Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Chemicals that are expensive to buy but easy to make

I wouldn't call making phosphorus or alkali metals "easy" for a home chemist.

I know how to make it, and though I have never tried, it seems easy enough.

Booze - 29-3-2017 at 08:14

Nitroglycrin, sodium cyanide?

Nitroglycrin is not sold online, for obvious reasons.

alking - 29-3-2017 at 09:24

Methylamine? Diethylamine? Benzaldehyde? Benzyl chloride? Hydrobromic acid? Propionic acid? All the alkali cyanides?

Does that count things that are easy to buy the precursors to, but are either expensive to buy or nearly impossible to find? In that case, there are at least half a dozen derivatives I can come up with for n-butanol alone.

A lot of those are restricted, but not expensive though.

How is making alkali metals easy? I do not know any standard procedures to do it, but I'm imagining heating up some alkali salts in a crucible or something. Not necessarily difficult, but who has a crucible?

A Halogenated Substance - 29-3-2017 at 10:35

but who has a crucible?

They're not exactly a rarity to me:

https://www.homesciencetools.com/50-ml-crucible-and-lid-low-...

You can always use a can from canned food as well.

XeonTheMGPony - 29-3-2017 at 11:02

few minutes with some sch80 black iron pipe makes a nice fast one! going to make an SO3 crucible that way and use steel break line for the condenser. Material compatibility charts lead me to think it will survive for a couple dozen runs.

So add "SO3" to the list

[Edited on 29-3-2017 by XeonTheMGPony]

Booze - 29-3-2017 at 11:26

Quote: Originally posted by A Halogenated Substance

but who has a crucible?

They're not exactly a rarity to me:

https://www.homesciencetools.com/50-ml-crucible-and-lid-low-...

You can always use a can from canned food as well.

I really don't recommend cans. They tend to become weak and flimsy after the first or second use. I highly recommend clay graphite crucibles, they work wonders and can be used many, many times.

Tsjerk - 29-3-2017 at 11:43

I guess cans were suggested because they are so cheap/easy to get you can use them ones without feeling bad.

clearly_not_atara - 29-3-2017 at 13:02

ICl3, NI3, Cu2C2, (Me2CH)3O6, N2O4, PH3, C3O2, Ag3N, IN3, SF4, COBr2, H2Se, H3As, AgCNO...

karlos³ - 29-3-2017 at 13:24

I purchase mostly when a compound isn´t that rewarding to make in concern of the practical work or sometimes because of some danger associated with.

That occurs rarely, but when it does, it concerns mostly unusual organic molecules, or very reactive and hard to make anorganics.
For example, some alkylphenylketones were purchased rather than made, the reason being lazyness and other things needing my attention.
But I would otherwise still prefer to buy such things instead of making them myself(which would anyway require access to big suppliers).
Also, things like

As for anorganics, things like mercury or phosphorous compounds are something I rather purchase than make.
Cyanides are harmless to handle compared.

Also anything of with a(real) lachrymatory potency coupled with vesicant activity, is something I would like to avoid if possible. Sadly this is not always possible.

alking - 29-3-2017 at 13:38

I guess I wasn't thinking crucibles are hard to come by so much as I figured you'd need a specialized heat source to use them. Maybe not though, can you just throw one in a wood fire or what? I didn't really consider that, not sure how hot wood burns. Maybe coal if wood isn't hot enough?

XeonTheMGPony - 29-3-2017 at 15:49

forced induction of air to a charcoal fire melts steel to give you an idea

Booze - 29-3-2017 at 20:47

Quote: Originally posted by alking

I guess I wasn't thinking crucibles are hard to come by so much as I figured you'd need a specialized heat source to use them. Maybe not though, can you just throw one in a wood fire or what? I didn't really consider that, not sure how hot wood burns. Maybe coal if wood isn't hot enough?

I use charcoal from Kingsford and a hair dryer. My first crucible was a sawed off empty propane canister, but I bought a graphite one since then.

Also why are we talking about crucibles? What does that have to do with easy compounds to make but are hard to buy?

Booze - 29-3-2017 at 20:50

What is a good mercury source? I don't want to buy some for hundreds of dollars or break open a thousand tilt switches.

PirateDocBrown - 30-3-2017 at 01:17

Ask your dentist if he has any old mercury he hasn't got rid of yet.

