Sciencemadness Discussion Board - UK legal disposal of banned substances.

UK legal disposal of banned substances.

anonymoose - 10-7-2017 at 09:01

Hi everyone. I was doing some googling today and i came across some legal jazz regarding various banned substances... (feel free to ignore the link)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/licensing-for-hom...

It turns out that i happen to own some of these banned substances, specifically mercury (lots) and its compounds, arsenic oxide and oxalic acid. I cant be bothered to get the required licence at this time and I also have no use for any of them (except the acid that i can dilute to make it legal).

Does any body know how to deal with this legally without getting myself in trouble, bearing in mind that even owning these things could potentially land me in jail for 2 years according to the link. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, especially if i have misunderstood the law stuff.

JJay - 10-7-2017 at 09:16

You are advised to contact an attorney. My understanding is that the ex post facto protections that would cover you in the U.S. do not apply in the U.K. That stated, if you call up the Home Office, they'll probably be more than willing to help you.

phlogiston - 10-7-2017 at 12:20

Imagine finding an old mercury-filled barometer and old packages of rodenticide in your grandfathers shed after he passes away. How should you dispose of them?

In my country (not the UK), the municipality collects waste such as this from private individuals at no cost to the citizens that bring their chemical waste to the collection point. Perhaps something similar exists in the UK?

[Edited on 10-7-2017 by phlogiston]

unionised - 10-7-2017 at 12:23

There is a reasonable expectation that the Home Office will never issue a license to anyone.

DrP - 11-7-2017 at 05:04

On topic - I have some mercury that I got at a boot fair in the form of a couple of old thermometers and a barometer. I didn't stop to think that owning it might be illegal. :-( Maybe I'll sell it.

phlogiston - 11-7-2017 at 05:17

DrP it may not illegal, you really should check your local regulations. I believe in the EU it is legal to own mercury in certain objects, but selling, importing and exporting mercury is generally not allowed.
In addition to the EU regulations, the EU member states usually have additional laws. In my country, there are a lot of exceptions to the rules for antique and modern measuring equipment containing mercury. For instance, barometers that were made before a certain date. I recall that mercury thermometers are OK to own and use for calibration purposes, but not for checking a fever.
You should really check what your local law forbids you from owning and doing with mercury-containing objects.

Rosco, surely I am not alone when I say that I find it really annoying to see every tread fill up with semi-political bullshit. The question was simple and practical. This is not the place to post your opinions about what is wrong with the world.

[Edited on 11-7-2017 by phlogiston]

woelen - 11-7-2017 at 05:22

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

[...]
It must be just peachy enjoying all the individual liberty endured while living in that "socially engineered" socialist utopianist wet dream of cultural diversity that is the police state overlorded shithole-istan into which the U.K. and Europe have been "fundamentally transformed".

Gee thanks, but no thanks to such a nanny state "utopia" over run with lowlife mutts and inbred degenerates lopping heads, raping and murdering their way to "paradise" while wearing the shitstain tattoo on the forehead of the "faithful". Some might recognize the mark of the beast for what it is.

This kind of posts brings otherwise decent threads downhill very easily and I will not let that happen. One more post like this and you will receive a temporary ban for a few days. I have seen too much of this kind of crap :mad:

anonymoose - 11-7-2017 at 05:26

Rosco and everyone else, respectfully, please keep politics out of my little thread, this happens to be quite important to me and I don't want it to become a political soapbox for ANY political agenda. politics sucks, can we just leave it at that?
the arsenic i can convert to copper arsenate (=legal) and the mercury compounds which are properly illegal (i think) i can reduce to mercury, which i can easily excuse having. ive checked with the local authorities anonymously and my nearby recycling centre accepts "small quantities of mercury metal" but i have like 2 kilos if not more, so still digging into this... ill keep people informed in case someone has a similar problem

DrP - 11-7-2017 at 05:36

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston

DrP it may not illegal, you really should check your local regulations. I believe in the EU it is legal to own mercury in certain objects, but selling, importing and exporting mercury is generally not allowed.

[Edited on 11-7-2017 by phlogiston]

K- thanks phlog - I'll check before doing anything with it. (even if it is illegal I still might just stash it somewhere as I like owning the stuff). What is the best way to store this at home or in the shed... glass bottle? Does the cap need to be something other than plastic or is this OK? I was thinking about transferring the lot to a single vial or bottle. Thanks.

anonymoose - 11-7-2017 at 05:58

Has anyone got any suggestions for a "wet" method to reduce HgO to Hg?, only i don't really want to heat it

Rosco Bodine - 11-7-2017 at 06:28

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

Has anyone got any suggestions for a "wet" method to reduce HgO to Hg?, only i don't really want to heat it

Dissolve the HgO in HCl, gradually add small scrap pieces of Al electrical wire until no more Al dissolves. Caution flammable Hydrogen evolves!

The elemental Hg will be a puddle at the bottom of the container of AlCl3 byproduct supernatant solution.

BTW anonymoose.....
Please recognize it is not me who is any source of hostility towards science, and attribute credit or blame correctly where it is due for whatever sort of interference with science or pertinent discussion or identification of its enemies.

And do not trust any "legal" advice more than your own common sense.

[Edited on 7/11/2017 by Rosco Bodine]

anonymoose - 11-7-2017 at 06:39

Hmm i didn't think that HgO was particularly reactive towards HCl but fair enough. as for adding Al i dont think its a particularly good idea in general, would probably work for my needs but u would end up with an amalgum of Hg and Al. seeing as im looking to basically chucking it away then i spose thats ok but just for the sake of good chemistry i would prefer a better approach.

anonymoose - 11-7-2017 at 06:41

just realised Al/Hg amalgum reacts w/water so forget that last point
(edit: i was so busy trying not to look like an idiot that i forgot to thank you, so thanks Rosco for a quick and simple wet method

)

[Edited on 11-7-2017 by anonymoose]

Rosco Bodine - 11-7-2017 at 06:43

I know what I am talking about, and the proof of that is easily verified. But you go ahead and subject what I say to confirmation, whether it involves the reaction I described or anything else I have posted on this board.

You are welcome.

[Edited on 7/11/2017 by Rosco Bodine]

anonymoose - 11-7-2017 at 06:53

Rosco, you are indeed correct, hence why i said to ignore my previous comment. The fact that it is so obviously correct leads me to be somewhat embarrassed but i would rather leave my stupid error for all to see for the sake of intellectual honesty rather than edit it. thanks again Rosco!
ps Despite my silly mistake I also know what I'm talking about, no offence was intended.

