Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Chemicals/labware to avoid?

Chemicals/labware to avoid?

Veruth - 4-12-2006 at 11:22

I now have a job, which means I have expendable income to use on labware and chemicals to stock my growing home lab. But I'm a bit worried about being accused of some sort of drug manufacture. Especially since I live in Missouri, which if I remember correctly, is the meth capitol of the country (right after California, where I lived previously). So my question is, what chemicals and/or labware should I avoid like the plague? I know red phosphorus and iodine are two, which is annoying because I can think of so many legitimate uses for both

, but I think I'd rather be understocked then in prison. If I need something suspicious, I'd at least like to know so I can take precaution in acquiring it, just make it myself, or stay far away from it.

[Edited on 4-12-2006 by Veruth]

[Edited on 4-12-2006 by Veruth]

Jdurg - 4-12-2006 at 13:56

You can get whatever it is that you want as long as you aren't doing anything illegal. It's as simple as that. If you would like to, you could get in touch with your local police department and let them know that you will be acquiring lab equipment and chemicals to perform chemistry experiments and that you would like to know what licenses you might need or what you would have to do in order to avoid being accused of illegal drug manufacture. Believe it or not, local police departments will actually be willing to help you out.

99.99% of the time when you hear all these horror stories of people getting arrested because of the chemicals they have it's because A) they actually were doing illegal activities, or B) they were being very secretive about what they were doing and gave the cops reason to believe that they were doing illegal activities.

Drunkguy - 4-12-2006 at 14:12

I was performing a procedure in my backyard and a neighbour looked over the fence and called the police. After I explained that I was simply trying to distill some nitric acid, an environmental safety officer was called in who asked a few questions about how I dispose of waste chemicals. The morale of this story is even if you yourself are confident that you are acting in your capacities, there will be others who will try and claim that what you are doing is dangerous and putting others at risk.

Infact I think the neighbour told the police that I was running an alcohol still or something and was merely trying to get me in trouble. Just be aware that more often it will be members of the community that alert the authorities. So... just be careful what you say to people.

[Edited on 4-12-2006 by Drunkguy]

12AX7 - 4-12-2006 at 14:45

Well, that certainly would fit your screen name.

Tim

chromium - 4-12-2006 at 15:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Jdurg
get in touch with your local police department and let them know that you will be acquiring lab equipment and chemicals to perform chemistry experiments and that you would like to know what licenses you might need or what you would have to do in order to avoid being accused of illegal drug manufacture. Believe it or not, local police departments will actually be willing to help you out.

I am quite sceptical about that. At first you have to decide to whom to speak. Modern laws are very complex and common police officers do not know that much about specific laws. They will just tell you that you can do anything as long as it is legal. Very valuable information indeed! You can not make them be more specific and even if someone there tells you that you can safely do your experiments, this counts absolutely nothing if some other officer (from environment protection for example) finds laws that seem to tell otherwise.

[Edited on 4-12-2006 by chromium]

BromicAcid - 4-12-2006 at 17:00

Avoid three-neck flasks, I've known glassware dealers, professionals, that will not carry them due to some stigma attached to them. Of course avoid listed chemicals as much as possible, make them if you can. And avoid buying large quantities of anything all at once. More of then not it's not what you buy, but how you buy it. Don't buy combinations of things that can be used directly for making energetic materials or illicit substances of abuse, just look around for awhile, float around here and there online and you'll get a feel for these things.

Veruth - 4-12-2006 at 18:42

Maybe I have heard a few too many horror stories...
I'm already fairly careful, people know I'm fairly knowledgeable when it comes to chemistry, and many know I do home experimentation on some scale, but that's about it. Right now I'm just trying to build a basic collection of chemicals, so I don't have anything especially explosive/toxic/etc, and nothing drug/explosive related that I know of.

Thanks.

Jdurg - 5-12-2006 at 06:33

Basically, just don't do anything stupid. While it may seem annoying to many of us here that certain chemicals are illegal or there are certain regulations that have to be followed, those regulations are in place for a reason. While you may not think that dumping your excess solution down the drain or outside is that big of a deal, if everyone in the area did that then there is a high probability of groundwater contamination. A one time dumping of a small amount of organic waste may not seem like a big deal, but when that is done repeatedly it is a massive problem.

