Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Diethyl ether on pulic transport

largenumbergoeshere - 4-9-2018 at 04:28

I'd like to make some diethyl ether at home and use it at a friend's house in a grignrad reaction but the only way I can get there is a combination of bus and train. I've heard some scary things about ether like it ignighting only with the heat of a hotplate or its fairly wide range of explosive mixtures. The last thing I want to do is cause a fire on the train and get on the bad side of law enforcement.

If I were to put it in a teflon tape sealed plastic bottle and put that in a few zip lock bags would it still pose a considerable danger?

Further more, would I be able to carry other hazardous liquids like fuming nitric acid with this method?

Thankyou for reading.

j_sum1 - 4-9-2018 at 04:35

I wouldn't do it.

Maybe allow yourself some extra time and make it at your friend's place just before you need it. Ether is simple enough to synthesise.

largenumbergoeshere - 4-9-2018 at 04:45

That's true but theoretically it shouldn't pose much more of a threat than a bottle of vodka, if I'm careful, don't you think?

wildfyr - 4-9-2018 at 05:00

Tell that to the cops if you spill some and somebody freaks out.

DavidJR - 4-9-2018 at 05:03

As long as it's well packed and in small quantity (<500ml) then I wouldn't be too worried about doing that.

CobaltChloride - 4-9-2018 at 05:10

Please be careful with what plastic you use. The plastic might not be resistant to the ether and might break. I suggest using a PET water bottle because those resist diethyl ether.

Ubya - 4-9-2018 at 07:13

i once brought to a friend in university a bottle of toluene, i used public transportation, it was summer (35+°C here in Rome) and the cap started leaking, the smell of solvent i had around was very strong, everybody looked at me suspiciously, i'm never going to do it again.

be sure you use a bottle resistent to ether, and be sure the cap seals hermetically, if you smell of ether in the train could be a problem, i don't know where you leave but if it's still hot outside i think it would be a great idea to transport your ether chilled (to prevent pressure build up and leakage)

Herr Haber - 4-9-2018 at 07:49

If you're careful and follow the last 3 posters advice you should be allright.
Depending on where you are ether might have a bad or very bad reputation so I'd advise against being searched ;)

fusso - 4-9-2018 at 10:11

Wait till a cooler day,cool the bottle further with ice and put the whole bottle in a styrofoam box/reflective container, then carry it in a shopping trolley so that your body heat won't be transferred to the bottle.
(given that large objects are allowed on public transport)

Heptylene - 4-9-2018 at 10:26

Don't do it! Ether boils at 35 °C, which means that on a hot summer day (depending on where you live) your bottle will have 1 bar of pressure inside it. If it breaks inside a vehicle, there will be ether everywhere, and nowhere to escape the vapor.

Fuming nitric acid is even more out of the question. Imagine if someone gets some nitric acid on their skin! No way to wash it off, no baking soda to neutralize it!

If you are careful you should be able to do it without problem, but IF there is a problem its absolutely catastrophic.

JJay - 4-9-2018 at 10:39

I would suggest using something like a camping fuel bottle. I advise against having a law enforcement encounter while you are carrying bottles of ether; the officer might be chemophobic or something. Also, check your local laws and the policies of your transit authority.

Fuming nitric acid can't be stored in many types of plastic. PVC will resist it but not forever. You probably want to carry it in a shatterproof glass bottle that is coated with plastic, topped with a PTFE-lined cap.

While there are risks involved in carrying chemicals, if you take the proper precautions, the risks are dwarfed by the possibility of getting hit by a car or run over by a train. Use proper containers, wear your seatbelt, and don't sleep on the train tracks.

clearly_not_atara - 4-9-2018 at 12:30

I would definitely not advise packing a container of ether into your luggage for a long journey, as the ether boiling could definitely lead to a catastrophe as Heptylene suggests. But for a short trip under controlled circumstances you should be OK as long as you make sure nothing gets too warm. Avoid packing any metallic objects in the same bag as the ether, as "clinking" could create sparks. You should take every possible precaution to avoid leaks and then assume they will happen anyway.

Heptylene - 4-9-2018 at 13:14

@JJay Good suggestion on using a camping fuel can, those are probably built to resist some overpressure already, and they cannot shatter unlike glass. Plus the can serves to camouflage the ether as camping fuel which is a good thing if someone asks about what largenumbergoeshere is transporting.

DavidJR - 4-9-2018 at 14:24

Pack it how you'd expect it to be packed for shipping by a chemical supplier.

zed - 4-9-2018 at 16:26

I don't know where you are. In the U.S., you could just buy a few cans of Ether based "Quick Start" fluid, and take 'em over to your buddy's house. Problem solved.