Rosco Bodine - 11-7-2017 at 06:59

I meant no offense by all the other things I said about the hostile societal environment towards science. It has all worn on my patience over the years, not to mention the "compliance costs" for going along to get along with bullshit regulations written by "experts" who are clueless.

anonymoose - 11-7-2017 at 07:07

I totally agree that modern society is in general very unhelpful toward home chemistry, these laws appear to be based on the notion that we are all drug and/or explosive manufacturers. But I think that conversation should occur in its own thread. The toxicity of Hg is greatly exaggerated and misunderstood but as far as i am concerned keeping it is more hassle than its worth and the easiest way to show the authorities i'm being a good little citizen is by playing by the rules.
For the record if anybody wants some mercury, while im not allowed to give it to you, if you came to my house and took it i wouldn't mind.

DrP - 11-7-2017 at 07:29

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

For the record if anybody wants some mercury, while im not allowed to give it to you, if you came to my house and took it i wouldn't mind.

Are you in the SE UK? I could drop in for a cuppa tea... I won't steal your mercury supply whilst I'm there. :cool:

PM me if you are south east... I'm not driving all the way up to Newcastle for it.

anonymoose - 11-7-2017 at 07:42

South west UK so probably a tad too far for you but it is quite a lot, like 2 kilos maybe, I forget the exact amount.

DrP - 11-7-2017 at 08:05

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

South west UK so probably a tad too far for you but it is quite a lot, like 2 kilos maybe, I forget the exact amount.

2 kg!!

That's a lot! For me anyway. Is it about the size of a coke can? Smaller even I suppose, it is so dense.

I am going to go to the Jurasic coast in a month or 2. If you still have it then I will gladly take it. I've been trying to collect it for years but find it hard to get any.

... I would suggest decent packing and posting it... (I'd pay you of course)... but, legality aside, I wouldn't want it spilling out in the post.

anonymoose - 11-7-2017 at 08:17

Well I'm not going to post it, i am trying to keep my lab and my activities as legal as possible and thus (hopefully) as hassle free from the authorities as i can manage.
its in an old porcelain tub, my dad gave it to me and hes had it since about 1963 so it really wants a new container.
the container has a narrow top so i've never actually seen the whole lot in one place so i couldn't tell u the volume but the tub is probably a 500ml. Dad guesses about 150 ml of Hg and a mass of 1.75 ish kg, CBA to work out if those numbers make sense.
if you want it I'm sure it could be arranged.

Loptr - 11-7-2017 at 08:57

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

Has anyone got any suggestions for a "wet" method to reduce HgO to Hg?, only i don't really want to heat it

Rochelle's salt can be used to get the aluminum salts into solution since it is an excellent ligand for the aluminum. This will make it easier to work up and separate the mercury.

EDIT: I didn't read your entire post. Majority of the aluminum would be present as soluble chloride anyway, so the Rochelle's salt would be overkill.

[Edited on 11-7-2017 by Loptr]

anonymoose - 11-7-2017 at 18:28

ive just ordered 100grams of Ga, so it would be nice to know if rochelle's salt would remove Ga from Al. i find it funny to notice that my anonymous tag gets much less grief than my actual tag. post numbers mean nothing of a persons knowledge

JJay - 11-7-2017 at 19:37

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

ive just ordered 100grams of Ga, so it would be nice to know if rochelle's salt would remove Ga from Al. i find it funny to notice that my anonymous tag gets much less grief than my actual tag. post numbers mean nothing of a persons knowledge

sock puppet!

DrP - 12-7-2017 at 02:35

I was thinking of making a Hg/Au amalgam some day and maybe purifying some gold with it.

Anonymoose - I'll PM you if I am down your way over the next few months - I'll buy you a beer if you fancy it. :-)

anonymoose - 12-7-2017 at 05:43

Sounds like a plan

Loptr - 12-7-2017 at 06:03

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

Rochelle's salt is pretty standard when it comes to working up aluminum-based reagents, so I would expect it to go somewhat smoothly.

anonymoose - 13-7-2017 at 14:39

Nice to know, thanks

with some more resarch regarding my Hg issue it turns out the authorities are more worried about limiting acquisition of Hg, as far as i can tell. the council, with which i have been in contact, don't seem to give the slightest of turds about me owning Hg. im only guessing here but i think the point of this law is to prosecute drugs and explosive manufacturers. i will keep digging and share my findings

unionised - 14-7-2017 at 09:50

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

I know what I am talking about, and the proof of that is easily verified. But you go ahead and subject what I say to confirmation, whether it involves the reaction I described or anything else I have posted on this board.

You are welcome.

[Edited on 7/11/2017 by Rosco Bodine]

Hi
Sorry for the late reply- cock up with my log in and an old email address.
Just for the record the legislation referred to here was a product, not of the European union, but of the slightly deranged Conservative (i.e. Right wing) government who have no idea what science is, but want to make sure it doesn't happen. (and you might want to look at the psychoactive drugs laws they came up with- but not in this thread)

The legislation is clearly daft. It bans owning a fluorescent light bulb (Hg) or and LED one (As).

However there's still an interesting question about what would happen if you sent the Home Office an note saying "I seem to have been breaking the law for a while".
Is there any reason to imagine that they would be sympathetic?
It's a difficult call, but I'd keep my head down (especially since the UK is currently talking about banning sulphuric acid)

As for " im only guessing here but i think the point of this law is to prosecute drugs and explosive manufacturers. " well, I think you need to guess again.
Those activities were obviously already illegal. There would have been no need for further legislation.
The purpose of the laws was so that the Right wing politicians could claim that- unlike the Left- they were "tough on crime".
The laws are unworkable, but that's not the point. They never needed to be.

[Edited on 14-7-17 by unionised]

JJay - 14-7-2017 at 09:53

I don't think they'd give you a permit necessarily, but I do think that they would help you dispose of illegal chemicals without charging you with a crime. That stated, it would be a good idea to get an attorney since unlike most civilized nations, the UK considers laws to have retroactive force.

Rosco Bodine - 14-7-2017 at 16:00

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

That is very strange. Usually it is liberal left "progressive" (socialist / communist) utopianists (actual dystopianists) ....group think "hive mind types" who are the ones clamoring for more laws and more regulations and fewer individual liberties, while imposing a social engineering agenda that encompasses all human endeavor, put under the despotic and tyrannical absolute control of a nanny state / police state that micromanages the lives of all "ordinary" citizens, usually at the same time fully exempting a "nobler" elite class from such burdensome "laws". That is largely already true all over the world right now as the present reality. What is the extent of liberty a person enjoys depends upon their wealth and means.
For many decades that has been the generality I have witnessed.

As Ringo Starr clearly observed, "Life is like a shit sandwich, the more bread you got, the less shit you have to eat".

Quote:

The legislation is clearly daft. It bans owning a fluorescent light bulb (Hg) or and LED one (As).

However there's still an interesting question about what would happen if you sent the Home Office an note saying "I seem to have been breaking the law for a while".
Is there any reason to imagine that they would be sympathetic?
It's a difficult call, but I'd keep my head down (especially since the UK is currently talking about banning sulphuric acid)

As for " im only guessing here but i think the point of this law is to prosecute drugs and explosive manufacturers. " well, I think you need to guess again.
Those activities were obviously already illegal. There would have been no need for further legislation.
The purpose of the laws was so that the Right wing politicians could claim that- unlike the Left- they were "tough on crime".
The laws are unworkable, but that's not the point. They never needed to be.