The one area that most people are SEVERELY lacking in is the werewithall to dispose of their excess chemicals properly. This is also where most accidents happen. Everyone seems to think that the police and the DEA and the EPA are out to get them and prevent them from learning and doing chemistry. That is far from the truth and is simply complete paranoia usually displayed by those who indeed ARE doing illegal things. The "feds" are only out there to ensure that the environment is kept as clean as possible and that the general public isn't at risk because of someone who is stockpiling chemicals. Meth labs are incredibly dangerous not because of the methamphetamine being created, but because of the horrific condition they are kept in and the copious amounts of horrific chemicals being used. While the production and possession of Crystal Meth is illegal, it's not the biggest danger associated with methamphetamine labs.

The final thing to remember is that in no way should you be, pardon the pun, "copping" an attitude if an officer does get suspicious. Far too often all these stories you read about home chemists being 'busted' are because they are acting suspcious and giving a "Why the fuck should I tell you anything?" type of attitude towards the officers.

woelen - 5-12-2006 at 13:46

Well, to be true, I would be careful with certain precursors for drugs. If you are in the US, don't buy phosphorus. Iodine you can make yourself very easily from KI. KI is not suspect at all. Making phosphorus yourself is not easy at all, but one can perfectly live without. There are many other chems, which are very interesting. I myself mostly do inorganic transition metal chemistry and that is an area of chemistry, which gives MANY interesting possibilities, and at the same time hardly requires any suspicious chemicals.

Also, as stated before, don't order certain combinations. E.g., no oxidizers and reductors at the same place. I agree with Jdurg, that being open about what you do is the best guarantee for not getting into trouble. I have a webpage with lots of experiments and many chemicals listed on it (see my signature below this post) and up to now I have much more positive experiences than negative experiences. If people see what you are doing is real chemistry and not some bombing or meth-cooking and you can provide proof of doing real chemistry, then people will even think it is beautiful. Most people around me (including many non-chemists) think about it that way and fear is taken away and replaced by wonder about all those funny/remarkable things

Drunkguy - 5-12-2006 at 15:04

This is a letter from a lecturer who I did a project for at university. Notice what his comments are regarding 'self experimentation'.

Your proposal looks interesting but ambitious - you know that chemistry on paper takes much longer in the lab and that there are usually many surprises along the way. It is impossible to do chemistry these days without the resources of a major, well-funded laboratory (and not just the spectroscopic services). Further, the properties of target molecules cannot be guaranteed so there is always the possibility of disappointment after a lot of effort; in these cases, there are often points of synthetic or mechanistic interest to justify publication and learning to deal with this is part of the purpose of PhD training. I should emphasise that you will not be successful in getting recognition for funding without a PhD and subsequent experience - it is a very long apprenticeship! See responses below which include comments on possibilities after post-doc experience - there are no short cuts, I'm afraid.

Funding is a serious problem. Put simply, even with good postgraduate training you will not get funding unless you are part of an established academic or industrial laboratory. Even then, there is limited funding available for academics and the competition is very fierce. Most people have to submit many proposals before they have one accepted. Many proposals are now joint 'inter-disciplinary' efforts to try to increase the chances of success. I am sure you know that you will not get 'personal' funding if you are outside the mainstream and that you therefore need to be part of an established group at this stage. Even then, most academics are going to be much more interested and involved with their own pet projects.

You will not get the chance to develop your own ideas in the Pharmaceutical industry without a PhD and post-doc experience. It is very difficult to know what goes on in industry since commercial confidentiality means that much of their work does not surface for many years, if at all. In addition, many companies have closed down whole areas of work over the last 10 - 15 years as they merge, 'rationalise', and slim down - we have experienced this in trying to get support for our own work. I have never had support from industry except for small sums from providing compounds for testing (and we have had to move on 4 times to different companies as our collaborators have had their sections closed down).

There is more funding available in the U.S. but you have had responses from people there and appreciate the difficulties (and the essential training and career progression there as well).