Might work, right out of the can. Hexane and all. Really not very suspicious. "I'm helping my buddy with his car!"

Nitric Acid? Ummmm. Likely to be detected instantly by "Sniffer Dogs" at a train station, airport, or National Border.

In which case, you might have some explaining to do. Possibly, years of explaining.

Me? I'd just put it in the back of my pick-up and drive it over. Though not across an international border, of course; not wise.

[Edited on 5-9-2018 by zed]

JJay - 4-9-2018 at 18:07

Sniffer dogs can detect nitric acid? I never even considered that...

If you are actually stopped by the police for some reason, you should mention that you have a bottle of ether just like you'd mention that you were carrying a weapon. It shouldn't be an issue. The police will probably harass you if they find out you are carrying ether no matter how honest and forthright you are, but you're better off telling them than letting them discover it for themselves.

RogueRose - 4-9-2018 at 19:49

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Sniffer dogs can detect nitric acid? I never even considered that...

If you are actually stopped by the police for some reason, you should mention that you have a bottle of ether just like you'd mention that you were carrying a weapon. It shouldn't be an issue. The police will probably harass you if they find out you are carrying ether no matter how honest and forthright you are, but you're better off telling them than letting them discover it for themselves.



Another example of JJ trying to bend over backwards for law enforcement. If I didn't know better Iwould say he is affiliated. Every time there is an issue about this subject you chime in telling everyone to "show their hand" in every situation even when the compound isn't illegal, it's suspicions (your actions and the persons) to do this to LE.

Pack it well, make sure it is in a compatible container, put it on ice if you are concerned about the temp and take it with you. If LE stops you, who cares. If they search you, they have to have legitimate probable cause, which I'm assuming unless you are acting like an asshole, they don't. It will never get here, so don't worry, if it does, keep your mouth shut and ask for an attorney - don't ever talk to the police. If they arrest you and have no proof of drug manufacture or other illegal use, there is good possiblity for a lawsuit against them.

I'm sure JJ will chime in with some chemophobia and pro Law enforcement post and minute as he always does.

j_sum1 - 4-9-2018 at 20:53

Wow RR! It is amazing how often a question on safety revolves around to one about how to relate to LE.
There are, as always, a variety of approaches on this matter: depending on local laws, local policing practices, likely repercussions, prevailing culture wrt to law enforcement, personality and what else you have going on.

I myself am inclined to approach things with full disclsure as JJay has suggested. Where I live there is nothing to be gained and everything to lose by avoiding revealing information to the police. I think it is wise to avoid being critical with others if they adopt an approach that is different from mine.

On the safety issue, the approach to take is to think of the worst possible scenario. say, a bus crash and losing possession of the container. Would I be happy to leave several hundred mLs of ether in an unmarked and possibly damaged container for several hours in the temperatures that occur in an unmoving bus? Does not seem good to me. OTOH, if I had, as [url=https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=90581&goto=search&pid=533184]zed[/url suggested, a few cans of diesel engine starter – properly labelled and designed to handle pressure, I would probably be ok with that.
If I was transporting HNO3 i would pack it securely: amber bottle, two fully sealed thick plastic bags, oversize polystyrene packing that was moulded to hold a bottle of that size and shape and then sealed in a cardboard box – just the way that I would expect it if I ordered it. And i would not be at all worried about the police. I would have to be prepared for the possibility that the bus company refused to take it on board. After all, hazmat is there for a reason.

JJay - 4-9-2018 at 21:56

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Sniffer dogs can detect nitric acid? I never even considered that...

If you are actually stopped by the police for some reason, you should mention that you have a bottle of ether just like you'd mention that you were carrying a weapon. It shouldn't be an issue. The police will probably harass you if they find out you are carrying ether no matter how honest and forthright you are, but you're better off telling them than letting them discover it for themselves.



Another example of JJ trying to bend over backwards for law enforcement. If I didn't know better Iwould say he is affiliated. Every time there is an issue about this subject you chime in telling everyone to "show their hand" in every situation even when the compound isn't illegal, it's suspicions (your actions and the persons) to do this to LE.

Pack it well, make sure it is in a compatible container, put it on ice if you are concerned about the temp and take it with you. If LE stops you, who cares. If they search you, they have to have legitimate probable cause, which I'm assuming unless you are acting like an asshole, they don't. It will never get here, so don't worry, if it does, keep your mouth shut and ask for an attorney - don't ever talk to the police. If they arrest you and have no proof of drug manufacture or other illegal use, there is good possiblity for a lawsuit against them.

