Recently I become really irritated by all those posts of "swim" and variations on it of the form swi*. There is an explosion of this type of posts
since a few weeks, especially in the section on organic chemistry. Sometimes this gives me the feeling as if I'm on a forum of meth-cooks and
numb-minded drugs-addicted poor guys. Also, this attitude is a serious threat for the hobby of home chemistry. An occasional visitor may be confirmed
in his/her ideas of many home chemists being drugs drools.
What can be done about that? Aren't we too friendly towards those cowards, who think they are smart with their abuse of this word. Frequently the
scientific contents of these posts also is embarrassing, but that is not the main reason of my irritation.
OK, I have had my ramble... just felt the need to to do. I like swimming on hot summer days and please let us keep the meaning of the word like that
.Polverone - 11-10-2006 at 01:06
I just searched. In the last week, there was one use of "swim" in the sense given here that went unchastised. I too believe that "swim" has no place
here. I read many but not all threads. All members should consider themselves deputized to chastise people who abuse "swim" and to report flagrant
cooking-threads to moderators.
Remember: I do not restrict discussion here based on the legal status of chemicals. I restrict it based on the communication, conduct, and attitude of
the participants. We don't want a bunch of people who are here to be spoonfed recipes for their favorite chemicals.
If someone wishes to describe something without using "I", don't use "swim"; simply eliminate the self-reference. Instead of (for example) "swim
dissolved 40 grams of sucrose in distilled water" or "swim was wondering where he could buy flowers of sulfur", the writer should say "40 grams of
sucrose were dissolved in distilled water" or "where can flowers of sulfur be purchased?"
Internet superstition aside, I don't think doing a search-and-replace of SWIM and I in your posts is really any less incriminating should the point
come where they are evidence against you in the criminal justice system. Laws are not computer programs that can be tricked or hacked with slightly
altered input.
[Edited on 10-11-2006 by Polverone]Sandmeyer - 11-10-2006 at 12:31
Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
Recently I become really irritated by all those posts of "swim" and variations on it of the form swi*.
I think it's silly, but I wouldn't get upset over it.
Quote:
There is an explosion of this type of posts since a few weeks, especially in the section on organic chemistry. Sometimes this gives me the feeling as
if I'm on a forum of meth-cooks and numb-minded drugs-addicted poor guys.
You really get that feeling? Well, consider taking a brake -- wetdreams is another "chemistry" forum ...
Quote:
Also, this attitude is a serious threat for the hobby of home chemistry.
The real threat to "home chemistry" is not trailor-bubba with his matches but the rise of fascism in EU/USA.
Quote:
An occasional visitor may be confirmed in his/her ideas of many home chemists being drugs drools.
Frankly, I don't care what a randomly-surfing MTV-zombie or anyone else gets as an idea of home chemistry when visiting sciencemadness and other
forums. There is enough of "don't-do-it-your-self-buy-it-instead-from-corporation-X" propaganda and demonization of chemistry in the media that an
occasional SWIM post here and there is insignificant.
Quote:
What can be done about that? Aren't we too friendly towards those cowards, who think they are smart with their abuse of this word.
Don't we have more importnant things to do/think about?
Quote:
Frequently the scientific contents of these posts also is embarrassing, but that is not the main reason of my irritation.
But what's the main reason then?
[Edited on 11-10-2006 by Sandmeyer]Magpie - 11-10-2006 at 18:00
It seems that with "the hive" dysfunctional there are a lot of homeless bees desparately looking for somone to feed them. Swim and his buddies do
provide something of value to this forum, however: comic relief. Nicodem - 12-10-2006 at 10:55
I must admit that I also find all this SWIM-ing highly annoying. It took me quite some time to realize why. At first I also found it just as some sort
of comic relief. But then over years of seeing it used in several organic chemistry or drug forums I got really annoyed for each time I got to read
it. I now believe the reason why it annoys me is simply because I learned to connect it with ignorance, misinformation, amphetamine psychosis,
stupidity, greed, scientific disregard and several other values I find disgraceful.
As I see it now, those who want to SWIM should be allowed to do so, but at the same time all these SWIMs should in turn allow to being ridiculed,
mislead or ignored. This is in my opinion fully legitimate since no poster would be targeted, but only some third party, a certain SWIM, whoever that
is, or whoever dares to identify under such a stupid name.
