exactly how hot.

Mucho Calor. Muuuuncho.

densest - 3-11-2016 at 13:13

IIRC a hydrogen-oxygen torch is hot enough to melt platinum. A 250 cu ft. tank of each might cost $US 50. There's a reason not to use acetylene but I can't remember it. I think the idea of a solvent metal is good. Iron leaches gold, copper leaches silver.

Is there any reason why the dried material must be basic?

If the colloidal material only floats in a basic environment, one way to concentrate it would be to take the murky basic suspension and acidify it. Hypothetically a precipitate would form concentrated in the desired Pt + SiO2

One thought, though: SiO2 + NaOH -> sodium silicate which is more or less soluble. If that reaction occurs, the PGMs will precipitate. The reaction is normally slow. The extremely large surface area would speed it up a lot.

It would help a lot to determine what the composition of the rest of the road dust is. Rock dust from the gravel in the road surface? Brake shoe dust? Asphalt? Rust? Cigarette butts? Chewing gum? Tire rubber? Rust/steel powder from the belts in the tires? Glass fibers from tire belts?


I'd recommend decanting and acidifying quickly.

[Edited on 3-11-2016 by densest]

aga - 3-11-2016 at 14:00

Not a clue.

I guess i got to zap the NaOH dirt mixture.

I think it's Fear that has stopped me doing it earlier.