Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Looming DCM Ban (US)

UC235 - 11-5-2018 at 14:37

https://cen.acs.org/policy/chemical-regulation/EPA-ban-methy...

Go buy your paint stripper while you still can, folks.

Velzee - 11-5-2018 at 15:04

Oh no!

j_sum1 - 11-5-2018 at 15:08

The irony is that amateur chemists are likely to substitute with chloroform in many instances.

Vosoryx - 11-5-2018 at 15:09

I wish you all the best down in the states. Fortunately it's still available here... but environment Canada will likely pick up on it soon enough.
At the very least, you probably still have a few years before the ban actually comes into affect.

Texium - 11-5-2018 at 15:57

Alright, time to go grab a few gallons. I'm surprised the EPA under Pruitt is actually doing anything remotely related to the environment... of course they have to make it something annoying that accomplishes nothing useful.

S.C. Wack - 11-5-2018 at 16:06

I have used the no-DCM strippers and they are useless. Who will sell DCM to individuals at a residential address after? All because somehow bathtubs and DCM got together 300 million people can no longer have paint stripper? (I assume the internet had something to do with the deaths)

walruslover69 - 11-5-2018 at 17:07

I love how there is actually an organization called The Halogenated Solvents Industry Alliance (HSIA), which represents solvent manufacturers.

AvBaeyer - 11-5-2018 at 18:44

If you read carefully, this is a ban on methylene chloride in paint strippers. I see nothing about banning bulk methylene chloride. However, if you want to rush out and buy some I recommend Sierra Chemicals on ebay. I order solvents from them frequently without problems. And I live in California.

AvB

Leafs - 11-5-2018 at 21:06

Wonder how many people are killed by electrocution... maybe it's time to ban electricity.

Instead of putting a big warning label on it, let's just ban it outright. Gotta love nanny big government.

If it happens under Trump it's just another example that he was full of it when he used to talk about all the regulations at his rallies.

[Edited on 12-5-2018 by Leafs]

100PercentChemistry - 12-5-2018 at 03:11

1,2 Dichloromethane also called Dichloromethane now should work as a good substitute to DCM. I’m not sure about this it I think it is found in “Watco Danish oil”. Here it is sold at many hardware stores. MSDS just says “Mineral Spirits >60%”

[Edited on 5-12-2018 by 100PercentChemistry]

unionised - 12-5-2018 at 03:23

Quote: Originally posted by 100PercentChemistry  
1,2 Dichloromethane also called Dichloromethane now should work as a good substitute to DCM. I’m not sure about this it I think it is found in “Watco Danish oil”. Hey is sold st many hardware stores. MSDS just says “Mineral Spirits >60%”

I suspect that auto-correct has mangled dichloroEthane.
I also suspect that it's not real "dutch oil" and contains no dichloroethane.

[Edited on 12-5-18 by unionised]

100PercentChemistry - 12-5-2018 at 03:27

You are correct, Autocorrect.

I also found DCE is in the refrigerant R-150, but I can’t find any where that sells I online.

DavidJR - 12-5-2018 at 06:07

So same situation as in the EU then. I was able to buy DCM from a chemical supplier though.

XeonTheMGPony - 12-5-2018 at 06:23

Welcome to Canada where if it is dangerous the dumbest of us it is for all of us!

Dear Americans, curbstomp any idiot that tries to ban some thing because some one won a Darwin award!

Let nature do its job and fight tooth and nail to retain your right to use what works responsibly!

I just get so sick of all the dimwitted crap they make us go though and most of it is driven by insurance companies as far as OH&S go, if some of those idiot regulators had to work under their own paper pusher policies they'd disappear right quick!

This is what you get when you have idiots who never held a tool in their life make policies for those that live by their tools!

[/pissed off lack of caffeine induced rant]

VSEPR_VOID - 12-5-2018 at 06:44

The nanny-state at work

j_sum1 - 12-5-2018 at 15:35

I can see a case against DCM on environmental grounds. But that is not what is being proposed here.

If this ban becomes widespread then it will be annoying. And probably counterproductive as people seek alternatives that may in fact be more hazardous.

zed - 12-5-2018 at 16:43

So, why another law?

