Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Do you think it is immoral to steal chemicals and equipment?

Do you think it is immoral to steal chemicals and equipment?

JJay - 11-2-2018 at 18:02

Occasionally, when reading some guide or other, or when discussing sundry chemistry topics with the denizens of these interwebs, someone suggests obtaining chemicals or equipment by theft. Do you think it is immoral to steal in order to advance the frontiers of human knowledge?

NEMO-Chemistry - 11-2-2018 at 18:48

are we being totally specific on theft? For example.

Nice Tech at school gave me things that were not going to be used anymore, is that defined as theft? Large bottle of DCM I am given 150ml to take away, is that theft?

If your working in black and white then no theft is isnt right, if your into grey areas then its down to conscience. If something is on its way to the skip then yes I think its a duty to recycle rather than dump. If you need a crow bar to get it then no you probably not take it.

Vosoryx - 11-2-2018 at 19:04

Yeah, definition of theft is the hold up here.

"I've been given lots of equipment from my school's lab by the teachers." That's pretty clearly honest.

"I've also taken a couple of things out of the trash." Grey area?

"I once took a pipette bulb cuz i needed it." That's almost certainly theft, but it feels OK - it's only one pipette bulb and I do a lot of work in the lab.

BTW all of those statements are true.

But: "I took the school's 1 liter anhydrous ethanol" would count as theft to me." (And I haven't done that)

Also important to keep in mind a certain bias by me being a teenager.

ficolas - 11-2-2018 at 19:17

I guess he means the "its been sitting here for ages, the sticker is begining to fall off and i'd have an use for it, they even have more" kind of theft.
I voted no, but i'll elaborate my answer. I admit having taken things I was not suposed to take. Never anything expensive, never anything dangerous, and never anything that was gonna be missed.

I'll give three examples, two of wich I admit are things I have done:

Case one: I once took a bunch of solder, because I needed for a project at home, I had ordered solder online, but It hadnt arrived, and I took some, more than I needed.
- How much was that worth? 50 cent? 30?
- If I had asked, they'd have said yes for sure, but since im a shy person, I didnt go through the process of finding someone with autority to allow me to take it.
- Technically, yes that would be theft, moral? I'd say yes, as I wasnt harming anyone, I was just not going through the hasle of having to ask someone.

Case two: aluminium powder. Once, from a reagent bottle we took some aluminium powder to make thermite, I was a a bit of a kewl back then, wanted to make some thermite, we took it, and we made the worst thermite I have seen in my whole life. This is the biggest thing I have ever "stolen"
- How much was what we took worth? 1€? probably less, 50cent? dont know, not much.
- Would they have given it to us if we asked? probably not, as we wanted it to make it thermite, the reason they wouldnt have given it was to protect us and to protect themselves, as they could get into trouble if we got harmed.
- Did we harm anyone, anything? No, and as I said, it was the lamest thermite ever.
- Again, yes, that would be theft, but moral? I wouldnt say it was immoral, we had no way of getting aluminium powder back then, it wasnt worth much, the sticker was falling off, maybe the purpose we wanted it for was something some people wouldnt really respect, but this is a whole different topic.

Case three this one is not something that I have ever done, but I wanted to give an example of what I wouldnt consider moral. A 64% nitric acid bottle on school.
-Price? Not cheap
-Would they have given it if I asked? Not at all.
-Could it harm something/dangerous? Well, I dont have to say it, but I put this here to show my point.
-Something they could miss, something they could get in trouble for loosing.
-I'd consider this one immoral. From the first and second to the third one, there is a big step, and there are lighter things that I would consider immoral, but I cant find of an example right now.

TL;DR i'd say it depends on several factors. Value, expendability, dangerousness, etc

Edit: I like the example Vosoryx gave as something ligher than my 3rd case, but still immoral, the alcohol one.

[Edited on 12-2-2018 by ficolas]

JJay - 11-2-2018 at 20:52

I think it is immoral, but my aim here is to find out what other people think, not to judge anyone for their opinions or tell anyone what is right and wrong.