You imply that you have materials at home (I assume you are at home since I have not heard to the contrary). I should counsel strongly that the days of 'home chemistry in the garage' are long gone. There are strict (and sensible) regulations on storage, working conditions, disposal, and safety. Further, there is monitoring of purchases of chemicals by non-authorised people and a strong tendency to misunderstand the aims of a keen chemist like yourself, however well-meant. Don't forget that we are in new territory - with people making hazardous materials surreptitiously and illegally for anti-social purposes (whether drugs or terrorism). You should not risk any problems in this regard - people will just not understand! Perhaps I have misinterpreted your email but I would be irresponsible if I did not warn you very strongly indeed not to do synthetic chemistry in any environment other than a proper, recognised laboratory. I don't know where you got the materials you describe below but you really should not have them in a home environment.

Your only hope of doing synthetic chemistry is by getting a position in an established research group - it may then be possible to develop an independent line of your own over a longer period of time. Of course, potential supervisors will appreciate your keen interest and your imaginative proposals but they won't necessarily put you ideas above their own passions in the short term - you will need to prove your worth first! I am sorry to be sound a bit negative but you must be realistic or you will become very frustrated.

BromicAcid - 5-12-2006 at 16:20

Jdurg, what makes your believe that these crackdowns on home chemistry are going on in an effort to curb illegal dumping of chemicals. The EPA has much much bigger fish to fry so to speak with what the industry is dumping down their drains, both legally (see some of the toxic release inventories for the larger facilities, they put everyone here at sciencemadness put together to shame) and illegally (This is just a recent news release, of course this goes on hundreds of times a day across the country, though flammable materials are the most often disposed of 'properly' EPA). There is a concerted effort in law enforcement and other areas of government that deals with cracking down on chemists at home. I have personally received letters from the DOJ, and the BATF regarding chemical purchases, and this has nothing to do with any chemical releases that I have been a part of. There is an honest to god fear of chemicals, and it saturates most people in our society, it happens, and although some may cover it up with environmental concerns it is an inherent dislike of those people that don't think like they do.

Also, Drunkguy, I have talked frankly with my teachers in the past regarding my at home endeavors. And although they made slight efforts to dissuade me I made them believe that I could do productive chemistry at home. Though I must admit my enthusiasm in the subject falls into classical inorganic chemistry vs. pharmacology. That letter must have been slightly depressing though, it seems so final.

Fleaker - 5-12-2006 at 16:31

Most importantly, I would use common sense. Oddly as this sounds, I advise you to read up on what is suspicious that way you can stay clear of it: many gov't agencies put forth brochures to the public to inform them on what they should ''look out for/be suspicious of''.

Obviously don't be so naive as so think you can order kilograms of sodium and a 55L reaction flask off of ebay and go without notice, even if your most sinister aspiration is making biodiesel :\

[Edited on 7-12-2006 by Fleaker]

Elawr - 5-12-2006 at 17:59

Around here it is the methamphetamine trade that is the biggest thorn in the side for the narcotics police. The wise amateur chemist will know the profile of the clandestine meth cook and will avoid certain patterns of behavior associated with the criminal.

For example, if one were to purchase a pickup truck with a covered bed, and then use the vehicle to transport a portable distillation setup along with various organic solvents, this would be seen as a "red flag". Maybe even sufficient cause for search without warrant, seizure of property and arrest for possible controlled substance violation.

And so forth.

Chemistry is seen in a better light when the enthusiast enjoys demonstrating its wonders to the young students. The dept of chemistry at Leeds Univ has an excellent website of demonstrational chemistry. There are several enterprises here in the Southeast, that travel about, giving spectacular demonstrations at various schools.

