Oxydro
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1st major chem hunt
Today I went out specifically for chemicals... first time I dedicated a trip to it.
First I visited Walmart, I was disappointed with their selection; evidently they are too concerned with liability and such. They seem to feel that we
should tell them what we want to do, and they should pick out the product to do it... not good for me !
I did pick up some perlite ( 9L that I'm going to use in the lining of a furnace).... also, some plaster of paris (2kg) and some MgSO4 (epsom
salts, 2kg).
Then I headed across the street to Central Home Hardware, a much happier place. They cater to the typical docile consumer, the do-it-yourselfer, and
the pros. So they have the "here, do it like this and you won't hurt anything" supplies, as well as the serious stuff.
Here I got a good supply of stuff:
1lb trisodium phosphate
1l clearline drain opener (sulphuric acid purity unknown -pink is a bad sign!)
2lb drainout crystal (sodium hydroxide, purity unknown)
400g mothballs (naphalene. I don't know why I got it. What can I use it for?)
2lb root clear (copper sulphate pentahydrate)
5lb chlorine pellets (70% calcium hypochlorite)
3lb castable refractory cement (again for my furnace)
Then there are the things I passed up. 5 pounds of potassium permanganate -- I wanted it but it was $40. Acetone, methanol -- have them already.
Naptha -- no need so far. Phosphoric acid -- not sure of purity and I don't need it yet. Hydrochloric acid -- have it.... plenty that I'm
forgetting I'm sure.
Central (it's a big chain, at least in Atlantic Canada, don't know how far west it goes) seems to be a treasurehouse. Also a money trap --
it parted me with 70CAD that I needed for bills .
Best part -- lady at the cash says "Got quite the project going do you?"... No suspicion at all. "A few," I answered, " I
think I might bill the landlord for this lot!".... I was paranoid that they might not be too happy with an 18year old buying that collection but
no worries I doubt she even knew what she sold me.
Oh yeah... what exactly is "Sodium hydrochloric acid?" -- sole ingredient on toilet bowl cleaner I saw.
"Our interest's on the dangerous side of things" -- Browning
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Magpie
lab constructor
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Nice going Oxyhydro.  Hunting for OTC's is my 2nd favorite indoor sport.
It's even more fun than winning glassware on Ebay.
My goal is to ferret out all possible useful OTC's within easy driving distance. I get the impressioin there are some good OTCs in Canada (like
nitric acid) that I can't find locally here in the US. There's quite a few that you can buy over the internet but that is not near as much
fun as finding it at your local Safeway or Wally Mart.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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garage chemist
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Be sure to get some TCCA from the pool products. It's really useful, especially for making enormous amounts of chlorine.
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Oxydro
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Didn't see it -- I didn't look everywhere as I was already overbudget. For that matter, the gas to get there was overbudget, before I bought
anything.
I also want CaCl (is de-icing salt pure CaCl, or is it part other chlorides? bad time of year for that anyway, 'less I can get it on clearance).
I can get that as a dessicant for basements and such, can't I?
BTW, I also have sulphur powder (drugstore, for treating acne, which I have), ammonium nitrate (from cold packs), linseed oil (to use for treating
graphite, I plan), sulfamic acid, boric acid, phenolphalien, methyl orange, sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, sodium hypochlorite 5.25%.. I'm
sure I'm forgetting some. I don't have much in the way of labware though so thats coming next.
"Our interest's on the dangerous side of things" -- Browning
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evil_lurker
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Here in the US it sucks, its VERY hard to find decent chems OTC.
Everything in Wally World is practically useless.
However Ace Hardware carrys a few things that might be useful to the home chemist.
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Pyridinium
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Shop goods
| Quote: | Originally posted by Oxydro
They seem to feel that we should tell them what we want to do, and they should pick out the product to do it |
I dislike when that happens. Places that cater to the serious hobbyist or do-it-yourself person (for anything, not just chemistry) are so rare these
days. I once made the mistake of telling a "big box" home-improvement-warehouse-store salesperson what I needed some PVC sheets for
(dielectric for Tesla Coil capacitors) and here I had that person trying to tell me to "be careful" (apprehensively I might add)... when
from talking to them it seems they'd barely be able to operate a TV remote control...*sigh*.
There was a very good hardware store about 10 years back which actually carried 5 lb buckets of sodium silicate solution (water glass) for various
uses. The stuff is great: adhesive, sealer, 'crystal garden' grower, all kinds of cool things...even good for re-gritting worn sandpaper
belts with loose grit!