PS: Lately there has been an influx of SWIM-ers, which is in my opinion, due to Wetdreams forum malfunctioning. Therefore several wanabee meth-cooks
thought to abuse other forums as their SWIM-ing "pool". But I surely don't find it worrisome that a casual forum visitor might find SWIM-er's posts as
an indication that this forum is some kind of drug forum (If so, who cares?). What should be worrisome is that SWIM-er's posts indicate a
severe regression in posting quality, misleading others in using the same low level of posting quality. It is not easy to improve the level of
discussion in such a forum like this one. It takes many years of evolution. But it is very easy to deteriorate it. It only takes several such posts,
concentrating the worst discourse possible, as an impetus to start a downhill domino effect.12AX7 - 12-10-2006 at 11:07
Agreed.
Not only does SWIM usually show reduced intelligence, but the poster presenting SWIM's questions usually can't type English worth a damn either.
TimElawr - 12-10-2006 at 14:57
Count me in too! I'm tired of all those meth-head SWIMer types running around, posting all their cookbook recreational drug-oriented drivel on our
forum. Gets on my nerves. So lets give'm hell. If I read any more SWIM posts, I'm gonna tell the poster he/she better not do that any more, and if he
does, he's just asking to get taunted. I've got an acid tongue, and I can can go vitriolic if I have to!jack-sparrow - 13-10-2006 at 04:24
It may sound stupid, but what does SWIM means ?YT2095 - 13-10-2006 at 05:44
Someone Without Inteligence Mainly.woelen - 13-10-2006 at 05:51
I don't want to be associated with drugs-addicted drools, with their brains rotten away, and in such a deplorable state, that they even cannot write a
normal correct sentence anymore (even if their native language is English).
[Edited on 13-10-06 by woelen]daeron - 13-10-2006 at 09:02
Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
I don't want to be associated with drugs-addicted drools, with their brains rotten away, and in such a deplorable state, that they even cannot write a
normal correct sentence anymore (even if their native language is English).
[Edited on 13-10-06 by woelen]
oh so you want to be associated with bigots only then?
yes i am fond of the swim thing,and am proud to say that swim has been a part of the internet drug circles for a very long time now;and swim is not a
retarded cook or a chemhack,so tell me why are You,the so elitist
oriented serious scientist willing to group all under one roof?
what you present here is flaming a rant of bigotry, and childish conceptions of drug use,and if you expected to show your high intellectual
capabilities with this,you have shown just the opposite.
oh how sorry i...swim is that his drug plundered brain is so feeble that am i not able to even start to conceive the greater workings of your
genius...pfff.YT2095 - 13-10-2006 at 09:17
then perhaps SWIY would care to enlighten us all as to WHY you use such a ridiculously transparent mnemonic, that only a total fu(kt@rd can`t see
through?
What purpose does it serve?daeron - 13-10-2006 at 10:00
Do you know why the swim thing appeared?Because of the same “retards” you flame here.So you wouldn’t have people starting their posts with “I
have a kilo of mdp2p”.You think it is because of the safety of the poster?Sheesh it is because of the safety of the FORUM.What it is going to
be-swim,elfs,flying bricks or friggin daffodils it is the choice of the poster, and no one has the right even to argue about these things…unless you
want to go synthetikal on our asses,hmm?
And apropos the law thing Polverone, you would be surprised that you are wrong about this. Laws are just written rules prone to interpretation, and
SWIM actually knows of a case (and had personal experience with this too) that a SWIM-like concept made a bee free. Not all of us live in that nazi
place in the west,yknow.
I still don’t understand the point of this thread? What do you want to accomplish? This isnt a complaint against the quality of the posts as i see.
What is the purpose? Flame the meth cooks,or to show your despise for the drug culture or the bees? Or is it just a poor attempt at an intellectual
dickwaving?YT2095 - 13-10-2006 at 10:10
and how exactly does using "swim" protect a Forum then? is it a Google glitch whereby it cannot/will not list such posts or sites that contain this?
and lets face it, even if it was, it`s Hardly elegant is it!?jim20/20 - 13-10-2006 at 11:39
Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
Also, this attitude is a serious threat for the hobby of home chemistry. An occasional visitor may be confirmed in his/her ideas of many home chemists
being drugs drools.
an occasional visitor may be confirmed in his/her ideas of many home chemists being bomb makers or would be mass poisoners
these subjects scare the public not the language used
discuss and you feed the fear dont discuss and you have a very safe forum its a catch 22chromium - 13-10-2006 at 12:42
Quote:
Originally posted by daeron
You think it is because of the safety of the poster?Sheesh it is because of the safety of the FORUM.