DCM is pretty bad stuff. But, as a society, we use very little of it.

MOST of us have the sense to realize it is pretty bad stuff. We exercise caution.

Grrrrr.

DavidJR - 12-5-2018 at 18:17

I don't mind it being banned for use in paint strippers - there are less hazardous alternatives for that use, and so the ban will protect the average DIY-er citizen. A paint stripper is designed to be spread over a large surface area, so it's going to produce a lot of fumes in normal use. Other consumer products containing dichloromethane, such as solvent welding "glues", are less hazardous simply because of the way they are intended to be used (smaller quantity, smaller surface area, so much less vapour).

It should still be possible to buy dichloromethane from chemical suppliers anyway.

alking - 13-5-2018 at 08:24

Quote: Originally posted by AvBaeyer  
If you read carefully, this is a ban on methylene chloride in paint strippers. I see nothing about banning bulk methylene chloride. However, if you want to rush out and buy some I recommend Sierra Chemicals on ebay. I order solvents from them frequently without problems. And I live in California.

AvB


This. I don't see this as a big deal, it's only a ban on putting it in paint stripper which probably isn't a good idea anyway if there are safer alternatives. You can easily purchase it by the gallon online, I can't see that changing.

Texium - 13-5-2018 at 12:10

It's quite a bit more expensive to buy it online though. Paint stripper is very cheap, requires only minor processing to purify, and you can get some methanol out of it as a bonus.

byko3y - 13-5-2018 at 16:49

I was wondering, is there any serious health risk associated with DCM? I'm not talking about inhaling high concentration vapors and handling the solvent with bare hands (pretty much any solvent would be harmfull in those conditions), I'm talking about reazonable exposure to DCM, like its vapors in a ventilated room or few drops falling on skin.
For me 5% higher chance of getting cancer is not a significant health risk.

alking - 14-5-2018 at 09:56

Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
It's quite a bit more expensive to buy it online though. Paint stripper is very cheap, requires only minor processing to purify, and you can get some methanol out of it as a bonus.


I see a gallon listed on Amazon right now for <70$. How much does it cost at the hw store? At my HW stores all I can find is the kind that is a gel which is only ~30-40% DCM, it's a huge pain to clean that gel up, and iirc it's about 17$/gallon which is effectively the same price, plus you do not have to do any work to extract it. If it was 50%+ pure and didn't have that gel then I'd probably just do that, but that gel is a huge pain, you basically have to replace the DCM you recovered with acetone in order to get your flask back.

DavidJR - 14-5-2018 at 10:30

Quote: Originally posted by byko3y  
I was wondering, is there any serious health risk associated with DCM? I'm not talking about inhaling high concentration vapors and handling the solvent with bare hands (pretty much any solvent would be harmfull in those conditions), I'm talking about reazonable exposure to DCM, like its vapors in a ventilated room or few drops falling on skin.
For me 5% higher chance of getting cancer is not a significant health risk.


It readily permeates the skin and can cause burns on its own. If I get a drop on my hand I know about it because it tingles. Also, there aren't really gloves with good resistance to DCM - it passes through most very rapidly, with the exception of polyvinyl alcohol gloves (which btw are water soluble), and 99.99% of people using paint stripper are not going to have them.

One of the products of metabolism of DCM is carbon monoxide.One of the products of metabolism of DCM is carbon monoxide. Inhalation, ingestion, and absorption through the skin can all cause acute systemic toxicity - and rapid death. There have been many reported deaths due to inhalation of DCM vapours from paint strippers. There's even been deaths reported among trained workers using DCM paint stripper with PVA gloves and a respirator.

Yes, it's carcinogenic too, but that's the least of your worries.

Sure, the alternatives might not take paint off quite as quickly, but frankly I'd rather be alive than have the convenience of making paint slop off things quickly.

This legislation will save lives. Stop being so selfish about possibly having to pay a little more to buy pure DCM from a chemical supplier.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201...

The Volatile Chemist - 14-5-2018 at 15:25

I'm fairly sure it won't save lives.
There are definitely more pressing things for people to be pursuing with their lives than banning DCM. I read it was consumer products not paint strippers - if it's paint strippers that's crap because even when I did flooring install we used DCM paint stripper to remove glue.

