Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Truly evil multiple choice question

j_sum1 - 6-9-2016 at 18:59

If you choose a random answer to this question, what is the chance that you would be correct?

A. 25%
B. 50%
C. 0%
D. 25%




I do have an answer to this question but I thought I would let it sit here for a few days of provocation before I give my thoughts.

Metacelsus - 6-9-2016 at 19:40

This is my take on it:
Assuming "choose a random answer" means "choose an answer listed below from A-D", this is a paradox.

If the actual answer is A, then there is a 50% chance of choosing the correct answer, since D is also 25%.
If the actual answer is B, then there is a 25% chance of choosing the correct answer.
If the actual answer is C, then there is a 25% chance of choosing the correct answer.
If the actual answer is D, then there is a 50% chance of choosing the correct answer, since A is also 25%.

None of these probabilities match with their listed chances. Therefore, none of the answers are correct.

Also, this seems more like a Whimsy topic.

Magpie - 6-9-2016 at 19:45

I have forgotten the math behind this but I will guess 1/3.

Texium - 6-9-2016 at 19:50

I've come to the same conclusion as Metacelsus. I look forward to having my mind blown.

I think this thread can stay here in Miscellaneous at least until the answer is given so more people have a chance to ponder it.

diddi - 6-9-2016 at 23:10

you are all looking at the value of the answer, not the answer "A","B", "C", "D"
if you think the value of the answer is "25%" and answer "A" but the correct answer is "D" then you would be incorrect.

there is a 1 in 4 chance of selecting the correct letter corresponding to the letter on the answer sheet
so my answer is 0.25

phlogiston - 7-9-2016 at 00:39

It lacks a definition of correct.

If one assumes that either 0%, 25% or 50% is a correct answer, then
if the answer is 0% you have a 25% of guessing correctly
if the answer is 25% you have a 50% of guessing correctly
if the answer is 50% you have a 25% of guessing correctly

If however the answer is "A" (or "B", "C" or "D"), then there is a 25% possibility of guessing it.

If, however, the correct answer is "elephant", then it is highly unlikely that you randomly answer that but not 0% (as evidenced by the fact that I just did).

Sulaiman - 7-9-2016 at 01:40

If you choose a random answer to this question,
what is the chance that you would be correct?

Answer : C = 0%

because RANDOM answers to this question include 3.14156, bannana, 1xRty4c ......
.i.e. there are an infinite number of RANDOM answers, the chance of being correct is zero.

wg48 - 7-9-2016 at 01:47

Assuming the obvious meaning

A and D (25%) must be incorrect because the chance you will pick them is 50%.

B 50% must be incorrect becuse the chance you will pick it is 25%

C 0% must be incorrect because the chance you will pick it is 25%

So none of the answers are correct but that would make C correct ???

It a variation on the "this statement is a lie" problem



j_sum1 - 7-9-2016 at 01:54

All doing well so far. At least one person has given what I would consider close to a correct answer but no one has fully explored the logic behind it.

[Edited on 7-9-2016 by j_sum1]

woelen - 7-9-2016 at 02:04

This is not a logical thing, but a play with language. It is of the same type as the following:

Can an omnipotent allmighty god make a stone which is so heavy that he cannot carry it along?

This sentence does play with language and does not tell anything about logic, nor about theology, nor about mathematical/boolean reasoning. We can contrive linguistic constructs which are inherently nonsensical.

I think that the multiple choice question of this thread belongs to the same class of constructs.

j_sum1 - 7-9-2016 at 02:14

Not entirely woelen. Language does come into it but there are some hidden assumptions as well. It is possible to make some progress towards a probable solution, and that using logical deductive reasoning. It is not of the same ilk as statements like, "This sentence is a lie".

Eddygp - 7-9-2016 at 03:17

37.5%

Sum 50%, 25%, 25%, 50% and when you divide by 4, you get the expected value (which in this case is a probability).