I understand what do you mean but such ways for safety are needed in forums that deal mostly with drugs or other clearly illegal activities. This
forum does not need such kind of protection. On the contrary, swiming makes it look more like we were dealing with illegal stuff.
Almost all members here are interested in other parts of chemistry, not that much in the drug related stuff. For us drug discussions, especially when
put rather unintelligent way, are not that interesting - but can well lead to problems. So why do you think, we should be that kind to those who come
here not caring about the future of this forum just wishing to get some easy recipie and then (most probably) run away not contributing anything
useful?
[Edited on 13-10-2006 by chromium]Chris The Great - 13-10-2006 at 14:02
I'd like to point out there have been several very interesting drug threads that have popped up- they all dealt with novel reactions or methods, had
plenty of intelligent (and readable!) posting, etc etc, which I found quite interesting even though it wasn't in my "field" at all. We've also had
quite a few "swim cant get his nitrostyrene to reduce got red solution wahts wrong?" posts by somebody with a single digit post count.
IMO it's just the normally infuriating newbie questions like those, combined with the fact the newbie is trying to cook drugs, that give this whole
SWIM thing such a dislike amoung the posters here. If SWIM showed up and posted with proper English and detailed some novel chemistry and reactions
(which gave a drug as the final product), I'm sure most of you wouldn't have much of a problem with it.
Well, that's my view.ordenblitz - 13-10-2006 at 16:47
Exactly!
This has less to do about what you chose to practice chemistry on, and more about your language and diction.
Swibonics not spoken here!!The_Davster - 13-10-2006 at 19:15
Quote:
Originally posted by Sandmeyer
The real threat to "home chemistry" is not trailor-bubba with his matches but the rise of fascism in EU/USA.
I agree with woelen about the SWIM and drug stuff here, I personally don't like it one bit. It (and my Kewl username) is what is preventing me from
refering a couple professors of mine to this site. But I also agree with Sandmeyer's above quote, but on a fundamental, rather than practical level.
Sure, it would be ideal if anything could be discussed, my personal convictions aside, but these days with chemistry becoming criminal almost, and
drug stuff on par with thoughtcrime, I believe a more hardline stance against such things would help ensure longterm survival of this site.
I guess it comes to whether we want to be fundamentalists and perhaps not last as long, or sacrifice some things for long term survival.
EDIT: I have no objection to the way that things such as this are discussed by people like Orgie or Flip or some others but some stuff like: https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=6733 https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=6292
I am surprised was not detritus-ed
The latter got interesting later in the thread....but the inital question I don't think should be allowed to be asked. Some big complicated synth of
some crazy designer drug of sorts...who cares, mainly those who are into that will get it(half the time I am only partly sure about some of the big
organics discussed), but the synth of something as commonly known to the sheeple as meth is, is what I am against. Yes, it was worded in corect
manner and avoided the apreviations commonly used by SWIMs, but the subject matter...We have that rule against piss-easy energetics like peroxides,
why not apply it here as well?
[Edited on 14-10-2006 by rogue chemist]Thermal - 13-10-2006 at 22:25
Myself being guilty of said "indiscretion" on occasion, even not being a regular poster (i.e. It's doubtful anybody gives a shit), can't help but be a
little insulted. It does seem a tad bigoted.
However given the general consensus on the board I'd like to hereby apologize; and will refrain from using the acronym in the future.
As an aside - I hate meth, would never take it or synth it, and can't stand most meth users. But it's just a chemical. The blame rests on the
person, not the chemical or the words.
-+Cheers
[Edited on 14-10-2006 by Thermal]Elawr - 24-10-2006 at 01:36
This issue has much to do with maturity and discipline as it does the use or misuse of any given substance. The practice of chemistry is a very hard
thing to learn. It takes years to aquire good working knowledge of even the basics. You have to be a good ways ahead of the pack IQ-wise to boot. But
what you get in return is the power to manipulate matter in ways nobody ever dreamed of. Do all kind of cool things like make fire, tweak your brain
chemistry any which way, and blow shit up. This is true power - and dangerous. Its a good thing chemistry is hard to learn, because the learning
leads to wisdom and judgement needed to wield it safely - which this forum always advocates.
