Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Tracking EBAY sales

Tracking EBAY sales

gregxy - 8-5-2007 at 09:52

Does anyone out there know if the FBI/CIA or who ever tracks EBAY purchases in the USA??

I have purchased aluminum powder and hexamine on ebay and no one has raided my home. There is a guy selling NH4NO3 in 10 lb lots. I'm just wondering if buying too much of this kind of thing will put me on some "terrorist watch" list.

woelen - 8-5-2007 at 13:46

I am ordering chemicals over the Internet for more than 6 years already, and I think in this way, I have obtained more than 150 chemicals in small amounts over the years. I still am happy experimenting. I ordered chems through eBay, from on-line sellers, from private persons, etc. and always paid with credit card, or with PayPal.

As long as you stick to small quantities (pounds or less), then I see no real risk. If you order many kilograms of the same chemical (especially strong oxidizers, very toxic material, or otherwise risky stuff), then that may cause some flagging on your name, but small amounts of all kinds of chemicals, including many innocuous ones I don't think is a risk.
But I must admit, although I ordered many things from the USA, I am not a US-citizen.

Also stay away from the really watched stuff. For me, this risk is less severe, but I know that in the USA there is a list of highly watched chemicals (so-called List 1). Avoid these chemicals.

[Edited on 8-5-07 by woelen]

The_Davster - 8-5-2007 at 20:06

Quote:

Originally posted by gregxy
I'm just wondering if buying too much of this kind of thing will put me on some "terrorist watch" list.

Yes. Ebay has no moral issues about turning over any and all records to various feds. I think a lot is to do with feds trying to track sellers to tax them. And they will keep databases about everything.
Will a couple purchases have you on a 'list', yes, is that list high enough on their priorities list to make them really out to get you? Probably not. Just don't go ordering dozens of kilos of something, or any listed chems. Like woelen mentioned.

Just treat it like any other chemical supplier, the same precautions must be taken on ebay as with a real one.

quicksilver - 9-5-2007 at 06:26

There is little question in my mind that it's easy to get "on a list" from some federal agency. That had been established many years ago in the United States but it doesn't mean that you should feel any trepidation or reluctance to continue to buy from Ebay. but there is NO QUESTION in my mind of their policies and they interaction they have with 3 letter agencies, etc. I actually think that everyone who even reads about certain subjects and browses the net for same or writes Email with tagged references is on a list. But lists don't mean anything until civil liberties are withdrawn. I don't think it's paranoiac to say that there are thousands of lists but they are just that.....

Fleaker - 9-5-2007 at 16:48

I wouldn't be too concerned. Ebay does comply with any requests, and probably turns over thousands of sales records monthly.

They may keep tabs on you, but if you're not buying stuff in bulk, direct precursors, illegal materials, or acting shady about it, you'll be fine. I ordered a lot of sodium off of ebay, and in retrospect, that purchase probably looks very bad. I consistently and openly buy glassware off of ebay too, and never once have I had a problem. However, I've done nothing illegal with the sodium, and it has uses outside of chemistry (friend of mine rebuilds engines, he actually paid for the stuff, I just got a finder's fee

). If you have a good reason to be using it and you're open and honest about your intentions, then I do not see much problem.

Honestly, if someone were up to something bad, why would they obtain it through ebay? Surely an electronic fingerprint is a no-no?

evil_lurker - 9-5-2007 at 21:24

I've ordered tons of crap off of ebay with no problems... just stay the heck away from the iodine and sassafras oil and you should be OK.

Pyridinium - 11-5-2007 at 09:55

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0428062dea1.html

Looks to me as though Carlos Legrand was making something he shouldn't have been. I'm going to assume it was the safrole and the tablet press that got the authorities on him, but the thing that bothers me is that they listed several innocuous things on his arrest warrant as "used in the manufacture of MDMA". A melting point apparatus, MnO2, a rotavap, and a few other things that any [legitimate] lab would almost certainly have. The oxygen in the air and the water from the faucet could also be "used in the manufacture of" drugs or whatever.

So, despite the fact that many of us order glassware etc on ebay and use it for legitimate purposes, there is always the worry that someone will "get the wrong idea" when we buy distilling apparati, melting point apparati, thermometers, MnO2, etc. :mad:

That said, I don't plan to stop using ebay. Nor do I plan to stop being a chemist just because someone, who knows next to nothing about chemistry, has decided that my lab equipment could "potentially" be used to make drugs.

I think I know what some of you are worried about : if they look around in your lab and can't find any drug residue, they'll fudge the data. If you know what I mean. Whether that will actually happen or not seems to be a hotly debated area.

I know an analytical chemist who runs a certified testing lab. He processes samples from all over the state. He even gets work from 3-letter agencies. The authorities STILL came to his place to see what he was doing "with all these solvents".

Truly I say to you, something is wrong with this picture.

woelen - 11-5-2007 at 13:51

Quote:

So, despite the fact that many of us order glassware etc on ebay and use it for legitimate purposes, there is always the worry that someone will "get the wrong idea" when we buy distilling apparati, melting point apparati, thermometers, MnO2, etc

I certainly would not worry too much about this. It is the combination of items. I can't believe that MnO2 or any weird totally non-drugs related combination of chemicals will trigger this. MnO2 apparently can be used in the process of drugs-making, but as you said, distilled water can also be used for that.

I'm 100% sure that the tablet press, combined with the saffrole and added to this all the other items triggered the investigations. And I must agree, a tablet press and saffrole do not have a place in a ligit home lab. Could you imagine any non-drugs experimenting with saffrole?

Also surprising was that ethyldiamine was just mentioned a chemical, while e.g. MnO2 was mentioned as a chemical, used for making MDMA.

[Edited on 11-5-07 by woelen]

Pyridinium - 11-5-2007 at 14:26

Quote:

Originally posted by woelen
I'm 100% sure that the tablet press, combined with the saffrole and added to this all the other items triggered the investigations. And I must agree, a tablet press and saffrole do not have a place in a ligit home lab. Could you imagine any non-drugs experimenting with saffrole?
[Edited on 11-5-07 by woelen]

You're right woelen. When talking to non-chemistry people on the net, however, we madscientists should be sure to point out that it isn't hot plates and thermometers that indicate someone to be a drug cook; it's safrole and tablet presses.

Some people think of all these things in similar terms.

But then there's the story of the two 'alchemists' in Henry, Virginia, who were definitely not making drugs, but LE decided they must have a meth lab because "three necked flasks are used in drug manufacture". These two guys lost over $15000 in equipment, smashed up that same day by LE, who later came back with test results and realized it wasn't really a drug lab.