Vomaturge - 11-2-2018 at 23:35

I would say straight-up theft is immoral, but there are grey areas. One time a worker from a broadband internet provider came to my residence to make some changes to the equipment for my internet connection. I offered to help him, and I handed him tools, etc. He moved an antenna, cut a bunch of cable and replaced it with a new, better protected (thicker plastic) one (he said the old one was junk). At one point, he asked me to set a big kinked up piece of excess data cable to the side. Assuming all the chopped cable was going to be thrown away, I coiled it up neatly so I could salvage it for myself. It was maybe 10-15 m, probably worth at very least a few € if new. Anyhow, he finished the job, and picked up all the stuff and took it back to the truck, overlooking that one piece of data cable. I kept it, of course. Was that immoral? Well, loosely based on what ficolas said...
I thought it would be thrown away, it might have been anyway. If that's the case, I'm glad I saved it.
What if the internet company was going to reuse it? Then setting it aside might be called theft, albeit a theft based on a misunderstanding.
There are plenty of dangerous or downright evil things you could do with 15 meters of data cable, but I wasn't doing any of them, and this object isn't inherently dangerous.
If I had asked, he probably would have given me it and all the other scraps of cable, if he was going to throw it out, but if he was saving it (the company does save routers and dishes, I know that), then he wouldn't give it. If you went into a company building and pinched a length of new cable, of course they'd stop you or call the police

I tend to think they didn't save cable, since they were upgrading to a new type, and it was in a random length. Just an example, not a chemistry one per say, but it illustrates how sometimes you don't know if they'd miss it. To be moral, I should've asked the workers permission, but I was soo sure he'd just toss it in my trash and I'd have to fish it out.

Edit:
For a more clear-cut and serious case of "It's just laying around, why not grab it" theft, a friend once told me about a guy who would take tools from his work. He'd only take one thing at a time, but he eventually amassed about 25000€ of tools over many years. The Perp. felt it was okay because he was keeping it all for his own personal use (ie, he didn't sell them) but this still is grossly immoral and damaging theft, without ever having to take something he was denied access to.

[Edited on 12-2-2018 by Vomaturge]

LearnedAmateur - 11-2-2018 at 23:47

I knew someone who used to take odd bits of small and old equipment in my chemistry class. Tubes, spatulas, thermometers, a flask here and there, sometimes would go through the (never accessed) drawers when the teacher left the room. Even saw them lift a very old (no ground joints!) Davies condenser, when the go-to is a Liebig. None of my peers seemed to care, and if the school had cottoned on then there was never an investigation or even any questions asked.

To be perfectly honest, I myself used to take a test/boiling tube occasionally for chemistry at home, just because there were at least 50 in the box when the sets were brought out, it just doesn’t seem worth buying them especially with no major income at the time. They were essentially disposable and commonly broken, I would hazard a guess and say there were at least a few hundred in the prep/tech room - the lower years did the real damage in dropping and cracking them all the time. Never any reagents or QuickFit stuff though which can be expensive, I bought all of the ones I own.

Whether it’s immoral or not, in the absence of authority opinion, I’d put that down to price and usage. Taking essentially worthless and plentiful items would be like stealing a few pieces of paper or pencils, whereas a bottle of something would much more likely be noticed and disrupt operations. There’s a scale to it that depends on its characteristics, like Ficolas said.

RawWork - 12-2-2018 at 04:01

Yes, because other person will always feel bad if they find out.
Once I entered biggest chemical selling company in Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina.
It was my first time there. The whole place was full of chemicals, even uranium and concentrated hydrogen peroxide and sulfuric acid. Even all glassware was at reach of my hand.
I knocked in one room's door and 2 people who were inside said they are busy and i should wait.
They were on phone call. I waited 10 minutes or more. During that time i observed all chemicals and noticed there are no cameras or any security. I had a bag ready to put things in. But I didn't need those chemicals at that time. So I didn't steal anything.

Police station was 2 metres accross exit of this building. The company is called Semikem, and now they moved to another larger building. Next time I got there and wanted to buy one test tube, they gave me two for free.

I felt so cool, and became even more interested in chemistry. I am mentioning place and location because i didn't steal. And it's now no longer location.

Magpie - 12-2-2018 at 05:15

People take office supplies all the time and justify this by feeling they are underpaid. My mother was an RN, head of surgery. I have several hemostats and a fine pair of ss scissors thanks to her. She was an ordinary person and would tell you that stealing is wrong. My wife worked in grade schools. I gave her a bad time for taking paper by the ream. I've taken small stuff and still feel it was wrong 20 years later. We are human and this is what most humans do. But, yes, it is immoral.

woelen - 12-2-2018 at 05:20

For me, the answer to this question is very simple: Yes

I see stealing something which isn't yours as a wrong thing. Doesn't matter how badly you want it, if it isn't yours, then it simply isn't yours and you have to accept that.

Sometimes, asking things can be very rewarding and when people give things you may gladly accept them. Also, if something really is thrown away or lost (and cannot be returned to its owner) then you can take it as well and then you can call yourself a lucky boy (or girl).

aga - 12-2-2018 at 05:41

The simple edict :-

"treat others like you want to be treated "

means no setting fire to people, no eating their pets, no stealing their stuff etc.