Melgar - 15-5-2018 at 06:08

I'd imagine that the fact that DCM isn't flammable has probably saved a fair number of lives as well. That's how I always find DCM paint strippers: I look for the one without any "DANGER! FLAMMABLE!" warning on it. (It does say "DANGER! TOXIC!", but all the others do too.)

violet sin - 16-5-2018 at 12:07

Suggested brands?

I was wondering if anyone in the US, west coast Ca if it matters, has a favorite stripper (lol) for distilling. I know I could pour over a bunch of MSDS sheets and do the work my self looking for higher DMC content. that alone won't help me weed out those that are problematic for other reasons like foaming up, unreasonable tar, hard to separate co-solvents.

If it's too much like spoon feeding, I get it. Just trying to avoid the hassle of buying the wrong ones. Don't need much, don't have a specific use either, so it's not a pressing mater at all. But I could always buy a can from time to time n just leaving it on the shelf till one day when necessity calls and time is free.. distillation will happen.

So if you have a favorite and don't mind sharing, then cool beans, I'm all ears. Likewise if your afraid of sharing your source for fear it will be yanked, I get it. Thanks

UC235 - 16-5-2018 at 14:27

I'm not sure how it stands up to other brands, but I've always used Kleanstrip Premium. It's like $20-$25/gallon and I usually recover about 1.6L of DCM. It's been a while, so that yield might be off. I originally thought the sprayable version had less DCM, but the SDS doesn't show that currently.

As for dealing with the glop in the stuff, I soldered a piece of copper pipe into a cap for one of their cans and just distill directly out of the gallon using a hot water bath and a Friedrich condenser. I might have poured some out at the start to give the can headspace and then added it back in later.

[Edited on 16-5-2018 by UC235]

AvBaeyer - 16-5-2018 at 19:05

I simply cannot understand why anyone would go to the trouble of distilling paint remover to get methylene chloride. It really seems like non-cost and non-time effective self flaggelation. Perhaps there is some deep need to beat the system.

For $70 you can get a gallon of the stuff delivered to your door. The quality of this material is excellent. And it looks like it is very cost competitive with paint stripper material.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dichloromethane-1-Gallon-Methylene-...

AvB

PirateDocBrown - 16-5-2018 at 19:13

I never had a problem with the thixotrope ("glop"). It seems to sinter together in a kind of pancake at distillation temp, and can be pulled out during cleanup with a brush in one big pull. Some residual DCM fumes at the sink, but aside from that, soap and hot water gets the flask clean.

That said, on this news I went and laid in a gallon of sprayable Kleanstrip, to supplement the half gallon or so of semi paste I still have.

Texium - 16-5-2018 at 20:33

Quote: Originally posted by AvBaeyer  
I simply cannot understand why anyone would go to the trouble of distilling paint remover to get methylene chloride. It really seems like non-cost and non-time effective self flaggelation. Perhaps there is some deep need to beat the system.

For $70 you can get a gallon of the stuff delivered to your door. The quality of this material is excellent. And it looks like it is very cost competitive with paint stripper material.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dichloromethane-1-Gallon-Methylene-...

AvB
The price is certainly not competitive. A gallon of KleanStrip Premium, as mentioned by UC235, is $23 at Home Depot. I can then take that, quickly distill the entire thing very quickly in two batches using my rotovap, wash with water to remove methanol, dry it over CaCl2 and do a final distillation with the rotovap. It sounds like a long process but it's really not much work, and it's something that can be done in the background while I'm working on other things. There's no "deep need to beat the system," at least not for me.

Edit: and actually, I use the sprayable stuff: it has less glop but not any less DCM. In fact the yield might actually be better since there is less goop for it to become entrained in.

[Edited on 5-17-2018 by Texium (zts16)]

Melgar - 16-5-2018 at 20:43

For $70 you can get like three liters of DCM from distilling a gallon of paint stripper and also have a gallon of nitromethane delivered directly to your door!

There's always more reagents to buy, so if I can save $30-$40 on a reagent, I can use that to buy more reagents!