[Edited on 14-7-17 by unionised]

Trusting corrupt authority is a mistake. Generally the less others know about what you wisely may better choose to keep your own personal business, the better off you are.

unionised - 14-7-2017 at 16:20

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

Forgive me for drifting from the topic, but...
No.
The liberal Left have noticed that freedoms and laws are two sides of the same coin.
My freedom to do [x] is a restriction of your freedom not to put up with the side effects of[x].
A law that restricts your freedom to kill is a law that grants me the freedom not to be killed.

But thanks for acknowledging that you can't trust a Right wing government to actually do what they said they would.

[Edited on 15-7-17 by unionised]

Rosco Bodine - 14-7-2017 at 17:01

Sure, no problem, I would be the first to acknowledge that excesses and dishonesty is found with zealots for both the far right and the far left and I don't like that hubris from either extreme.

BJ68 - 16-7-2017 at 22:12

Does somebody know why oxalic acid is regulated?

Is it a common chemical in GB and people own a bigger amount or where there incidents, because oxalic acid is not so toxic in my opinion.

Bj68

[Edited on 17-7-2017 by BJ68]

Sulaiman - 16-7-2017 at 23:40

UK EPP legal limit for oxalic acid is 10% w/w, yet pure oxalic acid is still available via eBay uk.
I too wondered why it is illegal,
it would make an un-detectable slow poison - eventually causing kidney stones and renal failure that would seem natural,
I suspect/guess that oxalic acid has use as a selective reducing agent in some 'clandestine' syntheses as I've seen mention of it on the rhodium website.

NEMO-Chemistry - 17-7-2017 at 08:54

Dont try and do the right thing with banned substances, they will prosecute for ownership. Because of this 'find' some by say the road side and report a bottle of some unknown substance that looks funny.

Offer to wait by said bottle so police/whoever can find it. they send police first and close road, then fir brigade comes then a few hours later fire brigade sends incident unit.

Anyway a few hours after you report it its taken away and road is reopened, you are given a visit by police for a statement, where you say i was walking dg or whatever and saw the bottle/container as you had no idea what it was you felt it better to report it. You have no idea where it came from etc etc.

Or you can walk into a police station or waste disposal place, but they will ask questions and yes trust me they will prosecute you. Same now with airguns in Scotland, no amnesty exists. A couple who recently moved into the village found a old one in the shed when they moved in, they took it to the police station.

They have been reported to the procreator fiscal (like the English version of CPS), who will decide if they goto court, 99 times out of 100 it always goes to court. They havnt heard anything yet, but they will. No idea what the court will say or do, but now if this happened to me i would said airgun in a hedge and report it as above!!

England I admit isnt as tough as Scotland, but I know Bloggers had trouble in England and he never came back here to explain what happened, so i guess it wasnt good news.

j_sum1 - 17-7-2017 at 14:54

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry

... I know Bloggers had trouble in England and he never came back here to explain what happened, so i guess it wasnt good news.

blogfast25 is his own story. I am confident that no one knows what really happened; suffice to say that it seems no one involved had any real understanding of chemistry and no desire to keep things proportionate.

anonymoose - 17-7-2017 at 14:58

Unionised; no it is legal to own things that contain As compounds, read my link on first post, specifically says that substances such as copper arsenite are legal. most leds and other electronics contain arsenic semiconductors which are clearly within the law to own. i also posted that the authorities are happy to take away "small" (but undefined) quantities of Hg, so that includes light bulbs.

NEMO-chemistry; i do appreciate what you are saying but my recent research (that i will share later) leads me to reach a different conclusion, but it is a work in progress. i have contacted one recycling centre outside of my area to discuss recycling Hg in larger quantities and they are quite happy with it.

Thanks everybody for all of the input. i will share my conclusions when i am more satisfied that they are correct

unionised - 18-7-2017 at 09:37

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

Unionised; no it is legal to own things that contain As compounds, read my link on first post, specifically says that substances such as copper arsenite are legal.

I read it.
It says"Arsenic and its compounds (other than calcium arsenites, copper acetoarsenite, copper arsenates, copper arsenites, lead arsenates)"
So, for example, copper arsenite is permitted.
Only the handful of compounds listed are exceptions to the rule that arsenic, and its compounds are banned.
Galium arsenide isn't on the list.
LEDs are banned (unless there's some other derogation somewhere).

anonymoose - 18-7-2017 at 16:14

unionised, with the greatest of respect your are being facetious. the owning of LEDs is clearly legal and you are deliberately over simplifying an over complicated legal system. by the same logic you use we wouldn't be able to own a smoke detector because it contains Am which can undergo spontaneous fission and could be turned into a bomb.

(edited some grammar)

[Edited on 19-7-2017 by anonymoose]

anonymoose - 18-7-2017 at 16:30

secondly, this just occurred to me im embarrassed to say (CBA to look up the thread to see who suggested this) if i reported a bottle of mercury that i "found" by the side of the road and reported as a passer by, the police would totally look me up and find my lab and get suspicious as hell, that is a retarded idea. whoever suggested that needs to have a good hard think about how police operate.

DrP - 19-7-2017 at 01:28

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

secondly, this just occurred to me im embarrassed to say (CBA to look up the thread to see who suggested this) if i reported a bottle of mercury that i "found" by the side of the road and reported as a passer by, the police would totally look me up and find my lab and get suspicious as hell, that is a retarded idea. whoever suggested that needs to have a good hard think about how police operate.

Don't worry... I'll come and get it some time in the next 2 months if you are that worried.. As I said - I will be down that way pretty soon for other reasons anyway and can pop in to arrest you, er, sorry, I mean to take it off your hands. ;-)

unionised - 19-7-2017 at 13:09

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

unionised, with the greatest of respect your are being facetious. the owning of LEDs is clearly legal and you are deliberately over simplifying an over complicated legal system. by the same logic you use we wouldn't be able to own a smoke detector because it contains Am which can undergo spontaneous fission and could be turned into a bomb.

(edited some grammar)

[Edited on 19-7-2017 by anonymoose]

The regs dont mention Am
It's not that I'm being facetious; it's that the legislation is extremely poorly framed. It seems to have been written in a hurry for political purposes.
The bits about poisons were rammed into this bizarre piece of legislation
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/20/contents/enacted...