Veruth - 5-12-2006 at 22:03

I just noticed that there was a a topic nearly identical to this one posted a while back, with a nearly identical title. Sorry about that

I have read up on the DEA website about what to watch for to identify a meth lab, and I'm not terribly worried about someone seeing what I'm doing and calling the police since I pretty much live in the middle of the woods. What I'm worried about is purchasing the wrong chemicals together, or the wrong labware with a watched chemical or something like that. I'm also mildly worried about some wal-mart clerk or something calling the police because they think what I've purchased is suspicious. But I'm not so concerned about that now since I don't look suspicious, and I can fully explain my reasons for purchasing what I purchase. Is there any actual watchlist that I can look at? I haven't been able to find one, and I really don't know much about drug manufacture other than a few basics like RP and solid iodine.

Oh, and woelen, I have seen your site. In fact, I've been looking through it for most of the day. There is a lot of good information there, and I have quite a few experiments saved to try once I get the needed chemicals.

[Edited on 6-12-2006 by Veruth]

chromium - 6-12-2006 at 01:18

Veruth, you should not order list 1 chemicals or if you do, be prepared for police visit. Better yet, be always somewhat prepared to police visit. They will not arrest you just eat your nerves a bit. If you are lucky they will never wisit you.

Btw red phosphorus and iodine are some of most important chemicals when one is doing organic synthesis (look Vogels Prep. org. chem. for example) so controllig of these substances does not seem as attack to drug manufacture only.

If drugs were the main problem and DEA as intelligent and tolerant as jdurg says, they just contrelled ephedrine and did not touch RP and iodine as these HAVE TOO MANY USES outside of illegal drug manufacture.

Jdurg, if you trully belive what you wrote here then why not write to DEA or enviromentals and ask them directly about home chemistry or, better yet, to interview them exclusively for our hobby chemistry "club". They should be glad to refute our prejudices.

Drunkguy, this letter is quite characteristic to general attitude in modern academic world. Look how well hi accepts those restrictions that society puts on him. No protesting of any kind just wish to integrate as well as he can into the System - to get those pieces of bred that System decides to give to him. Btw he is very honest (much more so than most of whom i have known) and probably will respect your efforts if he sees that you are serious and consistent.

unionised - 6-12-2006 at 10:56

"the authorities" must visit this sort of site from time to time.
Come on guys- save us all some trouble. Let us know what to avoid and then you won't need to have to waste time visiting us.

Beatnik - 7-12-2006 at 06:59

I am certainly not a good chemist. However i do have some small suggestion that have kept me out of trouble with family, etc every now and then. Which i also think are overlooked.

Only buy what you strictly need. You THINK you need some fancy peice of glass. But you rarely need it. I have a suspician that they often chase down the people that have racked up the most "points" of glassware and chems rather then the guy who has bought a few odds and ends. I could be wrong, but if a computer is forced to spit out results from a database the guy with the most purchases is going to be at the top and considered the most important.

Think SMALL. I have been having fun with very small amounts of chems and sized glassware. Its made my mum happy. After all, there can't be any trouble from a couple gram sized flasks that are so "cute" (her words). Of course, that restricts things but it would be hard to mistake you for a "bulk" guy. If you DO get in trouble i can imagine them hiring in people to look at how much of substance X you could make with this sized glassware and volume of chems.

Your local council can cause havok in this situation because they can construct laws quickly, change boundries ie: whats industry, residential and the laws that affect them and they can and will do it to spite you. Particulary if your neighbours dont like it. They may even FINE you very large sums of cash for breaking those regulations.

Acetic anhydride

pantone159 - 7-12-2006 at 09:17

How suspicious, really, is acetic anhydride? It seems like it had the reputation of being very suspicious, but I'm not really sure why. The only notorious use that I am aware of, is acetylating morphine. I'd think that this happens to a very tiny extent in the USA and Europe. Rather, that is done in the places where the morphine is grown in the first place.

OTOH, Ac2O has lots of legit uses, esters and protecting groups are the first ones that come to mind.

Veruth - 7-12-2006 at 17:25

Quote:

Originally posted by pantone159
How suspicious, really, is acetic anhydride? It seems like it had the reputation of being very suspicious, but I'm not really sure why. The only notorious use that I am aware of, is acetylating morphine. I'd think that this happens to a very tiny extent in the USA and Europe. Rather, that is done in the places where the morphine is grown in the first place.

OTOH, Ac2O has lots of legit uses, esters and protecting groups are the first ones that come to mind.