Theft is basically theft no matter how you look at it.

Any god-ist in the room should be shouting about the 8th commandmant.

Herr Haber - 12-2-2018 at 06:11

I have a very famous story that concludes with the theft of energetic materials not being immoral:

It's the story about one named Prometheus

That said, I havent stolen chems for... decades maybe ? (in my defense, leaving a mercury barometer in a hallway at school no one ever went to was criminal!)
Last time I asked for "100ml" of something I was given 1 liter! And a micro distillation kit in a suit case, and then some hardware that was going to the bin...
This is actually how I got back in the hobby.
I was never asked to... show gratitude in the expected way we had settled for at that time (involves tongues and toes if you must know). But since my friend and I talked a lot I also knew what small gifts might please her and her class. Last time I gave her something it was luminol. Fair trade !

Texium - 12-2-2018 at 06:38

As others have said, there is a gray area. I wouldn't say I have ever blatantly stolen anything from school or work, but whenever I have the opportunity to snag something that's going to be thrown out, I will always take it if it would be useful to me, even if I haven't gotten explicit permission. In high school, I got a nice glassware drying rack that was going to be thrown out when they were remodeling the chemistry classrooms. I also (with my teacher's permission) took many jars of expired chemicals that were going to be picked up by the Hazmat people. Honestly I was probably saving the school some money on that one. In the research lab I work in now, test tubes, vials, and pasteur pipettes are considered disposable, so when I'm finished with a vial I stick it in my backpack rather than in the broken glassware bin. I've amassed enough test tubes and pipettes at the present to where I no longer need to take any. I also take empty bottles and jars (now I can pretend my DCM came from Sigma and not KleanStrip). When they were remodeling all the labs in the building, I got the old lab sink faucet, a small cabinet, and a stool. I don't think any of this is immoral, in fact, in a sense it is moral/ethical to take things in this way, since I'm putting things to use that would otherwise end up in a landfill.

MrHomeScientist - 12-2-2018 at 06:45

Quote: Originally posted by ficolas

Case one:
...
If I had asked, they'd have said yes for sure, but since im a shy person, I didnt go through the process of finding someone with autority to allow me to take it.

But since I'm a shy person, I decided to be a criminal instead of just asking.

Quote: Originally posted by ficolas

- Technically, yes that would be theft, moral? I'd say yes, as I wasnt harming anyone, I was just not going through the hasle of having to ask someone.

The hassle of having a two sentence conversation with another person? The horror! Just go ahead and steal it.
You sure harmed the person that has to order the supplies. I order things for my work all the time and it's an absolute nightmare to go through all the approvals. I'd be pissed if someone took stuff I spent a lot of time buying. Did you at least replace what you took when the solder you ordered came in?

Quote: Originally posted by ficolas

Case two: aluminium powder.
...
- How much was what we took worth? 1€? probably less, 50cent? dont know, not much.
- Would they have given it to us if we asked? probably not, as we wanted it to make it thermite, the reason they wouldnt have given it was to protect us and to protect themselves, as they could get into trouble if we got harmed.
- Did we harm anyone, anything? No, and as I said, it was the lamest thermite ever.
- Again, yes, that would be theft, but moral? I wouldnt say it was immoral, we had no way of getting aluminium powder back then, it wasnt worth much, the sticker was falling off, maybe the purpose we wanted it for was something some people wouldnt really respect, but this is a whole different topic.

It doesn't matter how much it's worth; stealing is stealing. Especially if you're sure they wouldn't let you take it if you asked. How could you possibly think that was OK?
You may not have gotten hurt using it but you sure could have, and then what would have happened? You'd have gotten in trouble for stealing, the school would get in trouble for having their chemicals too accessible, and every student after you would have to suffer the increased security around chemicals that would have resulted. That sort of thing happens all the time; it's how chemophobia grows out of control.
And how the hell is "we had no way of getting [it] back then" justification AT ALL for taking things that aren't yours? I have no way of getting weapons-grade plutonium, so I guess it's fine for me to go steal some. The cops will understand!

Quote: Originally posted by ficolas

TL;DR i'd say it depends on several factors. Value, expendability, dangerousness, etc

TL;DR none of those factors makes any difference. Your judgment of "expendability" is a lot different than the owner's judgment, I'd wager.
You stole things. Stealing is bad. End of story.

ficolas - 12-2-2018 at 08:12

Quote:

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

But since I'm a shy person, I decided to be a criminal instead of just asking.