Then again, this ordeal wasn't because of buying on ebay, but because the men had some kind of contact with local LE, who freaked out because they weren't used to seeing glassware in someone's home.

I think it's actually more perilous to an amateur experimenter when some policeman makes an on-the-spot decision, as opposed to having had time to study the person's on-line buying patterns, etc., to see what it is they're really up to.

Fleaker - 13-5-2007 at 08:26

I think a lot also depends on demeanor. If one is honest and straightforward about the hobby and offers a good explanation or even demonstration of what one is doing, then people take much more kindly to it. A lab book/log book of experiments, a database of MSDS and disposal protocols go the extra mile.

But really, I'm worried too. I almost feel that I need to be covert too, because people just get the wrong ideas. After all, it's not hard for someone to think the wrong thing and assume the worst just because they do not understand what you're doing. And then there's the expert witness who's a chemist that holds the firm belief that chemistry not done in the university or industrial research lab is no *legitimate* chemistry at all. That I think is our great struggle, the legitimacy of what we're doing. However, as long as their are people that do buy drug precursors and tablet presses, or people that buy 50lb sacks of pentaerythritol, there will always be a need for this. It's those few that ruin it for the majority of us honest folk.

With respect to those unfortunate gentleman in Virginia, you would think that law enforcement would realize that they're up to nothing bad if they're so open about it. How many drug cooks would advertise their laboratories to the law? C'mon guys. Bet those two fellows never got more than "Aw shucks, sorry about the glass, but y'all shouldn't a had it anyways now."

turd - 13-5-2007 at 12:22

Quote:

Could you imagine any non-drugs experimenting with saffrole?

In a heart-beat. Safrole is a wonderful compound: A benzodioxole group, a 3C-linker and a polymerisable group. It's cheap and natural (green chemistry!).

Coordinate it to some metal and polymerise it with whatever monomer you like to get functional polymers.

Polymerise it on a solid support for reverse phase chromatography.

And so on and so forth...

pantone159 - 13-5-2007 at 20:23

Quote:

Could you imagine any non-drugs experimenting with safrole?

Wouldn't you also be able to break the double bond to make an alcohol or acid derivative, and then make esters from that, which probably smell nice?

Still, I don't think I'd try to buy any on eBay.

woelen - 13-5-2007 at 22:30

Quote:

Originally posted by turdIn a heart-beat. Safrole is a wonderful compound: A benzodioxole group, a 3C-linker and a polymerisable group. It's cheap and natural (green chemistry!).

Coordinate it to some metal and polymerise it with whatever monomer you like to get functional polymers.

Polymerise it on a solid support for reverse phase chromatography.

And so on and so forth...

All these nice things can also be done with other chemicals, and with some effort you'll probably find another non-drugs-related chemical which combines all these properties.

No, I will stay away from this, I value my materials too much...

alancj - 16-5-2007 at 20:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyridinium
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0428062dea1.html

... but the thing that bothers me is that they listed several innocuous things on his arrest warrant as "used in the manufacture of MDMA". A melting point apparatus, MnO2, a rotavap, and a few other things that any [legitimate] lab would almost certainly have. The oxygen in the air and the water from the faucet could also be "used in the manufacture of" drugs or whatever.

Well, I think when it comes to proving someone was a meth cook, beyond a reasonable doubt, then they still need to detail that the person had just about everything needed to make the suspect compounds, plus residue of it in the lab. If you only had a few things on a precursor list, and not the rest of the stuff required (which could include MnO2 and other common chemicals), then how are they going to prove you were a "meth cook"?

I would certainly hope that the government is at lest that rationale.

Just my 2 cents
-Alan

evil_lurker - 17-5-2007 at 06:50

Unfortunatly they are not that rational.

The way the laws read in the USA, merely purchasing List I chemicals is enough to get slapped with a "possession with intent to manufacture" charge.

[Edited on 17-5-2007 by evil_lurker]

tito-o-mac - 6-7-2007 at 06:22

I just filled up a form to the authorities to show and declare that I have purchased something flammable/propellant to alert them. This way, you won't receive as much problems, as long as you're not doing anything wrong with it right?

quicksilver - 7-7-2007 at 07:02

Quote:

Originally posted by tito-o-mac
I just filled up a form to the authorities to show and declare that I have purchased something flammable/propellant to alert them. This way, you won't receive as much problems, as long as you're not doing anything wrong with it right?

Here you must define the term "wrong".
Would anyone take a short-cut to appear productive on the job? In law enforcement, that means to arrest someone and concoct a story for the DA to prosecute that person for an alleged crime. I imagine that you need to ask the question; "would someone do something like that to increase their statistics"?....Oh God, yes.

S.C. Wack - 24-8-2007 at 03:41

A federal agent assigned to troll the Internet for drug-manufacturing purchases tipped off investigators to a potential ecstasy lab in a south Boulder home after tracing suspicious eBay transactions to the house.

Carl Dubois, 29, is suspected of using an online PayPal account to buy thousands of dollars' worth of chemicals, laboratory equipment and "essential oils" commonly used to manufacture ecstasy, according to a search warrant made public Tuesday.

Dubois' suspected eBay activity includes a $2,595 purchase from Trung Nguyen, "a Canadian citizen who has previously sold sassafras oil," investigators said. Sassafras oil contains large amounts of safrole, which is used to make ecstasy, according to the warrant.

"Although many of the items Dubois purchased can be used for other purposes, when used together in the proper quantities and procedures, these items can be used in the illicit manufacture of ecstasy," a detective wrote in the warrant.

Dubois and Debra Cerio, 41, were arrested last week after police raided their south Boulder home at 720 S. 46th St., which backs up to Summit Middle School. Police said they found enough chemicals to produce up to 80,000 doses of ecstasy.

Both have been charged with multiple drug charges, including conspiring to manufacture, distribute or posses a controlled substance.

Dubois left jail Tuesday after posting a $60,000 bond. Cerio has been out of jail for a week after posting a $25,000 bond. Neither could be reached for comment.

Officers who dismantled the lab said there's no indication the two sold any doses of the drug, adding that the suspected lab was caught early in its inception.

Cerio, who police said is Dubois' girlfriend, is suspected of being involved in the ecstasy lab because her name is on a credit card statement for several purchases from chemical-supply businesses, according to the warrant.

Friends, though, have said Dubois had the lab equipment because he's an aspiring chemical engineering student. Cerio has publicly declared the couple's innocence.

A federal agent who monitors the purchase of sassafras oil, lab glassware and chemicals through administrative subpoenas began tracking Dubois' activity on eBay last year.

