Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Silver Oxalate

Silver Oxalate

a123x - 10-6-2003 at 14:49

I intend to make some silver oxalate today by dissolving ammonium nitrate into vinegar, then heating this with a piece of sterling silver and a 1964 dime until they dissolve, finally adding this to oxalic acid and collecting the silver oxalate and the small amount of copper oxalate which are insoluble. The reason I use vinegar to make the nitric acid is because the acetate ions won't interfer with the solubility of Ag+ where sulfate and chloride would. Anyway I was wondering if anyone has ever made silver oxalate. I understand it isn't that spectacular of an explosive but I was just wondering if anyone knew its sensitivity and its power?

Haggis - 10-6-2003 at 14:53

I'm sure you've checked this page out, but here's some info for members that have not. http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/silver_oxalate.htm
If only I had a larger source for silver. My only current sources are, like you said, old coins and I do not particularly want to dissolve my old coinage.

a123x - 10-6-2003 at 17:21

I see what you mean. Now you make me think that maybe I should save my dime, after all I do like to hang on to semi-rare coins. Either way I still have the piece of sterling silver to use. I wonder what the silver content is of lead free solder that has silver in it. The one I was looking at earlier had Cu, antimony, and tin I believe. Perhaps dissolving some of it into nitric acid then adding pieces of copper to replace the silver would be an effective way to extract the silver, then its just a matter of dissolving the silver in fresh nitric acid. Also silver isn't that expensive so it could still be bought if one really wanted to.

Haggis - 10-6-2003 at 20:01

IIRC they sell 'silver solder'. My electronics teacher had some and kept it in his drawer so his students couldn't get a hold of it. Supposedly a bit more expensive. He told us what exactly it was used for, some special application, but I was too busy playing on the network. I think it has some lead in there too, to lower the melting point, but I'm sure you can find a way to chemically separate it out.

Madog - 11-6-2003 at 05:07

i would definatey think that theres some lead in there. i got silver from my mom, she had a really ugly bracelet that someone gave to her.

if your mom has alot of jewlerey its worth a try asking her i bet, im sure theres something she doesnt want. or maybe my mom is just messed up.

anyways, i made some silver acetylide*silver nitrate with it and it came out nice, beautiful, very white color

careful with buying silver nitrate

Polverone - 11-6-2003 at 14:32

For reasons that remain unclear to me, .999 fine bullion metallic silver is often 1/5 (or less) the price of an equivalent mass of AgNO3. It's not like nitrate anions are expensive. So I will summarize the counterintuitive pricing as "it's what the market will bear."

You can probably save considerable money making your own AgNO3 out of silver bullion if you have HNO3 on hand. But, of course, it's always easier to buy premade materials.

Darkfire - 11-6-2003 at 19:20

I've made it before but it was at school so i could do no testing on it, actualy i made about 8 different oxalates, it was some lab to test solubility i dont even think our teacher knew any explosive were involed in the lab

, another lab in my school was Mn2O7 but to test color changes,

CTR

Polverone - 12-6-2003 at 12:17

I can get silver in the form of .999 fine bullion coins or bars from a local coins and precious metals dealer; you could probably order online from one of the various bullion dealers (good sources for gold, platinum, sometimes palladium too, if you can afford to buy those metals). I haven't yet whipped up any AgNO3 from it though since my existing stock (which I inherited from a friendly chem teacher who was cleaning out old chemicals) is consumed only slowly. If you buy an entire kg of AgNO3 at once the markup may not be so outrageous, but in various places I have seen it sold for about $1.00/g in small quantities. That's pretty bad if you just want 50 g or so.

coins dealers online

Organikum - 13-6-2003 at 07:39

EBAY. What else. Also I don´t like those running this place and their politics and would everybody advise never to buy something chemistry related there, silver is no problem and cheap to get this way. (of course only take the name from EBAY and contact the dealer otherwise to save auction costs and not to feed the assholes. This may be regarded the only way to buy glass/labware there also).

Haggis - 13-6-2003 at 14:09

Recently on a jobsite, I was doing some light excavation. I happened to come across a long shiny object. Once the dirt was wiped off, I found it to be a knife. It is butter knife variety and quite old looking, however quite shiny for how long/deep it was. The previous building on that lot was an old house from the turn of the century. I am thinking this could be silver, as it has no markings stating it is Stainless Steel. Is there any tests to conduct to see if it is indeed silver? If it really is silver, I have myself quite a bit of oxalate possibilities!

vulture - 14-6-2003 at 09:12

React with HNO3, then displace with NaCl. White insoluble solid that redissolves in Na2S2O3 or NH3 solution = silver.

Iv4 - 16-6-2003 at 02:02

The best place to get silver I've found(was going to experiment with silver fulminate but sadly I got cut short)is from a jewlery shop.The prices might be a little higher than on ebay but it's more reliable and no delivary cost(if you pick it up yourself anyway).The best part probably is that it's not going to be monitered.

[Edited on 16-6-2003 by Iv4]

hodges - 9-1-2005 at 14:26

Okay, did anyone else ever make this?

I made a small amount (fraction of a gram) of silver oxalate. It was disapointing. When I held a lighter to it it would sputter and make little puffs of air/smoke which almost blew out the lighter flame. But the decomposition was not self-sustaining. According to CRC it has a low decomposition temperature (something like 140C if I recall) so I guess you could have fun dropping small bits of it on a hot plate.

Primers: Oxalates

Phill88 - 22-8-2005 at 11:55

hi guys
i've read sometimes that some oxalates are explosive(Silver oxalate). i made silver oxalate of AgNO3 and oxalic acid. then i tried if copper oxalate is explosive too( it isn't

)

does anyone of you have better information obaut exlposive oxalates(VoD. ?g/ccm) ?
and which are applicable to be used as primers.

kind regards
phill

Axt - 22-8-2005 at 17:52

Try searching: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=772

Quote:

Originally from PATR2700 8,O31
Ag Oxalate
It was not ignited by the spit of a fuze when compressed in a detonator capsule, and was not detonated by 0.25g of MF.
Warren (Ref 7) evaluated Ag oxalate as a possible replacement for MF in primer compns, and concluded that it lacked the sensitivity necessay for an initiating agent. Sensitivity data ‘obtained. are given below:

Drop Test (BurMines app; 2kg wt) 90" (TNT= 14" PicArsn app; 2kg wt)
Expln Temp Test: 5 sec 210°
Sand Test (200g bomb)
Initiation ‘by fuse, g sand crushed: 0 (zero!)
Initiation by 0.3g MF, g sand crushed: 0 (zero!)

Conclusion: Cant be initiated to detonation with MF, very insesitive to impact, only of limited novelty value, and definately a waste of Ag!

Phill88 - 23-8-2005 at 08:53

thanks for your support