But seriously, if you guys hit on any easy way to isolate elemental Na, K or P, let the rest of us know.

[Edited on 3/30/17 by PirateDocBrown]

[Edited on 3/30/17 by PirateDocBrown]

Texium - 30-3-2017 at 06:19

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Chloroform?

Actually I've done the math and doing the haloform even on a relatively large scale isn't really worthwhile if you need chloroform as a solvent for anything but small scale stuff. Doesn't cost much less than buying it, though admittedly it is kind of hard to find and tends to be overpriced anyway.

I wouldn't call making phosphorus or alkali metals "easy" for a home chemist.

I know how to make it, and though I have never tried, it seems easy enough.

"Knowing how" and actually having done it are two different things. If it's so easy, why haven't you already done it? By all means, make some phosphorus tomorrow and tell us how it goes!

JJay - 30-3-2017 at 06:26

Silver nitrate, aluminum bromide, palladium chloride....

CaCl2 - 30-3-2017 at 13:04

Ethanol.

Booze - 31-3-2017 at 08:56

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Chloroform?

I wouldn't call making phosphorus or alkali metals "easy" for a home chemist.

I know how to make it, and though I have never tried, it seems easy enough.

"Knowing how" and actually having done it are two different things. If it's so easy, why haven't you already done it? By all means, make some phosphorus tomorrow and tell us how it goes!

I don't want to make phosphorus, but I could make alkeli metals. I have not done it yet because I need to buy some metal piping, and I don't plan on doing that soon. I would also need a source of sodium and kcl to make elemental potassium, but really it would be a hassle for me to do right now.

Booze - 31-3-2017 at 08:57

Quote: Originally posted by CaCl2

Ethanol.

I'd say it is easier to buy. A place near where I live sells 95% ethanol, and making some takes weeks.

alking - 31-3-2017 at 09:47

Definitely, I hate purifying ethanol. My state only sells up to 75% and it costs 2-3x as much as the 40% so I normally just get the bottom of the shelf vodka. Depending how patient I am I will distill that anywhere from 72% to maybe 92%, it takes about 12+ hours to get 92% and to get azeotropic, or most likely slightly below that, it takes about 2x as long as it does to get the 92%. That's with about 700mm of an insulated and bead packed fractionating column too. From there I still have to dry it and re-distill yet again. Even then, while it works for most purposes, the bp is always 1-4C lower than EtOH indicating various impurities, ketones, aldehydes, methanol, I don't know. That's to turn a 1500ml 40% into about 700ml of anyhdrous. For maybe 2.5x the cost of the vodka I could just order some lab grade online.

Melgar - 2-4-2017 at 16:57

Quote: Originally posted by A Halogenated Substance

but who has a crucible?

They're not exactly a rarity to me:

https://www.homesciencetools.com/50-ml-crucible-and-lid-low-...

You can always use a can from canned food as well.

Hey, why'd you quote me as saying that? I have plenty of crucibles, and can get them from the jewelry supply store in many different shapes and sizes. But then, I can get potassium cyanide for $20 / lb OTC there too, so that may not be a good comparison.

@altking: that's where desiccants are your friend. You just need to find one that's inert to ethanol but sucks up any water that comes near it. You tend to need to leave it overnight though. I've heard that potassium carbonate works well for this, but that's kind of expensive and reacts easily with anything acidic. Silica gel would probably be a good bet though.

[Edited on 4/3/17 by Melgar]

Phosphor-ing - 2-4-2017 at 17:28

3A molecular sieves are the way to go dehydrating ethanol. Not very fast but really cheap considering they can be regenerated hundreds or thousands of times.

NedsHead - 2-4-2017 at 21:51

Distilled water, that stuff is pricey but easy to make

LD5050 - 3-4-2017 at 06:03

Quote: Originally posted by NedsHead

Distilled water, that stuff is pricey but easy to make

Distilled water is pricey? last time I checked it was like 70 cents a gallon
Not sure if it was mentioned yet but benzaldehyde it hard to come by (depending on where you live) yet there is like 5000000 different ways of making it and a lot are quite easy.