In July 2006, Dubois used the PayPal account freebasing@hotmail.com to buy vacuum pumps, glass beakers, flasks and chemicals. On Jan. 17, 18 and 20, he bought three flasks, a gas regulator and $879 worth of "essential oils," the search warrant said.

Officers said they confirmed that Dubois received items purchased online through the "freebasing" account by collecting trash from outside the south Boulder residence.

Investigators determined Dubois probably wasn't taking the chemicals he bought to a lab because his "normal mode of transportation is a motorcycle."

"I believe it is unlikely that Dubois would be transporting chemicals and laboratory equipment from his residence, where they are received, to another location on his motorcycle," the warrant said.

Over the past two years, the federal agent who informed Boulder County investigators about the possible ecstasy lab has provided various agencies with information that has led to the discovery and dismantling of more than three dozen methamphetamine and ecstasy labs, the warrant said.

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2007/aug/22/ebay-activity-le...

woelen - 24-8-2007 at 06:24

Although I find it quite worrying that they are searching eBay for suspicious transactions, I had not expected otherwise. This case is not a strong case in favor of most legit buyers, who are true hobbyists. A purchase of more than $2500 worth of sassafras oil also would make me think of drugs-making. What would a home chemist want with sassafras oil, the more so with $2500 worth of it? I cannot believe that this couple had other intentions than making drugs of this.

S.C. Wack - 24-8-2007 at 14:03

But the article does not say that he bought sassafras oil. Nor are the police saying what they are basing dosage units on. No one is saying that they found safrole or anything else except "chemicals" and "glassware", even though as usual the police have already pronounced the couples guilt in the media.

The woman involved has a bad mugshot on the Rocky Mountain News site.

They went through the whole sarin/NCl3 lab routine as usual.

"Officers remain on scene and are being sent into the house wearing protective gear to photograph and collect evidence. Because of the hazardous chemicals present, Prentup said, each agent can only spend 20 minutes in the house before being rotated out."

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2007/aug/14/local-police-dea...

evil_lurker - 24-8-2007 at 15:53

Lord knows I have bought all kinds of stuff off ebay.. but never iodine, safrole, or any other Listed Chemical... purchasing safrole off of ebay is a bust waiting to happen...

quicksilver - 24-8-2007 at 22:03

Quote:

Originally posted by woelen
I am ordering chemicals over the Internet for more than 6 years already, and I think in this way, I have obtained more than 150 chemicals in small amounts over the years.

I think this exemplifies the (concept of openness) "ain't doing nothing illegal" ambiance. Most likely the safest if indeed one is not buying List 1 stuff. The cash-paying post-office box thing would certainly turn heads.

But mostly, I agree with amount being a trigger. If I am correct even List 1 stuff won't flip on a lot of attention (nor violate Fed statutes) if it's bought in small amounts (25gr of P, etc). But I wouldn't do it myself in any event. Drug mfg really IS the issue with chemicals IMO.

16MillionEyes - 25-8-2007 at 15:40

Where is this so called "list 1" found?

DEA Watched Chemicals

MadHatter - 25-8-2007 at 16:33

(1) List I chemicals:
(i) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(1)(ii) of this section, the
following thresholds have been established for List I chemicals.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chemical Threshold by base weight
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(A) Anthranilic acid, its esters, and its 30 kilograms.
salts.
(B) Benzyl cyanide........................ 1 kilogram.
(C) Ergonovine and its salts.............. 10 grams.
(D) Ergotamine and its salts.............. 20 grams.
(E) N-Acetylanthranilic acid, its esters, 40 kilograms.
and its salts.
(F) Norpseudoephedrine, its salts, optical 2.5 kilograms.
isomers, and salts of optical isomers.
(G) Phenylacetic acid, its esters, and its 1 kilogram.
salts.
(H) Phenylpropanolamine, its salts, 2.5 kilograms.
optical isomers, and salts of optical
isomers.
(I) Piperidine and its salts.............. 500 grams.
(J) Pseudoephedrine, its salts, optical 1 kilogram.
isomers, and salts of optical isomers.
(K) 3,4-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone.. 4 kilograms.
(L) Methylamine and its salts............. 1 kilogram.
(M) Ethylamine and its salts.............. 1 kilogram.
(N) Propionic anhydride................... 1 gram.
(O) Isosafrole............................ 4 kilograms.
(P) Safrole............................... 4 kilograms.
(Q) Piperonal............................. 4 kilograms.
(R) N-Methylephedrine, its salts, optical 1 kilogram.
isomers, and salts of optical isomers (N-
Methylephedrine).
(S) N-Methylpseudoephedrine, its salts, 1 kilogram.
optical isomers, and salts of optical
isomers.
(T) Hydriodic Acid........................ 1.7 kilograms (or 1 liter by
volume).
(U) Benzaldehyde.......................... 4 kilograms.
(V) Nitroethane........................... 2.5 kilograms.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

(ii) Notwithstanding the thresholds established in paragraphs
(f)(1)(i) and

[[Page 124]]

(g) of this section, the following thresholds will apply for the
following List I chemicals that are contained in drug products that are
regulated pursuant to Sec. 1300.02(b)(28)(i)(D) of this chapter
(thresholds for retail distributors and distributors required to report
under Sec. 1310.03(c) of this part are for a single transaction; the
cumulative threshold provision does not apply. All other distributions
are subject to the cumulative threshold provision.):