Hmm, sure it's not used in meth production?
I seem to remember hearing about someone killed/injured in an attempt to steal some from a farm. From what I heard they were trying to get it into an empty propane tank. No clue if it actually hapened though.

garage chemist - 7-12-2006 at 17:34

The chemical from the farm would have been liquid anhydrous ammonia, and it is very likely that somebody would get killed when an accident with this happens.

Ac2O is indeed a precursor for meth, as it can be reacted with phenylacetic acid to give phenylacetone. I have also thought before that heroin manufacture was its only illicit use, but that is not true.

Magpie - 7-12-2006 at 17:39

That was probably aqua ammonia. Farmers do use that for fertilizing the soil. I don't think they would be using acetic anhydride.

It seems to be common for meth cooks to steal the aqua ammonia (aqueous ammonia) from the farmer and place it in a propane tank. This is a materials of construction error and the ammonia can quickly eat through the brass fittings of the propane tank. I read of one incident where the tank exploded in the car as the cooks were heading home. It was a nasty accident.

Edit:

In thinking this over it may be anhydrous ammonia, also being used by farmers, that is being stolen. And that nasty accident I mentioned may have been the result of a broken gas fitting caused by the auto accident.

[Edited on 8-12-2006 by Magpie]

[Edited on 8-12-2006 by Magpie]

[Edited on 8-12-2006 by Magpie]

Veruth - 7-12-2006 at 19:00

Ah, damn. You're right, it was anhydrous ammonia. Sorry about that.
I suppose this is why I should take a second to think before I make a post.

Now that I think of it, we just went over that in my ag class a few days ago too.
Yep, I feel like an idiot

[Edited on 8-12-2006 by Veruth]

pantone159 - 7-12-2006 at 20:06

Meth labs seem to use both anhydrous HCl (gas) and NH3 (gas at standard conditions), and trying to keep them in ex-propane cylinders seems to be common practice. Therefore, very suspicious, not to mention stupid. That means, btw, that any purchase of lab-grade HCl or NH3 gas would be very suspicious.

Ac2O doesn't seem to be in the garden-variety meth lab, according to 'google signs of a meth lab', most all of which are based on pseudoephedrine. For the industrial scale ones, a better process with Ac2O seems more likely. I'd like to think that this makes SMALL Ac2O purchases not so suspicious looking.

Veruth - 7-12-2006 at 20:18

Wow, I never realized how common some of the ingredients for methamphetamine are. The first few hits on google listed the following as posible signs of a meth lab:

Presence of the following items could indicate the existence of a meth lab:

Alcohol
Ether
Benzene
Toluene/Paint Thinner
Freon
Acetone
Chloroform
Camp Stove Fuel/Coleman Fuel
Starting Fluid
Anhydrous Ammonia
"Heet"
White Gasoline
Phenyl-2-Propane
Phenylacetone
Phenylpropanolamine
Iodine Crystals
Red Phosphorous
Black Iodine
Lye (Red Devil Lye)
Drano
Muriatic/Hydrochloric Acid
Battery Acid/Sulfuric Acid
Epsom Salts
Batteries/Lithium
Sodium Metal
Wooden Matches
Propane Cylinders
Hot Plates
Ephedrine (over-the-counter)
Cold Tablets
Bronchodialators
Energy Boosters
Rock Salt
Diet Aids

This makes me very glad I live in a secluded area. It also gives me a decent idea what not to buy together. It's a bit scary really how many of these things can easily be present in a perfectly legitimate home lab.

[Edited on 8-12-2006 by Veruth]

pantone159 - 7-12-2006 at 20:47

You got to love the fact that NaCl is on the suspicious list. And epsom salts. FEAR those drying agents!!