Yes, thats what I said, no need to make it look worse by changing the words.

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

No, the hasle of finding someone with power to give it to me. It was at university, a proffesor doesnt really have power to give it to me either, since its a public instotution. He could say I can take it, but because he understands how little it matters if I take it. I had permision to use it, there, not to take it home, but no one would mind.
I took like 50cm of solder from a 20m solder coil, I did not sneak into a place I wasnt suposed to be in and stole all the solder remaining.

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

Yes, you have a good point there, but no one would notice there were 100g missing from a half full 1kg bottle, so no way this would have impacted students or the school. And we werent stupid enough to be caught, we were a bit stupid, but not that much

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

TL;DR none of those factors makes any difference. Your judgment of "expendability" is a lot different than the owner's judgment, I'd wager.
You stole things. Stealing is bad. End of story.

Sure, none of those factors make a difference, I should have stolen a car, im as much of a criminal as for taking 50cm of solder anyways.
The "owner" isnt a person, its an entity. I would never take anything that would have a big negative effect on anyone. The solder would have been used up 3 days later if I didnt take it, and the aluminium, as I said, wasnt used because the school only did the same 3 experiments every year, and I just took a part of it.

[Edited on 12-2-2018 by ficolas]

[Edited on 12-2-2018 by ficolas]

OldNubbins - 12-2-2018 at 09:08

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

TL;DR none of those factors makes any difference. Your judgment of "expendability" is a lot different than the owner's judgment, I'd wager.
You stole things. Stealing is bad. End of story.

Whoa Nelly! Can you point to the place on this doll where the bad thief touched you?

JJay started this thread for opinions, not judgement. Lets see if we can discourage other members from contributing...

vmelkon - 12-2-2018 at 09:40

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

People take office supplies all the time and justify this by feeling they are underpaid. My mother was an RN, head of surgery. I have several hemostats and a fine pair of ss scissors thanks to her. She was an ordinary person and would tell you that stealing is wrong. My wife worked in grade schools. I gave her a bad time for taking paper by the ream. I've taken small stuff and still feel it was wrong 20 years later. We are human and this is what most humans do. But, yes, it is immoral.

There was research done on this.
Most murders are committed in the name of morality. The person doing the murder does it because he feels he was mistreated in some way and he wants justice.

The same happens sometimes when people steel. They reason that society is cheating them or they are underpaid.

In my case, I stole a few test tubes from school. I stole maybe 1 or 2 g of K2Cr2O7. 1 Mercury thermometer.
This was back when the internet did not exist, in 1996. I called 1 place and they said, sorry, we don't sell to individuals. I think it is after 2000 that eBay and such became popular and glassware and chemical sellers popped up like mushrooms.

[Edited on 12-2-2018 by vmelkon]

RawWork - 12-2-2018 at 09:47

Quote: Originally posted by OldNubbins

JJay started this thread for opinions, not judgement. Lets see if we can discourage other members from contributing...

Exactly, let's refrain from absolutism and conclusions. Nobody can say absolutely that stealing is bad, no matter how hard they try. If I knew that governement would use something against me I would steal it from them.

Sometimes government or organization may do something harmful for environment, and in such cases stealing may be the only way to prevent it.

I was in city called Pale (nothing to do with word "pale") and there was unbearable smell from one production plant coming off at night. It was so unbearable that I would do anything to immediately steal that plant's devices which allow them to make such smell. It was like a mix of burning cheese, alcohol, acetone and vinegar. Luckily I don't live there and was just passing by. They were doing something with wood, probably dry distillation, but all gases were condensing on us - people. No regulations, protection, law, anything.

There was a debate in Bosnia and Herzegovina about neighboor country radioactive waste disposal on border between these two countries.

When law fails to solve things, survival and force measures have to be used. Closest to stealing would be outcry which happened in this country in 2014 due to similar reasons. Many governement buildings and people were damaged and gave huge loss to country. Another debate is about building power plant on river which can have environmental impact (damage).

Is stealing better than outcry? Yes, I would go for it. Damage can be prevented, reduced, replaced with something better (less worse) such as stealing. Similar to stealing a weapon from enemy so he can't do any damage or so bad damage with it.

So, opinions are welcome, conclusions aren't.
Reccommendations are neither maybe. Take this as my opinion.