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chemical Threshold by weight
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(A) Ephedrine, its salts, optical isomers, No threshold. All
and salts of optical isomers as the sole transactions regulated.
therapeutically significant medicinal
ingredient.
(B) Ephedrine, its salts, optical isomers,
and salts of optical isomers in
combination with therapeutically
significant amounts of another medicinal
ingredient:
(1) Distributions by retail 24 grams.
distributors.
(2) Distributions by persons required 24 grams.
to report under Sec. 1310.03(c) of
this part.
(3) All other domestic distributions 1 kilogram.
(other than paragraphs (f)(1)(ii)(B)
(1) and (2) of this section).
(4) Imports and Exports............... 1 kilogram
(C) Pseudoephedrine, its salts, optical
isomers, and salts of optical isomers
(other than ordinary over-the-counter
products):
(1) Distributions by retail 9 grams, and sold in package
distributors. sizes of not more than 3
grams of pseudoephedrine
base.
(2) Distributions by persons required 9 grams, and sold in package
to report under Sec. 1310.03(c) of sizes of not more than 3
this part. grams of pseudoephedrine
base.
(3) All other domestic distributions, 1 kilogram.
(other than paragraphs (f)(1)(ii)(C)
(1) and (2) of this section).
(4) Imports and Exports............... 1 kilogram.
(D) Pseudoephedrine, its salts, optical
isomers, and salts of optical isomers
(ordinary over-the-counter products):
(1) Distributions by retail Exempt.
distributors.
(2) Distributions by persons required 9 grams, and sold in package
to report under Sec. 1310.03(c) of sizes of not more than 3
this part. grams of pseudoephedrine
base.
(3) All other domestic distributions 1 kilogram.
(other than paragraphs (f)(1)(ii)(D)
(1) and (2) of this section).
(4) Imports and Exports............... 1 kilogram.
(E) Phenylpropanolamine, its salts,
optical isomers, and salts of optical
isomers (other than ordinary over-the-
counter products):
(1) Distributions by retail 9 grams, and sold in package
distributors. sizes of not more than 3
grams of
phenylpropanolamine base.
(2) Distributions by persons required 9 grams, and sold in package
to report under Sec. 1310.03(c) of sizes of not more than 3
this part. grams of
phenylpropanolamine base.
(3) All other domestic distributions 2.5 kilograms.
(other than paragraphs (f)(1)(ii)(E)
(1) and (2) of this section).
(4) Imports and Exports............... 2.5 kilograms.
(F) Phenylpropanolamine, its salts,
optical isomers, and salts of optical
isomers (ordinary over-the-counter
products):
(1) Distributions by retail Exempt.
distributors.
(2) Distributions by persons required 9 grams, and sold in package
to report under Sec. 1310.03(c) of sizes of not more than 3
this part. grams of
phenylpropanolamine base.
(3) All other domestic distributions 2.5 kilograms.
(other than paragraphs (f)(1)(ii)(F)
(1) and (2) of this section).
(4) Imports and Exports............... 2.5 kilograms.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

(2) List II Chemicals:
(i) Imports and Exports

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chemical Threshold by volume Threshold by weight
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(A) Acetic anhydride................... 250 gallons........................ 1,023 kilograms.
(B) Acetone............................ 500 gallons........................ 1,500 kilograms.
(C) Benzyl chloride.................... N/A................................ 4 kilograms.
(D) Ethyl ether........................ 500 gallons........................ 1,364 kilograms.
(E) Potassium permanganate............. N/A................................ 500 kilograms.
(F) 2-Butanone (MEK)................... 500 gallons........................ 1,455 kilograms.

[[Page 125]]

(G) Toluene............................ 500 gallons........................ 1,591 kilograms.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(ii) Domestic Sales

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chemical Threshold by volume Threshold by weight
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(A) Acetic anhydride................... 250 gallons........................ 1,023 kilograms.
(B) Acetone............................ 50 gallons......................... 150 kilograms.
(C) Benzyl chloride.................... N/A................................ 1 kilogram.
(D) Ethyl ether........................ 50 gallons......................... 135.8 kilograms.
(E) Potassium permanganate............. N/A................................ 55 kilograms.
(F) 2-Butanone (MEK)................... 50 gallons......................... 145 kilograms.
(G) Toluene............................ 50 gallons......................... 159 kilograms.
(H) Iodine............................. N/A................................ 0.4 kilograms.
(I) Anhydrous Hydrogen chloride........ N/A................................ 0.0 kilograms.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(iii) The cumulative threshold is not applicable to domestic sales
of Acetone, 2-Butanone (MEK), and Toluene.
(iv) Exports, Transshipments and International Transactions to
Designated Countries as Set Forth in Sec. 1310.08(b).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Threshold by
Chemical volume Threshold by weight
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(A) Hydrochloric acid.......... 50 gallons
(1) Anhydrous Hydrogen .................. 27 kilograms.
chloride.
(B) Sulfuric acid.............. 50 gallons
------------------------------------------------------------------------

(v) Export and International Transactions to Designated Countries,
and Importations for Transshipment or Transfer to Designated Countries

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Threshold by
Chemical volume Threshold by weight
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(A) Methyl Isobutyl Ketone 500 gallons....... 1523 kilograms.
(MIBK).
(B) Reserved.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

(g) For listed chemicals for which no thresholds have been
established, the size of the transaction is not a factor in determining
whether the transaction meets the definition of a regulated transaction
as set forth in Sec. 1300.02(b)(28) of this chapter. All such
transactions, regardless of size, are subject to recordkeeping and
reporting requirements as set forth in this part and notification
provisions as set forth in part 1313 of this chapter.
(1) Listed chemicals for which no thresholds have been established:
(i) Ephedrine, its salts, optical isomers and salts of optical
isomers
(ii) Red phosphorus
(iii) White phosphorus (Other names: Yellow Phosphorus)
(iv) Hypophosphorous acid and its salts
(v) gamma-Butyrolactone (Other names include: GBL; Dihydro-2(3H)-
furanone; 1,2-Butanolide; 1,4-Butanolide; 4-Hydroxybutanoic acid
lactone; gamma-hydroxybutyric acid lactone)
(2) [Reserved]
(h) The thresholds and conditions in paragraphs (f) and (g) of this
section will apply to transactions involving regulated chemical
mixtures. For purposes of determining whether the weight or volume of a
chemical mixture meets or exceeds the applicable quantitative threshold,
the following rules apply:
(1) For chemical mixtures containing List I chemicals or List II
chemicals other than those in paragraph (h)(2) of this section, the
threshold is determined by the weight of the listed chemical in the
chemical mixture.
(2) For the List II chemicals acetone, ethyl ether, 2-butanone,
toluene, and methyl isobutyl ketone, the threshold is determined by the
weight of the entire chemical mixture.
(3) If two or more listed chemicals are present in a chemical
mixture, and the quantity of any of these chemicals

[[Page 126]]

equals or exceeds the threshold applicable to that chemical, then the
transaction is regulated.

I wouldn't buy in person or order a List 1 chemical because the seller is required by the DEA
to record the buyer's personal information.

[Edited on 2007/8/25 by MadHatter]

chemrox - 25-8-2007 at 19:43

let's have a little perspective; having a user name "freebasing@hotmail.com" and spending 2500 on safrole is a little over the top ... I don't see a way to avoid being on various lists if you want to do anything the least bit complicated .. carbon tet is a CA precursor for example and P is awfully useful at times .. I like to use a little I2 to start Grignards .. some of the lists make no sense .. propionic anhydride? I think its the totallity of what one is doing that makes for scrutiny....what I object most to is the way these regs can be used to shut people up or punish people for what they say. Recall they pulled Sasha Shulgin's licenses and raided his lab after he published PiKHAL. We need a Libertarian revolution now!