The_Davster - 7-12-2006 at 20:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Veruth
Wow, I never realized how common some of the ingredients for methamphetamine are. The first few hits on google listed the following as posible signs of a meth lab:

Presence of the following items could indicate the existence of a meth lab:

Alcohol
Ether
Benzene
Toluene/Paint Thinner
Freon
Acetone
Chloroform
Camp Stove Fuel/Coleman Fuel
Starting Fluid
Anhydrous Ammonia
"Heet"
White Gasoline
Phenyl-2-Propane
Phenylacetone
Phenylpropanolamine
Iodine Crystals
Red Phosphorous
Black Iodine
Lye (Red Devil Lye)
Drano
Muriatic/Hydrochloric Acid
Battery Acid/Sulfuric Acid
Epsom Salts
Batteries/Lithium
Sodium Metal
Wooden Matches
Propane Cylinders
Hot Plates
Ephedrine (over-the-counter)
Cold Tablets
Bronchodialators
Energy Boosters
Rock Salt
Diet Aids

This makes me very glad I live in a secluded area. It also gives me a decent idea what not to buy together. It's a bit scary really how many of these things can easily be present in a perfectly legitimate home lab.

[Edited on 8-12-2006 by Veruth]

While it is a good idea to be wary of what you have on hand/purchase, no need to go nuts about it. Much of that list is fearmongering. I've bolded what you should worry about. More scary is how the morons who compile such lists have no idea about the real uses of many of them. I have a small ammount of I2, very small ammount of red P, in some places thats enough to get one arrested

(on 'conspracy to make' or some bull**** like that), but I also have around 200(I should count sometime

) or so other reagents, and much of the periodic table, which most are completly useless for stupid meth. I figure, don't let such potentially suspect chemicals exceed a certain percentage in your chemical inventory. It would allow a defence if ever in trouble of "if I was making 'x' based on your evidence of me having these few precursors, why would I have so so many other ones which have no use for making 'x'"

[Edited on 8-12-2006 by The_Davster]

[Edited on 8-12-2006 by The_Davster]

Veruth - 7-12-2006 at 21:06

Well, I've got nothing that's bolded other than two bottles of caffeine tablets (They were about 1/3 the normal price), so that's somewhat comforting.
And yeah, I know what you mean about "not going nuts" about it. I'm not terribly worried about it, but it is a concern. I'm more worried about doing myself harm

, which is probably a good thing since it will help keep that very thing from happening.

pantone159 - 7-12-2006 at 21:31

adding to The_Davster's comments...

The phenyl... are indeed very suspicious, but I think not used in the usual labs based on pseudoephedrine.

EDIT: Is phenylpropanolamine the same thing as pseudoephedrine? In that case, it would be common.

I think HCl gas, or especially obviously re-purposed propane cylinders, are very suspicious. (and dangerous). Several search hits mentioned burned/spray-painted old propane cylinders.

The 'pills' that matter are those with pseudoephedrine (ephedrine?). I wouldn't want a stockpile of these around.

Lots of reddish powder is bad.

Most important, I think, is to not look suspicious to a cop who knows what meth labs are usually like. To Joe Sixpack/Jane Soccermom, anything chemical is suspicious, but I think most cops have an idea what meth labs usually look like. You don't want to look just like that.

[Edited on 9-12-2006 by pantone159]

Chris The Great - 7-12-2006 at 21:45

Quote:

Originally posted by pantone159
For the industrial scale ones, a better process with Ac2O seems more likely. I'd like to think that this makes SMALL Ac2O purchases not so suspicious looking.

Actually, the anhydride method sucks. It has low yields and uses huge quantities of anhydride for very little P2P. Just avoid phenylacetic acid, you CAN make huge amounts of P2P with that and is far more suspect than some anhydride. I really don't know why it's "suspect" since there are no uses for it in meth production. I'd say 95% of meth labs use the pseudo methods, even those working on the multi-kilogram scale.

Just avoid those bolded chemicals, especially the pseudo- there is no use in a home lab for that stuff other than meth production. Iodine and P, yes, but not pseudo. The other stuff (anhydrous HCl and the like) can be easily made should you need them.

Purchasing concentrated HCl or ammonia is not suspicious at all since they are VERY widely used.

phase_dancer - 8-12-2006 at 18:14

Quote:

Ac2O also of course facilitates the OTC synth of heroin from codeine. "Homebake" H was quite common in New Zealand and Australia at one time.