[Edited on 7-9-2016 by Eddygp]

woelen - 7-9-2016 at 03:39

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Not entirely woelen. Language does come into it but there are some hidden assumptions as well. It is possible to make some progress towards a probable solution, and that using logical deductive reasoning. It is not of the same ilk as statements like, "This sentence is a lie".

For me, it still remains a matter of language. The answer to this question is indeterminate (which is not the same as 0%).

Of course, I can think of a few hidden assumptions, but I am inclined to think that these are details, which are not really important for the nature of this question.
One of the assumptions, I see every one using here, is that with four answers, the chance of hitting one specific answer at random is 25%. This need not be true, there could be a non-uniform distribution, e.g. 10%, 10%, 40%, 40%. But whatever distribution you choose, the answer still remains indeterminate.

Another thing which is unclear is what is "correct". Someone else in this thread already stated that the concept of "correctness" must be explained precisely in this context. Is there one correct answer, or are there more correct answers?

So, I have the feeling that it is a matter of language, but most likely it is more subtle than the "this statement is not true" type of thing. Maybe it also has to do with "pulling yourself up on your own hair"? I'm not sure about that, I need to think things over a little more.

j_sum1 - 7-9-2016 at 04:00

@woelen

:)




[edit]

I have just typed up my answer which I will post on the weekend. You will see why I am smiling when you read it.

[Edited on 7-9-2016 by j_sum1]

CuReUS - 7-9-2016 at 04:26

apparently this is a well known question and has been discussed before - https://www.quora.com/If-you-choose-an-answer-to-this-questi...
the explanation by brady postma ( 2nd answer) seems to be the most logical

woelen - 7-9-2016 at 05:20

I do not agree with the answer in the quora thread. The intent of the author is taken into account and Brady in fact dismisses the question. If we have to add that kind of arguments, then indeed we'd better just as well stop this entire discussion, but I think that this is a too easy way of getting rid of the problem. It does not demonstrate the willingness to truly think over this interesting problem.

I am looking forward to j_sum1's answer!

Magpie - 7-9-2016 at 08:41

Without much effort I think I can refine my answer to:

>1/3 but <1/2

Now I will consult my freshman math book to see if I can further refine my answer. ;)

Hegi - 7-9-2016 at 10:38

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
Without much effort I think I can refine my answer to:

>1/3 but <1/2

Now I will consult my freshman math book to see if I can further refine my answer. ;)


Go for it. I also think the answer is in this interval.

aga - 7-9-2016 at 13:55

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
If you choose a random answer to this question, what is the chance that you would be correct?

There are no mathematical boundaries : it must be a linguistics problem.

The A,B,C,D values are red herrings, i.e. not part of the Question.

The question is fundamentally 'what is the chance of answering no specific question correctly ?'

I'll go for 0% as that's as close to 1/infinity as the available Answer options offer.

Edit:

Crap.

I don't have an infinite number of answers in my head, and the question would likely be asked by another Human, so likely i'd know at least some of what they know, so that'd make it significantly More likely that i could guess a correct answer.

Probably something to do with Money, Sex, Work or Other People, so more like 25%.

[Edited on 7-9-2016 by aga]

careysub - 7-9-2016 at 14:10

I think Woelen's first comment is on the money, that this is just a language game.

The "question":
"If you choose a random answer to this question, what is the chance that you would be correct?"
is not really a question at all, although it has the grammatical form of one.

It is exactly in the same class as any other implicitly self-referential language construct which has no truth value.

To bring the point home, what is "this question"? What is it asking?

The answer is nothing, it implies there is a question present, yet none is stated. The second phrase "what is the chance that you would be correct" should receive the response "about what?", no question was actually posed.

But what about those multiple choice looking things under the "question"?

Yes, what about them? They aren't referenced by the "question" and so are irrelevant to it.

If I had printed the same question above, say, and enumerated list of all mammal species, or the verses of the Bible, or the text of the U.S. Constitution, would you conclude they were an answer to the "question"? Irrelevant things are irrelevant.