[Edited on 12-2-2018 by RawWork]

roXefeller - 12-2-2018 at 10:00

Stealing is stealing. It stains you if you take something you didn't earn, even if you think it hurts nobody else. You make the call how you reconcile that stain. Unfortunately the way society has put these sciences on the shelf away from the pupil's hands causes this question to be debated. When I can't buy NaCl from Sigma-Aldrich, something is broken. This litigious concern has caused many to either steal, or do without. Yes I stole as a teenager from the unlocked high school storage lab. I knew it was stealing, but the instructors tell us about these reactions without letting us learn them in a practical way. And yes, when my parents found my supply of chemicals there was hell to pay. I wish they would have found an honest way to let me pursue it, but it wasn't to be. I ended up attending university as a mechanical engineer instead of chemical likely because of that... the high school chemistry lessons were tame and the other sciences seemed more interesting by comparison. And it wasn't until 20 years later that I re-entered that intriguing world.

Whether you think burying your talents is worse than stealing from others, that's between you and your creator. A thieving youth will be given far more leeway to his objective than an adult. I find my supplies easier to buy the legal way, but I'm older than 18, am legally liable for my actions, and possess licenses which make things easier to procure. Do schools know that students steal? yes definitely. Will school purchasers buy enough to offset theft? Yes. Does it impact their budget? Definitely, remember it's small to begin with. Will they give it to you if you ask. Not likely, because we're litigious, but they might leave the light on.

As far as comparing things to the paper clip and stationary, consider that the purchasers of these common items have intentions for the purchases. Waste and misuse of this budget is bad, however some companies have tacit acceptance of acceptable personal use at minimal cost to the company. Most thieves don't know what the policy is, or don't care. Personally, I was forced to abandon expensive graphing paper that I owned because my company thought it resembled their own purchase. They are sticklers for white collar crime of stealing such supplies. I couldn't prove my claim so I let it go and learned not to mingle mine with theirs.

MrHomeScientist - 12-2-2018 at 11:40

I apologize if I offended anyone with my post; apparently this is something I feel strongly about. roXefeller echoes much of my same thoughts but with a more level head.

NEMO-Chemistry - 12-2-2018 at 12:48

Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller

Stealing is stealing. It stains you if you take something you didn't earn, even if you think it hurts nobody else. You make the call how you reconcile that stain. Unfortunately the way society has put these sciences on the shelf away from the pupil's hands causes this question to be debated. When I can't buy NaCl from Sigma-Aldrich, something is broken. This litigious concern has caused many to either steal, or do without. Yes I stole as a teenager from the unlocked high school storage lab. I knew it was stealing, but the instructors tell us about these reactions without letting us learn them in a practical way. And yes, when my parents found my supply of chemicals there was hell to pay. I wish they would have found an honest way to let me pursue it, but it wasn't to be. I ended up attending university as a mechanical engineer instead of chemical likely because of that... the high school chemistry lessons were tame and the other sciences seemed more interesting by comparison. And it wasn't until 20 years later that I re-entered that intriguing world.

Whether you think burying your talents is worse than stealing from others, that's between you and your creator. A thieving youth will be given far more leeway to his objective than an adult. I find my supplies easier to buy the legal way, but I'm older than 18, am legally liable for my actions, and possess licenses which make things easier to procure. Do schools know that students steal? yes definitely. Will school purchasers buy enough to offset theft? Yes. Does it impact their budget? Definitely, remember it's small to begin with. Will they give it to you if you ask. Not likely, because we're litigious, but they might leave the light on.

As far as comparing things to the paper clip and stationary, consider that the purchasers of these common items have intentions for the purchases. Waste and misuse of this budget is bad, however some companies have tacit acceptance of acceptable personal use at minimal cost to the company. Most thieves don't know what the policy is, or don't care. Personally, I was forced to abandon expensive graphing paper that I owned because my company thought it resembled their own purchase. They are sticklers for white collar crime of stealing such supplies. I couldn't prove my claim so I let it go and learned not to mingle mine with theirs.

Fuck that, I would tell them to do an audit and see for themselves its mine, but who takes paper into work??

Actually I have taken paper out the photocopier at school loads of times, mainly to scrawl notes to leave on teachers desks. By rights they charge 10p a photocopy, no idea how much of that is for the paper, but I am not paying to leave a note for teacher who isnt where they should be.

Infact in that case they are stealing from me, i now pay tax. My tax pays there wage, if they not where they are supposed to be, at the time they are supposed to be there, are they not getting paid for something they are not doing?

I am with ZTS on this, common sense tells you if its stealing, recycling is just sense. In the Uk say I lived next door to you (god help you), my tree grows over your side the fence, you can cut it but your stealing if you dont give me the wood.

in the real world however, you go see the guy next door, you say your tree needs cutting my side. I would go round and expect you to help if needed, but sure keep the wood or go halves.