I'm sure JJ will chime in with some chemophobia and pro Law enforcement post and minute as he always does.


Umm... RogueRose, you seem to be carrying a grudge over my suggestion that a plan to buy listed chemicals anonymously wasn't necessarily legal. There is a lot of grey area over what is and what is not legal, but some things are black and white. A lot of intelligent and formerly very active chemists have disappeared from this board, without explanation, and I don't think they all accidentally sniffed too much hydrogen cyanide or found new hobbies.

In my area, the police use a standard questionnaire that involves asking if you have weapons and if there are any hazardous substances in the area. Not immediately disclosing that you have a weapon to a police officer is a felony. Lying to a police officer is a very serious misdemeanor. If you simply refuse to answer about whether you have any hazardous substances, they are going to check, and checking for a hazard only requires reasonable suspicion in many places, not probable cause. (For example: https://www.shouselaw.com/stop-frisk.html)

I generally advise that people avoid being stupid. For example, if you're a felon carrying a stolen gun and pass by a police officer, it might not be in your best interest to flip him the bird and announce that you have a gun while showing him your waistband. Rather, you should take your stolen gun to an attorney and ask for advice. :cool:

I'm a little surprised that I would be seen as pro law enforcement, but I see no advantage to arguing otherwise.





[Edited on 5-9-2018 by JJay]

nimgoldman - 5-9-2018 at 06:57

Don't use the bus! Yes the chance of an incident is small BUT if it happens, it's a disaster. So the risk is big because of that. Be aware that you put in danger not only yourself, but all the people around and threatening whole field of amateur chemistry by possibly making headlines. Would you be okay with a guy sitting next to you in bus carry - say - a bottle of nitroglycerine?

I would use a taxi and sit with the backpack on my legs, preferably telling the driver beforehand that I carry a lab chemical and glass.

I had some ether shipped to me via DHL - it was 2.5 L bottle sent via DHL and it was super hot part of the summer so I was scared something will happen along the way. The bottle was stored very well - wrapped in foil many times, then bubble foil, then cardboard, crumpled paper and more foam.

Ideally travel with as small bottle as possible. The bottle should be full and wrapped so it won't splash inside, break or crack easily and use a robust cap. Reagent bottles come with GL45 screw caps than can be tightened well.

DavidJR - 5-9-2018 at 11:36

Quote: Originally posted by nimgoldman  
Would you be okay with a guy sitting next to you in bus carry - say - a bottle of nitroglycerine?


For his angina, sure, I'd be okay with that.

symboom - 5-9-2018 at 12:16

Quote" threatening whole field of amateur chemistry by possibly making headlines"due to major accidents in the lab i feel like sone are walking on eggs shells due to the risk of unwanted attention. cause no one wants to be responsible for ruining it for everyone else due to amature making it in the news the bad way.

Although storing it in camping fuel might work if questioned
It will just be camping fuel or some automotive liquid for example storing it in another container for instance isopropanol has a smell too.

[Edited on 5-9-2018 by symboom]

unionised - 5-9-2018 at 12:38

What would the general view be about taking (much more volatile) dimethyl ether on public transport?

symboom - 5-9-2018 at 12:50

Unionised try setting up a poll to findout what others think collectively

[Edited on 5-9-2018 by symboom]

unionised - 5-9-2018 at 13:28

I could only set up a poll to find what people think of a set of pre-defined answers.
I want to ask a more open ended question.

What would the general view be about taking (much more volatile) dimethyl ether on public transport?

CobaltChloride - 5-9-2018 at 14:22

I don't understand how you'd transport it though, as you don't live in Siberia and it isn't even winter yet. :D

Jokes aside, if you use a metal container rated for the vapor pressure of dimethyl ether at more than the temperature in UK trains/buses/trams at this time of year, then I wouldn't have any problem with being on the same vehicle as you. If you use a solution of dimethyl ether in another solvent that doesn't start outgassing dimethyl ether even at temperatures just slightly higher than ambient, then I'd also have no problems with that.

unionised - 5-9-2018 at 22:23

Thanks for that.
Any other opinions?

DJF90 - 6-9-2018 at 00:20

How much, what type of transport, and what region? I'd say a train/tube in London would be quite different to a local bus route up north, but I'm sure you're aware of that anyway. Can you not drive/get a lift with it? How far are you intending on taking it.

At the end of the day, I'd rather not risk it, but thats just me. If its packed appropriately it should be no worse that a propane/butane lighter refill or can of deoderant/hairspray/other pressurised container.

Heptylene - 6-9-2018 at 04:53

@unionised Are you being sarcastic? I genuinely can't tell.