Aristocles - 3-11-2007 at 21:12

Displiceo, for reviving this, but I am new. :cool:

The term "Threshhold" weight/volume is the 'legal' amount or the amount allowed, sans reporting, to be imported/exported or sold domestically (depending on the chart heading)?

I think I understand but I'm a bit confused by this: "(g) of this section, the following thresholds will apply for the following List I chemicals that are contained in drug products that are regulated pursuant to Sec. 1300.02(b)(28)(i)(D) of this chapter
(thresholds for retail distributors and distributors required to report under Sec. 1310.03(c) of this part are for a single transaction; the cumulative threshold provision does not apply. All other distributions are subject to the cumulative threshold provision"

Perhaps everything on the list is reported?

[Edited on 3-11-2007 by Aristocles]

Reporting

MadHatter - 3-11-2007 at 21:41

You can count on it ! I would assume that any List I purchase will be reported.
The seller would probably do it to cover his/her ass !

[Edited on 2007/11/4 by MadHatter]

quicksilver - 17-11-2007 at 06:18

Is eBay even safe to use in general? Are activities tracked?
That's starting to become a question with powerful validity when we hear about the arrest of a young man specifically from the tracking of his eBay purchases.
http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20070928/NEWS01/70928010

The Nevada youth bought a scale commonly associated with "drug sales" (a common triple beam chemical scale) it "flagged" something / someone in that fellow's state (or some federal entity; perhaps the flagging is much more intense than first surmised...) & an investigation was initiated. In this case the young man DID have a gram of methamphetamine when he was interviewed by the authorities and was arrested, etc.

Personally, I don't like eBay's way of doing things; I never had. I have had many friends that have used eBay and a few that bought science related materials from it. However I would NOT buy anything that could be misconstrued from eBay. It seems that from their perspective, you are guilty until proven innocent.

I think I may do an experiment in writing scripted web searches and track eBay related arrests for a month and see if there is any true cause for concern other than a guess. AP wire & Nexus had multiple hits but I didn't check them out. I am aware that it's easy to find an eBay arrest that has a science related element to it simply by searching most any engine with "eBay, arrest, chemicals" - THAT is not a good sign.

[Edited on 17-11-2007 by quicksilver]

joeflsts - 17-11-2007 at 09:22

Quote:

Originally posted by quicksilver
Is eBay even safe to use in general? Are activities tracked?
That's starting to become a question with powerful validity when we hear about the arrest of a young man specifically from the tracking of his eBay purchases.
http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20070928/NEWS01/70928010

The Nevada youth bought a scale commonly associated with "drug sales" (a common triple beam chemical scale) it "flagged" something / someone in that fellow's state (or some federal entity; perhaps the flagging is much more intense than first surmised...) & an investigation was initiated. In this case the young man DID have a gram of methamphetamine when he was interviewed by the authorities and was arrested, etc.

Personally, I don't like eBay's way of doing things; I never had. I have had many friends that have used eBay and a few that bought science related materials from it. However I would NOT buy anything that could be misconstrued from eBay. It seems that from their perspective, you are guilty until proven innocent.

I think I may do an experiment in writing scripted web searches and track eBay related arrests for a month and see if there is any true cause for concern other than a guess. AP wire & Nexus had multiple hits but I didn't check them out. I am aware that it's easy to find an eBay arrest that has a science related element to it simply by searching most any engine with "eBay, arrest, chemicals" - THAT is not a good sign.

[Edited on 17-11-2007 by quicksilver]

I would say that this "1.6 grams of methamphetamine" had a lot more to do with her arrest than the scale. The scale simply allows for more charges. Face it, if someone makes or sells drugs they are eventually going to get caught. When they get caught the autorities will use every charge legally available to them. It isn't a winning game.

Joe

Magpie - 17-11-2007 at 10:54

From Joe:

Quote:

I think you are missing the point here. To me the point is that by simply buying a triple beam balance off eBay you may be investigated.

Now I ask you, isn't that pretty flimsy grounds for investigating someone? I can't even begin to count how many legitimate uses there are for a triple beam balance.

What's next? "Police investigate 50 year old man for buying coffee filters at Safeway."

The_Davster - 17-11-2007 at 11:54

I wonder if he was simply reported for a scale of he had been buying drug precursors or something that they took notice of on ebay previously?

Quote:

The Nevada youth bought a scale commonly associated with "drug sales" (a common triple beam chemical scale)

What the hell is this? Is a simple scale now drug paraphernalia to the media? :mad:

I was curious so I looked at what I could come up with arrests relating to ebay.

(Different guy)
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,D...
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/08/cops-ecstasy-la...

Quote:

Morever, he used the address freebasing@hotmail.com for his eBay and PayPal accounts

this made me laugh....what a moron

joeflsts - 17-11-2007 at 19:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Magpie
From Joe:

Quote:

Maybe we are missing each other's point. She wasn't arrested because she had a scale. She was arrested because she had a controlled substance with the intent to sell it. The scale was icing on the cake.

If you own a scale and are selling meth you can bet they will use it against you.

Joe

quicksilver - 18-11-2007 at 05:56

The concept I am introducing is that eBay "puts it's nose into your business". That fact that the arrest was augmented by the possession of a scale is of little importance but the fact that eBay made efforts [to produce tracking] of buying behaviour for the authorities; that is reprehensible.
What right does eBay have to make any determination that a scale or for that matter anything will be used in an anti-social manner? Do they "have an obligation" to report such sales?
With their nanny-state mentality firmly guiding them, eBay makes determinations for the public welfare....what a crock or shit! But more importantly, how dangerous this can be for the truly innocent that (on paper) looks to be nefarious.

joeflsts - 18-11-2007 at 06:06

Quote:

Originally posted by quicksilver
The concept I am introducing is that eBay "puts it's nose into your business". That fact that the arrest was augmented by the possession of a scale is of little importance but the fact that eBay made efforts [to produce tracking] of buying behaviour for the authorities; that is reprehensible.
What right does eBay have to make any determination that a scale or for that matter anything will be used in an anti-social manner? Do they "have an obligation" to report such sales?
With their nanny-state mentality firmly guiding them, eBay makes determinations for the public welfare....what a crock or shit! But more importantly, how dangerous this can be for the truly innocent that (on paper) looks to be nefarious.

I have read the article twice and see no reference to ebay. Is there another article related to this story?

Joe

quicksilver - 19-11-2007 at 02:54

I apologize, there was another earlier article listed in the Nevada Appeal that spoke of the sale being from eBay. Unfortunately I referenced the later article in the OP where eBay is not listed, etc.