If I'm wrong, show me where in the legislation the LED bulbs are exempted.
This bit might cover it, but I'd need to check with a lawyer.
For the purposes of this section, a substance or mixture is “excluded” if— (a) it is medicinal, or (b) it is contained in a specific object. ... (11) A “specific object” is— (a) an object that, during production, is given a special shape, surface or design that determines its function to a greater degree than does its chemical composition, ...
In particular, a broken LED lamp that no longer works would no longer be exempt.
It's a bit like the psychoactive substances act which bans sex and jogging because the Tories don't understand science.

anonymoose - 19-7-2017 at 16:41

this thread is becoming derailed and it pisses me off.
consumer items that are legal to buy are legal to own when they go wrong.
the law is over complicated but having even the smallest of understanding of the law makes these things obvious.
to "own" any item that can be legally sold in the uk is a LEGAL ownership of said thing. this includes old barometers and a myriad of other things, antique or otherwise.
the question here is about the legality of the ownership of larger quantities of mercury on the order of kilograms.
for the record LEDs contain mostly legal semiconductors of arsenic.
light bulbs contain almost homeopathic quantities of Hg.
the authorities have told me that that are happy to deal with "small quantities" of Hg. thus the legality of these things and their disposal is not questionable.
you are either being facetious or daft. i hope the former.
UK law is retarded but it does follow a self continuous logic. your comments contain only a reaction against chemophobia, which i understand, but is wrong.

anonymoose - 19-7-2017 at 16:44

in my student days i had lawyer friends, trust me, your argument is just silly
(edit;ps i mentioned Am as an attempt to point out the redundancy of your comment. it would take 8x10^8 (number found in my ass) smoke detectors to build a bomb, and a similar number of light bulbs to find a visible quantity of Hg. the chemical composition of LEDs are such that it would take a genius with twenty trillion LEDs to make a visible quantity of As (given losses). and that would result in a pile of plastic that would dwarf the great Pacific gyre.
these things are legal for those reasons)

[Edited on 20-7-2017 by anonymoose]

UkAmateur - 7-8-2017 at 07:16

Just a quick thanks to the OP for posting that link.

I've only recently started back into the amateur chemistry world and have been wondering about my legal status should the authorities become aware of my activities.

As it goes I'm already in breach of several rules/regulations regarding possession of explosive precursors.

And although they were all prepared at home (not purchased) I'm wondering what to do...

I don't mind paying the 40 notes for a licence if it means I'm no longer breaking the law.

And I think I have a reasonable chance of acquiring said licence. But..... If I apply and get turned down.. Have I just notified the authorities of something they might never have known about in the first instance...?

I'm no terrorist or even a terrorist sympathiser. I have no wish to blow up people or buildings. I'm just a regular guy with an interest in things that go BANG!!!

Gonna have to give this some thought... If there are any other UK members who have an insight into the licence procurement/possession process I'd greatly appreciate your input folks..?

Best regards

hissingnoise - 7-8-2017 at 11:50

Quote:

But..... If I apply and get turned down.. Have I just notified the authorities of something they might never have known about in the first instance...?

They will refuse but you'll be on their radar forever.

Be like Dad ─ keep Mum!

NEMO-Chemistry - 3-11-2017 at 16:55

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

Unionised; no it is legal to own things that contain As compounds, read my link on first post, specifically says that substances such as copper arsenite are legal. most leds and other electronics contain arsenic semiconductors which are clearly within the law to own. i also posted that the authorities are happy to take away "small" (but undefined) quantities of Hg, so that includes light bulbs.

NEMO-chemistry; i do appreciate what you are saying but my recent research (that i will share later) leads me to reach a different conclusion, but it is a work in progress. i have contacted one recycling centre outside of my area to discuss recycling Hg in larger quantities and they are quite happy with it.

Thanks everybody for all of the input. i will share my conclusions when i am more satisfied that they are correct

Then your living in Devon for sure, they have recycle centers that are run by non council staff.

They will take anything that makes money lol. But generally anything else illegal chemical wise and isnt metallic...... Dont try it.

I am willing to bet post code wont be far off EX2

anonymoose - 15-12-2017 at 16:43

Well as i said, i have done research outside of my area so feel free to conjecture but hypotheses are often false.
PS I have had a lot of (crappy) real life stuff going on so sorry for the massive delay in posting. hope everyone is ok

(edit; adding detail to make this post less pointless)

i have found a new link that further clarifies/muddies the law...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosi...

in this link it describes how some chemicals that would be "regulated" substances in the previous link are now lesser "reportable" substances, which i read as being "dodgy but not illegal as such" including acetone etc which is readily available and clearly not banned, but could be used to make explosives.

interestingly the latter group includes mercuric chloride/iodide for some reason.

thats all the research ive done since last post because life has thrown me a few turds to dodge.

[Edited on 16-12-2017 by anonymoose]
(edited typo, CBA with grammar tonight, im tired)

[Edited on 16-12-2017 by anonymoose]

NEMO-Chemistry - 15-12-2017 at 18:26

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

Well as i said, i have done research outside of my area so feel free to conjecture but hypotheses are often false.
PS I have had a lot of (crappy) real life stuff going on so sorry for the massive delay in posting. hope everyone is ok

I am in Scotland, its very different up here to England, especially the south west! If you read the other thread i have contacted the police, they still havnt got back to me.

Long story short i have opened a registered company (not going to trade much, maybe soap) But it will help with me doing 'research'.
The difference in legal systems between England and Scotland is huge, I wrote about the side of the road thing, up here that would be the best way....

Well would of been, things change once you become legit by the look of it, take a read of the other thread, it affects England more than Scotland. ALL legit Chem suppliers are now submitting sales reports to the police, the list of chemicals include MANY items not on any controlled list yet.

I am told this is the new proactive approach to terrorism, its one reason I have now come out the woodwork, that and the simple fact I want to learn, i want to do it properly and that means being legal.

I did look up Bloggers case, i wont pass comment except to say its a good example that the police are not taking it lightly.

anonymoose - 16-12-2017 at 17:12

NEMO-Chemistry ; i am not familiar with "bloggers" problem, i assume u mean blogfast. if u can give a link to the issue that would be nice so long as it isnt counter to his case.

i am honestly somewhat relieved by the info in my last link. sure the powers that be are collecting data but i have 2 answers for that.

1) it isnt hard to locally source stuff and that helps to reduce ones online footprint.
2) i believe that they are just paranoid idiots cross referencing data of people purchasing large quantities of explosive (or drug) precursors. just dont buy too many suspicious things (and dont make drugs or explosives) and you should be fine. and if u do make energetics then buy precursors to precursors and do it smart.

(edit, 3rd answer; the idiots that collect data have so much data that they cant process it and it becomes useless for anything other than proving a person did something after they did it and have a name and a terrorist attack to apply it to)

for the record i dont make explosives, just saying.

anyhoo if you have evidence that im wrong then please share it but i think SM is a tad like Israel, persecuted so much that its turned a little paranoid. no offence intended to anyone, ive often felt it myself.

