Sciencemadness Discussion Board

How Nobel actually discovered dynamite?

nagyepf - 20-9-2018 at 05:34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz_c4j8NcDI
This video is a little bit suspect to me.When the beaker of nitroglycerine drops to the floor shouldnt it explode even if there was hay or kiselguhr on the floor?
It takes a lot of time for nitro to get mixed with the phlegmatizer.

Deathunter88 - 20-9-2018 at 07:34

Quote: Originally posted by nagyepf  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz_c4j8NcDI
This video is a little bit suspect to me.When the beaker of nitroglycerine drops to the floor shouldnt it explode even if there was hay or kiselguhr on the floor?
It takes a lot of time for nitro to get mixed with the phlegmatizer.


Many of these types of documentaries exaggerate the facts. They keep saying things like "one small mistake and it's all going to blow up" or "everything hangs in the balance" to increase the tension and therefore improve viewer retention.

Fulmen - 20-9-2018 at 09:50

Whenever someone starts with "according to legend" you can safely ignore everything that comes after.

DraconicAcid - 20-9-2018 at 10:19

And clearly he didn't "discover" dynamite; he *invented* it.

GrayGhost- - 20-9-2018 at 15:59

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascanio_Sobrero

Poppy - 20-9-2018 at 20:17

Well he probably discovered it when trying to detonate it with black powder or mixing it with black powder to see if it improved any properties. I did it once and what I discovered is that nitro does not explode when mixed in black powder, it gives off a very white offuscating flare but consumes itself burning simply instead of detonating. But, it detonates when heated in a plate over a burner inside your house's barbecue place. It turns transparent (it was milky white) then detonates with such a violence much like a gunshot in your ears. Just 5mL caused the whole flyashes sticked into it for years to crumble down, caused the plare to taggle spieally like in a cartoon really... but it does not explide with black powder.

greenlight - 20-9-2018 at 23:12

I have heard of this accidental discovery by dropping some NG as well. There is no way to tell how much truth there is to. I would think a more scientific and plausible way would have been mixing NG with small amounts of other absorbent material and documenting results. This would sound more like the truth, an accident just makes it sound more exciting for the viewers.

The NG does have to be mixed properly with the absorbent material and it is usually dissolved in a solvent like acetone to desensitize it, blended with the absorbent material, and then the solvent evaporated.

I have read of a case (can't remember exact details) where a beaker of nitroglycerin was knocked off a lab table and did detonate resulting in 2 dead. I suppose a lot of factors come into play though; acidity content of NG, presence of air bubbles in NG, age of sample, ambient temperature, etc...

nagyepf - 21-9-2018 at 06:19

Oh another question: I heard a myth that large quantities of nitroglycerin can self detonate under its own weight.
Is that true?How is dynamite actually made?In a factory they probably make hundres of kilograms of dynamite.Mixing that much nitro would be a pretty stessful job. Is the Kieselguhr added to nitric/sulfuric acid before adding the glycerine,so as nitroglycerine forms it is absorbed immediately in the Kieselguhr?

greenlight - 21-9-2018 at 09:37

I am sure it detonating under just it's own weight is a myth for sure, never heard of anything like that happening. Especially considering long ago, it was stored in large volumes in some pretty big containers where the weight of the NG on top would have been a lot.

I can't find much relevant information on production plants nowadays. But I did find the attached pic below of a MEISSNER nitrator for NG manufacture that looks quite recent with some information about the equipment used. The page said:

"MEISSNER injector plants are characterized by on-line mixing of the acids (mixed acid store not necessary), small production quantities in the nitration cycle, dynamic separation of the product from the spent acid, and automatic discharging in case of power outage or shutdown."

Screenshot_20180922-014114_Gallery.jpg - 449kB

The absorbent material is not added during the nitration ever. Kieselghur is not used anymore, starch, wood dust, or flour and some other things I can't remember are used in place with an antacid (CaCO3, etc...) as well.

Seems they still nitrate in a reactor, dump into water, separate NG and neutralize and dry it. Not too much has changed except the equipment is better.