Scale

MadHatter - 19-11-2007 at 19:19

It doesn't matter who did the ratting. The fact is triple-beam scales are common in the
drug trade. I can buy one OTC without drawing suspicion but the nosy nanny, we
know as eBay is eager to please the LEOs.

Magpie - 19-11-2007 at 21:38

So, how does someone who wants to make soap or cosmetics buy a scale off eBay without getting investigated by the police?

If certain items are offensive to the employees of ebay why don't they just forbid their sale? By allowing sale then informing LE of the identity of the buyer it seems as if eBay is attempting "entrapment."

It is very strange to me that buying a triple beam balance is adequate justification for a judge to issue a search warrant.

undead_alchemist - 21-11-2007 at 21:39

Well it could be that the seller was a LEO.

quicksilver - 24-11-2007 at 05:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Magpie
If certain items are offensive to the employees of ebay why don't they just forbid their sale? By allowing sale then informing LE of the identity of the buyer it seems as if eBay is attempting "entrapment."

In point of fact they have done both & continue to do so. I have a feeling that people will start to be turned off to eBay as time goes on. I only wish I had at my finger tips the things which have been "banned" by that firm. I'm pretty sure that would be an informative list.

The question of whether that is entrapment in the legal sense is a damn good one.

The_Davster - 24-11-2007 at 11:35

Banned by ebay
htt p://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/items-ov.html

It has been a few years since I bothered with ebay, and the list has grown since I last looked.

-jeffB - 7-12-2007 at 20:21

Quote:

Originally posted by chemrox
let's have a little perspective; having a user name "freebasing@hotmail.com" and spending 2500 on safrole is a little over the top ...

I came here to say this. Specifically, from the article:

In July 2006, Dubois used the PayPal account freebasing@hotmail.com to buy vacuum pumps, glass beakers, flasks and chemicals.

Golly, do you suppose "methmaker@hotmail.com" and "pleasebustme@hotmail.com" were already taken?

Quote:

I don't see a way to avoid being on various lists if you want to do anything the least bit complicated .. carbon tet is a CA precursor for example and P is awfully useful at times .. I like to use a little I2 to start Grignards ..

Well, you're clearly with the terrorists. I mean, what on Earth are Grignard reactions used for, other than making WMDs and dangerous drugs?

LoKi - 5-3-2008 at 23:52

intersting ebay arrest case at http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0428062dea1.html.
rather humerous really.
Once when I was bored I searched for sassafrass oil, looked at the people who were buying from the seller of the oil (which by the way was said to be synthetic on the product description) and in under a minute found someone with a numbered ebay ID whose entire buying history was a shopping list for an X lab. Didn't follow up to see if his account remained active, but it was easy for me to find someone doing dirty deeds, it would be even easier for ebay, yet he had been working on his lab for quite some time and aparently remained undetected so its hard to believe ebay makes a huge effort to bust these guys

quicksilver - 6-3-2008 at 06:33

Ebay plays BOTH sides of the coin with profit first. Don't expect any effort on their part to protect your privacy. It's not in their bast interest nor is it something they have any stake in. aside from that Ebay believes in volume and low maintenance. That means the less they have to work the better. Interdiction from the constabulary makes work for them that yields no profits.

MagicJigPipe - 9-3-2008 at 01:01

It's true. All it has to do with is money and making sure they can keep on collecting more money. They will do the least possible as long as those two goals are realized. That's true of almost every corporation in the US if not the world.

If it's profitable (or they think not doing so will cause them to risk losing money) to work with LE then they will do whatever LE tells them to do. Like mentioned above, they will make the choice that ends in more profit or protection 100% of the time and if that choice makes it look like they are protecting the public then, even better for them.

Money, money and more money. That's the bottom line. Even in government (especially US).

On a lighter note. Let's say two people commit the same crime in the US. One person is rich and the other very poor. Who do you think is more likely to be punished more severly (for various reasons of course)? IMO that is not justice.

Our system of government tries to reduce this injustice by providing a public defender to poor people. Anyone who has ever had to use a public defender knows what I'm talking about when I say, "they are usually complete morons. Just useless." You might as well represent yourself. You know how they say, "A person who represents himself has a fool for a client"? I think a person who allows a public defender to represent them is more foolish than someone who represents themselves. I know I certainly would have been better off representing myself when I went to court a long time ago over all that bullshit.

zed - 30-9-2008 at 02:09

Me, I'm not a chemical buyer......But, I have more or less monitored chemical availability on e-bay. And, not much is offered anymore. What is still out there, seems to have gone way up in price.

So, you haven't actually purchased chemicals on e-bay? So what? Your browsing is being tracked. If a government agency asks e-bay for an inventory of every item you have ever browsed......There is a reasonable chance e-bay will have the records, and a 100% chance they will hand over whatever they have.

Aside from their anti-chemistry bias, E-bay has become incredibly sissy-fied in other ways. Nowadays, they have hundreds of rules about what you can and cannot, buy and sell.

No guns, no human body parts, no Nazi stuff, no porn, no large animal skulls........The list goes on, and on, and on.

Additionally, they now have announced, that they will no longer allow payment by cash/check/money order. You must use PayPal, a credit card, or some similar means of payment. All very trace-able

If a feller was a little paranoid, well.....He might get to thinkin' we're heading in the direction of becoming some kind of "Orwell-ian" police state.

Make that.....Corporate "Orwell-ian" police state. Sounds even better.

[Edited on 30-9-2008 by zed]

[Edited on 30-9-2008 by zed]

[Edited on 30-9-2008 by zed]

Panache - 2-10-2008 at 22:31

Why would purchasing 1500L of acetone warrant being on the list. The social cycle is indeed moving from this conservative phase we have experienced this decade and social progressiveness will be popularized again over the next 10-15 years before the 30year cycle comes full circle. Its all so predictable it tedious.
I have a new technique for describing the hobby now and its appears to strike a popular chord with the ignorant. I simply compare the hobby to the same activity undertaken by 'aristocratic gentlemen of means' of centuries past and explain this is how science grew in the early phases. By connecting it with a time and romanticism before terrorism and junkies and bling people seem to not even imagine these things. I always take time to explain that science is actually a method of thinking, that ones needs to practice to improve.
I have been bothered for years by my inability to affect the trend in social thinking. I just don't have the placard waving, letter writing gene but i like to comment and complain. It has pleased me now to think that if we are to change this demonisation of the art it will be effective to go one individual at a time as one feels comfortable, people are tired of fear i believe and like a rational alternative, jut don't order 1500L of acetone or setup an ebay account called 'XTCDLR', i actually saw that as a number plate on a car in the 90's, i guess the transit authority didn't catch on immediately.