[Edited on 4-3-2017 by LD5050]

Melgar - 4-4-2017 at 08:32

Lactic acid? We make it just by running, but it's stupidly expensive. Also, pyruvic acid. Not sure why those two are so expensive, since they can be made without much difficulty via the oxidation of propylene glycol.

anewsoul - 4-4-2017 at 09:15

Lactic acid? We make it just by running, but it's stupidly expensive. Also, pyruvic acid. Not sure why those two are so expensive, since they can be made without much difficulty via the oxidation of propylene glycol.

Lol. How might you extract the lactic acid produced in the body?

Melgar - 4-4-2017 at 10:36

Quote: Originally posted by anewsoul

Lol. How might you extract the lactic acid produced in the body?

With your liver, of course.

symboom - 4-4-2017 at 14:05

Compounds in milk
And extracting this is not my video
He extracts compounds from milk including lactose

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BV8aFRII1M4

Also
Racemic lactic acid is produced in industry by addition of hydrogen cyanide to acetaldehyde and subsequent hydrolysis of forming lactonitrile. Hydrolysis performed by hydrochloric acid and ammonium chloride forms as a by-product of lactic acid. Excerpt wikipedia lactic acid

[Edited on 4-4-2017 by symboom]

Melgar - 4-4-2017 at 15:00

Quote: Originally posted by symboom

Compounds in milk
And extracting this is not my video
He extracts compounds from milk including lactose

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BV8aFRII1M4

Also
Racemic lactic acid is produced in industry by addition of hydrogen cyanide to acetaldehyde and subsequent hydrolysis of forming lactonitrile. Hydrolysis performed by hydrochloric acid and ammonium chloride forms as a by-product of lactic acid. Excerpt wikipedia lactic acid

If you kept reading, you might have noticed that only one company in Japan still makes it this way, and others all start with cheaper precursors like glycerol and propylene. However, lactic acid is a chiral molecule, which could make it harder to synthesize. And I doubt there's that much demand for it either.

Fantasma4500 - 5-4-2017 at 10:22

ive seen styrene sold towards 100 dollars for half a litre, metal plastic or something, stabilized with 1% methanol, supposedly polymerizes into polystyrene when left out in air
this stuff can be made from pyrolysis of polystyrene, which can then be oxidized into benzaldehyde

one could go about making formate salts by tossing carbon monoxide, possibly from NaHCO3 electrolysis cell through calcium hydroxide, it then forms calcium formate
some very hefty solvents springs to mind, SCl2

one guy claimed to having been able to run a very neat manufacturing of oleum, 185% H2SO4, using sulfur, air and a catalyst, as well as drying agent for air (again sulfuric acid), cant remember what oleum cost last time i even had a chance to see price of such, but extremely expensive

colloidal silver through silver oxalate decomposition controlled in water and / or glycol mixture

guanidine carbonate! or well guanidine salts in general, recall AN and UNitrate heated together for some hours would create a bunch of guanidine nitrate

chloroacetates, simply chlorination of acetic acid

cyanides

acetaldehyde, mostly because its pretty difficult to get around? a bonus is that one can combine different things with the reaction vessel that then further reacts with aldehydes, amines and what not

chromate and dichromate from stainless steel - HCl + Me(tal) = MeClx -> MeClx + NaHCO3 = MeCO3/OHx -> Cr(OH)3 + NaClO = NaCrO4 -> NaCrO4 + HCl = Na2Cr2O7, excess HCl forms chlorochromate which has some potential use as oxidizer for organics, also serves as a neat little continous chlorine generator for whenever you feel like pouring out a bit of chlorine on burning steel wool or what not

oxalic acid from sugar and nitric acid
nitric acid

methanol distilled from wood

got a hint laying about saying butyl alcohol oxidation turns into methyl ethyl ketone?

"ketene lamp" (sort of build technical of what i understand, you want high temperature, high resistance kiln wire, can produce acetic anhydride i think?)

piperine, but very high risk reaction using sodium metal, cant recall procedure but its quite expensive stuff

ethyl chloride from Cl2 + ethanol

phenol from decomposition of salicylic acid, it can be tossed a bit back and forth in aromatic solvents with some patience

fine zinc metal powder from sodium zincate electrolysis

oxalic acid and glycol forming allyl alcohol (was it allyl?)

bunch of these things are either watched or barely possible to buy, others i wrote down simply for how useful they are

Booze - 8-4-2017 at 07:27

Hey, I don't think iodine should be in the list up there. You can buy 10 grams for 20-40 dollars on ebay, but making some from tincture (are there other sources?) costs 10-15 dollars a bottle, and has about 1-2 grams.