I think if you do something wrong or immoral you fell bad, the moral compass thing. So as long as my compass is roughly point to the M, then I am ok with it.

As for the doll, why? If you really want to know where it was just ask and I will tell you, if your shy I will write it down for you

JJay - 12-2-2018 at 14:10

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

I apologize if I offended anyone with my post; apparently this is something I feel strongly about. roXefeller echoes much of my same thoughts but with a more level head.

I too feel strongly about it, but who can dictate morality? I was a bit surprised at the diversity of views on this question.

aga - 12-2-2018 at 15:22

Quote: Originally posted by vmelkon

There was research done on this.

Please state where we can all see that research.

Edit:

Things like "i forgot" do not work, at all, ever.

[Edited on 12-2-2018 by aga]

wg48 - 12-2-2018 at 15:51

Questions about morality are open questions. They have no definitive answer and frequently stir up emotions with resulting bad behaviour.

Magpie - 12-2-2018 at 16:59

Quote: Originally posted by wg48

Questions about morality are open questions. They have no definitive answer and frequently stir up emotions with resulting bad behaviour.

This is a subject I have strong feelings on but will not express them. I just dig myself a hole and then get pushed into it and covered with dirt. Political correctness is very hard on me. I like to call them as I see them.

wg48 - 12-2-2018 at 17:37

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

Quote: Originally posted by wg48

Questions about morality are open questions. They have no definitive answer and frequently stir up emotions with resulting bad behaviour.

Check out my most favourite power tool clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0fkNdPiIL4

SWIM - 12-2-2018 at 17:58

I see MrHomeScientist had to apologize for his assertion that stealing was bad.

This makes me realize that saying whether or not you think stealing chemicals or equipment is immoral on this thread ( which actually does ask, "Do you think it is immoral to steal chemicals and equipment?") might be considered socially unacceptable.

Is it also socially unacceptable to point out the social unacceptability of demanding assent or silence from people who disagree with you by demanding they adhere to your standards of social acceptability which render their opinions on social acceptability unacceptable?

Seriously, where's Franz Kafka when you really need him?

Magpie - 12-2-2018 at 18:21

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM

I see MrHomeScientist had to apologize for his assertion that stealing was bad.

This makes me realize that saying whether or not you think stealing chemicals or equipment is immoral on this thread ( which actually does ask, "Do you think it is immoral to steal chemicals and equipment?") might be considered socially unacceptable.

Is it also socially unacceptable to point out the social unacceptability of demanding assent or silence from people who disagree with you by demanding they adhere to your standards of social acceptability which render their opinions on social acceptability unacceptable?

Seriously, where's Franz Kafka when you really need him?

I understand most universities are now saturated with"political correctness police." I will get a feel for this next fall when I plan on taking Philosophy 101. I intend to get into several hot debates and will express my honest opinion even if they kick me out of class. I have already been kicked off my wife's Facebook account for mentioning the word auto-eroticism. My sister-in-law was responsible for this. Today I told a woman in a chemistry lab she looked good in a white coat. She gave me a cold stare. This is a woman who dresses very smartly, obviously wanting to look good. Obama said Michelle's new portrait "showed off her hotness." Michelle probably liked this but did the "me too" police?

Where's Nietzche when you need him?

[Edited on 13-2-2018 by Magpie]

SWIM - 12-2-2018 at 18:49

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

I have already been kicked off my wife's Facebook account for mentioning the word auto-eroticism.

[Edited on 13-2-2018 by Magpie]

This is the ultimate absurdity.

The internet wouldn't be what it is today were it not for auto-eroticism!!!

@happyfooddance
Yes, home chemistry too.
Not quite as popular, but equally capable of ruining your keyboard if you're not careful.

[Edited on 13-2-2018 by SWIM]

Magpie - 12-2-2018 at 19:21

This all started when my wife and I visited my son in Brooklyn, NYC. On the way to an art gallery show in Manhattan where my son exhibited 3 of his paintings we saw 1) an attempted suicide on the Brooklyn Bridge, 2) my wife stepped on a rat coming out of the art gallery in the evening darkness, and 3) we saw a homeless man lying on the street indulging in auto-eroticism.