I wish it were available at places like Wal Mart, but they've become "bubble pack city" like nearly everywhere else.
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Pyridinium
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Oxydro
I also want CaCl (is de-icing salt pure CaCl, or is it part other chlorides? bad time of year for that anyway, 'less I can get it on clearance).
I can get that as a dessicant for basements and such, can't I?
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There used to be something called Humi-Dri available in small tubs of calcium chloride pellets (CaCl2), which I think was reasonably pure. I went to
one of the big-box department stores (wally world) and asked for this and you already know the answer...
I wish I'd saved the Humi-Dri from years ago. It became its own saturated solution in the tub after maybe 3 months in the barn, but I
could've re-evaporated it and dried it in the oven.
If you want to try de-icing salts for purity, try the melting point, OR: dissolve some in distilled water and grow some crystals on a microscope
slide... look at these in the microscope and see if there's more than one variety / crystal system. Only problem there is, I think all the
alkali halides are cubic.
Another thing is, CaCl2 is more soluble in acetone than is NaCl, KCl (I think, going from memory here).
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The_Davster
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Magpie, you have heard that there is OTC nitric in Canada? As what? Well my nitric acid is almost OTC its from a store that caters to people who work
with rocks.....ah lapidary thats the word...anyway unfortunatly they sell it at a high price(they buy from fischer and resell), but the advantage is
it is usually anonymous, sometimes they ask your name and adress and put it into their system, nothing incredibly serious. It is quite funny though,
I went with my mother there while I was young for 500mL nitric, they took my information. Then years later I went with my friend, so they would get
his name instead of mine as I had got a large ammount of stuff recently and he got 2.5L 98% sulfuric and they did not even ask his name, and he was
teenage as well.
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12AX7
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Ice melter always says on it what it is... though not how much of it. Usually anything from cheap NaCl to a mixture with KCl, CaCl2 and MgCl2 (and
often urea and other stuff).
Speaking of Ace, anyone know what the stump killer is? (I forget what brand, said it dissolves the lignin.) It's colorless, so might be KNO3?
Doesn't say on the bottle. Didn't bother buying it either...
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Magpie
lab constructor
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Garage Chemist, thanks for the tip on TCCA. I haven't needed Cl2 yet but I know that day will come.
IIRC it was Quince that was saying he was getting nitric acid at a chain hardware store in Canada.
I've checked several local pharmacys for the ammonium nitrate cold packs but none carry it. They've all heard of them, however. What does
this imply? 
I bought some really nice CaCl2 at a pool supplier. Comes in prill balls like BB's. I believe its used to increase Ca++ hardness. This should
be perfect for drying organics and keeping a moisture free atmosphere for certain reactions like a Grignard.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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HNO3
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Believe it or not, Walmart carries AN containing coldpaks. The ingredients aren't labelled, so you may have to buy several and test for ammonia
by adding an aqeous base.
\"In the beginning, God...\" Wait a minute, God doesn\'t exist!!!!!!!!!! \"OK, in the beginning, ummm, hydrogen...\" Wait a minute, what about the
laws of thermodynamics? \"OK, in the beginning, ummm.....UMMMMM, what\'s left to choose from?
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garage chemist
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Urea with NaOH gives ammonia, too, because urea is the isomer of ammonium cyanate.
To distinguish between urea and AN, simply heat it. If the fumes smell like ammonia very much, it is most likely urea. If the fumes have a different
odor (kinda sharp) it is AN.
If it is urea, don't throw it away, it is still useful.
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Oxydro
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Non-chain drugstores are usually better for AN coldpacks in my experience. The ones I get are called "INSTA-FREEZE cold pack" and at the
bottom it says, "Contents: ammonium nitrate fertilizer crystals, NA-2072 and water"
"Our interest's on the dangerous side of things" -- Browning
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JohnWW
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The naphthalene mothballs could be nitrated to make explosive nitro-compounds with a HNO3/H2SO4 misture, and sulfonated using H2SO4 alone. However,
some mothballs are in fact chlorinated hydrocarbons
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mrjeffy321
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Hello,
I was wondering if anyone knew if KNO3 stump remover was usually very pure? or if it needs to be purified to be of any use.
The stuff I bought is "Green Light" brand, KNO3 stump remover, but it doesnt list a purity on the bottle. When I try to use it, for example
mixing it with sugar and burning it, it is a little hard to light by itself and produces alot of stinky white smoke. is this normal for KNO3, or is
it because the stuff isnt very pure?