(edited paragraphing)
[Edited on 17-12-2017 by anonymoose]

[Edited on 17-12-2017 by anonymoose]

j_sum1 - 16-12-2017 at 19:48

Blogfast was incarcerated for activities related to his home chemistry and supply of chems to others. Publically available details are sketchy and you have to wade through acres of hyperbole in the media. It seems like a combination of administrative oversight on the part of bloggers combined with an overreaction on the part of the authorities with the intention of making an example of him.
The bottom line is that the authorities in the UK are serious and there can be dire consequences. Which is why discussions on doing things properly are so important.

[Edited on 17-12-2017 by j_sum1]

NEMO-Chemistry - 17-12-2017 at 03:00

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Blogfast was incarcerated for activities related to his home chemistry and supply of chems to others. Publically available details are sketchy and you have to wade through acres of hyperbole in the media. It seems like a combination of administrative oversight on the part of bloggers combined with an overreaction on the part of the authorities with the intention of making an example of him.
The bottom line is that the authorities in the UK are serious and there can be dire consequences. Which is why discussions on doing things properly are so important.

[Edited on 17-12-2017 by j_sum1]

That pretty much sums it up, the thought that they dont have time is misleading. I assume they have a system for this, they are looking for certain chems that keep popping up but are not restricted, like Acetone for example.

If you think the chances are slim they will show up, then you misguided. Everything i have been told so far, makes me think there is also alot of profiling going on, they are not trying to stop chemistry, they are trying to stop acid attacks and bomb making.

I know the following for sure..

The police get a list every WEEK from chem suppliers, this details who brought what and how much of it, it covers around 140 chems.

Order a few chems with most being benign at the chance of a visit is lower. Order a full on pyro order and for sure your activities regarding purchases will be watched.

I suspect they also do background checks (wouldnt take long), so your history plays a part. In all honesty the more you hide the more you attract attention.

anonymoose - 2-1-2018 at 17:21

with no offence intended, the arrest was about selling chemicals to unregistered people. i would bet money on that beaing the reason.

im not a betting person so that should speak volumes.

I am fully aware that home chemistry is a hobby that is disliked by authorities
dont buy stuff that is banned, stuff u aquired before a ban can be answerd for. my stuff was purchased in around 1960 ish

my whole purpose here was to ask for help regarding disposal of Hg, but it was pointless because of paranoyed people that have no idea of the law
this irritates me more than the law
this forum should educate us but it fails to do so

Assured Fish - 2-1-2018 at 20:49

Quote:

this forum should educate us but it fails to do so

I disagree entirely, this is a chemistry forum and a damn fine one at that (not sure if you have realized this given your post history), If your question was dirrectly related to chemistry then im sure you would get the biggest schooling of your life. The issue is that your topic is political in nature.
In fact not only is this topic political, its irrationally one of the most infuriating and down right bull shit topics on the entire forum.
The banning of those compounds in their entirety is nothing short of insanity, i go red in the face just thinking about it.
I suspect most of us feel the same as me, hence the nature of the replies.

This is only accentuated by the fact that we are all a bunch of backward thinking anarchs that would like nothing better than an island all to ourselves where we can summon untold horrors from the deep pits of the void without anyone ever asking the infuriatingly retarded question of why.

If i lived in the UK, i would likely be packing up my lab and getting the fuck out of that shit pit, slandering it as i walk onto the plane.
There aint not way in hell i could ever live in an oppressive nanny state such as what the UK is turning into.

Alas, this still doesn't answer your original question.
I haven't the foggiest clue what you should do with the arsenic beyond packing it into a nice storage container and hiding it in the deepest darkest corner you know of.
However that list says nothing about sulfides of mercury, why not simply react it with a bunch of sulfur and then put it into storage, If you don't want to store cinnabar (your a fucken pussy if you don't) then i would simply take it to a disposal site and tell them exactly what it is.
This won't get you into any trouble at all as its a naturally occurring mineral.

I haven't a fucken clue why oxalic acid is on that list given how much you need to eat in order to poison yourself (several grams).
I would however just oxidize it in some piranha or fentons reagent.

Also has anyone actually tried to apply for one of those licenses.

anonymoose - 4-1-2018 at 18:07

Assured fish.
I find that when i find an opinion that i cannot find a logical counteragument to it is often because i dont understand it.

the forum has thus far FAILED mostly due to paranoya and an inability to read legal documentation.

don't get me wrong, i am often paranoyed regarding chemistry but i have at least read the law. perhaps the forum does not fail us but this thread does.

as for being "schooled" i am an old hand at this and i take issue with that statement. you know nothing of who i am and my scientific knoledge, but that is the point of this isnt it.

this isnt a political thread it is about the law as it stands in the coutry i live. a political thread would mention how much better the UK is than a country that voted for an idiot like trump, BUT that really is a thing to be disgussed elsewhere.

this isnt a political thread so please leave politics out of it.

your later statements are infact inccorect. it is stated that owning arsenic compounds is ok eg copperarsenate, it is also stated in other legal documentation that mercury sulphide is legal to own.

if you are not deliberatley misunderstanding the law then you are acting in a very paranoid manner.

as for oxalic acid it has a long history of use as a poison used in numerous murders, beyond that i have no idea.

lastly, while i criticize paranoya i suffer from it myself so please dont take offence

Assured Fish - 4-1-2018 at 21:23

anonymoose then ill take the date 1-1-2000 which is written on your profile as inaccurate.
The fact that you think of yourself so highly as to think you cannot be shot off your high horse speaks volumes about your age and background.
(young and foolish, despite the age of your body)
Everybody can be wrong and to get the schooling of your life at the age of 60 would be far from unheard of.
The value of your words can only be judged on the validity of those words, not your age or background.

Alas i am here to school you.
This thread is political in nature, whether this was your intention or not, as it directly concerns the current UK governments and the laws that they are putting into place in supposed retaliation to a problem that they created in the first place.

Quote:

as far as i can tell. the council, with which i have been in contact, don't seem to give the slightest of turds about me owning Hg

Were these not your words?

Quote:

it is stated that owning arsenic compounds is ok eg copperarsenate, it is also stated in other legal documentation that mercury sulphide is legal to own.

Or these?
It is more than apparent that your original questions have been answered, maybe not so much as they were served to you on a silver platter but nothing ever is.
You have been told multiple times that you can just take it to a waste disposal site and say "hey i found some of this stuff while clearing out an old shed can you guys get rid of it".
To think that this wouldn't work would be truly paranoid.

I have also illustrated to you that you can just oxidized the oxalic acid to destroy it, now i realize i said oxidize it using piranha (which would require H2O2) however the fucken air is full of oxygen and its not hard to get your hands on a reducing agent (after all the stuff literally grows on trees) and then incinerate the oxalic acid, this could be accomplished with generally all organics with a few exceptions.

Quote:

your later statements are infact inccorect

I suspect your are reffering to this:

Quote:

I haven't the foggiest clue what you should do with the arsenic beyond packing it into a nice storage container and hiding it in the deepest darkest corner you know of. However that list says nothing about sulfides of mercury, why not simply react it with a bunch of sulfur and then put it into storage, If you don't want to store cinnabar (your a fucken pussy if you don't) then i would simply take it to a disposal site and tell them exactly what it is. This won't get you into any trouble at all as its a naturally occurring mineral.