My sister-in-law is a retired principal of an "alternative" high school in Idaho for those who can't adjust to a regular high school. So she said that I had probably not had the "worldly experience with auto-eroticism that she has had." I'm not sure what she meant by this but I thought it laughable. Another sister-in-law had to look up the word. My son in Brooklyn thought it was funny.

happyfooddance - 12-2-2018 at 21:14

And home chemistry

OldNubbins - 12-2-2018 at 23:53

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM

I can only assume my comment may have had something to do with this. However, I never stated my opinion on the matter. I was commenting on the manner in which he responded to another's anecdote. I agree, stealing is immoral. If everyone felt 'ahh, it's nothin' no one will miss this' the world would be quite a bit more miserable than it already is. At the same time, taking a length of solder is about as serious as taking an extra 10 or 15 minutes on the shitter while you are at work. Depending on one's hourly wage, being constipated might be even more detrimental to the company, or ruin the day for the guy responsible for keeping the toilet paper stocked...

roXefeller - 13-2-2018 at 08:24

I wouldn't compare the solder to workplace time-fraud. He was a paying student at university, likely paying extra lab fees. Unless the lab instructor doled out the wire like it was precious platinum, he's already payed for what he was using. If he feels like he used more than his allotment, perhaps he can opt to donate as an alumnus to ease the burden of the next generation in their unfunded passion.

DavidJR - 13-2-2018 at 12:14

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

But since I'm a shy person, I decided to be a criminal instead of just asking.
...
The hassle of having a two sentence conversation with another person? The horror! Just go ahead and steal it.

Now, I don't approve of theft, but as someone with social anxiety disorder you would be amazed at the lengths I have gone to to avoid having a two sentence conversation with someone before...

OldNubbins - 13-2-2018 at 13:24

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR

... you would be amazed at the lengths I have gone to to avoid having a two sentence conversation with someone before...

And I thought it was just the Brits with that problem

Fulmen - 13-2-2018 at 13:33

Is it wrong to steal? Not if I really want something :-D

RawWork - 13-2-2018 at 14:47

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM

The internet wouldn't be what it is today were it not for auto-eroticism!!!

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

But since I'm a shy person, I decided to be a criminal instead of just asking.
...
The hassle of having a two sentence conversation with another person? The horror! Just go ahead and steal it.

Now, I don't approve of theft, but as someone with social anxiety disorder you would be amazed at the lengths I have gone to to avoid having a two sentence conversation with someone before...

Quote: Originally posted by OldNubbins

And I thought it was just the Brits with that problem

They say they've found a cause and solution, but have difficulty finding test subjects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NoFap
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wSF82AwSDiU

[Edited on 13-2-2018 by RawWork]

DavidJR - 13-2-2018 at 15:47

Nope, the fix is chemical: sertraline.

RawWork - 13-2-2018 at 15:56

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR

Nope, the fix is chemical: sertraline.

I tried zyprexa, apaurin, sanval, and rissar, none helped. Maybe zyprexa did somewhat calm me and made me non responsive to people weird looks, but it had extreme side-effect, made me sleepy whole day. Could not walk. Luckily had positive side-effect, a feeling of being in heaven where everything looks like a dream or movie, and to be honest it was enjoyable. Had a feeling of love and few undescribable others.

I know, you're trying to say that fix for burning fire is fire extinguisher, but in the long term, it's not making any fire accidents. Every chemical disbalance has a cause, and closest to that could be what we ingest and inhale, like junk food. Just scientific opinion.

[Edited on 13-2-2018 by RawWork]

DavidJR - 13-2-2018 at 16:04

Well, I can't argue with that, but sertraline works pretty well for me. Admittedly the side effects during the first month were horrendous.

Melgar - 13-2-2018 at 17:58

In high school once, there was potassium nitrate solution left over from lab. I knew it was going to get thrown out anyway, so I put it in a plastic bottle I had and replaced the fluid in the disposal container with tap water. This was recent enough that, had I asked, liability would have been the #1 concern.

I'm not actually sure if this is stealing. Technically it is, but by taking something without asking that would have been thrown out, all I effectively did was absolve the school of any liability that might come from me using it to make homemade solid-fuel rockets.

ninhydric1 - 13-2-2018 at 18:51

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar

In high school once, there was potassium nitrate solution left over from lab. I knew it was going to get thrown out anyway, so I put it in a plastic bottle I had and replaced the fluid in the disposal container with tap water. This was recent enough that, had I asked, liability would have been the #1 concern.

I'm not actually sure if this is stealing. Technically it is, but by taking something without asking that would have been thrown out, all I effectively did was absolve the school of any liability that might come from me using it to make homemade solid-fuel rockets.

One man's trash is another man's treasure, am I right?