JJay - 8-4-2017 at 07:50

Chromate and dichromate from stainless steel is not particularly cost effective. Assuming 100% yield, I can actually buy chromates for slightly cheaper than I can make them, and when I make them, the yields aren't 100%. Of course, there is an extremely wide range of prices for [di]chromates... they are typically sold to chemists at exorbitant prices. But they are also used extensively for industrial purposes, so if you shop around, you can find technical grades at low cost. That's good enough for almost all purposes. And of course, you can also purify them yourself if you want some expensive grade stuff....

Cryolite. - 8-4-2017 at 11:52

How about benzene? Nigh impossible to get outside of chemical suppliers, but easy enough to make from benzoic acid if you have the patience.

PirateDocBrown - 9-4-2017 at 08:10

Hey, I don't think iodine should be in the list up there. You can buy 10 grams for 20-40 dollars on ebay, but making some from tincture (are there other sources?) costs 10-15 dollars a bottle, and has about 1-2 grams.

LOL! 100 bucks for a kg (!) os KI or NaI + drugstore H2O2 + hardware store HCl = All the I2 you want.

Booze - 9-4-2017 at 09:34

LOL! 100 bucks for a kg (!) os KI or NaI + drugstore H2O2 + hardware store HCl = All the I2 you want.

100 bucks for a kg of potassium iodide? Pass, i'll buy some pure iodine on ebay. Besides, who needs a kilogram?

[Edited on 9-4-2017 by Booze]

PirateDocBrown - 9-4-2017 at 10:10

There's probably no easier chemical than iodine to purify.

hyfalcon - 9-4-2017 at 10:30

Quote: Originally posted by A Halogenated Substance

but who has a crucible?

They're not exactly a rarity to me:

https://www.homesciencetools.com/50-ml-crucible-and-lid-low-...

You can always use a can from canned food as well.

Better off using 3A molecular sieves.

bluamine - 11-4-2017 at 09:58

Extracting Sodium needs at least molten sodium hydroxide! (which is obtained at temp above 400°C) or molten NaCl (above 800°C). Na & K can not easily be obtained.
I still don't have acces to any bromide compunds, so i'm planning to extract it from sea water later.

Mesa - 11-4-2017 at 10:21

Quote: Originally posted by bluamine

Extracting Sodium needs at least molten sodium hydroxide! (which is obtained at temp above 400°C) or molten NaCl (above 800°C). Na & K can not easily be obtained.
I still don't have acces to any bromide compunds, so i'm planning to extract it from sea water later.

Only half true. Yes, sodium is pretty difficult to prepare in a home setting.
Potassium on the other hand, is much more easily prepared via this:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14970

XeonTheMGPony - 11-4-2017 at 10:29

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

ethyl chloride from Cl2 + ethanol

Um that's how you make chlorohydrate

Booze - 11-4-2017 at 11:19

Quote: Originally posted by bluamine

I made sodium metal once. I used sodium hydroxide and magnesium powder and lit the magnesium. After that I added the mess to a beaker with water and a layer of mineral oil over the water. The sodium stayed in the oil mixture as the magnesium hydroxide sank to the bottom.

It was kinda easy, but then I melted the sodium into a nice blob.

The Volatile Chemist - 11-4-2017 at 15:35

Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

ethyl chloride from Cl2 + ethanol

Um that's how you make chlorohydrate

Lol found this funny - perhaps because I use the same tone to correct people about chemistry in general...

I can't recall if Chromyl Chloride was up there, or Dioxane, but doug's lab makes those synths look pretty easy. Not that either are exra-ordinarily useful.

Nathan

JJay - 11-4-2017 at 15:52

There are safer reagents for this purpose, but chromyl chloride can be used to oxidize primary alcohols to aldehydes. It's rather dangerous stuff, but at least the boiling point isn't terribly low.

Dioxane actually looks tremendously useful... I'm not sure why it isn't more popular.

Cryolite. - 11-4-2017 at 17:19

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

Dioxane actually looks tremendously useful... I'm not sure why it isn't more popular.

Carcinogenic, low yield when synthesizing from ethylene glycol and sulfuric acid, difficult to dry and purify, forms peroxides on storage...

[Edited on 12-4-2017 by Cryolite.]

bluamine - 12-4-2017 at 00:51