From the limited info I can find at the moment, it seems the NG is poured in small batches sizes of the absorbent material and blended by a machine with soft paddles similar to a cake mixer where the paddles don't touch the sides of the vessel so friction is minimized.
Maybe it is dropped in while the mix is being slowly blended, or it is allowed to soak in for a while before mixing is started, I am unsure


[Edited on 21-9-2018 by greenlight]



[Edited on 21-9-2018 by greenlight]

nagyepf - 21-9-2018 at 09:59

Quote: Originally posted by greenlight  
I am sure it detonating under just it's own weight is a myth for sure, never heard of anything like that happening. Especially considering long ago, it was stored in large volumes in some pretty big containers where the weight of the NG on top would have been a lot.

I can't find much relevant information on production plants nowadays. But I did find the attached pic below of a MEISSNER nitrator for NG manufacture that looks quite recent with some information about the equipment used. The page said:

"MEISSNER injector plants are characterized by on-line mixing of the acids (mixed acid store not necessary), small production quantities in the nitration cycle, dynamic separation of the product from the spent acid, and automatic discharging in case of power outage or shutdown."



The absorbent material is not added during the nitration ever. Kieselghur is not used anymore, starch, wood dust, or flour and some other things I can't remember are used in place with an antacid (CaCO3, etc...) as well.

Seems they still nitrate in a reactor, dump into water, separate NG and neutralize and dry it. Not too much has changed except the equipment is better.

From the limited info I can find at the moment, it seems the NG is poured in small batches sizes of the absorbent material and blended by a machine with soft paddles similar to a cake mixer where the paddles don't touch the sides of the vessel so friction is minimized.
Maybe it is dropped in while the mix is being slowly blended, or it is allowed to soak in for a while before mixing is started, I am unsure


[Edited on 21-9-2018 by greenlight]



[Edited on 21-9-2018 by greenlight]


Thanks for the information.I have another question.Is it possible to blow up dynamite without a blasting cap?In old movies thet just put a fuse in the dynamite,ignite the fuse and throw it.Would that work in reality?Would the dynamite explode or wouldnt even burn?And what about pure nitro?I know that if its exposed to flame it will silently ignite instead detonation.But what if we used a fuse or sparkler which is much hotter than a flame?

markx - 21-9-2018 at 17:09

Quote: Originally posted by nagyepf  


Thanks for the information.I have another question.Is it possible to blow up dynamite without a blasting cap?In old movies thet just put a fuse in the dynamite,ignite the fuse and throw it.Would that work in reality?Would the dynamite explode or wouldnt even burn?And what about pure nitro?I know that if its exposed to flame it will silently ignite instead detonation.But what if we used a fuse or sparkler which is much hotter than a flame?



Without a cap....no, not really, not reliably. The rest of methods is subject to the "law of the concervation of evil". Can happen occasionally when not expected, but basically never when expected or intended,


[Edited on 22-9-2018 by markx]

nagyepf - 21-9-2018 at 21:22

Quote: Originally posted by markx  
Quote: Originally posted by nagyepf  


Thanks for the information.I have another question.Is it possible to blow up dynamite without a blasting cap?In old movies thet just put a fuse in the dynamite,ignite the fuse and throw it.Would that work in reality?Would the dynamite explode or wouldnt even burn?And what about pure nitro?I know that if its exposed to flame it will silently ignite instead detonation.But what if we used a fuse or sparkler which is much hotter than a flame?



Without a cap....no, not really, not reliably. The rest of methods is subject to the "law of the concervation of evil". Can happen occasionally when not expected, but basically never when expected or intended,


[Edited on 22-9-2018 by markx]


But what would happen if we used a fuse without blasting cap?Would it even ignite?And if it ignited would it burn slowly or quickly?

Herr Haber - 24-9-2018 at 02:59

It would probably not even burn.

Nagyepf, there's a fantastic library on this forum with TONS of knowledge. It's probably a good idea to start there.
I'm not overly fond of the idea of someone asking questions about HE whilst not understanding what a blasting cap is.
There's also youtube... There are a couple of vids by the Royal Institution I hightly recommend you.

nagyepf - 24-9-2018 at 05:17

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
It would probably not even burn.

Nagyepf, there's a fantastic library on this forum with TONS of knowledge. It's probably a good idea to start there.
I'm not overly fond of the idea of someone asking questions about HE whilst not understanding what a blasting cap is.
There's also youtube... There are a couple of vids by the Royal Institution I hightly recommend you.