JJay - 14-2-2018 at 16:26

I've been racking my brain to think of times when I ever might have stolen something, and the only things I have ever "stolen" in the name of chemistry were library books, and I eventually returned them. (I haven't had an overdue library book in decades.) The only times I can think of when I might have swiped, pilfered, misappropriated, burgled, lifted, absconded, or robbed for any other reason were for good-natured pranks, and I have played a few of those... but I always returned anything I might have poached after the joke had run its course. *shrug*

Magpie - 14-2-2018 at 16:51

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

... for good-natured pranks, and I have played a few of those...

I'm a prankster by nature. I had to sublime this tendency during my days of college and the responsibility of making a living. Those responsibilities are over now, mostly. Time for some good-natured pranks, I think.

I am a big fan of Norse mythology. So, this morning before anyone else entered the classroom in organic chemistry I placed the following in the upper-left corner of the whiteboard:

"Look up the following for class tomorrow:

Norns (3)
Erda
Siegfriëd
Brünhilde
die Valkyrie
Götterdamerung
Lotüng
Siglinde
Sigmünde
Logë
Wotan
Fricka
Rhinemaidens"

I put a note by this that said "SAVE."

Several of the students came in wondering what this was all about

I'm wondering how long it will be saved. The instructor didn't even see it and it wasn't in her way when she worked several long-winded problems.
Is this a good harmless prank? Will any students do the research?

[Edited on 15-2-2018 by Magpie]

[Edited on 15-2-2018 by Magpie]

RawWork - 14-2-2018 at 17:04

Aw, that's harmless, few of them may as people are curious by nature. Correct, only successful people can make pranks. I like watching richkidstv, trollstation, askagangsta, edbassmaster, gilstraptv (this guy farts and IS funny) and many more on yt. Pranks are popular on youtube. You can make yt channel too. But be more extreme! Twinztv were so extreme that they recorded defecation in public while driving supercar

Off topic.. :mad:

[Edited on 15-2-2018 by RawWork]

WangleSpong5000 - 16-2-2018 at 18:32

The question you should be asking yourself is: "Why the fuck do these gits get to own all the chemicals anyway?" then you start a revolution and seize the means of (chemical) production and just as you think you and all your comrades gets to share the chemicals a bunch of men with guns come and throw you in gulag... where you get to go dig in a mine... for chemicals lol

NEMO-Chemistry - 16-2-2018 at 20:32

Alot of times its context as well, like stuff thats being thrown out. Similar to sexual harassment, if I pat a women on the arse I am burnt at the stake (or at least twittered about). However if the same women is on fire in the arse area I can happily pat away all I like!

Next time I see a womens arse on fire, fuck it she can burn, not getting on any me too list! I guess we need to get creative with what we say from now on, hey lady, those plastic milk producers look great! mind if I feel the tensile strength of the silicone?

ok i will go stand in the corner!

Hacktacular - 22-2-2018 at 21:23

Isn't morality really just a general consensus of the public? In that case from what I've read it looks like it's all about context...

Personally though I agree, if it's something that's headed to the bin why not salvage it? It's your civic duty to recycle! On top of that you could always argue (especially at uni) that you've effectively paid a replacement fee for glassware in your course fees, but that could lead to some morally ambiguous behaviour. Is 're-homing' the occasional test tube theft? Well, yeah by definition but it's not something huge and you could've just as easily dropped it (breakage-fee covered). Is 're-homing' an entire distillation apparatus complete with heating mantle theft? I reckon you'd be hard-pressed to defend that one even to the most resourceful home chemist.

VSEPR_VOID - 22-2-2018 at 22:12

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

Occasionally, when reading some guide or other, or when discussing sundry chemistry topics with the denizens of these interwebs, someone suggests obtaining chemicals or equipment by theft. Do you think it is immoral to steal in order to advance the frontiers of human knowledge?

The ends do not justify the means, especially when we are talking about a hobby. A person's property is as sacred as their body. That being said most people obey the not because they are good but because they are cowards.

clearly_not_atara - 22-2-2018 at 22:25

Yes, unless it's being discarded, in which case it can be legally theft but I don't think it really counts.

Sulaiman - 22-2-2018 at 23:35

I could not answer the survey as the question revolves around interpretation and context of the word moral.
For me there is right and wrong and don't know yet,
Stealling (taking without permission of the owner) is wrong - no ambiguity.
but
if a wrong act was performed with the intention of doing a greater good then the balance is good.
It is best for you to seek forgiveness for any 'bad' deeds, religiously/morally/psychologically, any way you look at it.
I do not consider personal/hobby/research chemistry justifies theft.

That is my ideal self, I took chemicals from school, tried shoplifting, 'borrowed' stuff from work etc. and I saw no harm in it.
Now that I'm an adult in control of myself I do not steal
- it is very easy to get permission for reasonable requests.