If, as jsum_1 asserts, "there are some hidden assumptions as well" then he is tipping his hand that he (or rather the question) is cheating, and the "answer" that will be claimed depends on a problem definition that was not disclosed but will be assumed by the answerer as part of the answer. Different assumptions would give different answers, so there is no answer to the problem as presented.

NB: I could argue that a couple of answers are equally acceptable. I favor either 100% - in the sense that any answer to a vacuous statement is true in logic (vacuous truth), or else agreeing with phlogiston that it is "elephant" - since any answer at all is valid.

[Edited on 7-9-2016 by careysub]

careysub - 7-9-2016 at 14:14

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
If you choose a random answer to this question, what is the chance that you would be correct?

There are no mathematical boundaries : it must be a linguistics problem.

The A,B,C,D values are red herrings, i.e. not part of the Question.

...

[Edited on 7-9-2016 by aga]


Ooh.. you beat me to it on this crucial observation, while I was typing my answer above.

You are right.

They are red herrings, and if it is claimed that they are not, it is simply because the whole problem was not clearly stated. We can't answer a problem we are not correctly told.

aga - 7-9-2016 at 14:25

Sorry ! Bad timing on my part, seeing as you typed it out more thoroughly.

[Edited on 7-9-2016 by aga]

j_sum1 - 7-9-2016 at 14:26

Self-referential is not the same as self-contradictory. I could post a similar question where there were five options:
A. 0%
B. 20%
C. 40%
D. 60%
E. 80%


This is no less self-referential but does not obviously form a paradoxical situation. If I had posted this one it would not appear as intriguing a problem and would provoke little discussion. And yet, it would contain the same exact assumptions and inherent problems as the question I have actually posted. It is the cracking of those issues that I am interested in.

So, more than just linguistics. No red herrings. Some real deduction is required.

careysub - 7-9-2016 at 14:35

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Self-referential is not the same as self-contradictory. I could post a similar question where there were five options:
A. 0%
B. 20%
C. 40%
D. 60%
E. 80%


This is no less self-referential but does not obviously form a paradoxical situation. If I had posted this one it would not appear as intriguing a problem and would provoke little discussion. And yet, it would contain the same exact assumptions and inherent problems as the question I have actually posted. It is the cracking of those issues that I am interested in.

So, more than just linguistics. No red herrings. Some real deduction is required.


So tell us what those assumptions are. If doing so "gives it away" then you are only confirming my point.

And I did not say it was a "paradox", I said it had no truth value - i.e. it is meaningless. Many paradoxes have this property, but it is not limited to them. I don't think it is a paradox, with or without the original list of items or the new ones.

And I argue that changing the unreferenced "multiple choice" items doesn't change the 'question', or its answer, at all.

BTW: My favorite paradox is Newcomb's Paradox -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb%27s_paradox

[Edited on 7-9-2016 by careysub]

aga - 7-9-2016 at 14:39

Gah !
The Question, containing a reference to itself, is :

"If you choose a random answer to this question, what is the chance that you would be correct?"

The possible Answers are :
"A. 25%, B. 50%, C. 0%, D. 25%"

Logically, those answers form no part of the Question, yet they are the limited possible answers to the Question, so Do form part of the question/equation !

I need to drink more on this one.

[Edited on 7-9-2016 by aga]

careysub - 7-9-2016 at 14:43

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Gah !
Logically, the Question, containing a reference to itself, is :

"If you choose a random answer to this question, what is the chance that you would be correct?"

The possible Answers are :
"A. 25%, B. 50%, C. 0%, D. 25%"

Logically, those answers form no part of the Question : yet they are the limited possible answers to the Question, so Do form part of the question/equation !

I need to drink more on this one.


Yes, but that is now different from what was originally posed.

And what if it had been formulated as:
"If you choose a random answer to this question, what is the chance that you would be correct?"

The possible Answers are :
"A. 5, B. elephant, C. A, D. your momma"

j_sum1 - 7-9-2016 at 14:52

It is framed as a multiple-choice question and so the options given do form part of the question.
In any MC quiz that lacks clarity, it is prudent to determine the "best response". (Which might mean no response at all.)