Assuming you aren't, diemthyl ether boils at -24°C, so it probably has a vapor pressure of several atmosphere at 20 °C. I would transport it in a gas cylinder designed for it. (Not some contraption involving ice and/or pipe fittings and a valve). So in a way such that I cannot be held accountable for an accidental failure of the container. Like a propane cylinder for a blowtorch.

mayko - 6-9-2018 at 10:56

*bikes past, a gallon of muriatic acid on each handlebar*

Panache - 18-10-2018 at 05:41

Get an uber

Edit--seriously some of the replies border on hysterical.

It's fine to take a small amount (<L) in any glass bottle. An empty wine bottle would suffice.

Why the fuck would you be searched?? You're not a Palestinanian travelling to Israel for work daily from Gaza (if you are it's unlikely you would have the internet anyway, but if you are perhaps don't travel with the ether).


[Edited on 18-10-2018 by Panache]

Amos - 18-10-2018 at 06:57

Honestly I'd totally do this. A glass bottle of ether upright in an opaque backpack, inside an air-conditioned bus on a day with pretty mild weather? I don't see what could happen, but you know your scenario better than I do. I hope you're not prone to dropping things. Maybe put it in some secondary container with an ice pack alongside if you're that worried.

unionised - 18-10-2018 at 13:18

Quote: Originally posted by Heptylene  
@unionised Are you being sarcastic? I genuinely can't tell.

Assuming you aren't, diemthyl ether boils at -24°C, so it probably has a vapor pressure of several atmosphere at 20 °C. I would transport it in a gas cylinder designed for it. (Not some contraption involving ice and/or pipe fittings and a valve). So in a way such that I cannot be held accountable for an accidental failure of the container. Like a propane cylinder for a blowtorch.

Well, people transport it on public transport every day.
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/268375047

So, why would someone worry greatly about the much less hazardous
diethyl ether?

Vomaturge - 18-10-2018 at 19:00

When I saw your first post in this thread about DME, unionised, I assumed you'd bring up this stuff.
Quote:
INGREDIENTS:Water (Aqua), Dimethyl Ether, SD Alcohol 40 B (Alcohol Denat), VA/Crotonates/Vinyl Neodecanoate Copolymer, Acrylates Crosspolymer, Amino Methyl Propanol, Sodium Benzoate, Cyclohexylamine, Triethyl Citrate, Cyclopentasiloxane, Fragrance (Parfum)

Sure, it's dissolved in water and a bit of alcohol, but once it leaves its pressure vessel, it acts rather dimethyl-ether-y.

[Edit]

Better yet, ask what people would think about taking 50L of a flammable poisonous solvent mix (involving toluene, heptane, xylene, and butane, among other nasties) on the bus. Not sitting between your legs in a glass bottle, mind you...

It all really depends on how well you have secured your HazMat from leaking/burning, and how well other passengers think you've secured it. Be careful with safety, and use discretion around other (probably chemophobic) passengers :D

[Edited on 20-10-2018 by Vomaturge]

Panache - 19-10-2018 at 19:57

If you're travelling in Toronto or that Chinese city whose name I forget most likely then the bus you are on is fuelled with dme.

Heptylene - 20-10-2018 at 14:49

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by Heptylene  
@unionised Are you being sarcastic? I genuinely can't tell.

Assuming you aren't, diemthyl ether boils at -24°C, so it probably has a vapor pressure of several atmosphere at 20 °C. I would transport it in a gas cylinder designed for it. (Not some contraption involving ice and/or pipe fittings and a valve). So in a way such that I cannot be held accountable for an accidental failure of the container. Like a propane cylinder for a blowtorch.

Well, people transport it on public transport every day.
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/268375047

So, why would someone worry greatly about the much less hazardous
diethyl ether?


Well its a commercial aerosol can, so there is no liability for whoever is carrying it if it breaks. What I was imagining was someone using a makeshift container to transport a liter of pure dimethyl ether, which could turn out really badly. (i.e. not a commercial cylinder intended for that purpose).

draculic acid69 - 26-11-2018 at 22:55

[edited] Obscenities removed. There was not much left.

draculic acid69, please do not do this again.

[Edited on 27-11-2018 by j_sum1]

draculic acid69 - 15-12-2018 at 21:30

Apologies let me reword it.there isn't as big an issue as your making out just put the ether in a coke bottle tighten the lid put it in a bag or backpack and catch your bus and then your train.its that simple coke bottles are pretty much leakproof and the only thing I've found that destroys them is sulfuric acid.don't worry about it as much as you are.