Everybody here, or mostly I hope have gone through and survived the dangerous adolescent stage of development where you engage in risk-seeking
behavior. Mind-altering drugs and explosives are particularly seductive to the immature individual whose goal is immediate sensory gratification as
opposed to intellectual growth and mastery of the science. Thus the phenomenon of the "kewl".
We should keep this in mind when we respond to the SWIM posts. Many will grow out of it in time. We can help them along by educating them in a
positive way . Sometimes judicious taunting, ignoring, and other means of negative reinforcement are needed but not too much negative. And always with
a good sense of humor. Don't want to turn them against the science if we can help it. We want them to grow up and maybe be like us... or maybe not?12AX7 - 24-10-2006 at 08:34
Well said.
TimBlind Angel - 24-10-2006 at 11:45
I second, even though I don't like the use of SWIM, I don't think that it's that much of an offence. I'd be up to guide the user to more correct form
of protocol, like using impersonnal writting (take a look at Shulgin's work, it's all into an impersonnal form, like if he watched the experience
instead of doing it). I do have some post on this forum which I don't personnally like, and to be honest lately I simply refuse myself to post into
thread which contain part that I don't understand, that's because i still consider myself to be too ignorant on most of the topic. I'm waiting.
I'm getting out of the topic atm sorry, what I mean is: we don't really have to bans out the usage of SWIM and reprimand the user, simply show a
better way by posting our own experience using a informal style. I would like to mention that even though the case of SWIM is used a lot into
psychoactive-chemistry, I've seen it a bit use into energetical-chemistry, so we shouldn't make a direct correlation yet.
Conclusion: let's develop guideline on how to write into and impersonnal style. I could work on a post like that or anybody with more experience in
protocol developpement (I have no experience yet into protocol creation, I'm starting to grasp the importance and concept of lab note), this would be
a) a very interesting post on side of basic chemistry knowledge and b) could also help to build a nice and clean style to any post, even if they are a
bit k3wl-ish on the side, thus affecting less the mean average that some (including myself) want to keep.
My humble opinion.Sergei_Eisenstein - 24-10-2006 at 12:29
If there's something I hate more then SWIMs, than that's more rules! Few rules are good because it means breaking the rules is hard. Also, in my
opinion, many rules are the result of a society where people don't understand eachother well. I run into chemistry because it allows me to escape the
daily zombie process. I would seriously dislike it if it became a reflection of daily life. I suggest either to (1) ignore, or (2) bash the hell out
of them. Not when they SWIM; only when they SWIM and tell us in great detail about the mAgic pill extractor, how they gas with HCI, when they
heroicly state they've extracted P from cow dung, or when they ask for a company where they can purchase DH2O. Perhaps Polv can create a "bash corner"
next to detrius
My opinion of many of these meth-cooks obviously is very low. This is not because they cook (sic) meth; it's rather because they're interest is in the
end product and not in the methods to get there. Imagine people flooding the forum, "As-salaamu Alaikum, I wonna kaboom BIG house. can I do this with
fertiliser? HELP!" I guess you see that reeducation is not a fertile solution here. I see it like this for the SWIM - HCI gas - pill xtractor types.
Reeducation is a waste of time.Blind Angel - 24-10-2006 at 13:10
To be honest I didn't saw that much of what you're talking about yet, yes we had some minor incursion but they we're mostly short lived and not
noticeable. As you said more rules is not really better, and I don't think that making a rules for exception is better too. Until this become a
plague, I don't think that we should be too hard. I know most of you will say that better be safe than sorry, but in that case we shouldn't be too
much on the aseptic side. When The-Hive closed, we did gather some of the bees and with them came some of the Varroa Destructor (see Wikipedia) but we
must make the discernement between the good bee who actually bring someting here, and some do it very well, and the parasit that came with them. Also
The-Hive has been closed for about 2 years, I do think that this thrend is going down and what is now popping up is more what we call more commonly
newbies which need to be educated, or they'll turn noobs.
