Mr. Wizard
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possible racing fuel?
It is well known, noitromethane, nitrous oxide, and methanol are all used to get more power from an internal combustion engine. What would be the
effects of dissolving NH4NO3 in methanol and using it as a fuel? You would get the high charge cooling effect and high anti-knock octane from the
methanol, and maybe the added oxygen and energy from the AN. There shouldn't be any solids from the dissolved AN 'if' it reacts
completely upon ignition.
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vulture
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First of all you'd get excessive NOx formation which could damage your engine and/or the exhaust air control management.
Precipitation in unwanted spots could also be a severe problem, fuel pump for example.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Esplosivo
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Ammonium Nitrate is greatly sensitized by nitromethane. This makes the mixture high unstable, and inadaquate for storage.
Because of the Ammonium nitrate, if it decomposed expolsively (as is most probable for complete decomposition to occur and leave no solid residues),
the mixture would probably not have a high octane rating.
If the ammonium nitrate does decompose, explosively or not, it will release oxidising agents, such as N20 and O2. This is probably also unfeasable
since the nitromethane is already a very good fuel as far as I know, and does not require any extra oxygen. This is why it is usually mixed with
gasoline in racing cars.
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Esplosivo
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Another dangerous property of such a mixture:
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May detonate if sensitized by amines, alkalies, strong acids, high temperatures or adiabatic compression.
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You wouldn't want it to detonate during ignition would you?  just kidding.
One could try reducing the amount of fuel injected, but I am not sure of it. Maybe some expert of internal combustion engines can give us some
background.
Check this out on the MSDS:
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/NI/nitromethane.html
[Edited on 18-3-2004 by Esplosivo]
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vulture
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You are both confusing things.
He was talking about using ammoniumnitrate dissolved in methanol not nitromethane.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Esplosivo
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Yes sorry, now I've noticed my mistake. Well methanol is quite volatile (bpt = 65 deg. Celcius). If the fuel mixture is sprayed for combustion,
the finely divided solution would be quite energetic I suppose. The ammonium nitrate would probably not decompose explosively and will break down
releasing N20 and residues. As vulture said the residues will surely damage the system.
If the residue is eliminated in some form or other the mixture would be highly energetic, since highly flammable methanol burns with N2O which
'donates' Oxygen for combustion. N2O is also used in race cars as a booster.
Well the only thing that concerns me about this mixture is that a high oxidising agent is pre-mixed with a highly flammable substance. Just immagine
the car in case of an accident.
Again sorry for the confusion.
[Edited on 18-3-2004 by Esplosivo]
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Turel
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Actually
I have seen this done before. The alcohol used was ethanol, though, and the solvation was only around 2% w/w.
Even this small amount of ammonium nitrate produced measurable increases in dyno results. The main issue was that at low rpms the mixture burns
great,but at rpms over around 5500rpm, the combination of NH4NO3 and EtOH burns too slow, and a lot of power is lost from unburnt fuel emissions.
There was no noticeable rise in NOx emissions, due to the alcohol. This is common. Alcohol burns car too 'cold' to promote NOx emissions in
any high concentration.
I was also very curious about this at one time, but the truth of the matter is that the benefits are limited at best, and application dictates
usefulness. Racing applications prohibit the use of such exotic fuels, and NH4NO3 is far too 'dangerous' and expensive for everyday use.
But as for pure numbers, yes NH4NO3 will yield more power, and does not leave any harmful residue whatsoever. You can even burn a small amount of
NaNO3 with no noticeable damage to the engine. Note that no longterm testing was done for this, though. Remember that lead tetraethyl was once used as
an anti-knock agent and lubrication agent.
-T
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vulture
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Remember that lead tetraethyl was once used as an anti-knock agent and lubrication agent.
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True, but this would be reduced to lead which is quite volatile under combustion situations.
Ammoniumnitrate expensive??
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Turel
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Expensive
Yes, don't look at it from a personal viewpoint. Think about the cost of making thousands of metric tons of it a month, and the processes of
putting it into gasoline mixtures specially fabricated for it.
For systems running on methanol, it is not cost inhibitive, but racing regulations (here in the USA) prevent the use of non-sanctioned fuels.
Most of the lead is retained in the combustion chamber and valve system. It was used to fill microscopic abrasions and lightly coat friction exposed
surfaces so as to act as a lubricant.
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vulture
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Yes, but lead does not form any corrosive or abrasive compounds. Sodiumoxide in your engine is a whole different thing.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Mr. Wizard
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I was surprised someone had actually used the NH4NO3 in methanol as fuel. Thanks for the feedback. The information about it being more useful at low
RPM is interesting. I'm not in any hurry to check it out myself, as it would most likely cause problems with the die cast (zinc alloy)
carburetors. Maybe I'll try a gallon or two someday ;-) When the racers use nitrous oxide injectors they have to add more fuel to keep the
mixture from burning a hole in the pistons, as it would burn too lean. Methanol is often used for this added fuel. Since NH4NO3 breaks down, in some
situations, to form N2O , and other gasses, it could be added with the fuel.
Turel mentioned he had seen this done. Do you have any more information on it?
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Turel
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I know this
vulture, regardless of theory, I have *seen* the use of sodium nitrate suspension burned in an engine with no negative results.
Mr. Wizard, yes I should be able to locate some more information. I will get back to you and post it.
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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Has anyone ever made an engine in which a solid could be injected? For example NitroCellulose. NC is certainly one of the best propellants used in
rockets & firearms. What if there were a way for a given ammount to be injected? You'd get horrable milage and this could never be used for
common cars but for races...
BTW: Just for a humorous segment to this thread, I once tried adding some NG into my minibike gass for alittle extra rubber burning, neighbor
awakening, loud as hell power. 
[Edited on 21-3-2004 by IgnorantlyIntelligent]
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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Esplosivo
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If NC should be injected in an engine I think it would be better to dissolve it in acetone. Solid fuels might prove difficult to be injected in any
way into an ignition chamber. NC dissolved in acetone could be sprayed and ignited, though it is quite gel-like.
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Mr. Wizard
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Even firing NC in a gun barrel causes considerable fouling and left over powder residue. I would be concerned the valve guides would become coated
with a varnish residue and lock up when you shut the engine off. It only takes a little bit to do this. I have had engines do this to me. I run a
dual fuel (propane / gasoline) truck. If the gasoline gets old and starts smelling like paint it will lock up the valve guides and GLUE them to the
heads. I always carried some gasoline and sometimes let it get old. I know this was talking about NC, but the gummy varnish like nature of NC makes me
think of my previous problems with sticking valves. It doesn't happen while it's hot, but after you shut the engine off, and it cools down.
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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No, NC burns with almost no residue. Smokeless gunpowder contain not only NC but burn rate reducing agents that burn somewhat dirty.
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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