[Edited on 12-18-2008 by Polverone]

Polverone - 18-12-2008 at 10:03

I've done some editing and removed a few posts as this thread was veering into religious discussion and the War on Drugs. Please keep it on-topic from here on out.

cal - 3-3-2012 at 14:48

Quote: Originally posted by Pyridinium

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0428062dea1.html

Looks to me as though Carlos Legrand was making something he shouldn't have been. I'm going to assume it was the safrole and the tablet press that got the authorities on him, but the thing that bothers me is that they listed several innocuous things on his arrest warrant as "used in the manufacture of MDMA". A melting point apparatus, MnO2, a rotavap, and a few other things that any [legitimate] lab would almost certainly have. The oxygen in the air and the water from the faucet could also be "used in the manufacture of" drugs or whatever.

So, despite the fact that many of us order glassware etc on ebay and use it for legitimate purposes, there is always the worry that someone will "get the wrong idea" when we buy distilling apparati, melting point apparati, thermometers, MnO2, etc. :mad:

It still goes to the heart of the matter, do not order anything that is controlled or watched. The pill press item is on the DEA watch list even though it was on eBay. That gave them probable cause to get a warrant for his purchase records.

grndpndr - 4-3-2012 at 09:13

Quote: Originally posted by MadHatter

It doesn't matter who did the ratting. The fact is triple-beam scales are common in the
drug trade. I can buy one OTC without drawing suspicion but the nosy nanny, we
know as eBay is eager to please the LEOs.

Since when does buying a triple beam scale with a multitude of legitamite uses warrant an investigation?

GreenD - 5-3-2012 at 13:24

Quote: Originally posted by evil_lurker

I've ordered tons of crap off of ebay with no problems... just stay the heck away from the iodine and sassafras oil and you should be OK.

I've order iodine (30mg) ... no knocks on the door.

I ordered it with 30mL of ammonium hydroxide too!

woelen - 6-3-2012 at 13:12

I understand, even the most eager 3 letter agency will not worry about 30 mg of iodine

It becomes a totally different matter when you order 30 g. It's just a matter of time and not a question whether they arrive or not but a question when they arrive

GreenD - 7-3-2012 at 14:40

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

I understand, even the most eager 3 letter agency will not worry about 30 mg of iodine

It becomes a totally different matter when you order 30 g. It's just a matter of time and not a question whether they arrive or not but a question when they arrive

Someone should try it. Get a friend to buy 30g iodine from ebay. See what happens. Pay him double so s/he does it

entropy51 - 7-3-2012 at 16:28

Quote: Originally posted by GreenD

Someone should try it. Get a friend to buy 30g iodine from ebay. See what happens. Pay him double so s/he does it

With a friend like you, who needs enemies?

neptunium - 7-3-2012 at 21:36

Quote: Originally posted by GreenD

Someone should try it. Get a friend to buy 30g iodine from ebay. See what happens. Pay him double so s/he does it

someone get this kid a spanking ...

S.C. Wack - 29-5-2014 at 22:33

November 15, 2013 at 12:15 AM

Federal Drug Enforcement Administration and FBI agents swarmed into the Jersey City Heights today, arresting a pharmacist on drug production charges and then discovering a large cache of weapons, ammunition and acid at a storage facility at the Tonnelle Circle, officials said.

Jordan Gonzalez, 33, formerly of Jersey City and now of New York, was arrested after law enforcement agents descended on a Bleecker Street building early this morning, New Jersey U.S. Attorney Paul Fishman announced today.

He is charged with attempting to manufacture methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) and possession of chemicals and materials to manufacture a controlled substance, officials said.

Later, federal agents moved to the U-Haul on Tonnelle Avenue, where a large amount the weapons, ammunition and acid was found, according to two city officials. Information was not immediately available from federal officials on the items found at the U-Haul or if the discovery had led to additional charges being filed or additional arrests.

Federal officials said additional warrants were being served in both New Jersey and New York in connection with the investigation.

Gonzalez used an online auction site, believed to be eBay, to purchase materials associated with the manufacture of the hallucinogen as well as various chemicals, flasks and empty gel caps and a machine to fill them, according to the complaint. The U.S. Attorney's Offices confirmed Gonzalez went by the eBay user name "j0r62n."

Gonzalez allegedly conducted internet research on the manufacture of MDA, the complaint says.

FBI agents and Jersey City police sealed off the area in front of 8 Bleecker St. between Summit and Central avenues for further investigation after arresting Gonzalez around 12:30 a.m. today, an eyewitness said.

They evacuated the building, as well as an adjacent building on Central Avenue, with federal authorities saying it was due to the potential danger from chemicals that might be found there.

Jersey City police spokesman Bob McHugh said residents of the Central Avenue building were allowed to return home at about 5 p.m. but the Bleecker Street building is still occupied by investigators tonight.

Juliana Medina, 23, who has lived at 447 Central Ave. for the past year, said she was told she couldn't return to her home, the building that sits adjacent to the site being investigated. At least two neighborhood buildings were evacuated by police as a precautionary measure.

“This has never happened before in this neighborhood,” Medina said, “This is a quiet area.”

Medina said she received a call this morning to pick up her daughter at a nearby daycare and has been waiting outside her building since 8:30 a.m.

Yellow police caution tape lines one side of Central Avenue stretching from South Street to past Bleecker Street.

Several sources said that when officials first responded to Bleecker Street, investigators were looking into suspicions involving the chemical or biological warfare agent ricin. Federal officials would not confirm that and said they had no information to release on the matter. The charges do no reflect the discovery of ricin.

In addition to officials from the FBI and local police, agents from the DEA, bomb squad and Jersey City Fire dDpartment remain on the scene along with ambulances from Jersey City Medical Center.

Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop was at the scene earlier today and was briefed by police and the FBI.

==================================

A New Jersey pharmacist has been charged and arrested for possession of materials to create illegal drugs. Last Thursday, the street of Jordan Gonzalez’s pharmaceutical office was filled with DEA, FBI, Jersey City police, and county sheriffs.

Lori Sender, a pharmacist working across the street from Gonzalez’s office witnessed the chaos. “I think the reason there was so many DEA agents over there and FBI is the potential for any kind of explosion,” she said.