RogueRose - 17-5-2018 at 04:07

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
For $70 you can get like three liters of DCM from distilling a gallon of paint stripper and also have a gallon of nitromethane delivered directly to your door!

There's always more reagents to buy, so if I can save $30-$40 on a reagent, I can use that to buy more reagents!

?? care to explain how? what brands, where?

violet sin - 17-5-2018 at 16:55

My msds or sds search last night showed kleenstrip premium stripper 60-100% DCM /gal. Others were same or less in the common diy brands. It's like 25$ + tax /gal at the local hardware store. Minimum retrieved would be 2.27 litres assuming 100% effective separation.

ACE hardware people get mailed coupons for discounts if you spend over 25$ a couple times a year. It could be cheaper if you try harder.

25$ I can budget easily, 70$ requires I... 1) have not bought anything else for myself recently, or 2) have a money generating need for it, or 3) I don't mind debating the misses for the rights to spend our money on my hobby.

RogueRose: I assume the paint stripper part was obvious, not sure on the nitromethane.

zed - 17-5-2018 at 17:03

Well, sin

There is a major supplier in Sacramento.

Wants 70 bucks per gallon, on-line.

Perhaps the out the door price, minus shipping, is a lot better.

Plan on being in Sacramento anytime soon?

RogueRose - 17-5-2018 at 20:04

Quote: Originally posted by violet sin  
My msds or sds search last night showed kleenstrip premium stripper 60-100% DCM /gal. Others were same or less in the common diy brands. It's like 25$ + tax /gal at the local hardware store. Minimum retrieved would be 2.27 litres assuming 100% effective separation.

ACE hardware people get mailed coupons for discounts if you spend over 25$ a couple times a year. It could be cheaper if you try harder.

25$ I can budget easily, 70$ requires I... 1) have not bought anything else for myself recently, or 2) have a money generating need for it, or 3) I don't mind debating the misses for the rights to spend our money on my hobby.

RogueRose: I assume the paint stripper part was obvious, not sure on the nitromethane.


Yeah, well the last part is kind of big, and if you can get nitromethane out of the same gallon, I'm kind of interested. Maybe by adding another reagent?

Melgar - 17-5-2018 at 21:12

Ah, sorry for any misunderstanding. My point was that if I spent $70 (well, maybe $75-$80, realistically), I could both buy a gallon of paint stripper and distill the DCM out of it, and also mail-order a gallon of nitromethane for about $50. You can't actually distill nitromethane from paint stripper.

violet sin - 17-5-2018 at 22:48

RogueRose: Yeah, well the last part is kind of big, and if you can get nitromethane out of the same gallon, I'm kind of interested.
-------------
I just figured the statement implied two separate transactions, one of which we were talking about and one thrown on top unrelated to prove the value of money saved by distilling the DCM yourself. But I looked at a lot of stripper SDS sheets yesterday with out seeing NM mentioned anywhere, which probably gave rise to the easy distinction of sources. No rudeness implied, I half expected to see it listed somewhere on an eBay site. No sir, I have no idea the source sorry. That's a chem I don't think I'd much relish distilling though, purpose bought if that.

Zed: I will have to check that place out some time. Sac's about an hour and half from home. Easily worth the drive. Last Craig's list purchase couple years back was same time driving to get an acetylene tank, and I thought I'd be excited about that one. Thanks for the heads up

Melgar - 21-5-2018 at 15:21

Damn it. Nitromethane seems to have gone up in price to $80/gallon with UPS ground shipping, in the US. That comes out to $20/liter, which is a pretty common price to pay for reagents, so I guess it's not THAT bad yet.

Incidentally, don't they give stores basically an infinite amount of time to sell off their remaining stocks? If I'm remembering correctly, that's standard protocol for phasing out a consumer product, unless there's been some research done showing that something is far more dangerous than anyone thought. And DCM is still the same moderately hazardous substance that we already knew it was.

DavidJR - 25-5-2018 at 17:10

Re the DCM in paint stripper ban and safer alternatives: I have found benzyl alcohol based paint strippers which work pretty well, and are certainly much less hazardous (not toxic, not carcinogenic, and not especially flammable).