I understand what a blasting cap is used for.But in old movies people exploded dynamite just witch a piece of black powder fuse.
I just was curious that are all those movies fake?

Ubya - 24-9-2018 at 06:01

Quote: Originally posted by nagyepf  
Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
It would probably not even burn.

Nagyepf, there's a fantastic library on this forum with TONS of knowledge. It's probably a good idea to start there.
I'm not overly fond of the idea of someone asking questions about HE whilst not understanding what a blasting cap is.
There's also youtube... There are a couple of vids by the Royal Institution I hightly recommend you.


I understand what a blasting cap is used for.But in old movies people exploded dynamite just witch a piece of black powder fuse.
I just was curious that are all those movies fake?


maybe the fuse was connected to a blasting cap inside the dynamite cylinder?

nagyepf - 24-9-2018 at 06:47

Quote: Originally posted by Ubya  
Quote: Originally posted by nagyepf  
Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
It would probably not even burn.

Nagyepf, there's a fantastic library on this forum with TONS of knowledge. It's probably a good idea to start there.
I'm not overly fond of the idea of someone asking questions about HE whilst not understanding what a blasting cap is.
There's also youtube... There are a couple of vids by the Royal Institution I hightly recommend you.


I understand what a blasting cap is used for.But in old movies people exploded dynamite just witch a piece of black powder fuse.
I just was curious that are all those movies fake?


maybe the fuse was connected to a blasting cap inside the dynamite cylinder?

Well that would be possible. Sciencemadness wiki says that dynamite burns if ignited but can explode if the flame is too hot.And a burning fuse or a sparkler is really hot.I tried starting a campfire by wrapping wood in homemade black powder fuse.and that method worked.And some sparklers burn so hot that they can melt zinc metal.
And this is a very interesting video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbtDYnTAQgM

[Edited on 02-09-2017 by nagyepf]

markx - 24-9-2018 at 13:20

What one can see in movies is not even remotely transferable to reality. A fuse stuck into basically any secondary explosive shall not cause a detonation . Not even the "most sensitive ones" shall produce a violent reaction.

For example it was a known practice by soviet army soldiers to burn bricks of TNT in a funace in shortage of firewood to keep warm in the far north. Well not exactly a shortage of firewood, but rather the "unwillingness to go out into the cold" to get some (also known as "pohuism") that led them to burn what was available from the materials at hand.

Not that I would advise anyone to copy such type of activities.....always keep in mind the "law of the concervation of evil"!! The fact that a thousand intended experiments have failed to cause a detonation is no cause to be certain that an unintentional spark will not be able to prove all of the previous experience wrong....

[Edited on 24-9-2018 by markx]

Herr Haber - 25-9-2018 at 03:06

Quote: Originally posted by nagyepf  
Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
It would probably not even burn.

Nagyepf, there's a fantastic library on this forum with TONS of knowledge. It's probably a good idea to start there.
I'm not overly fond of the idea of someone asking questions about HE whilst not understanding what a blasting cap is.
There's also youtube... There are a couple of vids by the Royal Institution I hightly recommend you.


I understand what a blasting cap is used for.But in old movies people exploded dynamite just witch a piece of black powder fuse.
I just was curious that are all those movies fake?


Well then, if you understand you need the shock of a blasting cap then you understand that these movies are oversimplifications made for the general public.

Again, I highly recommend READING. Urbanski's the best read out there on this subject. You will learn what happens to NG if you do this or that, if it's frozen, impure, mixed with other substances and so on.
Basically you'd learn everything you are wondering AND MORE !
An awful lot MORE than you'd have expected.
And then, you will understand so much more !!!
Also, if you care at all about history, Urbanski gives you a perspective that no other authors have.

On the topic of detonators and modern HE's:
That amazing C4 always blows up in movies. In real life, things dont always go as smoothly. Sometimes, the plastic explosive just doesnt detonate and depending on the temperature it can be as funny as to put a firecracker in dog shit.

Herr Haber - 25-9-2018 at 03:10

@Marks: Gi's in Nam used C4 to heat their rations.
So did my father in Africa.

Both TNT and the RDX in the C4 are energetics after all :)

Apparently they knew breathing the fumes was BAD !

nagyepf - 25-9-2018 at 07:35

Quote: Originally posted by markx  
.