What I would like to know is where you end up in the logical pursuit of the best response.

j_sum1 - 7-9-2016 at 15:07

Quote: Originally posted by careysub  
Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Self-referential is not the same as self-contradictory. I could post a similar question where there were five options:
A. 0%
B. 20%
C. 40%
D. 60%
E. 80%


This is no less self-referential but does not obviously form a paradoxical situation. If I had posted this one it would not appear as intriguing a problem and would provoke little discussion. And yet, it would contain the same exact assumptions and inherent problems as the question I have actually posted. It is the cracking of those issues that I am interested in.

So, more than just linguistics. No red herrings. Some real deduction is required.


So tell us what those assumptions are. If doing so "gives it away" then you are only confirming my point.

And I did not say it was a "paradox", I said it had no truth value - i.e. it is meaningless. Many paradoxes have this property, but it is not limited to them. I don't think it is a paradox, with or without the original list of items or the new ones.

And I argue that changing the unreferenced "multiple choice" items doesn't change the 'question', or its answer, at all.

BTW: My favorite paradox is Newcomb's Paradox -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb%27s_paradox

[Edited on 7-9-2016 by careysub]


I haven't come across Newcombe's paradox before. I will take a closer look at that one.

As for revealing the assumptions -- all in good time. Seeing how different people respond to the paradox/contradictions/meaninglessness/absurd (pick one) is all part of the fun.

Darkstar - 7-9-2016 at 23:31

I guess I'll take a stab at this.

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
If you choose a random answer to this question, what is the chance that you would be correct?

A. 25%
B. 50%
C. 0%
D. 25%


I say the answer is C. Something I've noticed is that most people seem to be under the assumption that multiple choice questions can only have one, single correct answer, which isn't necessarily true. One way we could arrive at the conclusion that there is more than one answer to this question is through deductive reasoning. If we assume that the answer must be at least one of the four possible choices listed, then there is at least a 25% chance of choosing the correct answer at random. Given that there exist two choices that could then potentially be correct, we could further argue that there must also exist a third correct answer:



But if that were true, we could also go on to make this argument:



Which brings us to our final argument:



Thus the only possible choice is C.

j_sum1 - 8-9-2016 at 01:32

Quote: Originally posted by Darkstar  

    1. If A and D are both correct answers, then there is a 50% chance of choosing the correct answer at random.

    2. If there is a 50% chance of choosing the correct answer at random, then B must also be a correct answer.

    3. Therefore, if A and D are both correct answers, then B must also be a correct answer.


But if that were true, we could also go on to make this argument:

    1. If A, B and D are all correct answers, then there is a 75% chance of choosing the correct answer at random.

    2. If there is a 75% chance of choosing the correct answer at random, then A, B and D cannot be correct answers.

    3. Therefore, if A, B and D are all correct answers, then A, B and D cannot be correct answers.


Which brings us to our final argument:

    1. If A, B and D cannot be correct answers, then there is a 0% chance of choosing the correct answer at random.

    2. If there is a 0% chance of choosing the correct answer at random, then C must be the correct answer.

    3. Therefore, if A, B and D cannot be correct answers, then C must be the correct answer.


Thus the only possible choice is C.




Go to top of the page and repeat ad infinitum.



Beautiful. Just beautiful. ;)

Darkstar - 9-9-2016 at 14:54

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
    1. There is a 25% chance of selecting C at random.

    2. Therefore there is a 25% chance of obtaining the correct answer.

    3. Therefore C cannot be the correct answer since it states there is a 0% chance of getting it correct.

    4. And so A and D must be the correct answer since they are the answers that state 25%


This occurred to me as well, but I still think it's possible to argue that C is the single best answer out of the four. For starters, I'd argue that propositions 1-3 above do not imply the 4th. It has already been established that answers A, B and D cannot possibly be correct, so if answer C cannot be correct either, then there cannot be a 25% chance of choosing the correct answer because there isn't one. Thus there is no reason to then conclude that the answer must instead be A and D, and thus no reason to start all over again.