In which case I was not wrong and i told absolutely no fibs.

Finally to YOUR last statements.
To kill a fully grown adult human, one would need to consume in excess of 10 grams of oxalic acid, this combined with the symptoms being very treatable and detectable and the stuff being very acidic and likely very noticeable in ones food.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3527234/
This would make oxalic acid one of the worse ways to kill someone EVER.
There a hundreds of far more effective and easily available toxins that would do a better job.
For this reason, i seriously doubt your claim of oxalic acid being used to murder someone and so i would kindly ask that you provide some evidence of this.

The only cases of people being poisoned from it that i could logically discern, would be of children eating large amounts of rhubarb leaves, or as in the case of my reference, someone trying to commit suicide.
The former being impossible to mitigate beyond banning rhubarb.
The latter being pointless as people will only find other ways to kill themselves (probably much more lethal ways to kill themselves).

anonymoose - 5-1-2018 at 17:20

(edit, this is directed at "assured fish")
anything in my profile is inacurate as it is designed to be anonymous, obviously.

I dont think of myself particularly highly, but dispite my flaws I am quite well educated in chemistry and you would find it hard to make me look otherwise.

to claim to know that i am young and foolish is just a personal attack i wont rise to.

alas no i am not "schooled" this thread is about legality, not politics, the two are associated but distinct.

your next point is slightly disturbing in so far as your selective memory;
you said "You have been told multiple times that you can just take it to a waste disposal site" and yet i was told, and i did mention this, that they only take limited quantites.

worse the following quote makes no sense; "I have also illustrated to you that you can just oxidized the oxalic acid to destroy it, now i realize i said oxidize it using piranha (which would require H2O2) however the fucken air is full of oxygen and its not hard to get your hands on a reducing agent (after all the stuff literally grows on trees) and then incinerate the oxalic acid, this could be accomplished with generally all organics with a few exceptions."

all this crap said while this is legal to own below 40% so diluting it might be easier.

with regards to arsenic its easier to convert into copper arsenate so bollock to paying for storage.

as to converting Hg to the sulphide i think you underestimate (or forgot to read) how much Hg i have.

yes you told no fibs but were either not reading the thread fully or being arrogant. i hope the former.

oxalic acid, as you say, is a crap murder device, but i refuse to provide evidence on account of the fact that a simple google search would find many examples. it is an old school murder chemical, this is historical fact, it doesnt make it clever, but its true.

regarding rhubarb you are being flippant.
as for suicide people do actually drink bleach so lets not try and explore the logic of that awfull and dark hole.

regardless your arguments have been weak at best.

try again to "school" me, you have failed thus far.

kind regards

[Edited on 6-1-2018 by anonymoose]

ninhydric1 - 5-1-2018 at 17:37

Prove your claim that you're "well educated in chemistry" then by helping out people on this forum instead of arguing over political paranoia. Also, if you're going to trash talk the people and this forum, GTFO.

anonymoose - 6-1-2018 at 17:15

ninhydric1

My profile is an anonymous one, and as such (sock puppet as it is) you cannot claim to know what other contributions i have made to this forum.

You would know this if you actually read the thread.

but my main problem with what you say (but mostly with "assured fish") is the notion that one can look at a persons number of posts (and age but in my case thats made up) and choose to talk in an insuferable manner to that person. i believe in america its called "hazing" a newcomer.

there is no place for this in science.

when i defend myself after being unreasonably attacked, it seems odd that you come to support the person that makes idiotic claims/attacks instead of a reasoned or scientific logic.

i know i got annoyed and referenced trump, my bad, and i spose im a little sorry for that. but i think you will find that most of my replys are scientific

as for claiming that i can prove i'm well educated? what u wana see my qualifications? get lost.

as for talking trash, you should GTFO, im responding to trash talk with logic. like it or not I was the one being treated like crap.

to both of you:

Grow up and realise that "noobs" to the forum arent all ignorant.

lastly; again i have a lot of Hg to react and when small experiments are repeated on large scale things do tend to work quite differently.

ELRIC - 7-1-2018 at 09:38

Man, this is like watching franklyn and bffeser going at it all over again.

SM is the greatest chemistry forum on the planet. How can you get on here and

not learn, as stated before “ this forum should educate us but fails to do so”?

I’ve lurked here since prolly 06. This is looking like a one way ticket to Detritus.

I have no beef with anyone on this forum, and intend to keep it that way. IMHO, there

has been ample suggestions on what to do with the Hg. Although, I wonder what

blogfast would have to say about it.

OldNubbins - 7-1-2018 at 11:12

I don't know if I am alone in thinking this, but if I see someone spending an inordinate amount of time defending themselves from 'unreasonable attacks', then maybe their position isn't as sound as they would have me think. I think ninhydric1 was just trying to say you will get more respect from the demonstration of knowledge rather than the assertion of it.

These are just words on a screen, they cannot hurt you, chill.....

anonymoose - 7-1-2018 at 16:58

Elric
well said " this forum should educate us but fails to do so” i meant to say this "thread" many appologies. this forum is wonderful, and i miss spoke. sorry

as for examples to do with Hg, i am aware of them but large scale chem, ive never dealt with industiral levels and dealt only in small quantites and i find this somwhat daunting. perhaps thats my problem. but i know from experience that scaling things up often has issues.

Old nubbins
i am not sure why i cant get this accross but here it is again:
if you look through my replys you will see that i am mostly agreeable and logical

i CANNOT (as in i am litterally unable to) demonstrate my knowledge upon this forum, due to its being a sock puppet profile

a profile that is ANONYMOUS

i understand why people keep persisting in talking to me but please dont unless you have read the whole thread

its almost as if you want me to get annoyed with you
please dont post unless youve read the thread fully, and please lets get back to processing or otherwise dealing with the UK law Re illegal substances.
lets please keep this profesional??

anonymoose - 8-1-2018 at 16:04

hello again everyone.
with frustration faded i would like to try again at pushing this thread towards its original purpose.

while i have been insulted i accidentily insulted the entire forum and i appologise unreservedly.

but to move on and to summarise we have found several methods of disposing of (UK) illegal chemicals that are practical;

Oxalic acid ; dilute it to or below 40%

Arsenic oxide; react with NaOH to form sodium arsenate then react with

copper sulphate to yield copper arsenate and sodium sulphate, separation of those is trivial.