For example it was a known practice by soviet army soldiers to burn bricks of TNT in a funace in shortage of firewood to keep warm in the far north. Well not exactly a shortage of firewood, but rather the "unwillingness to go out into the cold" to get some (also known as "pohuism") that led them to burn what was available from the materials at hand.

Not that I would advise anyone to copy such type of activities.....always keep in mind the "law of the concervation of evil"!! The fact that a thousand intended experiments have failed to cause a detonation is no cause to be certain that an unintentional spark will not be able to prove all of the previous experience wrong....

[Edited on 24-9-2018 by markx]


Well Russians are notoriously known to be brave.Theres a good Russian channel on youtube called KREOSAN.They also have an English channel.
https://www.youtube.com/user/kreosan
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClUZos7yKYtrmr0-azaD8pw

SWIM - 25-9-2018 at 09:59

Nobel's plant supposedly packed their cases of nitro in Kieselguhr for shipping.

Sometimes the nitro containers would leak during transport.

I have occasionally wondered if this situation could have led to the discovery, as it would have generated lumps of dynamite-like material and somebody may have noticed its physical properties.

When you see dynamite with just a fuse in it in old movies, they're leaving out the part where they put the fuse in by digging a hole in the end of the dynamite, crimping a primer on the end of the fuse (resist the urge to crimp with your teeth; that's what the crimping tool is for) and shoving the fuse with a primer crimped on the end into the dynamite.

It's like when you watch the movie Army Of Darkness, and notice that Ash doesn't seem to reload his shotgun too often; Showing that stuff slows the action up.

I recall somebody insisting that Primacord can set dynamite off if you use it right, but I forget the details and have no idea if he wasn't just some nutcase.

Herr Haber - 26-9-2018 at 03:43

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM  


It's like when you watch the movie Army Of Darkness, and notice that Ash doesn't seem to reload his shotgun too often; Showing that stuff slows the action up.

I recall somebody insisting that Primacord can set dynamite off if you use it right, but I forget the details and have no idea if he wasn't just some nutcase.



You almost killed me with Army of Darkness :)
John Wayne movies also come to mind. Most of the time you can fire 20 shots with a six shot.

What would be wrong with Primacord setting off dynamite ?
Primacord is Bickford's detonating cord. If it can set off C4 and TNT it certainly can set off dynamite.

SWIM - 26-9-2018 at 18:48

I know little about such things,

The source was a rather 'colorful' fellow who also claimed to eat C-4 to catch a buzz, so I wasn't too sure he should be taken seriously.

I've never messed around with anything that would need a primer.
With my luck, I figure it's best to avoid explosives.

Twospoons - 26-9-2018 at 19:33

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM  

I've never messed around with anything that would need a primer.
With my luck, I figure it's best to avoid explosives.


I'm with you on this. Some things are just not worth messing about with.

Endo - 27-9-2018 at 05:44

We used to shoot dynamite with rifles to set it off. Depending on exactly which dynamite you are dealing with a shot from a .22 cal rifle is iffy. Pretty much anything higher velocity will do the job. Sitting dynamite against a dead tree, on the ice, or in an abandoned appliance could be very exciting and we considered dynamite to be a great reactive target.

Waffles SS - 27-9-2018 at 05:55

The story of Dynamite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3COSL_cIoc

nagyepf - 27-9-2018 at 10:43

Quote: Originally posted by Endo  
We used to shoot dynamite with rifles to set it off. Depending on exactly which dynamite you are dealing with a shot from a .22 cal rifle is iffy. Pretty much anything higher velocity will do the job. Sitting dynamite against a dead tree, on the ice, or in an abandoned appliance could be very exciting and we considered dynamite to be a great reactive target.

And can you tell me how did you get dynamite?Do you have a license or some of your friends work in a mine or quarry?

phlogiston - 27-9-2018 at 14:53

The story I've heard was that nitroglycerine used to be transported in containers set in loos-packed wood dust or diatomaceous earth to absorb shocks, and one day Noble noticed that nitroglycerin leaking from a crate was absorbed by the diatomaceous earth, and upon further testing he found that that made it far less less shock-sensitive.
It seems plausible to me, but we'll probably never now what really happened.