Bashing is out of solution to me, it's useless, it's like giving benzodiazepines to everybody who has a small depression state (which is actually
done), you help create the monster in that case. I'm still heading for reeducation solution. (Ref: ANDERSON, Hans Christain, "The Ugly Duckling",
1843)Elawr - 25-10-2006 at 07:15
I must agree with the Blind Angel. Indiscriminant "bashing" generally only inflames the aforeto mentioned problems more than it helps. We are into
science here, not flame wars. Don't want to end up like the hive. Or like another chemistry forum on usnet I have not bothered to waste time with in
quite a long while. Anyone know of the entity who goes by the handle "Uncle Al"?
After I stumbling upon this forum it took little time to realize I'd found a rare gem. A solid core of scientists with a steady stream of new users
signing up, most of which submit maybe one post, if any. If but even if only 1 or 2 out of every hundred of these becomes a regular contributor then
this forum will do great.
This is a new thing for me - a forum on the internet I've actually grown not only to care about, but also try and help it continue to improve. We got
a good thing going here. The users we need to discourage become obvious very quickly. And the more I think about it, the more I like ignoring as a
response to K3wl/swim/stupid/whatever/etc. Just IGNORE 'em - no reponse at all, like they didn't exist, like they are not even worth the effort of
lifting fingers to the keyboard. Sure, at first they come back with a few indignant retorts, then they'll just get bored with it and go away. And good
riddance.
On the other hand, are the bright kids (and adults) who show up all the time genuinely interested in chemistry. You know the ones The ones who can't
stay out of the hypochlorite bleach, the muriatic acid, the borax, peroxide, and whatever else they can get their hands on, and generally are driving
their parents (or spouses) nuts. You know who they are. These young ones are who we need to go all out and bend over backwards trying to encourage.
They are the future.woelen - 25-10-2006 at 22:57
Oh yes, I know Uncle Al and had a few encounters with him. There is more to tell about that, but that's not the topic here. And what to say about
Hanson...
But, I agree very much with Elawr. Sciencemadness is one of those rare gems, which belongs to the top of the chemistry forums. Real chemistry, with
active members, who actually DO chemistry. I also strongly agree that we should encourage the newbies, who do chemistry with everything they find
around them. That is how I started myself many years ago. And yes, it is easy to distinguish these from the other newbies, who just want a quick
KABOOM, or who just want more pills.Sandmeyer - 26-10-2006 at 14:00
Quote:
Originally posted by Blind Angel
Bashing is out of solution to me, it's useless, it's like giving benzodiazepines to everybody who has a small depression state (which is actually
done), you help create the monster in that case.
Roche "Pharmaceuticals" Inc. CEO carrying his victim:
[Edited on 26-10-2006 by Sandmeyer]Baphomet - 20-11-2006 at 22:07
I've just been assured by a lawyer friend that SWIM does work in a legal sense, at least in our jurisdiction, because it turns a confession into a
hypothetical statement.
Having said that I agree with the rest of you and think that it's an annoying and low-brow expression. It's much better to impersonalise an article or
post like Polverone suggested.
It has the added benefit of being more 'clinical' as well. That is the way professional scientists deliver their dissertations.Quantum - 1-12-2006 at 21:47
I don't like the typical swim poster because of course they are so drug focused it's like a slap in the face and even worse they never seem to be able
to type or know much about chemistry. Now on the other hand sometimes someone with a HIVE background will use the swim-word yet they have a well
craftd post that is interesting, readable and of quality.
I think a mild flame with a re-education *might* help in some cases but often times it will not. Many of these people cross post their question all
over the net and I'm not even sure some of them ever really will do any sort of reaction. It may be similar to idiots on gun forums that brag about
guns and want to know how to make a suppressor or whatnot but really never do.Maya - 2-12-2006 at 12:28
<< On the other hand, are the bright kids (and adults) who show up all the time genuinely interested in chemistry. You know the ones The ones
who can't stay out of the hypochlorite bleach, the muriatic acid, the borax, peroxide, and whatever else they can get their hands on, and generally
are driving their parents (or spouses) nuts. You know who they are. These young ones are who we need to go all out and bend over backwards trying to
encourage. They are the future. >>
That's funny! Long time ago my middle school teacher would encourage me by giving me bottles of white Phosphorous, nitric acid, carbon disulphide and
other exotic chems. to do crazy experiments with.
I guess it worked cause it led me into a chem career
.
...