Mercury (small quantities) react with a mixture of Ca(OH)2 and sulphur (i forget the ratios but ask and i will provide them. (large scale reactions of this type are combersome and yield vast quantites of chemical waste that either requires purification or explanations of large volumes of chemical waste at waste processing facilities, trust me i researched as much, or dont)

it would be nice if people could add methods for the other chemicals in the list

as for nitric acid i would behave as though it is legal to produce nitric acid in situ, for eg for nitration adding a nitrate salt in correct amounts to conc H2SO4, but i have not tried this. so its just a thought. but i have read about this method and never tried it.

please add to this thread if you have further thoughts

again i honestly did not mean to speak ill of this forum, only this thread. but i do feel i was badly treated. regardless, please add to this because it expands what british people can do legally.

DrP - 9-1-2018 at 03:06

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

while i have been insulted i accidentily insulted the entire forum and i appologise unreservedly.

but to move on and to summarise we have found several methods of disposing of (UK) illegal chemicals that are practical;

again i honestly did not mean to speak ill of this forum, only this thread. but i do feel i was badly treated. regardless, please add to this because it expands what british people can do legally.

You seem fine to me. It is fashionable for people that don't know what they are talking about to take control and wave their dicks about in the world at the moment - so I wouldn't worry about some moron not knowing what they are talking about having a go at you now. Maybe you insulted them - so what - what you said was correct.

You have no need to post your Degree certificate and resume here to prove anything. So what if some guy from half way around the world knows nothing of our laws and has been brain washed into thinking we are a sinking ship so he should keep voting right wing? It has nothing to do with the chemistry... you didn't make it political - they did when they started attacking our law without any understanding of it. I'd ignore ignorance like that - you can't reason with them... it's political not scientific.

w.r.t. your mercury - My Dorset trip got cancelled, so sorry - I cannot pick it up. If you still have it around Easter then I might go to the Jurassic coast for a few days and maybe can take it then, unless someone else has baggsied it by then, or you find a better way to get rid of it.

Happy new year!

ninhydric1 - 9-1-2018 at 07:57

Anonymoose, I made my post on the fact you called this forum "unable to educate", but I appreciate your clarification and apology. Just to clarify, I wasn't defending assured fish, but was slightly offended by your above statement. Threads in legal and societal issues never educate anyway, so no surprise there.

About the subject on qualifications, I just don't like those who flaunt their qualifications in a valid debate. I know those who are uneducated (didn't go to college) who are extremely intelligent, so have a college degree isn't a definite advantage over some else in an equal argument, especially if you're anonymous.

DrP - 9-1-2018 at 08:31

Quote: Originally posted by ninhydric1

so have a college degree isn't a definite advantage over some else in an equal argument, especially if you're anonymous.

In his defence - he didn't go flaunting anything nor did he boast about any qualifications.... he was just attacked with "let me school on this boy" by the poster - which was followed with ignorant political garbage which showed no knowledge of our laws at all. Thus I defended him above..... not that he needs it.

ninhydric1 - 9-1-2018 at 09:20

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

I am quite well educated in chemistry and you would find it hard to make me look otherwise.

From my POV, this sounds as if he is claiming to be more intelligent than others. I believe he is probably a highly educated person, but no need to repeat it. You have mentioned it already.

Anyway, with the Hg, just wait until someone comes to pick up. If you are really scared about Hg leakage, just convert to HgS. It's insoluble and easy to prepare if you have sulfur. You can store long term in this chemical compound. It's much easier just to store it as metal under water in a sturdy plastic container.

anonymoose - 9-1-2018 at 16:00

ninhydric1
I appreciate the acceptance of my appology.
WRT my statement;
"I am quite well educated in chemistry and you would find it hard to make me look otherwise."

i am unappologetic for that because i actually am quite well educated in chemistry (obsessed in fact) and while others might be better educated they would find it hard to prove me to be uneducated, because i simply am not. but it is true that there are vast and gaping voids in my knowledge of chemistry but surely that is true of everyone.

Seriously though can we please redirect this thread towards actually facing this list and dealing with it?

that was the whole point in this thread, i hoped it would become a sticky but no hope there methinks. well perhaps a little if a mod could tidy it up.

TO ANY BODY THAT READS THIS;
find a chemical in the list and propose a method of disposal/conversion that is helpful to the comunity PLEASE! even if its not fully thought through

all suggestions welcome

anonymoose - 9-1-2018 at 16:07

DrP lol thanks for your interesting and colourfuly distiled sumary.

WRT my Hg its still waiting to find a loving home so we will see

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-1-2018 at 18:01

Buying Mercury is a problem, finding you have some old mercury is not. Owning mercury you are given since the ban is not ok. But scientific instruments are ok as long as they are in tact.

In short if you clear grandads shed and find a load your ok, if you buy a load off someones grandad your not ok. If you have a large mercury thermometer collection your ok.

With mercury the rules about keeping it out of products and the environment etc. Most regulated and LA owned recycle centers will take it if its not a stupid amount.

Thats a distilled phone call asking someone who deals with this.

OldNubbins - 9-1-2018 at 20:27

Quote:

Thats a distilled phone call asking someone who deals with this.

Was it done under vacuum?

woelen - 11-1-2018 at 11:45

I have the impression that many of the regulations (REACH) are about the use for all kinds of processes in daily life, beit industrial or done by private persons. E.g. in the Netherlands, you may not sell potassium dichromate as a mordant for skins and leather. It also may not be used for cleaning purposes and may not be sold as such. It, however, still is sold, also to individuals, by quite a few suppliers, as a general lab chemical.

So, I have the impression that many toxic chemicals may not be sold as cleaning agents, hobby products, arts supplies, etc. with fancy brand names intented to be used by a large public. If they are sold simply as the chemical, under its chemical name, then I have the impression they still are available, also to private individuals. Only Na/K-chlorates, Na/K-perchlorates, nitric acid, conc. H2O2 and CH3NO2 are really prohibited. H2SO4, KMnO4, acetic anhydride, and a few others require the buyer to fill in a declaration of use form. A few weeks ago I even could buy chlorosulfonic acid, which is insanely corrosive and extremely reactive towards water. No questions asked, not even a declaration of use. Only shipping was more expensive than normal postal shipping, I assume because of its corrosive nature.

anonymoose - 11-1-2018 at 16:59

turns out i made a mistake, oxlic acid must be at most 10 %

anonymoose - 11-1-2018 at 17:12

Woelen, i refer specifically to UK law, while it is based on EU law i dont know how these differ. i speak only about UK law and it appears that they might Differ. (for what its worth i voted to stay in EU) many chemicals are still sold in the uk but with the legal provision that they be quietly reported to authorities.
for example i can buy acetone and hydrogen peroxide but doing so online (above certain concentrations) is risky.
while they can be bought locally it usually requires knoledge of what things are made from in advance
i am quite good at sourcing materials and am more interested in the disposal of those that i cant get rid of by easier means. hence this thread. PS in this particular post i am quite drunk so appologies if this is in some way stupid or insulting etc

DrP - 16-1-2018 at 02:44

Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose

i refer specifically to UK law, while it is based on EU law i dont know how these differ. i speak only about UK law and it appears that they might

EU law IS UK law. REACH is the law regarding chemicals and registration of - it outlines direction for the writing of SDSs etc. IDK if it says anything about private people owning chems though.