Also, I have some 90% sulfur powder I was using for a few other projects (like black powder), does anyone know if it being only 90% will greatly
effect its preformance, is it worth going out and getting the much higher purity stuff (98%)?
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12AX7
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Eh, should be easy enough to clean depending on what else is in the stump remover. Prepare a concentrated solution in boiling water, filter if
necessary, stick it in the freezer and wash crystals with ice water.
Dunno about sulfur, might be worth melting and filtering that too. (Hmm, that'll need something better than paper towel, won't it!  ) I can't imagine it'd be a problem if the impurities burn off (aka
organics), but if not, might be unwanted ash content..
Tim
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mrjeffy321
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Thanks for you reply,
I have tried purifying the KNO3 by making a saturated soltion of boiling water and then cooling it off anf filtering what percipitates, but for some
reason, that only made it worse? Maybe that was just a fluke and I didnt something wrong. But can anyone with experience with known reasonably pure
KNO3 testify on how it burns, as compared to something else (for example KClO3)?
I dont really know what the impurities in the sulfur might be. Do you think they are water soluble? because sulfur isnt, therefore I could just wash
the sulfur in water, and dissolve all the impurities away, but I doubt I am that lucky. Anyone know what the other 10% of the sulfur is?
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garage chemist
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The impurities in the sulfur are clay. Therefore not water soluble.
Look at this thread on how to purify your sulfur:
https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3902
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mrjeffy321
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Wow, that is perfect, thanks
any idea on how pure you got your stuff?
[Edited on 11-6-2005 by mrjeffy321]
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garage chemist
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I didn't try to purify the 90% sulfur, I have enough pure sulfur for all my experiments.
The problem with the toluene method is that you have to filter it fast enough while hot or the crystallizing sulfur will clog your filter.
If the clay isn't too fine, you could try to insulate the beaker with rockwool and let it settle and decant the still hot sulfur solution.
Thoroughly dry your sulfur crystals in the sun or oven, toluene evaporates even slower than water.
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unionised
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Oven- containing toluene vapour, air and a spark from a thermostat.
Cylinder of internal combustion engine- containing petrol vapour, air and a spark from a spark plug.
Compare and contrast.
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garage chemist
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When the fan in the oven is running and the door is left open a bit, the vapors should be rapidly diluted to a safe level.
Don't put the sulfur into the oven when it's still really wet with toluene, of course. Pre- dry it in the sun and when it appears mostly
dry, put it in the oven to remove the last bit of toluene.
[Edited on 12-6-2005 by garage chemist]
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mrjeffy321
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I feel kind of guilt sidetracking someone else's thread like this, I almost need to start my own.
I was reading up on this toluene stuff and it seems very dangerous. Causing brain damage.. extreamly flammable, ...
or is this just a bit of an exageration to try to get people to be careful with the stuff?
Can anyone recomend a brand of produce that I can get the toluene out of? and/or a store that sells that produce? I went down to the paint sections
of my local home improvment stores, and the best I could come up with is laquor thinner that had it listed about 3 or 4 items down on the contents
list, which means that it couldnt be all that pure.
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Oxydro
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I don't think toluene will cause brain damage unless you spend your time huffing it, or work with large amounts daily for years.
"Our interest's on the dangerous side of things" -- Browning
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unionised
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To a reasonable approximation toluene is about as flammable and toxic as petrol (gasoline). You wouldn't normally wash things with petrol indoors
and, having washed them with petrol most of us wouldn't dry them in the oven.
My oven has a volume of about 55 Litres, that's equivalent to about 2.3 moles of gas. The lower explosive limit for toluene in air is about 1.3
percent so, to fill my oven with an explosive mixture you would need 0.013 * 2.3 moles of toluene. That's 2.75 g or 3.1 ml. Rather less than a
teaspoonful.
You can do similar arithmetic and find that a slightly leaky ether bottle will fill a fridge with an explosive mixture. I don't need to do the
maths because I was on the next floor of the lab when it happened and the thermostat sparked.
It went bang. The bang shook the building, this is a purpose-built lab with reinforced concrete floors designed for loadings up to a few tons per
square metre.
The bang opened the fridge door and removed it from the fridge (we never found the locks).
The door traversed the lab and, having traveled a dozen feet or so, it hit a timber cupboard.
It knocked lumps out of the cupboard.
The person who was in the lab at the time no longer works in a lab- she found another job.
Of course, if the door's open you won't get much of an explosion, just a sooty flame that will probably set the sulphur on fire.
Tell me garage chemist, how quickly do you really need to dry the sulphur?
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