Secondly, I'd argue that, because we've already established that answers A, B and D cannot possibly be correct, the conclusion that C is the correct answer is in fact an unavoidable consequence of the very proposition that it ISN'T. Because if neither A, B, C nor D were correct answers, then the chance of choosing the correct answer at random would still be 0%. So by showing C to be the wrong answer, you are in fact simultaneously showing it to be the correct one as well.

And lastly, I'd also argue it is possible to prove that "C is the correct answer" is a true proposition by demonstrating the inconsistency of the opposite proposition "C is the incorrect answer." According to Clavius's Law, for the sake of consistency, if a proposition (A) is a consequence of its negation (¬A), then that proposition (A) is true:

(¬A → A) → A

And since the proposition "C is the correct answer" is not only a logical consequence of A, B and D all being incorrect answers, but also C itself being an incorrect answer, we can then conclude that "C is the correct answer" is a true statement.

Anyway, that's my two cents. This is definitely an interesting question that has got me thinking. I don't necessarily disagree with you, by the way, just felt like playing a little Devil's advocate is all. :P

aga - 9-9-2016 at 15:13

It's definitely a good puzzle.

I asked one of my dogs about it and she sniffed for a second and then went about her normal distal hygiene routines, which is to say, she thought it was some sort of human crap, but at least edible.

j_sum1 - 9-9-2016 at 19:01

Quote:
If you choose a random answer to this question, what is the chance that you would be correct?

A. 25%
B. 50%
C. 0%
D. 25%

Quote:
The answer can best be described as indeterminate.

The difficulty in this problem is that it is self-referential and appears at first observation to be self-contradictory.
However, there are two hidden assumptions contained within the problem. These are worth examining and in doing so there does appear to be a solution that is to be preferred over others.

The first assumption is that “random selection” implies that each of the four answers may be chosen with equal probability. This is a natural interpretation of the phrase “choose a random answer”, but not a necessary interpretation. What has to be acknowledged is that whenever a random selection is required, there must be some kind of random selection process. I might put A, B, C and D on a dart board and use my awesome throwing skills to make a selection. The selection will be random, that is, subject to chance. But there is nothing to suggest all four outcomes have equal probability.

I might, with equal validity use a regular six-sided dice and label the faces A, B, B, B, C, D. This would give me a random choice and in this case the probability of selecting B is 50% which incidentally matches that question option. Thus B could be a correct answer.

Alternatively, I might label an eight-sided dice with A, C, C, C, C, C, C, D. In this case there is a 25% chance of obtaining A or D. Both A and D state a figure of 25% which matches this probability. Therefore, with this random process, either A or D could be considered the correct solution. And it would not matter which of the two I chose.

A different six-sided dice could be labelled A, A, B, B, D, D. With this random selection there is 0% probability of obtaining C; which matches option C. Therefore, C could be a correct answer.

And as it has been pointed out ably by Metacelsus, a perfectly uniform random selection process necessarily leads to a paradox and therefore no sensible answer at all. There are plenty of random selection processes that lead to such paradoxes: this is not the only one.

(And then there is the reverse paradox. If I select randomly using an eight-sided dice labelled A, B, B, B, B, E, E, D then I could make a case that all the answers are correct since the probabilities of their selection match the numerical answers provided. This opens up the contradiction that there is 100% chance of obtaining a correct answer in spite of the fact that 100% is not an option. There is also a second paradox under this scheme in that contradictory answers should be considered equally true. I find this paradoxical situation even more bizarre than the uniform selection process.)

Thus we can see that the answer, if it exists is contingent upon the random selection process. Depending on how the examiner defines “random choice”, any or none of the answers could be considered valid. In other words, it is all in the hands of the examiner. If I am a student answering this question I am unfortunately not privy to the examiner’s whim on this. The only thing I can conclude is that any of the available options A, B, C or D could be considered valid by the examiner.