IDK if the UK has and EXTRA laws it has introduced on top of REACH - I doubt it.

woelen - 16-1-2018 at 04:08

For me things are quite simple. I have a hobby. If I have to read hundreds of pages of legal rules about how to label things, how to store things, how to use things, and so on, then I have no fun anymore and then I will quit. I use common sense and have taken the following measures:
- fire fighting equipment in the lab (sand, CO2-extinguisher, running water, a blanket). This set can handle many different kinds of fire.
- storage: acids together, oxidizers together, separate from other stuff, corrosive stuff like acyl chlorides together. Bulk amounts of flammables (liter bottles) are not stored in the lab, but in our garage, which is not in the house. Other chemicals grouped according to some list, so that I can find them quickly again by looking up the list.
- experimenting: use microscale, test tubes instead of jars. This saves money and produces less waste.
- waste: solvents I evaporate in air, outside. Because I work on a microscale, I seldomly evaporate more than a few ml. Heavy metal waste I collect and bring to a municipal processing facility. Same for toxic less volatile organics. Rest of waste goes down the drain with lots of water.
- I try to keep my lab clean. No dust on workbenches and floor. Only few open shelves, nearly all my stuff is in a more or less dust-free storage.

With this kind of common sense I can keep my hobby safe and I am doing this already for 30 years or so and never had a bad accident. The worst things I had were broken glass, little burns on the hand (less than half a square cm) or small cuts from sharp items, while I have been experimenting quite intensely, at high frequency.

I respect all the effort some members over here put in getting info about all rules, but that is not my thing. If I happened to have a company, making a profit of my lab, then of course it would be different, but now I just am interested in the science and use common sense and caution when it comes to safety, clean working and causing as little as possible environmental strain. If authorities really would pursue me and force me to adhere strictly to all kinds of regulations like REACH, then I will quit and find another science hobby (e.g. electronics, mathematics).

The few chemicals which are not allowed anymore because of the explosives precursors law I do not buy anymore, nor do I have them in stock in bigger quantities. I can make K/NaClO3 myself by electrolysis, the same for K/NaClO4 from legal NH4ClO4, the same for HNO3 by distillation and I can concentrate 12% H2O2 to well above 20% without too much trouble. That is enough for me. I work in small scale, so no need for a liter or a kilo of these chemicals. 50 ml of self-distilled HNO3 or 100 grams of home made KClO3 (from KCl) goes a long way in my lab. The only difficult thing is CH3NO2, this is not easily made at home. It be so.

NEMO-Chemistry - 16-1-2018 at 06:42

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

For me things are quite simple. I have a hobby. If I have to read hundreds of pages of legal rules about how to label things, how to store things, how to use things, and so on, then I have no fun anymore and then I will quit. I use common sense and have taken the following measures:
- fire fighting equipment in the lab (sand, CO2-extinguisher, running water, a blanket). This set can handle many different kinds of fire.
- storage: acids together, oxidizers together, separate from other stuff, corrosive stuff like acyl chlorides together. Bulk amounts of flammables (liter bottles) are not stored in the lab, but in our garage, which is not in the house. Other chemicals grouped according to some list, so that I can find them quickly again by looking up the list.
- experimenting: use microscale, test tubes instead of jars. This saves money and produces less waste.
- waste: solvents I evaporate in air, outside. Because I work on a microscale, I seldomly evaporate more than a few ml. Heavy metal waste I collect and bring to a municipal processing facility. Same for toxic less volatile organics. Rest of waste goes down the drain with lots of water.
- I try to keep my lab clean. No dust on workbenches and floor. Only few open shelves, nearly all my stuff is in a more or less dust-free storage.

With this kind of common sense I can keep my hobby safe and I am doing this already for 30 years or so and never had a bad accident. The worst things I had were broken glass, little burns on the hand (less than half a square cm) or small cuts from sharp items, while I have been experimenting quite intensely, at high frequency.

I respect all the effort some members over here put in getting info about all rules, but that is not my thing. If I happened to have a company, making a profit of my lab, then of course it would be different, but now I just am interested in the science and use common sense and caution when it comes to safety, clean working and causing as little as possible environmental strain. If authorities really would pursue me and force me to adhere strictly to all kinds of regulations like REACH, then I will quit and find another science hobby (e.g. electronics, mathematics).

The few chemicals which are not allowed anymore because of the explosives precursors law I do not buy anymore, nor do I have them in stock in bigger quantities. I can make K/NaClO3 myself by electrolysis, the same for K/NaClO4 from legal NH4ClO4, the same for HNO3 by distillation and I can concentrate 12% H2O2 to well above 20% without too much trouble. That is enough for me. I work in small scale, so no need for a liter or a kilo of these chemicals. 50 ml of self-distilled HNO3 or 100 grams of home made KClO3 (from KCl) goes a long way in my lab. The only difficult thing is CH3NO2, this is not easily made at home. It be so.

I fully understand your position and reasons.

My effort regarding the law is based on fear, we do infact have different laws to the EU.

What most are unaware of is the details of the counter terrorism act, to be blunt........There is little you can do that you cannot be arrested for on the grounds of suspected terrorism.

The Laws that were recently toughened when DC was prime minster,. put the icing on the cake. In the UL the authorities dont need a warrant to listen to your phone call, read your email etc.

Every call you make or email you write of every web page you visit is recorded. Every person is recorded on camera o minimum of 200+ times a day.

I am testing the rules and seeing how they are applied, i am trying to see who applies them and what we can do safely.

So far its starting to look like the system is a complete mess, the best we can do is find out where the line is drawn, this is different from the actual rules. Also while we do use REACH for industry, REACH has no protection inside the UK, it is the anti terror laws that will be used to limit sodium hydroxide etc.

Nothing actually needs to be done, all they intend to do is restrict who suppliers can supply to, then prosecute and jail any suppliers who dont comply. Hence our recent friends experience.

Woelen I am almost 100% sure where you live, common sense prevails. I dont see the same fear of terror there or the governments desire to know how many shits a day you take.

I am reading transcripts of speeches in parliament by Nick Clegg, these were when he was in coalition. Hansard or whtever they call it is also useful. It appears the Lib Dems had legit fears about our human rights, its a real shame they didnt explain the consequences properly.

I sound like a nutter, i am aware of this. But the more i dig the more horrified i am, i was pro Brexit, i have changed my mind based purely on the human rights court.

Seriously as mad as it sounds, that aint no light at the end of the tunnel, thats a fucking train coming.

ninhydric1 - 16-1-2018 at 17:29

First time I feel lucky living in the USA. I hope you guys won't lose this intriguing hobby that is amateur chemistry over there in the UK and the EU. Really wish chemophobia wasn't so prevalent in the world today as it was decades ago.