Sciencemadness Discussion Board

cyanide

Drunkguy - 2-6-2007 at 23:58

Anybody know where one can buy NaCN or KCN?
Anybody have any to sell?

Either way, let me know.

chemkid - 12-6-2007 at 13:36

try this site:
http://www.hometrainingtools.com/catalog/chemistry/chemicals...

It is where i get all my chems etc.

Ramiel - 12-6-2007 at 16:07

I relented in closing this topic, but please do a little legwork before asking for help.

Drunkguy - 13-6-2007 at 05:40

ok thanks for the idea, the only problem with some of the DIY methods:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=23&...

was that they talking about crazy 1000C blasts which is somewhat agressive.

Toxicity?

joe69cool - 22-6-2007 at 21:22

A quick preliminary search failed to help me address this question: Is HCN (gas) absorbable through skin? If so, how big of a threat is this to short-term exposure in a slightly ventilated (outdoor) area. Sorry if this has been addressed elsewhere.

[Edited on 23-6-2007 by joe69cool]

YT2095 - 23-6-2007 at 01:50

HCN is lighter than air, and yes it can be absorbed through the skin. Fume hoods are much better than outdoors unless you can 100% predict the wind?

use a Rated gas mask always and have some "antidote" on hand always!

Organikum - 23-6-2007 at 09:20

Doesn´t the body actually build up a resistance to cyanides over time? Up to astonishing high doses? Something in earlier times widely exploited by skilled assassins?

So if anybody intends to work with cyanides a lot wouldn´t it be reasonable to get used to it - slowly and over time?

not_important - 23-6-2007 at 09:38

I've not heard of development of a tolerance to cyanide, however doing so for arsenic is well known.

YT2095 - 23-6-2007 at 09:59

yup me too, only ever heard of Arsenic, I`m not sure you Could Physiologically build up any resistance or coping mechanism against Cyanide anymore than Carbon Monoxide for instance, the hemoglobin will respond the same as always.

olmpiad - 23-6-2007 at 16:52

"hemoglobin will respond the same as always. "

I agree. Most likely, he was confusing HCN with As. Amazingly, As can be consumed in amounts up to a 1g (or more!!!) if a tolerance is slowly built up by dosing daily in small increments.

The_Davster - 23-6-2007 at 17:58

Well arsenic is still carcinogenic, so you are just killing yourself slowly.

S.C. Wack - 23-6-2007 at 18:04

Cyanides are toxicologically similar to CO only in the way that both bind to cytochrome c oxidase. Different cause of death, but probably no less easy to aquire a tolerance to.

oxybate - 23-6-2007 at 18:19

Seriously, what is with this cyanide fetish that permeates this board? I have seen more posts regarding cyanide and related chemicals than I ever thought I'd see.

Magpie - 23-6-2007 at 19:20

The classical qualitative test for nitrogen in an organic compound uses a sodium fusion to generate a sodium cyanide solution. The test is positive if you detect the presence of cyanide ion via a Prussian blue color.

Cyanide is useful in processing of gold scrap and ores, I understand.

Moreover, I assume it has many uses in organic synthesis. The making of malonic acid is likely only one case.

The cyanide ion is a fundamental anion of chemistry the purchase of which is denied to us by the nanny state. That in itself is enough to justify making it.

olmpiad - 24-6-2007 at 10:26

Quote:
Originally posted by The_Davster
Well arsenic is still carcinogenic, so you are just killing yourself slowly.


point taken. but then again, it seems that most everything is making that list nowadays...

YT2095 - 24-6-2007 at 10:28

is that the Element itself or just certain compounds that are carcinogens ?

12AX7 - 24-6-2007 at 10:32

I think most anything arsenical eventually gets metabolized enough to be bad.

I'm sure you could make a cryptand around arsenic or something, but then it's not accessible by anything, what's the point.

Tim

olmpiad - 24-6-2007 at 10:34

Quote:
Originally posted by YT2095
is that the Element itself or just certain compounds that are carcinogens ?


It makes the NIOSH list:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npotocca.html

"Arsenic and inorganic arsenic compounds"

YT2095 - 24-6-2007 at 10:37

well I did wonder because C and H are Not always "bad" whereas Benzene is, wondered is it was specific compounds.

so it would appear that`s it`s not the compounds themselves but rather the Metabolites.

edit: double posted with you, I`ll have a read of that, Thanks :)


[Edited on 24-6-2007 by YT2095]

Eclectic - 24-6-2007 at 11:20

It's more a matter of whether or not the element or compound, or any of it's metabolites, bolixes (throws a monkey wrench into) the delicate biochemical machinery of the living organism. And whether or not the organism has evolved a repair mechanism to undo the damage. And how effective it is. And how much damage was done. And if the damage happened in a critical area. And, and, and...

Re. cyanides, thiosulfates are a cyanide antidote, yes? So maybe Rasputin survived a massive cyanide poisoning because he ate lots and lots of onions and garlic? Which builds up thiosulfate reserves in the liver? Also chelates heavy metals.

dedalus - 24-6-2007 at 12:33

I once worked for a lab supply house (perhaps some of you dealt with us, or even me personally; Bryant Labs, Berkeley, CA) that asked for letters of intent for cyanide salts. That's because they had, at one point, sold a 100 g bottle of KCN to some psycho who poisoned his wife with it.

If you're just looking for a few grams to play with, get to know somebody who does silver electroplating. They use it a lot.

Please be careful. If you practice certain elementary precautions, you'll be fine. I used to shovel out 80 kg drums of NaCN. But, it's not a forgiving material at all, and it's a terrible way to go.

S.C. Wack - 24-6-2007 at 13:59

There are a few theories on Rasputin, i.e. neutralized by the food, stomach condition caused by alcoholism...such theorizing is a waste of time without unknown facts. It's funny how many stories there are of why he survived the cyanide, stated as absolute fact. Typical journalism.

Drunkguy - 24-6-2007 at 15:34

Heh, I went for an interview not long ago at an electroplating firm that were using cyanide in their labs. But since I never got the job I havent got any romantic stories to share. Pity really..

12AX7 - 24-6-2007 at 15:36

Eh, I saw a drum or two (plastic type drums) of sodium cyanide outside the plating department at work. And an empty keg, no-foolin keg labeled "nitric acid". I mean, I know it comes in kegs, but I'd at least expect it to be a different shape. It's so funny to see it in the same keg as beer. Don't tap that sucker!

Tim

dedalus - 25-6-2007 at 03:42

Those nitric kegs are stainless steel. They weigh a ton. No fun to deal with, there's a big threaded bung you have to unscrew. then pump the stuff out somehow. I'd use it for pH adjustments on a chromate dip, when I was working for a Zinc plating outfit.

YT2095 - 25-6-2007 at 03:45

Quote:
Originally posted by Eclectic

Re. cyanides, thiosulfates are a cyanide antidote, yes? So maybe Rasputin survived a massive cyanide poisoning because he ate lots and lots of onions and garlic? Which builds up thiosulfate reserves in the liver? Also chelates heavy metals.


Amyl/Alkyl Nitrite is also effective to some extent, working as a vasodilater.