This leads to the second assumption – that there is one and only one option out of A, B, C or D that will be considered correct by the examiner. And this is the normal assumption in multi-choice questions. It is how they are generally designed. We have, however, already been slammed directly into a paradox by following natural assumptions. There is no reason to suspect the examiner will play fair. The only thing we know for sure is that the examiner would consider either zero, one, two, three or four of the available options to be correct – by whatever perverse logic that s/he might wish to use. I can pretty much ignore the numeric answers at this point and focus on A, B, C and D.

What is interesting here is how quickly different people are to abandon this assumption and state that there are zero correct answers. People seem less likely to consider two, three or four correct answers.

So, it might be that the examiner considers zero of the answers to be correct. If I knew this for certain it would make answering the question problematic. There is no way of distinguishing between answering correctly and leaving the question out. For that reason I would shy away from leaving the answer blank. I could be wrong but it does not look like the intent of the question is to opt out.

It might be that the examiner considers one of the four answers correct. This is the default position. I would not throw out this possibility without good reason.

It might be that the examiner considers two of the four answers correct. If this was the case then the most likely scenario is that those two answers are A and D since they are the same. I cannot see any plausible reasoning that would render other combinations to be correct. That is not to say such reasoning does not exist. Alternatively, the examiner might be being deliberately perverse or have faulty reasoning. But in spite of evidence of this kind of perversity, I consider these alternatives to be less likely. If two answers are correct then they are probably A and D.

It might be that the examiner considers three answers to be correct. And again it is difficult to see the logic behind that. There might not be any. In which case there is no real way to choose between the triples available.

It might be that the examiner considers all four answers to be correct. We have already seen that all are possible depending on the random selection process adopted. If this is the case then it would not matter which one we chose.

Which brings us to the decision of what response to give. Much as I would like to present a series of paragraphs for a complete and justified answer, it is stated as a multiple choice question which conventionally has me selecting from A, B, C or D. Giving a numerical response such as 25% or some other number or shouting “elephant” while performing dance would all be responses outside of the scope of the format.

We might consider what would happen if we were actually to circle more than one of A, B, C or D. It is difficult to predict under the circumstances how such a response might be interpreted. The best clue we have is that the question states choosing a (singular) random answer. On this basis I would resist the temptation to select more than one option.

If there is one correct answer and I am to choose one, then the best measure I can give for its probability is 25%. This has me choosing either A or D and I really have no way of preferring one over the other.
If there are two correct answers then, as we have seen, I should feel confident about picking either A or D.
If there are three correct answers then I confess to being bewildered as to the logic behind it. But selecting something is better than nothing and I am likely to choose one of the three correct options.
If there are four correct answers then it really does not matter which I select – I will be correct.

So, whatever insanity the examiner adheres to, I am well served to choose either A or D as my solution. Either will do but not both.

I am not pretending that my analysis is the only one possible. Like I said at the start, the answer is indeterminate. But that then raises the question of how to make good decisions in situations that are ambiguous, probabilistic in nature or where good information is lacking. I think puzzles such as these are worthwhile brain training for real-life situations.

Eddygp - 11-9-2016 at 11:30

This question is a well known paradox in probability. There is no correct answer and here is the reasoning:

If only one answer was correct, then the probability would be 25% but there are two answers with 25% (A. & D.), so those can't be correct.

If two of the answers are correct, then the probability would be 50% but only one answer is 50% (B.) so that cannot be correct.

The only remaining answer, C. at 0% cannot be correct because then 0 of the 4 answers would be correct and there is only 1 answer of 0%.

So there is no correct answer.

aga - 11-9-2016 at 12:27

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
puzzles such as these are worthwhile brain training for real-life situations.

Alternatively :-

1. Keep your eye on the Money
3. Trust Nobody, also ignore anyone called 'Nobody'.
1. If it bites, bite it First, and as hard as you can.
7. Do it Big. Do it Once. Do it Alone.
5. Small people can run and hide faster than Big people.
1. Never eat any food that you cannot positively identify.

These also work in real life.

I was going to quote from the bible, but it's a mistranslation.
It should read : "Do unto Udders ..."