Gonzalez came under suspicion due to the combination of purchases he made on the same account on eBay.com. He purchased sassafras oil, mercuruous fluoride, methylamine hydrochloride, 3 neck round bottom glasses, 1,000 empty gelatin capsules, and a capsule filling machine. These purchases are all used in the production of illegal drugs.

Many think there should be a closer eye on pharmacists since pharmacists are usually at the center of drug distribution because their profession gives them easy access to these chemicals.

------------------------------------------------------------

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Thursday, May 29, 2014, 4:15 PM
NEWARK, N.J. — A New York City pharmacist arrested on drug-related charges admitted in federal court that he had been trying to make weapons-grade ricin and other lethal toxins and had acquired weapons, body armor and manuals on violent confrontation, federal authorities said Thursday.

Jordan Gonzalez pleaded guilty Thursday morning in a federal courtroom in Trenton, New Jersey, to knowingly attempting to develop, produce and possess toxins and to possessing equipment for producing illegal narcotics.

U.S. Attorney for the District of New Jersey, Paul Fishman, said the 34-year-old Gonzalez admitted he had been assembling equipment and materials to produce ricin, abrin and other toxins at his apartments in Jersey City and Manhattan. Gonzalez also obtained weapons, ammunition, body armor and survivalist-themed manuals.

“We all have seen the devastation possible when these behaviors go unchecked,” Fishman said. “With today’s guilty plea, Jordan Gonzalez will face justice and will not be a threat to society.”

Gonzalez admitted in court Thursday that he had acquired the materials in anticipation of “using them in confrontations with other people in the future,” according to the U.S. attorney’s office.

The pharmacist was initially charged by federal authorities in New Jersey with trying to manufacture a controlled substance after authorities found he had made a series of purchases through an online auction of materials associated with the hallucinogen known as MDA.

He was arrested on November 14, 2013, in Jersey City and federal agents searched three locations he was using; a Jersey City storage unit and Gonzalez’s apartments in Jersey City and New York City. Court papers show the searches turned up thousands of seeds containing ricin and abrin, materials to extract and administer those toxins, and explosive precursor chemicals, including materials for making RDX, an explosive compound used in military and commercial demolition applications.

Authorities also found manuals on extracting ricin from seeds, guides for synthesizing explosives and making destructive devices, and numerous books and documents related to the collapse of social order and techniques for surviving in a lawless environment, according to court papers. Federal agents also found approximately 1,000 rounds of ammunition, handguns, components for assault rifles and submachine guns, high capacity magazines, a bulletproof vest and a crossbow pistol. Gonzalez also had materials and training manuals for synthesizing controlled substances.

Fishman credited the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Drug Enforcement Administration, and the cooperation between federal and local law enforcement agencies, for detecting and disrupting Gonzalez’s activities.

Gonzalez could face up to life in prison at his Sept. 17 sentencing.

sbreheny - 24-8-2014 at 21:42

huh? I've purchased about 150g of Iodine on eBay. Not all at once, but in 50g batches. No problems so far (thank God). Are you exaggerating or serious?

There are presently several sellers of Iodine on eBay who have been there for months and sold quite a bit of it. If there were real trouble, I'd expect that they would have been kicked off by now.

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

I understand, even the most eager 3 letter agency will not worry about 30 mg of iodine

It becomes a totally different matter when you order 30 g. It's just a matter of time and not a question whether they arrive or not but a question when they arrive

woelen - 25-8-2014 at 01:11

My excuses for not being very clear and stirring up fear among other members. I did not mean to be serious because GreenD also could not be taken seriously with his 30 mg purchase (hence the smileys), but unfortunately on a forum misinterpretation is easy.

So, I would not worry very much about your iodine purchases. It is the total behavior which may lead to a visit or not. It is the combination of information (purchased, presence on certain forums, other evidences, e.g. from the neighbourhood, how you behaved in the past) which may lead to a visit.

Fantasma4500 - 25-8-2014 at 10:02

if the website you visit (fx ebay.com/bla bla bla saffrole) contains what they are looking for or has somehow been put under 'chemicals' listing and perhaps precursor listing then they will note it down, if you buy from a private seller that doesnt note anything down and you dont look at specific chemicals, like you put 500g benzyl cyanide in your 'basket' then they will have to go through entire conversations with the person, and first have to know its a seller
not to mean that they dont save everything you do on the internet, they just cant always be arsed to look it all through

the entire war on drugs is entirely over-exaggerated, terrorizing many nations to make sure some people dont make profit

roXefeller - 27-8-2014 at 18:01

The war on drugs was an honest attempt to save the populace, though it was probably not constitutional and set a bad precedent. Nowadays, I wouldn't trust the bureaucrats who administer the law (since it is already a passed law it isn't run by congress but by C-student tsars) to actually care enough for the well being of the country to not take advantage of the enormous power it offers. One thing to remember with anti-crime measures, big government generally doesn't like competition, so they outlaw those private sectors that compete.

gregxy - 29-8-2014 at 08:52

A recent study found that in states that allow medical marijuana deaths due to prescription drug overdose are down 25%.

All the "wars" are about one thing, making money.

If you give a person the choice between making money and doing the right thing, most will figure out a way to justify that making the money was the right thing.

careysub - 29-8-2014 at 09:54

Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller

...One thing to remember with anti-crime measures, big government generally doesn't like competition, so they outlaw those private sectors that compete.

This going off further off on a political deviation - but it is also important to remember that private sectors don't like to compete, and prefer to create monopolies and cartels that provide inflated, safe profits; and prefer to bribe legislators to turn over government functions to private business, rent-seek through special legislative protection (copyright law extensions anyone?), and shut down public options that might hold down revenues.

[Edited on 29-8-2014 by careysub]

aga - 30-8-2014 at 14:26

Insane.
It's All gone Insane.

Before chemistry existed, were there any Approved, Fully Trained Chemists ? No.
Maybe a few Alchemists the Gentry Approved of ...

Limiting/Prohibiting Amateur experimentation ensures that Progress, Understanding and Development will eventually cease in the countries that choose to quash amateur chemistry.

We arrived at this level of Knowledge mostly by the efforts of Amateurs.
Not just Chemistry. Radio telecoms is where it is thanks to amateurs too.

'Professional' simply means they get paid each time they do anything. whether it works or not.

'Amateur' signifies that they are interested enough in the subject that money is not the only reason they do it.

I'll take the word of a long-term Amateur over a Professional any day.

Loptr - 21-1-2015 at 13:09

1-phenyl-2-nitropropene
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291353241689

http://www.ebay.com/usr/jelenaze2012

Are they serious??? Yeah, eBay has to be one BIG honeypot. The feds would be stupid not be watching these listings intimately.